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#195935 - 12/19/07 12:25 PM Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Something is so wrong with this picture.


___________________________________________________________________
Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys
Wed, Dec 19, 2007



ST. JOSEPH (AP) A 15-year-old boy convicted of sexually assaulting two younger boys has been sentenced to prison for a term ranging from 23 and three-quarter years to a maximum of 80 years.

Gideon Falcone originally was charged with 17 felony counts. He agreed to plead guilty in Berrien County Trial Court to two counts of criminal sexual conduct in exchange for the other 15 charges being dropped.

Prosecutors say he lured the 11- and 12-year-old boys to his home, barricaded himself in a bedroom with the boys, struck them with a fireplace poker and forced them to perform oral sex on him.

Falcone lived with his grandparents in New Troy because his mother and father are both behind bars.


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#195946 - 12/19/07 02:12 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Hauser]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
whats wrong?


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#195949 - 12/19/07 02:18 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
Let's see: both parents are jailed, and a child is raping children. I gotta wonder what the parents were jailed for.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#195964 - 12/19/07 06:58 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
The details on this case are quite sketchy. This is what I've been able to discern so far. He has a previous rap sheet involving the sexual abuse of a 7 year old, but it is uncertain how long ago this offense occurred.

So what is wrong here?

Okay...let me see. Both of his parents are behind bars for who knows what, and this child was allowed to go live with his grandparents? I'm sorry, but just an outside observation tells me that his grandparents aren't fit to raise children.

This kid slipped through the cracks of a broken judicial system to offend again, and he's still a kid.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#195972 - 12/19/07 08:15 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
Grunty1967b Offline
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Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 825
Loc: Australia
Fast forward ten to twenty years in the lives on these 11 and 12 year old victims. Will they be saying, gee it was sad that a 15 year old boy got punished for what he did? I think theyll have their own life problems to try and deal with as a result of being sexually abused by one who had power and authority over them.

If Im detecting sympathy for the perp in this thread, then Im afraid to say that sympathy is not coming from me. Who will stand in the gap for the victims? I will.


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#196003 - 12/20/07 08:26 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Grunty1967b]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i think we get a picture in our head when somebody says 15 year old but i have known 15 year olds that were 6'3 200lbs . it's true he had screwed up parents but so did many of us right? no sympathy here either


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#196007 - 12/20/07 09:09 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Grunty1967b]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Grunty1967b
If Im detecting sympathy for the perp in this thread, then Im afraid to say that sympathy is not coming from me. Who will stand in the gap for the victims? I will.


Why can't we stand up for both? We can't really stop abuse if we only look at one side of the siltation -- and if all we feel is vengeance.

You can have sympathy for the victim and still be understanding about the perp, in my opinion. It's not black and white.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196012 - 12/20/07 09:53 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Guys,

My own view on this - and it's only my opinion - is that the problem of child abuse is only trivialized and mocked when lawmakers, juries and the public look at it in simplistic terms - as if this 15-year-old, for example, is an "abuser" in the same sense that a serial pedophile who has got through 200 boys is an abuser.

So far as compassion is concerned, yep, my heart is full of compassion for this kid. It's not likely that he just decided one day to force those two boys (and others) to go down on him. He's probably re-enacting things he himself has experienced, and surely something big is wrong if both his parents have been banged away in jail. Any T with experience in CSA issues will tell us that abused teenagers are often tempted to take it to younger kids for a variety of psychological reasons. The distorted thinking that leads them to do this is the same reasoning that leads other boys to drugs, prostitution and suicide, while others somehow make it through without succumbing to any of this.

But at the end of the day it's common sense, not compassion, that ought to get the authorities to look more closely at these cases. This kid, for example, has been condemned to at least 23 years in prison, so now what? Will he get the offense-specific therapy and other help he needs? Not likely - he will probably get raped himself while in prison. And what about his education; will he be able to finish that? Nope. Instead he will get introduced to the criminal ways of others. So when he emerges from prison at the age of 38 he's likely to be a bitter hardened sociopath. How has that solved anything?

It's not that I am "soft" on perps or opposed to a robust approach to CSA. But we need to be aware that emotional responses to the problem will never solve it. It may slake our thirst for vengeance to have murderers executed, for example, but studies show that capital punishment has never served to reduce the rate of violent crime anywhere. In the same way, measures taken against perpetrators of sexual crimes in the legal systems and courts are often irrelevant to the issue and do nothing to reduce the rate of CSA in a community.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#196015 - 12/20/07 10:08 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: roadrunner]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Agreed 100% Larry. \:\) Well said. My thoughts exactly. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196058 - 12/20/07 02:12 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
Stephen_5 Offline
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Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
The fifteen year old boy who abused me was, I think, abused too. I remember vividly being at his home one time, he was trying to get me to spend the night after we'd been playing outside. While we were playing he had gotten me alone again and, well, he did what he usually did. His grandparents lived there too. When we got back to his house, his grandfather gave me a look that chilled me to the bone, he looked at me like I was a piece of meat and he was a starving man. I told him that I had to call my mom to ask for permission. I did everything that I could to infer that I didn't want to spend the night there. He and his grandfather were standing right there by the phone, I couldn't just say that I didn't want to stay there, I was always taught to be polite. My mom, who was probably wanting to go out drinking, just wanted me out of the way. I ended up just pretending that my mom said no and I walked home in the dark. My mom never asked why I came home. Nobody ever asked anything.

I don't have to forgive the guy that abused me but I do understand a bit of his history. He had a choice to continue his 'family tradition' or not, he chose to abuse me. I don't know if he went on to abuse others. I have forgiven myself for not telling anyone, for being driven all of my life to make up for all of my self percieved inadequacies. If there had been more openness about CSA maybe I would have said something, but this was the fifties in a small southwestern town, so I kept silent and the abuse went on until his family moved away suddenly.

I'm rambling, but that's what I was thinking when I read this. That teenager needs help, not incarceration for 23 years. He has to accept responsibility for his actions, realize how he has hurt those younger boys, and hopefully heal himself. This is the time to stop the cycle of abuse. When he gets out of prison I think that he will be a much worse threat than when he went in.

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#196059 - 12/20/07 02:15 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I am really with Larry on this. No one has made any sense when they have tried to tell me how punishing a perp has ever helped a victim. I have compassion for all people, and I truly believe that all babies are born innocent. Something happens along the way that turns them into monsters, and if we truly want to protect our kids, we will learn to have at least enough compassion for these "monsters" to learn how to cure them. If we are incapable of doing that, then we will never stop child abuse.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#196089 - 12/20/07 06:36 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I think the problem here is that the kid is a juvenile and is being sentenced as an adult. Juvenile justice, at least for the last 30 years, recognizes, for the most part, that adolescents don't think like adults and juvenile courts were set up to go for rehabilitation rather than punishment.

We are missing a lot of important information. Maybe the kid is 6'3". Maybe he had been previously in sex offender treatment and washed out. Maybe there were some sadistic and heinous aspects of the crime that were not reported in the brief article.

My hope here is not about debating the merits of this sentence with so much information is missing. As someone who has been involved with the treatment of juvenile sexual abusers for a long time, I would expect there to be some extremely sadistic behaviors on the part of this kid, as well as treatment failure for previous offenses to warrant such a sentence. This kind of sentence is really extreme. Even adults who commit murder don't get this kind of treatment.

Main thing is that the vast majority of youth who commit sexual offenses remain offense-free for the rest of their lives. That is documented by a good deal of research in this field.

Ken


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#196095 - 12/20/07 09:09 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
dancr6 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
I see that the problem is a judicial system that has to make laws that have a definite line that cannot be crossed. Situational ethics would take into account what was going on to interfer with the 15 year olds thought patterns. My own experience with a boy my age wasn't thought of as right or wrong it was just done, we never talked about it or acted indifferent towards each other it was just done. Taught by a perp, no doubt
but not given any value, positive or negative. A compassionate system, and I am aware of the flaws in expecting that to come about, would have seen the flags go up on the boy long before the line was crossed and the regimented arm of the law took over. The lost boy has just been pushed farther down the tunnel and for all practical purposes, his life is over; his perp won by law.
I also have compassion for his victims, what I am saying is that if our system had the right focus it would watch for symptoms in children in our schools, churches, community clubs, etc. and nudge these damaged members of the human herd into a protective environment.
But that's idealism and the fact is that we will have to watch as our brothers are misunderstood, make poor decisions and pay with their lives without us being able to help them. At other times we will catch the situation in time and help to save another brother from the destructive life that is in his path.
Getting this topic out into mainstream conversation is a must. Not for the sensationalism of it, which I think in the long run does more damage by desensitizing people toward CSA, but as a serious community problem to be solved by think tanks with good community communication links.

Lovingly,
Dan

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#196097 - 12/20/07 09:22 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
When I see a story of a 15-year-old getting a sentence that's 150% of how long he's already been on earth, my suspicion is that there's local passion and even hysteria in play. Judges are, after all, political officials.

It's like legislators who rage in public about the horrors of child abuse, and then, instead of implementing meaningful programs that can actually do something about the problem, simply pass a law, for example, forbidding pedophiles from living close to schools - as if the problem is lurking strangers. But it's been known for a long time now that more than 90% of abused kids are molested by people they know, and the vast majority of these are abused in their own homes. So perp strangers moving close by have little to do with the problem, and the law restricting where abusers can live only serves to drive them into isolated areas far from places where they can get access to therapists and treatment programs.

My own feeling is this, and here comes the cynicism: If lawmakers want to implement a real program it has to be researched, planned, vetted, implemented, budgeted, staffed, with all kinds of infrastructure - in other words it will cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. It's far cheaper and faster to "legislate" against the problem and leave it at that, even if the new law simply becomes a part of the problem rather than facilitating a solution.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#196101 - 12/20/07 09:39 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: roadrunner]
dancr6 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
Larry, sounds as if you have been thinking about this topic for some time. I believe you are right on target. Legislators can get re-elected if they move on "sensational" topics acting more out of demagoguery than what will better affect future generations. Any hopeful thoughts on how to put some steam into reform?
Lovingly,
Dan

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

Top
#196102 - 12/20/07 10:15 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: dancr6]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
At age 16-17 I was involved in a crime with my older brother and a guy that I was staying with at the time. They were both older, in their 20s, the charges were felony, conspiracy to commit a felony, and breaking & entering at night.
They both got 6mo. probation. I was tried as an adult 1 year probation and a permanent felony record. They got on with their lives after 6 months and their records clean. Me I still have a rap sheet for that and it damn near ruined my life. I was a follower and made bad choices and was treated like a master criminal. This stopped me from getting back in school, limited my job potential, and severely handicapped any hope for a future in the good ol USA.
It was 17 years ago when finally I was able to take my GED, then about 1995 I learned how to be a computer tech. through a correspondence school in a TV ad. Then I had to work my ass off just to get my foot in the door.
Yes this is a rant and if the people in our court system were not so f@#$%d up I might have had a better chance. Instead I paid for a crime most of my life. I was never put in counseling, had a T or a psychiatrist. I was tested for 1/2 a day and results I was severely depressed and have an IQ of 135.
WTF is wrong with this picture? No positive action was ever taken!

I don't like the fact a 15 yo was even capable of such crimes and there does need to be something done. But prison? He will either die or become even more warped and demented than he is now.
This is a rough topic guys.... sorry I went off, the court system stuff really pisses me off!!!!!!!!

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m__m__
|| || || || || || |

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#196106 - 12/20/07 11:04 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: GateKPR4]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
This kid, for example, has been condemned to at least 23 years Will he get the offense-specific therapy and other help he needs? Not likely - he will probably get raped himself . And what about his education; will he be able to finish that? Nope. Instead he will get introduced to the criminal ways of others. So when he emerges from his prison at the age of 38 he's likely to be a bitter hardened survivor. How has that solved anything? this could describe the lives of half the guys here! ,if the kid finally realizes what the problem is at 38,lots of survivors are a lot older before they even try to heal, 23 years seems harsh when the kid did nothing. the victim gets a life sentence ,no chance of parole . no rehab ,just a hearty hey kid get over it.


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#196107 - 12/20/07 11:05 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: GateKPR4]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Just to put it out there, the opposite in Canada. I'm watching a story about a Father who abused his daughter (a toddler) on-line. He got five years, after giving double credit for time served he will in total serve 22 months. Fucking sickening.

Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#196125 - 12/21/07 03:15 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
The other side of this case is if this kid, which he is a kid, is left alone how many other boys will end up abused? Sure there are better ways of handling it, but its true we have a flawed system with limited options where you can only charge perps with what is in the book, and this may be the best and safest option to do the most good. This way might give many many boys a chance to survive childhood without sexual abuse they woudlve otherwise received. I would much rather see ten boys not abused than one abuser not go to jail, whether he was made an abuser or not.


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#196131 - 12/21/07 05:51 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: bocaj]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
True bocaj, he is still a perp and many boys will probably be spared from the horrors we ourselves went through. In that light I agree something needs to be done. I don't know the whole story just what I have read here. Still leaves the question what made him the way he is, and can he be treated?

Its horrible that this kid has turned into what he has. Could be the damage is done, the aggressive nature of his crimes are very disturbing.

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m__m__
|| || || || || || |

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#196140 - 12/21/07 09:10 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: GateKPR4]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Bocaj:
This is not a matter of only two choices-- 23 years in jail or walk free.

Let's assume this kid is a sadistic, program failed repeat offender. (He could also be less than this extreme). There are secure (locked) programs that provide sex offense-specific treatment throughout the country. Every state, including Michigan (where I believe the story originates) has a variety of specialized programs for juveniles that should be able to accomodate him.

So even if he is the "worst of the worse", he should be given a shot at rehabilitation, in my opinion, which is also based on experience in working with juvenile sex offenders in a cariety of settings, from outpatient, community based, to residential treatment, and max secure (for juveniles) based in correctional facilities. As I said before, research shows that treatment works for these kids at a very high success rate so it is not about just locking him up or letting him go and abuse more kids.
Ken


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#196142 - 12/21/07 09:11 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: GateKPR4]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
bocaj:

Everyone sees that side of the issue. Yes, incarcerating him will protect children while he is incarcerated, but the fact is, incarcerating him just because it makes us feel better to give him "justice" does nothing more than perpetuate abuse.

All of us are on the same side here. We all want to protect children. My view is that by locking up perps and forgetting about them, by punishing them with knee-jerk reactions that are nothing more than hell-bent excuses for revenge, we are doing more to endanger children then we are doing to protect them.

And while we're at it, we need to do away with sex offender registries.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196153 - 12/21/07 09:32 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Bryan,

I am not trying to start anything here just wondering what your thought behind getting ride of the sex offender registries is? I personaly don't think they work the way they were intended too. They give access to personal information about people that I do not believe should be out there. But thats my thoughts on it. Just wondered what yours were.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#196164 - 12/21/07 11:22 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Steve - I can understand the pressure of those two standing by the phone listening to your every word. My sons and I had a system we devised with a code word. When they felt peer pressure to do something or go somewhere they didn't feel was right, they would tell the guys, "I have to get permission from my dad." During the phone call, my sons would repeat the word REALLY three times; such as,"Dad, I really, really really want to go with the guys!" No matter how angry they got at me on the phone, my answer was always "NO!" I would pick them up or they'd drive home. This system stopped a lot of potential problems. Teens are so suseptable to peer pressure.

I'm glad you had the strength and foresight to get out of a tight spot!!

Howard

PS: This was sent to the previous page in response to Steve V's post. Sorry! When I read the previous posts before this - I was really confused!!



Edited by ScottyTodd (12/21/07 11:25 AM)
_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#196171 - 12/21/07 01:18 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: ScottyTodd]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
My first point against the registries is that they don't do any good, and that would be enough of a reason for me to abolish them. They create a false sense of security while promoting mass hysteria. Think about it for a second. Most of these violent criminals that the registry is in place for...how many of them actually abuse children in their own neighborhoods?

Meanwhile, cities and states are allowed to pass laws restricting where registered sex offenders can live, and rental properties can decide not to rent to a person because of sex offender status. This means that in the town in which I live, there are very few places for a registered sex offender to live. This creats slums and urban decay, but there is a more important aspect to consider.

There are currently, to my knowledge, three convicted sex offenders in my city who are homeless for no other reason than that they cannot find an affordable place to live. A feeling of hopelessness tends to be a primary cause of why people tend to act out, and these people who are homeless because they are on the sex offender registry scare me more than anything at this point in time.

However, if we were going to take this a step further, can you imagine having to live your life with the stigmatism of being on such a registry? If I had spent my time in prison, and then was forced to face this kind of scrutiny upon my release, I can guarantee to you that I would do everything in my power to get myself put back in prison. To me, being in prison is preferrable to living in a society that views me as a monster.

My honest belief is that the sex offender registries do more to harm our children than they do to protect them.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196177 - 12/21/07 02:14 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: BJK
...can you imagine having to live your life with the stigmatism of being on such a registry?


I see what you are saying Bryan...I really do...but I also see another "life-sentence" in these crimes. I mean, here I am, a mess, 30+ years later! So the perps have a hard time finding residence, jobs etc.

I have a hard time finding peace, self acceptance, and keeping jobs. Let's not forget that there's a wife and 2 children who live with the residual effects of a 30+ yo crime spree of those perps as well.

Yeah, the registry may be stupid in that it does not do seem to do much other than help politicians' posture. But the scales of justice are still not standing even when you examine the survivor's life sentence.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#196182 - 12/21/07 03:20 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Still]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I know what you're saying, Rob, but I don't see how comparing the turmoil that a perp endures to the turmoil a victim endures is even relevant. The goal is to protect children, not to enact revenge.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#196184 - 12/21/07 03:34 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: BJK
The goal is to protect children, not to enact revenge.


Agreed! If people really want to protect children, we need to educate kids to avoid, fight and report any attempted or actual SA. We need to remove the social taboos, fears and judgements that these perps count on to maintain the victim's silence.

But yeah...the registry is a joke. Since when has any political body done anything well?

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#196194 - 12/21/07 06:03 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: BJK
To me, being in prison is preferrable to living in a society that views me as a monster.


I can assure you that prison is no vacation for sex offenders. It's not just 3 squares a day, and a comfy bed. They are the sh*t of the sh*t in there, and if people find out what you're in for -- especially if it's a young child vs. say, a teen, that was your offense, they will let you have it with all they have. Violent rapes, physical violence, possibly worse. Murderers and regular rapists are viewed in higher regard to other inmates.

I've spoken with a lot of recovering offenders, and all say they NEVER wanna go back.

It's almost a fate worse than death, I've heard.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196200 - 12/21/07 06:49 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
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Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005

It's almost a fate worse than death, I've heard.


Then death is what my choice would be, and to contemplate what a person is capable of when his own life ceases to matter is frightening indeed.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196203 - 12/21/07 07:05 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
DanM Offline
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Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 540
Loc: So. California
Larry and Steve,

I agree with both of you, a 15 year old who sexually abuses another chld is in crisis and in need of help, not prison time. The idea to abuse other children didn't just jump into his head out of no where. I would suspect that he was also abused,thus making him a victim of CSA at some point. I think this was just a feel good measure by the judical system and politicians. I really believe there are very few people who give a damn about either the abused or the abuser. People only become interested when it is their child or a family member.

With warm regards,

Dan


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#196220 - 12/21/07 11:46 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: BJK
My first point against the registries is that they don't do any good, and that would be enough of a reason for me to abolish them. They create a false sense of security...


Exactly Brian. When you stop to consider that 90 + % of all children who are sexually abused are abused by a family member, pastor, teacher, or other trusted individual who is not likely to be on a sex offender registry in the first place.

Secondly, what ends up happening to those pedo's placed on the sex offender registry is they find there is virtually no place they are allowed to live once they register and end up homeless or in the substandard housing, have a very difficult time finding and keeping a job, etc. These conditions lead to depression which in turn leads to acting out which in turn leads to recidivism or repeat offense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being sympathetic to them by any stretch, but when we want to talk about this I think we need to present the unintended consequences of this course of action. Surely we as a society can come up with something better than this.

_________________________
Lifes journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting Holy ____! What a ride! ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#196221 - 12/21/07 11:56 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: WalkingSouth]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
We mustn't forget the perps' families. Many are married and have kids of their own (who may well be the victim in the first place). Those people are also effected by laws meant only for the offender. So if the victim is in the family, they get a double whammy. Sexual abuse then ridicule at school and harassment in the community. Many wives are forced to live inside those laws, too, or divorce their husbands -- whom they may still love.

How is it legal that people -- not convicted -- suffer the same punishment vicariously. One shouldn't have to choose between a home and a husband.

I recently read a story about a registered sex offender in Tennessee. After using the registry to find him, two men targeted his house and set it on fire, parking their truck on a nearby hill to watch the inferno. The intended target was of course the man, who was arrested for possessing child pornography, served his time, and was renting a place with his wife and kids.

The man was unharmed. The wife died in the blaze.

Stories like that scream to me that something else needs to be done. But to say that insights feelings that you're "sticking up" for perps from a lot of people.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196222 - 12/22/07 01:49 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
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lets say that he gets what some think is a fair punishment , maybe 5 years with intensive therapy,total cost ? a million ?when did society ever spend a million dollars on your healing? if you work not only did he perp you but your taxes pay for his therapy. but maybe you can't afford therapy on your wages. his family has to go on welfare because he's an outcast now ,your taxes again . he learns to act over the five years he convinces them he's ok now ,gets out and moves into a neighborhood ,with no registry in effect ,perps the kid next door ,what if the kids parents had seen his name on the registry? now he's back in prison living off your taxes again . i think we are doing our part to help them don't you? the perp made the decision to act i refuse to feel guilty about what happens to him .


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#196228 - 12/22/07 07:32 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
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I feel guilty about the kid next door that this fictional perp is much more likely to abuse once he gets out of prison if we lock him up and forget about him for five years.

If I was a parent, I wouldn't just "let" my child hang out with my adult next door neighbor if he had done jail time for any reason.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196229 - 12/22/07 07:56 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Luckily we can't incarcerate people on "what ifs." \:\)

What if someone accused you of "perping?" You'd sure want people to think about it then, I bet. What if you were found guilty? What if, what if what if? \:\)

I think it's sad that we are willing to lock someone up--a human being--for a quarter of their life rather than "pay more taxes" on treatment. God bless America, AND the Big Dollar.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196241 - 12/22/07 09:40 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
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I have to go back to Rob's last post.

I couldn't agree with you more, Rob. The two most important aspects to consider when trying to stop childhood sexual abuse are making sure our children are educated AND making sure that those who offend don't offend again.

A case in point here lies in a recent political conversation I had with two longtime friends who are now parents. One is an ultra-conservative, and the other is a slightly right-wing moderate. Both of them objected to Barrack Obama as a political candidate because he is in favor of starting sex education in kindergarden. My response was simple. Wait a second here. I gave them some well-cited references and material to expose the dangers of childhood sexual abuse to children aged 5 and younger, and their reaction was not pleasant even with such facts in their face. The neo-con was adamant. "My children will learn about sex from me, dammit, and five years old is too young." The moderate was slightly swayed in the regards that he is willing to leat the schools teach about "good-touch/bad-touch", but he had a hard time with allowing strangers to teach his kids about sex even if it is age appropriate.

My point was completely lost on them. The fact that most childhood sexual abuse occurs within the home was something they simply could not comprehend. The problem, as I see it, is that too many parents are simply not fit to be parents. How can we rely on parents to teach their kids about sex in an appropriate way when most of the victims of childhood sexual abuse are perped by their parents?

We need kids to disclose at a young age if they are sexually abused so we can get them treatment before they have 20 years of their life to reprogram. We need kids to know what sexual abuse is so that they can disclose.

Just for the record, this conversation did have a positive outcome. About two months later, my moderate friend sent me an email thanking me for the information I gave him. His daughter, now 4 years old, had asked him THE question about two months after this conversation had happened. Instead of just sweeping it under the rug like his instincts told him to, he had a long conversation with his wife about how to discuss the "birds and the bees" with their daughter. The three of them sat down and had a "family talk". Afterwards, my friend confided in me that he felt so good about that talk which was so difficult to have, he was hoping it would be the first of many.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196243 - 12/22/07 09:47 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
BJK Offline
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Another point to consider in all of this is the fact that it is so easy to just say "they get what they deserve" when it comes to contemplating the punishments of abusers. It is so easy to just say "it's not my problem".

The problem is...it is your problem. It is a problem that affects all of us. The fact is, if perps don't get help, they abuse again, and again, and again, and again.

I have to say it again and again...the severity of what was done to me has no correlation whatsoever to what should happen to my perp. The important thing is to do everything in our power to make sure that the perp does not abuse again. Sure, we can lock them all up for the rest of their lives, but I'm pretty certain that, if we look at just dollars and cents, it is much cheaper to give them five years of extensive treatment. No, the cost of locking a perp up for 5 years with extensive treatment is not a million dollars more than just locking him up for five years and forgetting about him. I'd be surprised if the cost differential for such treatment is even in the six figures.

So I have to ask, is protecting a child from being sexually abused worth $100,000 in tax payer money? My answer is quite simple. Hell yes.

Getting perps treatment isn't about giving them more than we can afford to give ourselves. It's all about protecting children.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196246 - 12/22/07 09:56 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Yes educating our children is vitally important. When mine where little we (my wife and I) made sure they understood the difference's between good touch, bad touch. We made sure they knew the proper names of body parts. We made they understood that no one not even mom or dad had a right to touch them "there" or have them touch someone else "there". And that "if" someone did they should tell and keep telling till someone made it stop. We didn't relize just how important this would turn out till my daughter was 4. At which time a neighbor boy of 18 touched her "there". She then came right home and told her mom about this. We called the police right away and then took her to the police station to be "interviewed". The officer who talked to her was kind, gental, and very supportive of the fact she was trying to get information from a 4 y/o child. Because my dauther knew the proper names for body parts she was able to tell the officer EXCITLY where she was touched and where and when it happened. Because of this taped interview he was arrested, and pled guilty to touching her and sent to treatment.

So yes EDUCATION is the key to this. Not just edcuating the general public but the children. After all they are ones who are being targeted by perps not the adults. It always meakes me think of them news storys you see where they warn older people to be careful there is this scam or that scam going on targeting them out of there money. We will broadcast on the evening news a warning about this. But when it comes to teaching our children how to be safe and to understand this might happen just seems the general public has blinders on and has the "not my child, not in my home" way of thinking. Sad really

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#196247 - 12/22/07 10:02 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: James_dup1]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
is protecting a child from being sexually abused worth $100,000 in tax payer money?


I add my answer to this HELL YES!!!!!!

Quote:
Getting perps treatment isn't about giving them more than we can afford to give ourselves. It's all about protecting children


I ageee. I wonder what the stats are on how many vic's just ONE perp will have in there life time left untreated. "IF" we can intervin and help the perp NOT re-offend..or even take that first step by useing org's like Stop It Now that Ken talked about how much is it worth? How much is the life of just one of your children worth? How much do we spend to bring back a moon rock to put under glass in DC? How much do we spend protecting the future of this world? Just one child is worth 10X's what is being spent.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#196248 - 12/22/07 10:03 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Very interesting discussion guys.

Bryan? MOST perps are the parents of the victim? Are you SURE about this? Perhaps we could defer to Mr. Singer's experienced opinion on this matter?

Ignorance of the problem was what doomed me to my dysfunctional life. Had an early-grade teacher taught me about sexual abuse and what I should do about it, since my parents were too ignorant, I probably would not know any of you guys. I would have turned out ok. But now, I have to unlearn 30 years of "reprogramming" as Bryan put it.


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#196252 - 12/22/07 10:35 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Hauser]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
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Does anyone know of a website that does age-appropriate SA protection education for kids. If there's not on out there, there ought to be one.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#196253 - 12/22/07 10:38 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Still]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
WOW Robbie that may be a direction the BOD would like to take. You should email the edcation committee and ask them. We might be able to put togehter an packet type thing for use in educating parents on how to talk to there kids about this subject. Cool idea man

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#196254 - 12/22/07 10:56 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Hauser]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
The adjective "most" was a poor choice by me based on speculation of incomplete data. The fact is that the highest number of perpetrators are a victim's parents, and I've seen this number range anywhere from 25% to 55% on different surveys and studies I've perused. A "plurality" would have been a better adjective to use. Even so, it is my belief that since a person is much less likely to disclose abuse if it was commited by a parent, and since we only have data based on abuse that has been disclosed, that most cases of childhood sexual abuse are indeed committed by the parents of the victim.

However, most sites like rainn.org, foothillsalliance.org, jimhopper.com, prevent-abuse-now.com, stopitnow.org, and the like all seem to be in agreement that 70% or more of all reported childhood sexual abuse cases are committed by an immediate family member.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196281 - 12/22/07 02:57 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
This is cross posted from my blog, which I posted this a while ago -- I think it relates to this topic of strangers vs. parents. Citations are available upon request. \:\)

***

A couple of years ago (2002), we had an "epidemic" in this country. It was quickly labeled by the media as "The Summer of Abductions." From watching the news, one got the impression that kids were being snatched constantly and that nowhere was safe for children anymore. There's just one problem with that. The child-abduction rate in 2002 was at an all-time low. That's right, the "summer of abductions" actually had less abductions than in previous years. The simple fact is that the media blew everything way out of proportion to hike up ratings. The media in this country knows full well that any story involving children in peril will get instant attention.

Everyone knows how dangerous it is for kids out in the world, right? Everyone knows that strangers can't be trusted, right? This is so sad. It's sad because what "everyone knows" is wrong. According to all the recorded facts and statistics, it seems that children are actually safer with strangers than they are with their own parents! Let's take a look at some of the facts:

According to the U.S. Dept. of Justice statistics on violent crimes (1973 - 2002), the rate of kidnappings perpetrated by strangers is 0.0017 percent for every 1,000 children. In real-world numbers, this means that out of every 1,000 children who get kidnapped, only 1 or 2 of them are taken by strangers.

According to another study done by the U.S. Dept. of Justice, of the roughly 69,000 kidnappings that occurred in 1999 only 115 of them were abductions by strangers.

But wait, there's more!

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, in the year 2000, the following occurred:

255 children died from flu or pnumonia.
452 children died from heart disease
1,921 children committed suicide
11,560 children died from accidental injuries

So, what does all that mean in relation to the topic at hand? Let me break it down for you. When compared to the actual statistics for stranger abductions, a little simple math shows us.

Children are twice as likely to die of the flu than be kidnapped by a stranger
Children are 4 times more likely to die of heart disease than be kidnapped by a stranger
Children are 17 times more likely to commit suicide than be kidnapped by a stranger
Children are 100 times more likely to die because of an accidental death than be kidnapped by a stranger

Let's compare the odds of getting abducted by a stranger to some other things.

The odds of dying in a plane crash are 1 in 310,000. The odds of being abducted by a stranger? 1 in 610,000. The odds of being struck by lightening are 1 in 240,000. A child is 2 and a half times more likely to get hit by lightening than to get taken by a stranger. But, when was the last time the news made a big deal out of child getting struck dead by lightening? Apparently, it happens more than twice as often, yet we never hear about it. Hmmm.. I wonder why.

Now, at this point you may be asking yourself a question: If strangers aren't the ones snatching children in the middle of the night, then who else could be doing it? For that, let's look at some more dry boring statistics.

Of those 69,000 abductions that occurred in 1999, about 82 percent of them were perpetrated by family members and 11.3 percent by friends of the family (or other adults that the child knew well).

It seems that the strangers aren't the real danger after all. It's looking pretty clear to me that the real danger to children comes from within the walls of their own homes, not from any mysterious sicko on the outside. Children are in the most danger from the own families. I'm not exactly shocked by this revelation. I only wish the media had the guts to tell the truth for once so that other people could see the light too.

Don't think that this only applies to kidnapping cases. Oh no, strangers are also notorious for molesting kids too. Everybody knows that you can't just trust a stranger with your child. Oh really?

According to yet another report from the Dept. of Justice, of the sexual offenses committed against children in 2000, 34.2% of the perpetrators were family members and 58.7% were friends of the family (or other adults the children knew well). In the age range for sex-related crime victims of 6 to 11 year olds, only 4.7% of their molesters were strangers and in the age range of 0 to 5 years of age, only 3.1% of the perpetrators were strangers.

Nope, I'm not finished yet...

In a report compiled by Child Help USA it was discovered that the leading types of child abuse in the United States for the year 2001 were neglect (which makes up about 59% of child abuse) and physical abuse (which make up 19% of abuse to kids). The most disgusting thing that can be learned from this report has to be the fact that 81% of abusers were the child's parents!

The fact that more people don't know about this is pathetic! Thanks to our wonderful media (heavy on the sarcasm there), most Americans have this delusional image that children aren't safe from strangers anywhere and that all those poor parents must be so worried, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is that all those "poor parents" out there are the ones abusing their kids in the first place!

This "stranger danger" stuff has got to stop! Our children are hurt by it and they suffer more with each passing day because of it! The general public must learn that parents and other family members are the ones doing most of the abuse. There is no tangible danger from the average unknown person (stranger). The facts show that most strangers wouldn't hurt your child, but rather, it is your child's other relatives as well as any adult friends he/she may have that are the most danger to them. Well, actually, it's you the parent who are the most danger to them, but I assume that if you're reading this and you abuse your kids then you already know that you're the one hurting them and not any strangers, so I hardly need to point that out.

Educate people. Make sure that everyone knows these astonishing (and well-hidden) facts. Get the word out there and maybe it can make a difference!

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196286 - 12/22/07 03:26 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Awesome post, Andy.

I must point out one thing, though. I'm always skeptical about the department of Justice's statistics simply because they only report on actual convictions. When fewer than 20% of all reported sexual abuse cases end up in a conviction, and who knows how many sexual abuse incidents go unreported, it leads me to believe that their statistics, though staggering, are still quite conservative.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196290 - 12/22/07 04:03 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Oh, I wanted to point out a website that is dedicated to Victim/Offender Healing and positive law enforcement; promoting restorative justice rather than retributive justice.

Here is there mission statement taken from their website:

SOSEN Mission Statement
S.O.S.E.N.
Sex Offender Support & Education Network

Our mission is to advocate for positive sex offender policies and programs that include accountability, fair sentencing, and supportive community reintegration strategies. We support the rights of former offenders and their families to live peaceful, productive lives free from changing restrictions and public humiliation, discrimination, and violence.

We aim to educate the public and debunk the myths propagated by uninformed lawmakers and the media through presenting factual evidence regarding sex offenders, recidivism, and public safety.

We work to correct policies that have been proven unsuccessful and costly while contributing to failure for former offenders trying to succeed in life. These egregious strategies and perceptions yield nothing but ignorance, intolerance, and more legislation that is ineffectual.

The SOSEN network endeavors to promote positive policy, programs, and incentives that are proven to work through the Restorative Justice method.

We engage in ongoing opinion activities and research in a collaborative environment with other organizations and individuals striving to make a difference in the rebuilding of individual lives and families.

**

You can read more of their mission statement on their website by clicking "read more" under that.

http://www.sosen.us

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196401 - 12/23/07 12:08 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: AndyJB2005]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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I don't know what the percentage is regarding the relationship of the perpetrator to the victim as far as how many are parents. There are a lot of step-parents and boyfriends of the mother (or aunts or babysitters) who abuse kids in the home.

The key figure of that 90% number is that the children are related or acquainted with the abusers. So, the common focus of stranger danger is missing the point, particularly in creating or perpetuating a false sense of security. Because the topic is so non-emotionally charged and difficult to deal with , people assume that if all the CAUGHT perpetrators are online for easy look up, the parents can breathe easier that they know who presents a risk to the child.

Since so many faces are on the registries, if the parent just shows the faces to the child of the neighbors, those outside of the neighborhood can still present a risk, and what about Uncle Harry who visits at the holidays? Taking a fear-based approach ("Watch out for this person, that person, etc.") is just generating suspicion and worry for children. This is not about empowerment, it is about making the child scared.

It is a lot easier to demonize the known abusers (who in reality with supervision and treatment pose very little risk compared to those not yet caught) than to focus on child directed prevention strategies, as well as those aimed at adults in the child's life who are doing grooming or setting up behaviors (Stop It Now!'s focus).

And the cost of treatment, whether in the community or in prison, is still cheaper than lengthy prison sentences. Prevention is cheaper still.

Ken


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#196408 - 12/23/07 02:18 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
it seems unfair how much focus is placed on helping the abuser,yes we should educate the kids ,but where are all the resources for the survivor? where i live there are no groups ,no state or fedral programs ,it's at least 100 miles to the nearest therapist that does sa,your choices are the womens help center or the suicide hotline ! very little risk is too much risk to me . should convicted offenders be able to just disappear into society if they are released? if nothing else the regestry at least makes them aware that they are not invisible. in another thread a man got 170 years sentence and everyone says good,seems like it can't be both ways . how is the hornbeck case any different? this perp beat those kids, forced them to do stuff. but his sentence is extreme?


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#196415 - 12/23/07 03:02 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
We're not saying that there shouldn't be better resources for survivors. To the contrary, that is yet another place where our society needs to step up.

The biggest difference between the Hornbeck case and this case is that this case is dealing with a juvenile while the Hornbeck case is dealing with an adult. Yeah, I feel 170 years is a little extreme, but at the same time, that man kidnapped Shawn Hornbeck for a period of three years and crossed state lines with his victim.

You say very little risk is too much risk while I say that treating sex offedners like animals heightens the risk. Again....can't have it both ways.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196430 - 12/23/07 05:09 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
LandOfShadow Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
This issue is just so huge. Parts I'm kind of wrestling with (and rambling on about...) are:

Forgiving my abusers (who were 40+ y.o. adults): In the sense I don't want to be consumed by anger and forever see myself as a victim which is often true. Also, I have some insight into the experience of a perpetrator I think. There was a time when I couldn't imagine boundaries or defending myself from unwanted sexual interest by others. I just responded by shutting down in terror, dissociating, expecting more victimization... and I got it. That is a terrifying world! My own sexual feelings were terrifying! Without a clear sense I could choose responsibly to act or not, it felt truly dangerous to others. And children awaken powerful emotions in me. I so fear they will be hurt. I so want to protect them. Or be a child again. It's not a sexual interest, I've never been remotely inappropriate even, but I have (the memory really) all that confusion about closeness, caring, etc. being sexualized, so I do kind of sometimes fear myself around kids. It's weird. I know I could NEVER hurt a child like that. I'd sooner stab myself in the heart! But have to sometimes work at feeling .vs. thinking/knowing I/others are safe.

Does anyone understand this?

So I think the perpetrators are similar but act out their fears by perpetrating. Sometimes. I know there are lots of other types and situations.

Back to forgiving, I wonder about what happened in my perpetrators' lives that they did this to me. Part of me wants to just kill them now and think about it later (though they are surely long dead), and part knows we may have some common ground, as scary as that is to say. I absolutely NO WAY do I excuse their choices, but I know there are no simple solutions here. And this kid was only 15???? Jeez. He didn't even get a chance to make a choice as a adult.

I saw a web site, http://www.childmolestationprevention.org, that made a powerful point. CSA is like a disease. People get it, and spread it. And were treating the effects (the victims) but ignoring the cause (the development of perpetrators). Weve got to learn to identify early people who are at risk of perpetrating. We cant condemn them, stigmatize them and drive them into hiding. They havent hurt anyone yet. So lets REALLY encourage them to seek help before they offend. Lets treat them. Id say, lets make it absolutely free for the asking. Promote it so everyone knows. Applaud their responsible behavior. The savings in missed victimizations would be huge. Treat victims and deal with actual perpetrators too of course but I think wed all agree, by then, its too late.

How bout that? Ken, what do you think?




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#196447 - 12/23/07 08:01 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: LandOfShadow]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
how do we define at risk? is every survivor an at risk person due to past abuse? don't want to go down that road. i guess the way the system works the best way for me to get help is to go out and commit a crime ,then blame it on the fact that i never got help for the abuse i suffered as a child. yeah the system is screwed ,but it's screwd in favor of the wrong people


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#196458 - 12/23/07 08:40 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: evanesence
is every survivor an at risk person due to past abuse?


Yes.

Every survivor needs help.

A very small minority are at risk of abusing kids. Many are at risk of other things, like suicide, drug abuse, contracting STD's, underage pregnancy, etc. The list goes on and on.

It is my belief that every child who is abused and grows up without getting help is a flaw on the system.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196459 - 12/23/07 08:42 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: LandOfShadow]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
Treat victims and deal with actual perpetrators too of course but I think wed all agree, by then, its too late.


You made an awesome post, but I disagree with this last line. We don't have enough tax revenue to imprison all sex offenders for the rest of their lives. Most of them are going to get out of prison some day. Therefore, we cannot assume it is ever too late to treat them, for if they don't get treatment while in prison, they pose a huge risk once they get out of prison.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196460 - 12/23/07 08:49 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i disagree with the last line in your response, flaw on the system? they pose a huge risk with or without treatment,if i'm considered at risk ,then c'mon a convicted perp would sure be more at risk than me! this implies that we are flawed because of our abuse,but everybody says we are not,it don't define us. is survivor becomming a dirty word?


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#196464 - 12/23/07 09:09 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Whoah...I think you really misinterpreted my post, evanesence. What I am saying is that I believe every child who is abused deserves treatment. With that in mind, your last response makes absolutely no sense at all.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196470 - 12/23/07 09:52 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
It is my belief that every child who is abused and grows up without getting help is a flaw on the system. it doesn't say deserves treatment,it says we are all flaws on the system. i'm just trying to make sense of what i read,maybe i misunderstood ,maybe you chose the wrong words to make your point. but we do agree that something needs to be done ,so thats ok with me.


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#196471 - 12/23/07 09:56 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Ahhh..I see. The key point of my statement was "and grows up without getting help". The lack of help is, in my eyes, a flaw on the system.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196483 - 12/24/07 12:25 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: BJK]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
BJK,

By "...but I think wed all agree, by then, its too late."

I just mean that it's too late to prevent a child being abused. Certainly I think sex offenders should be offered treatment options and victims too of course. But it be so much better if this could be prevented.

As far as who's at risk, I think the web site assumes this is a large research question in psychology that's going to develop over time.

And for promotion, that too seems like a difficult problem to get people to come forward and not get labeled a molester or something. I could imagine it being "packaged" very carefully in a positive light, but it seems most difficult.


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#196500 - 12/24/07 09:39 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: LandOfShadow]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I, and a number of people have been saying for years, that we need primary, secondary and tertiary prevention. Who wouldn't agree that prevention is better than cure?

Primary prevention is preventing the abuse before it occurs. This happens by educating children to be aware and assertive about their rights to be free of unwanted touch. Most abusers will back off from an assertive child. Although some will be forceful, way many more children are abused who say nothing (this is not a victim blaming statement, only an observation from research and many years of working with victims, survivors, and perpetrators.)

Secondary prevention is to help those who have already been victimized from becoming abusers themselves, or abusing themselves through self-defeating/destructive behaviors. Again, not saying that victims invaribly become abusers, but some do. Anything we can do to help them from hurting themselves or others counts as secondary prevention. And yes, it is unfortunate that there are not more funds and resources for survivors.

Tertiary prevention is about helping those who have abused others from abusing more people. If an abuser might hurt a number of people over the years, doesn't it make sense to treat him so he doesn't abuse more people? Unfortunately, we don't know how many abusers are not identified and continue to abuse. Those who are caught and either go to jail or are subject to ever escalating restrictions and conditions are far less likely to continue abusing than those who are not identified and caught.

When I hear of politicians who try to outdo each other to make examples of sex offenders and punish them with more restrictive laws, I wonder where does it becomes counterproductive. Will the majority of victims report abuse by a family member or acquaintance when they know that the person will get a mandatory 25 year to life sentence under Jessica's Law? Or will the victim remain silent? How many abusers will consider eliminating the only witness to their crime rather than face almost certain prison time?

Moving the discussion from the emotional arena to looking at the facts and determining what makes sense is better policy than reacting with pure outrage.

I'm glad to see that people here can disagree without resorting to namecalling or hysteria. It is a complex problem and everyone here has a personal experience with the subject. Thanks for being thoughtful on this difficult subject.

Ken


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#196526 - 12/24/07 11:50 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
Primary prevention is preventing the abuse before it occurs. This happens by educating children to be aware and assertive about their rights to be free of unwanted touch. Most abusers will back off from an assertive child. Although some will be forceful, way many more children are abused who say nothing (this is not a victim blaming statement, only an observation from research and many years of working with victims, survivors, and perpetrators.)


This would have saved me.


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#197206 - 12/30/07 06:11 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: evanesence]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: evanesence
in another thread a man got 170 years sentence and everyone says good,seems like it can't be both ways . how is the hornbeck case any different? this perp beat those kids, forced them to do stuff. but his sentence is extreme?


The first big difference is that in that other case the facts are by now well known; in this one, all we know is that the boy did some terrible things - the background and broader context is entirely missing.

In that other case the perpetrator was an adult; in this one the perp is himself a boy and therefore not accountable for his actions (it looks like the court decided to try him as an adult, but who knows).

In that other case an adult planned and executed two kidnappings, took the boys away from their families and allowed those families to wonder if they were dead, and did so in order to reduce the boys to sexual slavery. For one boy that slavery lasted for 4 years. The 15-year-old threatened two younger boys and made them give him oral sex, apparently on one occasion, though yes, there were other offenses for which charges were dropped.

The 170-year sentence is a tactic to ensure he gets life imprisonment. That is, he will never live long enough to serve enough percentage of his time to be considered for parole. Some jurisdictions have laws on the books imposing a mandatory life sentence without possibility of parole for extreme cases of rape and sexual abuse (raping a child under 14, for example). Perhaps the sentence was set to achieve a similar result.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#200246 - 01/19/08 04:23 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Stephen_5]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I agree, he doesn't need a life sentence, he needs help.
Nobody wants to know why? These kids do these things, and there may be significant family issues regarding this case.

I am in no way condoning what he did, but the law just casts these kids away into the unknown, and he will get little help with his problems.
ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#200423 - 01/20/08 06:56 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: reality2k4]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
I have been reading this thread and have to agree this kid was a victim in many ways himself and there is no justice for anyone here in this tragis story. The news links I found don't give a detailed history but the perp's father is in prison and his mother is in jail. There are a lot of missing facts but to me it is clear, incarceration will only prepetuate his behavior and anger. This was mishandled from the get go and the kid fell through the cracks. I am not justifying his hideous behaviors at all. This is tragic at age 15 no matter what his size. I am adding 2 news links through Google if anyone wants to view them.
http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/10799371.html
http://www.wndu.com/localnews/headlines/12626076.html

There is a lot we don't know here and it is outrageous that he was not helped after what seems to be a previous incident.

Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#200428 - 01/20/08 07:16 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: reality2k4]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Ste, I think that's part of the strategy. A case like this demands that the authorities "do something". If you crucify a kid who's ease to hate, that's it; you have what you need for quotes and sound bytes. On the other hand, an effective program is an investment of time, energy, personnel and funds for years and years, not to mention the hassle of setting it up.

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#200450 - 01/20/08 11:03 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: roadrunner]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Larry, I agree but we are in America here. This is land of stupid policy and archaic leaders. The only thing authorities do here is create fear rather than use common sense and compassion. Brains were outlawed around the time of Ronald Regan.

Peace,
Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#348348 - 12/16/10 11:12 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: Hauser]
SAD Offline


Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 1


I'm not shocked.He's guilty but after years at the hands of a teacher doing he same to him what else was to be expected?His teacher had a history of 'playing' with young boys-the RV district did nothing except to move him to another school.He did the same there confronted except move the teacher to another school and tell him to leave his classrom door open but he didn't.He closed the doors and showed movies in the dark while holding 3rd and 4th grade boys on his lap.When the law finally cornered the teacher he was a coward-he killed himself.Unfortunately other boys hurt were left with NO way to get justice,counseling or legal satisfaction.This 1 kid broke down and filled the role of his mentor.Who's REALLY to blame?He's paying for the teachers crime.Shame on RV Middle school (Three Oaks-MI- was where he was at).They KNEW what this teacher creep did,still doing and this kid and the poor boys he hurt are paying the price.Teacjhers knew, adults reported the behavior as did children...all was ignored. This was a sad lonely boy who was otherwise polite and eager to learn. He was perfect fodder for the teacher to 'take under his wing'. What happened was swept under the rug when he committed suicide so no kids got the counseling needed from the school or state since the perp. was dead by his own hand. I do not admonish him for his crimes but as a lonely young man whose only male role model was a molester what else could he cling to? I tried again and again to get this stopped but the small town police force and school board did not want to hear it... This kid needs help...he HAS a problem but one that was created by a trusted adult while his parents sat in prison/jail. Who is the real person that deserves the blame?????????
Imagine your son in prison with adult thugs-I'm sure he's learning all sorts of new tricks.What did this arrest solve


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#348400 - 12/17/10 06:42 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: SAD]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5947
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Originally Posted By: SAD

I tried again and again to get this stopped but the small town police force and school board did not want to hear it... This kid needs help...he HAS a problem but one that was created by a trusted adult while his parents sat in prison/jail. Who is the real person that deserves the blame?????????


Thank you SAD, for being the lone voice that stood up against the terror this young boy suffered at the hands of the molester. The victims are countless, and every child that went to his class or school should receive counseling.

That you stood up for the rights and safety of these children, that you were "unpopular", that makes my heart glad. You did the right thing. Thank you.

Sam

_________________________
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#348463 - 12/18/10 03:24 PM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: SamV]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
This is a problem. Clearly we have to understand that certain things were done to the boy that absent those actions, his own crimes would never have happened. BUT, one of the myths that we fight as survivors is the vampire myth, that once bitten you are condemned to be a vampire yourself. It is true that having been involved in adult child sex, many are condemned to distorted thinking that causes us to contemplate and fantasize about doing the same to others. However, myself and most other victims are able to refrain from acting out.

The average child molester has 107 victims over a lifetime. Given the consequences, whether sex related, drug/addiction related or relation/anger related crimes, most of the victims are eventually put in jail. Thus I say either jail one perp now or 1 hundred of his victims later. Had the teacher been jailed, we would not be discussing this case. Had this boy who then chose to victimize others not been jailed, there would be further victims. I would argue for the 80 years.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#348492 - 12/19/10 08:07 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: catfish86]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
He is a teen that did very adult things. Sure I can understand when a child has gone through a troublesome past, including csa but it doesn't justify what they have done especially something as horrific as this case.

Lets not forget these facts:

Quote:
Prosecutors say he lured the 11- and 12-year-old boys to his home, barricaded himself in a bedroom with the boys, struck them with a fireplace poker and forced them to perform oral sex on him.

What he did was much more than sexual abuse. There were origionally 17 felony charges against him.

You talk about what he will have to go through now in an adult prision? What about these two boys who will probably never be the same for what was done to them???

Plus there is more to the case than the article listed, as Ken Singer LCSW stated:

Quote:
I think the problem here is that the kid is a juvenile and is being sentenced as an adult. Juvenile justice, at least for the last 30 years, recognizes, for the most part, that adolescents don't think like adults and juvenile courts were set up to go for rehabilitation rather than punishment.

We are missing a lot of important information. Maybe the kid is 6'3". Maybe he had been previously in sex offender treatment and washed out. Maybe there were some sadistic and heinous aspects of the crime that were not reported in the brief article.

My hope here is not about debating the merits of this sentence with so much information is missing. As someone who has been involved with the treatment of juvenile sexual abusers for a long time, I would expect there to be some extremely sadistic behaviors on the part of this kid, as well as treatment failure for previous offenses to warrant such a sentence. This kind of sentence is really extreme. Even adults who commit murder don't get this kind of treatment.

I am sorry, but this teen does not sound like a sad lonely child! He used physical force to abuse these two children and not only that but barricaded them in!

Sure he was a victim at some point, but so many are and don't repeat these patterns, especially in this way! Once he crossed the line, he is no longer a victim in my eyes. He made a choice.

Many people who commit crimes have had a rough upbringing but that doesn't take away from the seriousness of their actions. You can't just erase away all the bad, just because of persons history. Children of certain age can be tried as adults if the crime is serious enough, obviously the evidence and case was strong enough to prosecute him as an adult!

Personally, I can't have any sympathy for him. Sure others are to blame as well, including his parents, grandparents, and the school district as well but he is the one that gets the blame for HIS actions.

The only person clear of blame are the real victims in this case and that being the two boys he so violently abused!

I can't focus on the injustices of the sexual perpatrators even when they are children themselves but the injustices of those vicitims who do not repeat it!

Quote:
The "Vampire Syndrome" that is, boys who are sexually abused, like the victims of Count Dracula, go on to "bite" or sexually abuse others.

This myth is especially dangerous because it can create a terrible stigma for the child, that he is destined to become an offender. Boys might be treated as potential perpetrators rather than victims who need help. While it is true that most perpetrators have histories of sexual abuse, it is NOT true that most victims go on to become perpetrators. Research by Jane Gilgun, Judith Becker and John Hunter found a primary difference between perpetrators who were sexually abused and sexually abused males who never perpetrated: non-perpetrators told about the abuse, and were believed and supported by significant people in their lives. Again, the majority of victims do not go on to become adolescent or adult perpetrators; and those who do perpetrate in adolescence usually don't perpetrate as adults if they get help when they are young.

And as Ken Singer also pointed out:
Quote:
as well as treatment failure for previous offenses to warrant such a sentence. This kind of sentence is really extreme. Even adults who commit murder don't get this kind of treatment.

It seems very clear based on everything that is known about perps, that there were many more victims before these two boys! They don't just lock up children for no reason!

Those are just my thoughts on the matter!

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348498 - 12/19/10 10:21 AM Re: Boy, 15, gets prison time for molesting boys [Re: diamondheart]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
Derek,

One thing you pointed out as a difference between victims who offend and victims who don't: Victims who told and were BELIEVED AND SUPPORTED by significant others in their life.

What we should take from this that can actually be changed is punishments for those that heard a report and were not supportive. Just a thought, the mandatory reporting laws must be strengthened. This crap about, "the victim wasn't willing to testify" is often, when researched found to be less than true. When we get serious about the enablers is when progress is to be made.

There is also a continuum here. Remember that a favorite trick of an abuser is to involve a victim in the abuse of others. Then the victim has as much to fear from discovery as the abuser. One case is the Shawn Hornbeck/Ben Ownby case. SH was kidnapped at 11 and held under threats/fear until 15, when he was forced to participate in kidnapping BO. SH was left at the apartment to guard BO. Taken to extremes, SH could have been prosecuted. Difference between this case and the SH case, SH was still under the sway of his kidnapper/abuser. This 15yo boy was beyond the immediate control and making independent decisions to perpetrate abuse.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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