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#1942 - 06/10/05 08:10 PM Suggestion to improve MS safety
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
One of the things I really like about how MS is structured is that most of the site is open to folk who have simply registered a valid email address, while at the same time, there are exclusive areas accesible only to those with a paid membership. MS requires membeship payments to be made by credit card, which results in recorded identifying information (name, address, CC number) that can be used to trace anyone whose participation here is fraudulent or even criminal (i.e. perps looking for victims).

My experience on MS thus far tells me that most of the time, the frauds/criminals get found out and dealt with pretty quick, if for no other reason than many of us have a well-honed intuition about who is real and who is a phony (and I confess to having a *very* short fuse in that department).

The real problem with keeping the board free from fakers is how to deal with those folk who *might* be fake, or who might just be having a really hard time breaking thru denial, or for whom English is not their native language, or who have some other totally legitimate reason. Unless I get triggered (which is *my* problem), my approach to such folk is to sit back & listen, and be supportive when I can as long as they do NOT become trouble makers.

Now, to my suggestion.

If a possible phony becomes a trouble maker, there are several things that could be done to up the stakes, which would : 1) make it very clear to a legit person that our collective safety requires that they modify their behavior at least a little bit; or 2) would flush out a real phony and then they could be dealt with.

Upping the stakes could be one or more of the following :
1) Require a paid membership
2) Restrict the person to read-only access to MS, meaning they can read, but can't post (in short, a "time out")
3) Restrict access to only certain boards
4) Restrict PM capabilities, perhaps based on the age of the intended recipient of the PM
5) Require their posts to be read by a moderator before allowing them to go up on the boards

I'm sure you guys can come up with other ideas, and the point would be to give the Mods a lot of flexibility. The tricky part would be how to determine that someone should be subjected to this sort of control / monitoring, and how it would be lifted. My thinking is much less clear on this aspect of the issue, other than the need for clear-yet-flexible guidelines in what is, by definition, a really hazy area.

Perhaps a starting point would be to list what makes each of us suspect someone's legitimacy, so we can discuss and separate our own, purely personal triggers from legitimate "red-flag" warnings.

To kick off a list, here are the things that make me go Hmmmmm ....

If a poster has never written about their own pain, their own history and their own recovery.

If a poster gives lots of advice *without* connecting it to their own personal SA experience, as if they'd read it from a book.

If a poster's first posts are on the "Gay Survivors" board and they are promoting (even subtley) that being gay is wrong, a sin, and/or can be "cured", and *especially* if they quote *anything* from the radical religious right about homosexuality. To clarify, I am *not* talking about guys who are afraid of gay men because of their SA, or who are struggling with what their true orientation is; rather, I'm talking about someone who blanket condemns man-on-man sex and/or homosexuality while displaying little understanding of what ALL us survivors, gay, sraight and bi, have had to struggle with to figure out who we really are, in the shadow of the SA we ALL suffered.

=====

A word about being supportive of someone who ultimately turns out to be a fake ...

I can (and do at times, mostly on other internet discussion boards) find that I've poured out energy in support of someone who turns out to be a fake. The sense of betrayal, of being manipulated, of feeling dirty because I've been used, of being a kid again who just didn't know any better - all these hurt like hell. What really helps me heal that hurt is knowing that there are *other* folk who got *real* value from what I wrote in support of the jerk, but who, for whatever reason, remain silent lurkers on the board. And sometime the act of writing a post is very good for me, because it helps me know what I think & feel.


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#1943 - 06/10/05 08:54 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
Soccer Kid Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Missouri


_________________________
~Zach~
Deviant of Many Talents

"Reality is just an illusion."

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#1945 - 06/10/05 09:09 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
ShyBear, there is nothing quite like spending energy on someone who is fake, and believe me, there have been some real good ones here.

There have been instances where things get so out of hand, that Fred Tolson had to personally intervene, but it caused one Hell of a lot of damage, and a lot of guys just said that enough was enough.

It is difficult to keep MS safe, but we each have a duty to keep ourselves safe. The Mods do their best to ensure safety, but it can, and does get breached.

I had a wonderful time at Christmas with a woman posing as all different people, including using a mans name. She triggered a lot of people just with the name she used one time, and this mad book that she wrote, that I would not wipe my back end on.

Trust is always an issue, because we do not trust.
Me, you, and all of us have trust issues, and it is part of our protective makeup.

Intuition, yes, my intuition is finely honed. I dont want it to be that way, but it was learned from the past, and that is also part of trust.

The other thing is though, that I can also get it completely wrong, because we are all different, and we act or express in different ways.
An instance of this, is that I deny myself, that I was hurt, and just think I am whining or looking for attention, but it is wrong that I think this way, but that is also learned from the past.

It is a many edged sword, and I do think that expression is better than repression of hurt, but it is not the same for all of us, and we are all different.

Quote:
Upping the stakes could be one or more of the following :
1) Require to a paid membership
2) Restrict the person to read-only access to MS, meaning they can read, but can't post (in short, a "time out")
3) Restrict access to only certain boards
4) Restrict PM capabilities, perhaps based on the age of the intended recipient of the PM
5) Require their posts to be read by a moderator before allowing them to go up on the boards
If you look what MS is about, then it is there for the healing of men and boys without exclusion.
It has to be free to some extent or it misses the whole point.

Imagine if I was a teen at home and nobody knew of my abuse, then I am not going to ask my parents for a credit card to join, so it would exclude me from a support network.

Read only is not really an option either, because you cannot express something that may be threatening in the present time.

Access to limited boards maybe an option.

Restriction of PMs limits support for the individual so we classify different people, which cannot be right. I am sure the PMs are>
_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#1946 - 06/10/05 09:35 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 129
Loc: earth
i think some of the suggestions here are awesome, but also highly unlikely. and really, even if more info is required in order to join, people can still b.s. their way thru that. we all have trust issues here. i dontknow that there is really a way to please everyone or have a 'filtering' system that will be completely effective. i think the important thing is to be skeptical and open your eyes to the obvious.

Quote:
Originally posted by Soccer Kid:
* Overt interest in sex and/or sexual activities - Many individuals who are only out to get sexual satisfaction will frequently shift the subject to sex, usually if a perpetrator is good and skilled at it, the discussion can change quickly and usually the victim doesn't even realize how fast it changed.

* Age inappropriate behaviour - Many times liars lie about their age. This is the most common lie told on the internet today. Individuals who lie about their age will sometimes display inappropriate age behaviour such as an 8 year old having a vast knowledge of the outside world, knowing travel distances when they are not old enough to drive, watching and/or listening to programs or music that is not sold to minors, an over interest in sex and/or sexual activities, a request for sex and/or sexual activities etc...
[/QB]
the first one, i will not comment on. it speaks for itself and it has becoe apparent to me that this is a big factor in one situation ive encountered here. my eyes are open.

the second one i believe speaks for itself also. as much as i hate too say it, it is completely obvious.

there is so much that can be said on this topic. its just a matter of how much honesty people can handle.

_________________________
pUpPy

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#1947 - 06/10/05 10:18 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RockyMtJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 97
Loc: East of Pueblo, Colorado
As usual interesting stuff. I am a bit naïve on my good days.

I will get around to joining and offer the “Mods” a scholarshipfor some deserving member or two.

I have a sense that a few of the posts are by pedophiles or those with some
diagnosis out the DSM that is not due to CSA.

Guys who post with the childlike writing drive me crazy. I just stopped reading it.
I am sure most are having some regression.

I am very unsettled about folks under say 16 posting. I have no ideas but really support what I read here today. I just wanted to say that.

RockyMtJoe


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#1948 - 06/10/05 10:36 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
Soccer Kid Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Missouri


_________________________
~Zach~
Deviant of Many Talents

"Reality is just an illusion."

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#1949 - 06/11/05 12:33 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
Guys who post with the childlike writing drive me crazy. I just stopped reading it.
I am sure most are having some regression
It might be regression for those that speak English, or maybe just stream of conciousness with their Inner Child doing the talking, but keep in mind that we have several members for whom English is NOT their native tongue, and are either laboring with limited English skills, or are using free online translation, which tends to literalize the result into what we'd think was "childlike".


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#1950 - 06/11/05 12:48 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
English is not my language. But I do not feel I write 'childlike'. Maybe I do and do not know it! My apologies if my way of speaking here will make you suspect me. I been here most year and half now. I think I am someone safe to this site. But I do not expect people who do not know me to trust that. It is ok.

I have another friend, who is newer here this last week, who has used online translater few times, and yes, that results in quite silly things, and not making sense things. But to me, the 'childlike' writing here is been adults who speak English. As I say. Maybe I see it diferent.

There are already rules here for safety. It seems much persons do not follow them. I do not follow them all. There are three moderators here, they know my phone number, I know theres. That is probably fine. But there is also other members here, we have each other's phone number. Is that not against one of the rules? Also, quite a few members here I know personal email address for. Again, against the rules. Some members I have shared pictures with, when I have traveled, including picture of myself. Against the rules.

It is like the rule you can not drive 100miles an hour. It is for your safety, yes, but also for safety of others. If you break that rule, you are knowing there may be negative result to it.

Perhaps the rules already in place need to be honored more. But honest, will they? Most of us here are adult, and make our own choices. If I want to send joke email forwards to Mark and Al, is that such the bad thing? So when we take it on ourself to not follow what is been established, we take the consequence of it on ourself to. I have done that before here, I have suffered in consequence, and I learn from it. I think most persons here have.

If the situation is of protecting the children here, then perhaps enforcement is more needed. Their own forum, restricted to adults? Well then, how do they get adult feedback? Advice from people who have more experience, in healing and just in life? Let under 18 post only in their forum, and only allowed to read in adult forums? I don't know.

I think I do agree with chat restriction, as I think that would be more likely where a predator will attempt. (Sexual predator wanting internet intercourse, I am meaning). Such things have occured there before, I am aware of, and I do not know they have here on message boards. Perhaps a member under 18, there is like 2-hour moderated chat every night or day, then they are restricted? Or, they can not log into chat unless a moderator is in there? I am not sure how softwear works, to do that.

Just is my thoughts. I edited this post to add additional thoughts, not for any darker reason.

Andrei


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#1951 - 06/11/05 02:08 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
dan_in_newengland Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 161
Loc: Mass
ak, your ok and most people feel that. We know your english is not so good, and welcome vn.
it is not about you. but thanks for asking

Dan


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#1952 - 06/11/05 02:54 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RockyMtJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 97
Loc: East of Pueblo, Colorado
Relax guys ;\) (Trigger below in poem)

I can tell the difference. I have extended offers to translate. I am able to speak a bit of Spanish
which common in Southern Colorado, little Croatian
and the family speaks fluent Croatian, Russian and
Italian. I have not used the Japanese and Vietnamese for decades but I was trained in both (Army).

My English skills have bottomed as I get older but
one can tell often what ESLers write (English as a second language) and it is not "childlike".

For My Russian Friends:


Here is perhaps the sadest poem one can find
it screams like an abused child now old.

The Last Toast ANNA AKHMATOVA 1913

The Last Toast

I drink to the ruined house,
To the evil of my life,
To our shared loneliness
And I drink to you--
To the lie of lips that betrayed me,
To the deadly coldness of the eyes,
To the fact that the world is cruel and depraved,
To the fact that God did not save.

Judith Hemschemeyer trans


Последний тост

Я пью за разоренный дом,
За злую жизнь мою,
За одиночество вдвоем,
И за тебя я пью, -
За ложь меня предавших губ,
За мертвый холод глаз,
За то, что мир жесток и груб,
За то, что Бог не спас.


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#1953 - 06/11/05 04:16 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
RockyMtJoe,

thank you for that! \:\) Here is one I like very much, and think fits this site also. Sorry to 'threadjack' off topic!

Our planet
is poorly equipped
for delight.
One must snatch
gladness
from the days that are.
In this life
it's not difficult to die.
To make life
is more difficult by far.

Vladimir Mayakovsky


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#1954 - 06/11/05 12:33 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Soccer Kid:

* Increased number of peers "relating to" or "participating with" another - Many times perpetrators do not register just one nickname. In order to get conversations started and going, many perpetrators will register one name, than another and "interact" with each other to draw others into the conversation. Another reason why perpetrators will do this is because of the fear of being found out. If multiple users are registered, the assumption is that there is no way X amount of people are actually phoney, when in reality it is all the same person.

Although I could see them all being quite valid, this is the one that will get my hairs up most. It is the one that make me most suspicious, and it is the one that catch the last major fraud here last year.

There are many good points made in this thread, both about protecting the under-age members, but also the membership as a whole. I posted a very long one in the Unmoderated forum in that monster thread, and will not repeat everything here.

To the person who mention the possibility of some of the younger members being 'others' of an adult with DID. Hmm. I have DID. And I know that I think twice, (maybe three times) a post would appear here by me that I do not have memory of writing, under a time of stress, which is usually when it is triggered for me. But under my own name. My computer saves my name and password on this site. I am assuming that my 'others', they either are not so computer knowledgable, or they have better things to do then to come here with another name! I do not say this to be flippent, I am just saying, I had never thought that as a possibility before. It is not to say it is not possible, or true, because my knowledge of my own diagnosis is somewhat lacking, due to resistence on my part. So that is interesting theory to me.

There are couple other points I wanted to respond to, that I cannot recall now! (here 2 years, and do not know how to quote multiple posts in my reply, like so many people can do!)

Oh well. Will maybe think of more later.

Leosha

P.S. Edited to add, RockyMtJoe, thank you for the Russian literature! But I think that poem is from later date, 1930? 1935? Something of that time. (Trying to remember back to school age!)

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#1955 - 06/11/05 02:30 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RockyMtJoe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 97
Loc: East of Pueblo, Colorado
THE LAST TOAST I drink to our ruined house, to the dolor of my life, to our loneliness together; and to you I raise my glass, to lying lips that have betrayed us, to dead-cold, pitiless eyes, and to the hard realities: that the world is brutal and coarse, that God in fact has not saved us. Anna Akhmatova 1934, Translated by Stanley Kunitz with Max Hayward

Yes, 1934. That was a dismal time in Russia.

We can argue about the so called "space race"
but Russia is supreme in poetry, poetry is
glued to all Slavic peoples hearts.

Joe

since the USA cannot get anyting up into space
guess that other topic is looking questionable.

;\)


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#1956 - 06/13/05 12:10 AM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Sorry, but parts of this post sound like a thesis!

Red Flags to look for:
Over use of details - The human brain is very forgetful when it comes to actual details. Most police reports given by victims of assault or abuse, unless the victimization happened for an extremely long time, may have problems identifying their perpetrator in a line-up or able to describe them to the police clearly. Too many details such as exact hair colour, facial hair, height, weight etc... are usually the first things to be forgotten. When describing crime scenes many individuals will remember identifiable or foul smells, the presence of blood or tissue but in many instances unless trained professionals, the location and source of these items is rarely remembered. [How does all this apply to MS? Well, when listening to someone's "story" look for things that most people would not remember. This could be smells, times of the month, weather (unless extreme), food eaten etc... While some of these things can be identifiable...like maybe you were always abused after your perpetrator took you out for pizza...etc...but under normal circumstances people do not remember these things]

____________________________________________+

I wrote a 17 page statement of complaint to the police about my abuser and the actions he took that defiled me. It didn't happen over an extensive period of time (compared to some). around three momths that was grooming, abuse and my ending it (details have been posted).

Within the next six months I am facing my abuser in Crown Court - I made my stament on 17th Oct last year (an often repeated fact - it also happens to be a life long friends birthday). I was abused in 1969 - I know it was 1969 and I know that it was from late September onwards. Please do not come here and imply that people can only remember if the abuse was extensive and ongoing. It has done my head in for years and I am dealing with it - I suggest that theories are kept to yourselves.

I remember the food that was eaten, because my abuser initially 'bought my trust' - he would give me money to go to a local store/shop to buy apples/sweets so that I could meet him at a location nearer the quarry. This meant that he was not seen walking with me towards the point of abuse as he walked there ahead of me.

I know that it was always almost dusk. I know what state the wlid flowers/plants were in (my Grandfather used to take me on very long countryside walks from as early as I can remember (he was not my abuser).

Generalisation is a very dangerous thing - I know that I have only picked up on one point here, but I am prepared to challenge it (others may not).

I have a pending court case, because I have almost photographic retention of certain details - I suspect I am not alone here with that ability.

My abuser is still walking around my hometown now - I don't have to remember what he looks like. He is just older and fatter, but wears very similar clothes to what he did in 1969.

Not everyone that was abused was attacked - grooming and abuse can take place over very short time frames. Many victims know there abusers - that makes it very easy to identify them.

Maybe I should write a thesis!

Best wishes ... Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#1957 - 06/13/05 07:40 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RangerJ19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 42
Loc: North Woods
Shybear:

I agree with many of your points.

And I want everyone here to feel safe.

But I have to call you on one thing:

Quote:
If a poster's first posts are on the "Gay Survivors" board and they are promoting (even subtley) that being gay is wrong, a sin, and/or can be "cured", and *especially* if they quote *anything* from the radical religious right about homosexuality.
If MS is about accepting someone without judgment about their religious or sexual identity, then we can't do that.

For the record, I have not posted anything about my religious beliefs about sexuality, and I don't think I've ever posted in the Gay Survivors unit.

But I happen to be a conservative Christian.
I happen to be homosexual.
I happen to have chosen to deal with the conflict between my sexual desires and my religious beliefs by being celibate.
I'm active in the "ex-gay" movement, though I haven't ever, I think, brought it up here.

So you're saying that because my religious beliefs aren't yours, or because I have made a choice about how to handle my sexuality that aren't yours, then I have no place here, that my victimization doesn't count, and I must be a liar and a fake?

I waited for 3 days to get up the courage to even post this 'cause I'm tired of opening up to people and being hated for being a conservative Christian.

And of all the places I don't want to be hurt and rejected, this is one of them. It's too hard for me to open up to people anyway.

So if I'm not welcome because of my sexual practices or my religous faith, then that's fine.

But I'm really sorry to see how shallow "tollerance" goes when it has to be extended to someone who actually believes differently than you.

_________________________
Life is worth living.
'Cause of legal issues and the fact i'm still trying to get better, I don't PM or chat w/ minors.

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#1958 - 06/13/05 09:42 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
RangerJ19 wrote ~ If MS is about accepting someone without judgment about their religious or sexual identity, then we can't do that.
Ranger, you have missed *the* critical word in what I wrote (emphasis added) : "If a poster's FIRST posts are on the "Gay Survivors" board and they are promoting (even subtley) that being gay is wrong, a sin, and/or can be "cured" ..."

Keep in mind that I was talking about what raises my "red flags" as to possible fakes on MS. If a conservative Christian wrote an anti-gay post on the "Gay Survivors" board after posting for a while in the other, more general forums, I would not consider the author a fake. However, if the anti-gay post was among the author's first posts, I would be suspicious. I have far too much experience with such hit-and-run trolls & the havoc they cause on a very popular, highly volatile religious discussion website that I have been active on for almost four years.

Quote:
RangerJ19 wrote ~ So you're saying that because my religious beliefs aren't yours, or because I have made a choice about how to handle my sexuality that aren't yours, then I have no place here, that my victimization doesn't count, and I must be a liar and a fake?
That is most definitely NOT what I'm saying, Ranger - you're projecting those things into what I wrote. An anti-gay conservative Christian DOES have a place here, his victimization DOES count and he DOES deserve support as long as he is a legitimate SA survivor. What I will NOT tolerate is a fake who pretends to be a survivor in order to promote an anti-gay agenda. Such behavior trivializes the pain of ALL male survivors, be they gay, straight, bi, confused; active or celibate; Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist; or what-have-you.


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#1959 - 06/14/05 01:28 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
RangerJ19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 42
Loc: North Woods
Shy,

OK. I can see where I missed your main point.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I was feeling pretty shut down.

Thank you again for taking the time to clarify for me.

_________________________
Life is worth living.
'Cause of legal issues and the fact i'm still trying to get better, I don't PM or chat w/ minors.

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#1960 - 06/15/05 12:54 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
desvelar Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 55
Loc: The Wired
I think that the paid membership is stu[id bersuase I am A kid with no credit card no access to pne legaly but I need help if you had that on there what would I do commit a crime just to get on or just keep the pain goin which leads to alot of other things if you want to keep it wall pay then post on the subscribers area dont skrew the rest of us out that cant pay just because you can.


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#1961 - 06/15/05 09:31 PM Re: Suggestion to improve MS safety
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
I think that the paid membership is stu[id bersuase I am A kid with no credit card no access to pne ...
You missed my point, I said "If a possible phony becomes a trouble maker ..."

Unlike some other members, I totally support allowing kids like you here, my only concern is for your safety.


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