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#193300 - 12/01/07 07:33 AM Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger?)
OneLifeOnly Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 12
Well, I'll quickly get to the story of it all. Whenever I was 6 years old my father dated a woman who had a boy the age of 7. We always had fun going about our childhood activities. But a night in bed, he told me to put my mouth on his genitals then I could go to sleep. And I wasn't very fond of it, but I did it. So then, 10 years after it hit me, cause the boy I seen back in town. And that one occasion seeing him brought it back.

I am now 18, and it still plagues me to this day and strains my mind trying to wonder why it happened? Was it his plan to manipulate me or what? I played the game of 'doctor' you know, exposing yourself and touching with other friends at times, but that never caused me issues. I'm hoping you guys could give me insight on how to respond to this situation. The kid was, well a kid of 7 years old. But I just always ponder what the purpose of it all was and why it happened. Is this situation definitely different than if perhaps he was 12-13, or even an adult?

I spoke with a therapist about it, and I could notice her inexperience with it all. Not really helping me or anything. And driving 40 miles to see her and pay 40 dollars for 30 minutes isn't my cup of tea. Whenever she tells me to just do all the talking, like, I came for you to help me break it all down, but it's asinine when I just speak to myself and she nods her head.

thanks



Edited by OneLifeOnly (12/01/07 07:38 AM)

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#193301 - 12/01/07 07:46 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger?) [Re: OneLifeOnly]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6397
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Just my opinion here. It may not qualify as a typical definition of "being molested." I think it clearly is identifiable as "sexual abuse," in that it was an un-wanted, coerced encounter. Basically, if the incedent bothers you, it was wrong.

Something happened to/with that older boy before then...because 7 year olds just dont think of oral sex out of the blue like that.

I have no input about your therapist, they all work in their own ways.

I'm glad you found this site, sorry you need to be here.

Welcome.

_________________________
Wish You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#193323 - 12/01/07 11:49 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: Still]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Welcome to Male Survivor, my friend, and I hope you will benefit from everything that's going on here. There are plenty of guys your age around here, in case that's important to you.

On your question, I see two sides to the problem. On "was it abuse", I think the primary considerations would be that he did not coerce or manipulate you, and that you were 6 and he was only a year older. There's no way he could have understood that what he wanted you to do was inappropriate, and in fact, as Rob asks, where's a 7-year-old getting such an idea anyway? Probably from what's happening to him.

That kind of case is called "abuse-reactive". That is, he was probably abused himself, and now he's trying to show you the things that happened. As I said, he couldn't have appreciated that passing on the "secret" to you would be wrong and harmful to you. No therapist or authority in the country would blame such a child; their emphasis would instead be on getting him into therapy to help him cope with whatever it was that happened to him.

But that's only one side of the situation, as I said. The other is how you feel about it, and what happened doesn't have to be abuse in a technical legal sense in order for you to have powerful feelings about it and need help dealing with it. I hope you will continue to talk about things here and ask whatever questions you have. It does help to talk.

On your therapist, it sounds like she might be inexperienced with male sexual abuse problems. Next time you see her perhaps you could ask what experience she has and how many cases she has handled. It's your nickel, after all, so why not make sure you are paying for the real thing?

On the other hand, most therapists will take some time to get to know the client and put him at ease before getting into the details of what happened. After all, you have to trust the T and feel safe with her before you can really begin to talk to her.

Have a look here for a good article here on the site on choosing a therapist.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#193347 - 12/01/07 02:39 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: roadrunner]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
I think this is one of those places where the labels are useless, and I'm beginning to see them more and more often.

The most important thing, to me, is your response to the act rather than the act itself. Our responses often get us in more trouble than what happened, because we ask very common, but inappropriate, questions: what does it mean that he did this, or that I responded this way?

If you think about a seven year old's brain, you'll realize there's a lot of figuring out going on, a lot of how do I say this? and how am I supposed to behave? Most of their talking and acting is learning how to talk and act more than it is fully developed communication. So the seven year old says "put your mouth on my penis..." Adults who heard this would take it immediately as a sign that something had happened to the little kid and would hopefully help him out. But unfortunately, he said his piece to another little kid. The other kid, being equally new to the communication game is confused and doesn't know what to do. It makes him uncomfortable, but he does it anyway, no physical harm done, and really no big deal. If you had been able to tell your mom about it right then, the kid might have gotten some help right away and you could have seen in her eyes that it meant nothing about you.

The big deal is in the aftermath thinking, where something so potentially innocuous becomes desperately meaningful. I believe sometimes our response to the abuse is the abuse.

So my thought on this is that you should let go of the other kid by just letting yourself let go of the desire to understand. I doubt there is anything here to understand beyond one troubled little boy acting out inappropriately. Certainly he can't have meant for anything bad to happen to you, because there's no way he could ever have conceived of the kind of pain that this aftermath thinking can cause.

I hope that helps,

Danny


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#193474 - 12/02/07 02:53 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: DannyT]
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
OneLifeOnly - The guys are really very helpful in what they're saying! The most important part of this is how that experience is affecting you. There are several ages when a sexual trauma memory evokes problems needing therapy...17/18/19 year old is one of those ages. If sexually tramatized guys don't address their issues by 17/18/19 [or soon thereafter], they don't address it until 35+ years old after much of their life has suffered prolonged destruction. So very glad you are actively seeking resolution.

Just a suggestion, you may want to write down memories; send it to your therapist so you can address these issues written about at your next session. In any case you may want to voice your feelings

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#193499 - 12/02/07 08:58 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: ScottyTodd]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Howard,
You have made some very good points. Although I went to a T for depression we never addressed my abuse nor did I ever talk about it. I'm now 44 and the years between were a mess to say the least.
Onelife,
I wish you well on your journey. This is a good place to start, it has helped me much in my recovery.
peace
Rick

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m_ô¿ô_m__
|| || || || || || |

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#193509 - 12/02/07 10:24 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: GateKPR4]
fixer Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Central Virginia
Welcome to MS! I have to agree with Roadrunner, that this is an "abuse-reactive" case. But with a qualifier.....

I was abused around age 9 by an older boy (13), and was more or less drawn into it by the appeal of the friendship. I have since lived a life where love, freindship, acceptance, and sexuality are intermingled, to say the least, completely screwed up to be more accurate.

Of all things.....I find my youngest son in the situation you described. He was about 7, and was being "indoctrinated" by another boy around 9, who I later found out was being abused by a couple of teenagers. My rage flared again.....but not at the boy who involved my son, but at the teenagers.

Now for the qualifier.....and where I have had trouble, and hopefully my son will be able to cope, since we dealt with the situation right away.

The problem with what occurred between you and the other boy is that your freindship became sexualized. Regardless of the significance to either of you at the time of this behavior as a sexual act, when you later realize the sexuality of the actions and it becomes associated with the friendship you had with the other boy, it can lead to difficulty in forming healthy interpersonal relationships.

Please take this with a grain of salt (or more), since I'm not a therapist, only a victim...trying to become a survivor. I held my secret for 35 years, and can testify to the effects of that.


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#193744 - 12/04/07 11:01 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: fixer]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: fixer
...and hopefully my son will be able to cope, since we dealt with the situation right away.


What did you do to deal with the situation?

Did you tell your son anything?

Sorry but I'm very interested in knowing how you dealt with it and how your son reacted to you knowing about it.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#193770 - 12/04/07 02:58 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: cbfull]
fixer Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Central Virginia
I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll give the short version. I'm new here, so in a few days, when I can put my thoughts in order, I'll tell my whole story, including this.

Short version: He came to us, and told us, so he already had a sense that what was going on was wrong. My wife and I did the best we could to reassure him that he did nothing wrong, and that it was not his fault. The whole time, I'm reliving my own abuse, so I was really freaked, and couldn't even process it. Hopefully, being young, strong, and intelligent, and getting it off his chest early, and our reassurance that he need not bear the shame of this will allow him to put it away and live on. I have noticed some of the same behaviors I have, though, so I am concerned. Luckily the other kid moved away, so there are no walking reminders nearby.

Apologies to OneLifeOnly, and I'll stick to topic now.


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#193781 - 12/04/07 04:06 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: fixer]
scotia1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Hi Lonelife;

I’d like to add to what some others have said. Yes this experience in your life has obviously effected you. You ask the questions “Was it his plan to manipulate me or what?.” In my opinion, I personally I don’t think it was, simply because he was only 7 years old. When I hear of similar incidents (and there are many) I always think about both children. You and this 7 year old were both very young children and neither could really comprehend what was truly happening. In a way you both were being sexually abused! My guess is that this young boy was being exposed to unacceptable sexual behavior of some sort by an older person (probably an adult), and then was role-playing what he learned from that adult onto you. If we have to place blame it must be placed upon the adult that molested this child, and also on the caregivers of both children. You however have nothing to be ashamed about. You were a 6 year child and did nothing wrong.

Welcome to the site,

scotia


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#195012 - 12/12/07 07:05 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: OneLifeOnly]
OneLifeOnly Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 12
Brothers, thanks for all the replies. What I was able to conjure up from the responses are.

1. I'm still lost.

But I'm starting to see the clearing from the woods. It just comes down to a couple of things I speculated on. If I know it wasn't my fault, and due to my age. Couldn't have changed anything to not make it happen, why do I still think on it so hard? As if I still have not yet found the truth. I guess I question myself on, if he had not been abused, and just seen a magazine or a video of oral sex in it, then took the initiative to act it out with me, would the fault then be on him? I want to know if the whole act was of innocence and should just be condemned from thinking about and it means nothing. Or if there is something underlying and serious here, like it happened for some reason I am just not understanding yet. It's just a hard situation to understand, like I remember playing doctor with my other friends and those never caused us issues. But just how the kid demanded that I do it spontaneously before bed that night. I'd like to understand the meaning behind it all.


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#195022 - 12/12/07 09:15 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: OneLifeOnly]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
One Life;

I just came upon your thread this morning, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I halfway managed my way through work today, and this evening, as I hung christmas lights on my house, I could think of nothing else. Even now, as I contemplate all the possible things I could say to you, tears well up in my eyes.

Why? Because I am that other boy you talked about in your thread. I am the boy who was turned into a sexual predator at the ripe age of 8. I seduced boys my age, or within a year more or less, into active or passive sex acts... whatever I could talk them into. Sometimes, I even introduced them to my 'Teacher'.

Yes, I was a perpetrator, but I was also a victim of CSA. Where else would an 8 year old boy get the idea of sucking another boy's penis or... god, I can't go into those details...

I have denied, disassociated, rationalized, acted out on, and suffered from all the classic symptoms of CSA. I have been the therapy many times, and over the years finally reconciled my own sexual abuse. What I can't reconcile, what I can't forgive myself for, is what I did to those other boys. I didn't know what it would do to them. I thought it was all in good fun. They enjoyed it too. Sure, I knew what we were doing was wrong according to our parents and society, but I didn't understand why so I didn't pay any attention to that. We were doing grown-up stuff and we were getting away with it. It was exciting and fun. Little did I know the price we would pay for it; especially the price I would pay for it.

The experts (?) say that in these cases, don't blame the children, blame the adult that abused one of them. I can agree with part of that; my abuser was ultimately to blame for abusing me, and imparting the knowledge I used to abuse those other boys. BUT, I knew what I was doing was wrong, like smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol, and I did it anyway. Even after my abuse stopped, I had become a bona-fide sexual predator and was always on the hunt for new boys I could seduce. And I KNEW it was wrong, but I did it anyway.

Like I said, I have been through a lot of therapy that showed me that I was not at fault for my own abuse, and I think I have managed to put that behind me. It didn't happen once, with just one person, and it took a lot to convince me that it wasn't my fault. But I still hold an enourmous amount of guilt over my own complicity in abusing those other boys; because no matter what the experts say is the cause, what I did to them was clearly sexual abuse. I cannot begin to tell you how much I regret doing to them as was done unto me...

That being said, I have a comment and a question for you; First, it is obvious in my mind that your abuser was himself a victim of abuse. How else does a 7 year old boy get the idea to do what he did with you. That's exactly how I got the idea to do what I did to those other boys. So, does knowing that your abuser was acting on inappropriate information fed to him at an inappropriate age by an older person, and that he was totally unaware of the effect that this knowledge would have, not only on himself but on you, change your perception of your abuser? Secondly, knowing what you know now, is it possible for you to forgive you abuser for his actions?

The boy that I was most closely involved with, during and after my abuse, comitted suicide about 10 years after I lost contact with him. Each of the others that I have been able to trace have had a hard time with their lives; jail time, multiple divorces, one was homeless last I knew, etc.

I blame myself for each and every one of these boy's/men's failed lives, and it is a terrible burden to bear. I'd like to ask you, if you were one of those boys/men, would you blame me for your CSA and it's afteraffects? In other words, if you knew that your abuser was also a victim of abuse, would you still blame him for abusing you? Or would you, could you, put the blame on the person who started it all, the person who abused the person who abused you?

I hope I'm making some sense here. This is the topic that haunts me, and bringing it to light again stresses me out. I'm afraid that I have had a couple of drinks before writing this, because if I didn't I'd be in tears and couldn't compose a single thought. Still, I fight back the tears, and have to take a break.

IF I was the boy who abused you at age 7, I don't know how I would tell you how sorry I was. I'd try not to make excuses, and I'd definately try not to make lighthearted jokes about it. I KNOW how serious it is, because I have it coming and going; I know the effects my abuse had on me, and I can certainly imagine the effects my subsequent abuse had on you. I don't know how to ask those boys to forgive me, and I don't know how to ask you to forgive your abuser. I'm not even sure we deserve to be forgiven, any more than any other perpetrator. After all, where do we draw the line? In a 40 yr old screws a 10 year old, that is self-evident. But what about a 9 yr old screwing with an 8 yr old? Obviously both are too young for sex. But what about a 15 yr old and a 14 yr old? OMG, it just gets too complicated to imagine.

I'm sorry, now I'm rambling. I just wanted you to know that ther is a possibility that your abuser feels just as bad about what happened to you as you do. Does that make any difference? I think it might. I know that I feel terrible about what I did, and I may never be able to forgive myself for that... I would do almost anything to change that.

I wish you peace and hope you find happiness.

Sincerely yours,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#195033 - 12/12/07 10:24 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: Lazarus]
dancr6 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
If I had known better, I wouldn’t have been so selfish
If I could go back and soothe my unintentional harshness
Please know, I would

When I say “how could I have been rational when I made that choice?”
I am genuine in my concern, still…I made the choice… and we’re here…..
only from this point can I nudge myself to change.

When I tremble at the memory of causing someone pain
Where can I take my remorse?
I can’t change what I did
Asking forgiveness after so many years could be self serving.
Does asking the “Universe” to relay my regret really ease anyone’s pain?
If I scream to the Universe “I’m so sorry, if I had only had a clear picture of the pain I was causing, surely I would have chosen differently” is my scream heard by anyone other than me?
So…. can forgiveness come to me without easing the pain I caused the other person?
What good is forgiveness for my actions without consolation for the recipient?

FLIP IT OVER:

What good does forgiving my trespassers do if I’m still reacting to their trespassing?
They’re gone, I’m here and only in my mind can they receive the benefit of our slates
being wiped clean.

I can’t change future response to the trespass without forgiving myself for reactions I exhibited under the influence of the trespasser:

If, while walking on a path with someone, they started prodding me on with a weapon
I would move quickly and without thought of what lie in the path of escape. I could stumble over something valuable and if it was destroyed, would I be held accountable or would the person attacking me be accountable? The answer seems clearly in my favor, but some would argue differently, saying that we are always free to choose; I could have been more attentive to my chosen escape route, even as the threat of attack was pursuing me, did I fail some cosmic test by running only with the thought of survival? I wonder; how can we be making a clear choice if we are being prodded into our path by threats and inflicted pain? (Especially as a child, with a limited knowledge base of how the world operates)
We can’t be seeing the path clear enough to see what all we will stumble over and therefore we wouldn’t have the information even to make a clear choice as to which way to go. I would say that it isn’t a choice at all, and from this side maybe the only forgiveness necessary is for the recipient to forgive themselves, move on consoling unintentional victims when possible and leaving the attacker to fend for his own sanity.

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#195046 - 12/13/07 01:17 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: Lazarus]
OneLifeOnly Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 12
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
One Life;

That being said, I have a comment and a question for you; First, it is obvious in my mind that your abuser was himself a victim of abuse. How else does a 7 year old boy get the idea to do what he did with you. That's exactly how I got the idea to do what I did to those other boys. So, does knowing that your abuser was acting on inappropriate information fed to him at an inappropriate age by an older person, and that he was totally unaware of the effect that this knowledge would have, not only on himself but on you, change your perception of your abuser? Secondly, knowing what you know now, is it possible for you to forgive you abuser for his actions?


Lazarus, your post opened my eyes more so that I can see it from the other kid's point of view. And this furthers my belief, that when a child is exposed to acts of this nature from a young age, he isn't going to know whether or not it is acceptable in the general sense. What I believe it boils down to, and what matters to me, is whether or not they were doing it with the intention of knowing it was harmful to the other person. Since it happened to you at such a young age, there was no way you could've fathomed the seriousness. Obviously, if an adult is raped, he would not commence raping others. Because he is matured. Since this happened at a mentally immature age for you, no one knowing your history could pin the sole blame on you. And for the kids that grew with the difficult adulthoods, if only they knew you weren't naturally born a predator, and that you were an innocent boy taken advantage of too, I think that that would have helped.

Since a lot of what I'm finding out right now, I really can't comment on anything any farther than this. But this does make me think of an incident back in my childhood, I believe it was proceeding my event that happened. I was down in my basement with a couple friends we were all the age of 6, and I remember we were pretending we were on some dating show we just viewed on TV, anyhow I had my pants down and told another boy to touch my penis because they were the rules that were required to be accepted on our make believe show. And I never thought of this until now. I know I would never have asked my friends to put their mouth on my penis, as I totally disagreed with that whole situation at that time. But this makes me wonder if I somehow abused that kid who touched my penis, and I remember telling my mom later on that day or the following day because I said my friend "..." touched my penis, and she said just tell him not to do it again, I never told her I told the boy to do this, and the boy never really showed any hesitation that would make be believe that this made a problem arise. But I remember her being real calm and not mad at me or the boy, and I haven't revisited that memory since. So the question I ask, would you consider this an act of sexual abuse being passed on or normal experimental play?




Edited by OneLifeOnly (12/13/07 01:19 AM)

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#195072 - 12/13/07 09:25 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: OneLifeOnly]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
i think there is a fine line between "ill show you mine if you show me yours" versus "show me yours so i can suck it because it will feel good." yes both are exploration in a way, but one of them is from the point of view of someone who knows what he is doing. which crosses a line. i dont know if that makes sense. but that being said, it creates a difficult issue when boys who were abuse perp other boys. is the boy responsible? or is his perp responsible? i dont have an answer. im still working it all out for me.


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#195076 - 12/13/07 10:33 AM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: Jarrad]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11046
Loc: Denver, CO
For me, perp #1 was a case of a kid abusing a kid. We were both the same age, and he was the one taking control. Part of me wants to nail him to the wall and make him responsible for his actions, the other part of me thinks he was just a kid who learned what life gave him.

OneLifeOnly, I would say at the very least, it qualifies as a boundary violation, which to me is bad enough.



Edited by FormerTexan (12/13/07 10:38 AM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#195136 - 12/13/07 07:37 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: FormerTexan]
dancr6 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
I must say that at 7 years of age I was not rational enough to make a decision about the consequences of my actions. If I did something damaging it wasn't because I knew it was damaging. I was passing on learned behaviour at best.

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#196300 - 12/22/07 06:54 PM Re: Does this qualify as being molested? (trigger? [Re: dancr6]
OneLifeOnly Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 12
Sometimes, it's like I can know it's not my fault or anything. But for it just doesn't alleviate the strain that I put on my brain thinking over the incident so much. I mean, I ask myself know, why do I even think about it? If none of it is my fault, and this boy was 7 and he didn't know any better either. But still, it's always dwelling on me throughout the day. Is there anything else that needs to be included -for my knowledge- that I do not know not understand. It would make it much easier, if I knew this incident wasn't as serious since it includes two very young kids, in comparison to a teenager or adult, I believe I could start healing quicker.


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