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#193916 - 12/05/07 02:34 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: Hauser]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6429
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
He's now got my vote. Just the fact that the mainstream marginalizes him is enough for me to come off the fense about him. Because, when you marginalize his ideas and ideals, you marginalize a certain population of people whom stand on the same ground as Dr Paul. I'm hoping for a strong showing for him in NH.

One interesting fact: I get polled alot being in NH. When the polsters walk through a list of candidates for options and questions being posed, they almost never mention Ron Paul.

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#193928 - 12/05/07 04:39 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: Still]
melliferal Offline
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Ron Paul is OK if you're anti-war, because he will be able to declare a troop withdrawal. As for the rest of his plans - they're useless. He won't be able to accomplish any of it.

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#193976 - 12/05/07 11:59 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: melliferal]
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:P

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#194132 - 12/06/07 06:19 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: Still]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
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Loc: United States
Hi again Mel.

You seem to appreciate the fact that as President and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, Dr. Paul could order an immediate pullout of U.S. Forces from countries that they now occupy, but in regards to your concerns that he could not get anything else done because of an unwilling congress, those concerns are (to me) unfounded. Perhaps you recall the power of Executive Orders? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders

With an executive order, he could accomplish MANY things to stop the relentless growth of government.

Also, as President, he would have the powerful tool of mass media coverage to communicate to the American people. Imagine, if you will, a scenario, in which the President makes a prime-time White House announcement to the American People that he has co-sponsored a bill to abolish the IRS, but that the bill was voted down by a presumed majority in Congress, (give up power? GASP!) Now, what do you think would happen, if President Paul listed off the names of every single congressman that voted against letting people keep their own damned money? They would wise up and give in, because otherwise they would lose their coveted jobs, if you want to even call them that.

You know what the first thing President Paul should do via Executive Order? Make EVERY Congressman pay into Social Security, just like the rest of us, LOL. In case any of you don't know, Congress has it's own retirement, pension, and medical plans. What's good enough for their citizens isn't good enough for them apparently! \:\)

Hey Mel, this Saturday I'm going to the City Library and hand out Ron Paul informational pamphlets to Library Patrons, you wanna come with and help out? I'll bring a thermos full of hot coffee too!


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#194136 - 12/06/07 06:51 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: Hauser]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
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Ha!

Well, Executive Orders are very powerful things, it's true. However, they do have limits. Things like the Federal Reserve system, the IRS, and the Department of Education were all specifically created by acts of Congress - bills which were passed, and signed by the presidents of the time. Executive Orders do not have the power to overturn acts of Congress - only other passed bills can do that. A new president cannot retroactively veto bills in that fashion.

Also, by becoming President, Ron Paul would lose the ability to introduce and co-sponsor legislation! He can make suggestions, but that's it - the Constitution draws a line between the executive branch and the legislative branch.

This is the only real problem I have with Ron Paul. No Congress would repeal the Federal Reserve Act, not in a hundred years! I'm fairly certain the IRS is safe, too. But Ron Paul talks as if these things WILL happen when he becomes President, when he MUST know they certainly will not. He's setting things up so when he can't accomplish what he promises, he can blame Congress for his failures. I suppose he would be correct in the most technical sense, but that's also not being entirely honest with the public, in my opinion.

Pragmatically speaking, I like what Ron Paul says - lower taxes, and even maybe no taxes, would certainly be lovely. No troops in Iraq sounds fine to me, too. The only idea of Paul's that I take issue with is changing back to the Gold Standard - terrible idea, and I don't think he's really thought that one through as much as his other ideas. But anyways.

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#194147 - 12/06/07 07:47 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: melliferal]
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:P

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#194150 - 12/06/07 08:10 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: Still]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
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Melliferal,

"This is the only real problem I have with Ron Paul. No Congress would repeal the Federal Reserve Act, not in a hundred years!"

Andrew Jackson abolished the central bank of the United States with his power as president. I believe Ron Paul can do likewise. With State of the Union addresses, Ron Paul can speak to the public and educate them on the truth of the Fed and the IRS.

Question: why do you think the gold standard is a bad idea? It would far better for our liberties and property rights if our money was issued debt-free and commodity-based instead of as a liability by a central bank. It worked well for this nation for a very long time.

One of these days, whoever holds ownership of the nine-trillion dollar national debt is going to say "Enough!"

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#194156 - 12/06/07 09:08 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: FormerTexan]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
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Originally Posted By: FormerTexan

Andrew Jackson abolished the central bank of the United States with his power as president. I believe Ron Paul can do likewise. With State of the Union addresses, Ron Paul can speak to the public and educate them on the truth of the Fed and the IRS.


You're referring to the Second Bank of the United States. It was a private bank which held a Congressional charter to serve as the central bank, a charter that had to be renewed in 1932 in order for the bank to continue to function that way. Congress passed a bill to renew it, but Jackson vetoed the renewal - and THAT's how he was able to end that bank. But the Federal Reserve Act contains no such time limits or requisite renewals that require presidential approval.

Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Question: why do you think the gold standard is a bad idea? It would far better for our liberties and property rights if our money was issued debt-free and commodity-based instead of as a liability by a central bank. It worked well for this nation for a very long time.


In theory, there's nothing really wrong with commodity-based money; that's true. Where the Gold Standard fails is where it meets reality: Right now, there exists a total of about two and a half trillion dollars' worth of mined gold on the entire face of the planet. Pretending for a moment that the US government had custody of all of it (which it doesn't), it isn't enough to cover the more than 7 trillion dollars of US currency currently in circulation. There are two ways to reconcile this: firstly, the government could reduce the amount of currency currently in circulation. That would be a neat trick, but it would also be catastrophic; even if we could make the federal government and all its fiscal necessities disappear into a black hole (perhaps by electing Ron Paul), there's absolutely no way the US economy could exist and thrive on two and a half trillion dollars.

The second way to resolve the problem would be by increasing the price of gold versus the US dollar - i.e., suddenly declaring that 2.5 trillion dollars worth of gold is now worth 7 trillion US dollars. Now, all the US's money is backed by gold. The problem with that is, no one else on earth would be changing the price of gold versus their currency. That means the value of the US dollar drops compared to other currencies - by more than 60 percent! The US dollar would no longer be the international standard - it would be replaced perhaps by the Euro, or the Pound, or the Yen. Hell, even the Peso could give us a fair run. Yikes, if you think gas prices are bad now, wait till oil suddenly costs $850USD a barrel.

This is all assuming, again, that the US owns all the gold in the world. It doesn't - the world's gold is scattered all hell to breakfast. No country in the world uses the Gold Standard, because the fact is, no government in the world has ENOUGH gold to back a modern economy. There just isn't enough of it in existence.

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#194158 - 12/06/07 09:21 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: melliferal]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11086
Loc: Denver, CO
Quote:
You're referring to the Second Bank of the United States. It was a private bank which held a Congressional charter to serve as the central bank, a charter that had to be renewed in 1932 in order for the bank to continue to function that way. Congress passed a bill to renew it, but Jackson vetoed the renewal - and THAT's how he was able to end that bank. But the Federal Reserve Act contains no such time limits or requisite renewals that require presidential approval.


According to G. Edward Griffin, Jackson was censured by the Senate for his actions in opposing the central bank, which you correctly mention as The Second Bank of the US. However, the House supported Jackson through a series of resolutions which effectively rendered null the censure of the Senate and called for an investigation via special committee on whether the bank had caused the then-current economic problems. Though the head of the bank was called to be investigated by Congress, the charter was allowed to expire and the central bank became a state bank.

As for there not being enough gold to back the paper, it's mainly because the paper is grossly over inflated. Up until 1913, the price of an ounce of gold was valued at 20 dollars. A dollar was a unit of measurement, such as gallons or inches. Now a dollar is a floating piece of paper, and we cannot stay on that system and expect to survive economically. An ounce of gold now is valued at approximately 800 federal reserve notes because the federal reserve note is grossly overinflated thanks to corrupt practices of central banking. The bank needs to go. I for one am tired of paying trillionaires to be their slave.

The Fedeeral Reserve Act does contain one clause that states "the right to amend alter or repeal this act is expressly reserved." Congress held this one provision over the act.



Edited by FormerTexan (12/06/07 09:25 PM)
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#194160 - 12/06/07 09:36 PM Re: Ron Paul Update [Re: FormerTexan]
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan

As for there not being enough gold to back the paper, it's mainly because the paper is grossly over inflated. Up until 1913, the price of an ounce of gold was valued at 20 dollars. A dollar was a unit of measurement, such as gallons or inches. Now a dollar is a floating piece of paper, and we cannot stay on that system and expect to survive economically. An ounce of gold now is valued at approximately 800 federal reserve notes because the federal reserve note is grossly overinflated thanks to corrupt practices of central banking. The bank needs to go. I for one am tired of paying trillionaires to be their slave.


That may be; but again, you could change the value of the USD versus gold all you want; you could change it back to $20 per troy ounce I suppose. But no matter how much you deflate it, the amount of gold the US has is all it has, and it's not enough to run the economy. That's just domestically. We can trade with everyone because the entire universe is fiat now, and our dollar is stable in the market - but if we go to the Gold Standard, how do we trade with other governments, some of which have no gold at all?

If we're going commodity-based, we need to use a commodity that A) we have enough of, B) we can make MORE of as our economy grows, and C) everybody else has.

For the record, honey is a world market commodity...



Edited by melliferal (12/06/07 09:39 PM)
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