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#191950 - 11/19/07 09:59 PM Christian and Gay?
Liam Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 41
Loc: Currently South Africa
Is there any one on here who is christian and gay. If so i would love to ask some questions. I am coming to terms with who and what i am but i do feel the need to speak to someone about this - other than my therapist who is straight and happy with his lifestyle. I attend church - love God and seek to find some advice from others who still love God - even after they came out. The current church i am in is not supportive and i know how they feel about it. If your out - Your Out of friends, church, family and God. So yes i would much appreciate it. Thanks


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#191983 - 11/20/07 09:20 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Liam]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
i was raised roman catholic. that wasnt really a great environment for someone who is gay. i dont currently go to church on a regular basis. i did find that there are churches that are accepting to gay guys. i found this link that might help. im not sure where you are, but maybe there is a church near you.
http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm

also, might be interesting to look into unitarianism. i have been to a couple of unitarian services and it was actually really embracing. it is more about a healthy spiritual realition with god (and god isn't as defined.) the congregation i was a part of was made up from people from all different religious backgrounds who were not getting what they needed from their current church. and it was really accepting of the gay community.. like for example, one of the speakers was a transgendered male to female. and it wasn't a big deal. the speech wasnt even about that. it was just a non issue.

hope that helps. it is possible to be gay and be religious.


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#191998 - 11/20/07 02:25 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Jarrad]
CarnagedOntology Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 13
Loc: California
Hi Liam - I was raised Protestant and being Gay or Bisexual was not considered to be an "acceptable" lifestyle. During services I felt so out of place and ashamed of my interests. There were sermons completely devoted to homosexuality and how being Gay was the ultimate abomination. I won't go into all the details of how this made me feel, but I am sure you already know from your own personal experience with "the church". Through all this I found that God is the only one that knows what is in MY heart. To me, "religion" is just a nice way of saying, Cult. I do not belong to any type of religion and I refuse to pay respect to the so-called teachings of any pastor, priest, etc that uses God as leverage. It is a sad state of affairs. The "word" is now so distorted to meet ones personal agenda, it turns loving people away that want nothing more then to be accepted as fellow human beings. The human beings that God made in His image.

_________________________
"Living well is the best revenge."

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#192010 - 11/20/07 06:36 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: CarnagedOntology]
buzz_key Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
I believe that our lives and the love we exhibit there is what God desires of us...just as you said CO, only God knows what's in your heart and He will work with you, and me, and anyone else who desires that...
religion sucks cause it is man made and it has been corrupted to the degree that it, in it's organized, legalistic form, does not reflect what God desires of us.



buzz


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#192011 - 11/20/07 06:48 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: buzz_key]
Dale English Offline
Newsletter Founder/Producer
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 448
Loc: PA
Liam,

If you'd like to attend a really wonderful retreat for gay and bi Christian men, go to http://www.kirkridge.org and check out the January weekend coming soon.

Taz


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#192049 - 11/21/07 04:07 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Dale English]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Liam, A year or two ago I came across a bible study done by a gay man, Justin R. Cannon. The study gave him peace of mind, and it may do the same for you. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm
If Justin R. Cannon, is correct it is not homosexual that god condemns.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#192372 - 11/23/07 01:55 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: lostcowboy]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Liam,

Although I am not gay it fills me with rage that gay men are made to feel they are not welcome in any religious community. Since when does any human being get to dictate to another who God does and doesn't love and accept? That strikes me as the ultimate in arrogance and bigotry.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#192516 - 11/24/07 08:50 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: roadrunner]
Nate Offline
Guest

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 94
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
i'm gay and a christian. check out gaychristian.net its been very encouraging to me.

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#193374 - 12/01/07 07:01 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Nate]
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
I will second what Nate said....go to gaychristian.net it really is a good place.


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#194202 - 12/07/07 05:48 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Redsongbird]
ChargerBoy Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I am gay and was raised in the Church of Christ. I know that you may have some conflicting emotions going on, but I personally believe that God made me the way I am for a reason, and if God didn't want there to be gay people in this world he would have not made gay people. We all have a purpose in this world, weither we recognize it at this time or not. He made us all for a reason. I am personally proud to be gay, and I know that God made me just the way he intended me to be.


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#194238 - 12/07/07 11:28 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: ChargerBoy]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Check out this letter from a Mr. Bruce Lowe. Lowe is a minister once staunchly against homosexuality, but through study of the Bible and other materials -- and through his faith -- came to believe God made gay people too.

It's a pretty long read, but it's a great thing, I think.

http://www.godmademegay.com





Edited by AndyJB2005 (12/07/07 11:29 AM)
_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#195548 - 12/16/07 03:29 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Liam]
cat lover Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 89
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Liam:

Like others who have posted, I'm gay and Christian. However, unlike some others, my denomination has been historically gay-positive. I grew up in the United Church of Christ (www.ucc.org), whose general synod passed a resolution in 1985 calling on settings of the church to be "Open and Affirming" of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. (We ordained an African-American in 1792, and a woman in 1854, and a gay man in 1972).

cat lover


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#195619 - 12/17/07 06:30 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: cat lover]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
Liam--what a orginal beautiful name


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#195998 - 12/20/07 03:40 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: ChargerBoy]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
I am a born again christian with a personal relationship with christ. I am sorry for the experiences you men have had witht he body of Christ but the fact is those churches are made up by people, people sin and people hurt other people. The fact is the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin along with drunkenness, idolatry and all the rest. It is equal to all the rest. Just because you sin does not mean God does not love you. God loves gays just as he loves the drunks, murderers, rapists, and all the rest of us humans, cause we are all sinners. Now for Charger boys comment on why would God make gay people if ther shouldnt be gay people. God made mankind, but he gave us free will. We are all a biproduct of our surroundings, and what we grow up around creates our demeanor,behavior, and even sexual preference, not our genes. Your same comment could be applied to why would God make murderers, rapists, diseases and genocide? The fact is Satan runs this world and PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS. That is why we need Jesus in our lives all the more. I cannot tell you what it is like to be gay and be a christian , but the fact is I dont think it matters. I believe we all have gay tendencies of sorts, and the world today is so black or white that if a man has the slightest thought of his guy friend or something he automatically thinks he is guy. I know that is something that men and women will struggle with til the end of time, but just remember God loves you the way you are, but he loves you too much to let you stay the way you are. Always strive to emulate him. When knowledge entered the world, sin entered the world, and it only gets worse and harder. I hope this long message can be received openly.


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#196000 - 12/20/07 08:01 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
bocaj,

I've heard all this before, and I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted By: bocaj
The fact is the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin along with drunkenness, idolatry and all the rest. It is equal to all the rest. Just because you sin does not mean God does not love you. God loves gays just as he loves the drunks, murderers, rapists, and all the rest of us humans, cause we are all sinners.


Thanks for the reminder. We are ALL sinners.

Originally Posted By: bocaj
God loves you the way you are, but he loves you too much to let you stay the way you are.


I doubt that. God doesn't give a shit. He left me here to deal with all this stuff on my own, being gay and also an alcoholic and a survivor. And of the above three sins, (and that's taking your word that these are sins) being gay is the least of them.

The fact is that I relate to men very differently than I relate to women, and it doesn't all have to do with sex. I like men emotionally more than women, and it just so happens that I like sex with men equally well.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your views, but I'm not sure why it's so important to you. If there were an Alcoholics and Survivors forum, would you have made the same argument to the drunks? I humbly suggest that we ask the moderators to move this thread to the Spirituality and Survivors, because your reply is much more about theology than homosexuality.

I have kids, and my foremost responsibility is to them. When I was married to a woman (their mother) we were not the best of family, lots of dischord. Now that I'm 'married' to a man, my teenage twins are doing very well and we have a happy family. I'm proud of that. I'm also proud of the fact that I have been able to stay reasonably good friends with my ex-wife.

I define sin as something that hurts someone or causes some harm. I don't consider my sexuality to be a sin, and I don't see how it could be. The only people who are harmed are people like you, who are not happy unless they are telling other people how to run their lives. It seems that is more your sin (by MY definition) than mine.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196001 - 12/20/07 08:06 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Thanks for this, Andy. It's great research material, and makes a great case on behalf of Tolerance. It's worth repeating the link.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
Check out this letter from a Mr. Bruce Lowe. Lowe is a minister once staunchly against homosexuality, but through study of the Bible and other materials -- and through his faith -- came to believe God made gay people too.

It's a pretty long read, but it's a great thing, I think.

http://www.godmademegay.com



Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196004 - 12/20/07 08:45 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I never understood the need of Christians to denounce homosexuality. It's like their banner flag. "LOOK AT ME, I'M STRAIGHT."

It's almost an obsession to them, finding others who are sinning (in their mind) and letting them know. Why can't they worry about their own lives?

It's sad the church has turned more into a political party than a Jesus-centered body.

I know Bocaj is trying to save me, but ironically it's doing the opposite. Attitudes like his are what made me leave the church. Their stanch, unbendability actually hurts their cause, in my opinion.

My two moms have been together a quarter of a century. You're telling me they're akin to a murderer, and that their relationship is bound to fail? LOL

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196018 - 12/20/07 10:48 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Two comments:

Just as a user here: While I was often abused in a church context and this has left me a spiritual train wreck in some ways, I do still consider myself a Christan and am trying to regain the sense of faith and spiritual peace I see in other guys - including many on this site. Nevertheless, I have to say I see little sense in the selective appeals to the text of the Bible as literal truth that are often used in discussions of homosexuality. It just isn't on to insist that verses such-and-so are God's word and therefore true, while others are quietly ignored because they clearly represent the social ideas of the first century and have no place or use today. Is anyone here prepared to argue that epilepsy is caused by demonic possession, for example?

Now as a moderator: MaleSurvivor is a resource of dialogue, compassion, support, healing, and recovery for men and teens who have been sexually abused. That agenda requires mutual respect and consideration by all users for all other users at all times. We may get a wobble now and then, sure; we're all human, after all. But our facilities are not available as platforms for judging or blaming other users for any reason whatever; we have all had enough of that in our past and if we need more it is available to us in ample measure outside the site.

Specifically, this forum is an arena for gay survivors and others concerned about gay issues to share their ideas, joys, anxieties, triumphs, defeats, and feelings in general about these topics. If a survivor comes here and needs to talk about his homosexual inclinations because those feelings frighten or worry him, he is welcome to do so and to be honest about how he feels. But there is a difference between telling others, "This is my feeling and why it concerns me - what do you think?", and confronting them with, "This is a fact; accept it." The latter approach is dismissive, judgmental and insulting to all of the guys here for whom being gay is a matter of personal identity, and hence cannot contribute to anyone's recovery, at least not in the way we pursue it here.

Please take this consideration into account when posting here, or indeed, anywhere on the site. All of us have a right to ask for the support and understanding we need, and all of us deserve it, just as we are.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#196105 - 12/20/07 10:56 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: roadrunner]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
I am sorry to all who were offended by my comment. That was not my intention. I took this forum for an open discussion on the topic of bein gay and a survivor and the links between the two as causes of one another. The only reason I responded was because most comments on this forum were on the topic of being gay and christian and were bashing other christians and churches. If you look through them my comment was less harsh than most prior to it. I honestly wanted to receive feedback from the people in this forum and have received enough to see that you all are hurt enough to not want input from an outsider. And to lazarus, yes I would say the same and do to all who address the topic with me. The fact is in general I agree with all of you on how gays are treated by christians and that is has become a banner flag in recent times. While I do not agree with the gay lifestyle, or the alcoholic, or sexually promiscuous for that matter, does not mean that I am not guilty of similar sins either and that is not my ultimate goal in this life, that is to condemn those, and for that I am sorry. The fact is we are all on this site for positive help and in expressing our concerns, or histories we expose ourselves to comments from other users, whether were just alike or not. We are all alike here and that is to say we are all survivors, me included. I am looking for healing like the rest of you. I am sorry and will refrain from commenting here any more



Edited by bocaj (12/20/07 10:57 PM)

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#196109 - 12/20/07 11:15 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Bocaj,

I take that as an apology and warmly accept it. No permanent offense taken, and none intended in return. Yes, this thread involves both spirituality and sexuality, and yes, the church has definate pronouncements on both. I'll admit that I am prejudiced against you on the basis of the limited information I have about you; but primarily on the fact that you are prejudiced against me because I call myself 'gay'.

My defination of morality and sin is very similar to almost all of the religious people I know and associate with, but the basis for my definition is different; I believe in a humanistic morality, not a devine one.

So if I may, I'd like to ask you to give me one other example of a sin that does not hurt anyone or anything and does no other harm, other than homosexuality.

Curiously yours,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196113 - 12/21/07 12:47 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
No hard feelings here, either, Bocaj.

A lot of us have had bad experiences with the church and growing up gay in the church. When you have to hide who you are for decades because mom and dad find it an abomination (no matter how 'politely' they find it a sin, i.e. "love the sinner, hate the sin") it grows some resentment inside of you. As you can imagine, survivors have enough to hide and when you add the fact that mom and dad might possibly disown you, it's a lot of pressure.

I hope you can understand our reaction to arguments like yours after a lot of our histories in that respect.

That said...I welcome you here. \:\)

Can someone tell me what the "gay lifestyle" is? Like...dinner parties and a night at the disco? Or what? LOL

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196139 - 12/21/07 09:06 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
Can someone tell me what the "gay lifestyle" is? Like...dinner parties and a night at the disco? Or what? LOL


OK Where the hell is Jarrad when we need him?

LOL

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#196161 - 12/21/07 10:33 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: James_dup1]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I know that if we recruit 5 or more people, we get a microwave oven. Providing they stay gay for 6 months or longer. ;\) LOL

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196195 - 12/21/07 06:14 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
Thank you for the reply. I am in all honesty looking to learn as much as I can from all on this website. In addition I am not looking for conflicts, or enemies but other peer survivors willing to teach and learn. As for other sins that do not harm there there are countless. But again as the church is today people feel they can pick and choose what is sin and what is not, and there are many that are vaguely spoken about in the bible. The fact is sin is not based on harm for others, but primarily in harm of yourself, since christianity is based on your personal relationship with Christ not you relationship with others, although it does involve those other relationships indirectly. There are millions of things I do daily that are by definition sin that do not harm other people. take masturbation, which I know is a questionable one, or speeding, which is breaking the law, which it states in the bible to follow the laws of the land. How about lying, coveting, adultery of the mind, which are all commandments, and therefore I doubt you would argue much that they are sins. All in all my point is I dont want to target you or others for being gay but rather to learn from your views and how you see things, because I do not know. I feel we struggle together in this life, not separately being straight or gay, because our joint struggle is with sin, which we cannot avoid entirely. It bothers me that most guys I know are "homophobes" because I dislike most of them more because they drink and use and abuse woman than I would have problems with a gay person. I know much of my language and statements may come across as offensive but truth is this world is still opening up to the idea of homosexuality and most of us, including me, dont have a clue about it, or what struggles you endure. I know I am rambling now but I hope this reply wasnt pointless.


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#196196 - 12/21/07 06:33 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I can see your point of view, Bocaj. \:\) And I respect your opinion. I disagree, but respect it with all my heart. \:\)

Not being Christian anymore, I don't believe in the Christian concept of sin. So it hard for me to get footing with this discussion past the semantic, because it all kind of doesn't "click" with me to begin with.

But I will try, promise. \:\)

I don't think the WORLD is opening up to the idea of homosexuality, I think the United States, in its antiquated puritanism, is. I think most of the world -- save for the more religious parts, ironically -- could care less.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196271 - 12/22/07 12:40 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
bocaj:

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to be open about homosexuality, but the mere statement "homosexuality is a sin" is offensive to me in the same manner that saying "being Ukrainian is a sin" is. I am not even homosexual, though I am Ukrainian. Comparing homosexuality to alcoholism is also offensive to me. Everyone desires sex, because the sexual urge is something that is instilled within all species. Sex is an instinctive behavior. Alcoholism, however, is a learned behavior. Not everyone desires a drink. I am a recovering alcoholic, and homosexuality is not a sickness that comes even close to comparing to the sickness that I am defeating.

I also take offense to such statements like "masturbation is a sin" as well as "coveting is a sin" (isn't the theory of capitalism based on people coveting the belongings of others?). Quite obviously, this means that I am offended by the Old Testament, which I view to be a hideously intolerant book of persecution and genocide (yes, including the Ten Commandments).

I have no idea what "adultery of the mind" is.

The other sins you mentioned are speeding and lying. When people speed in their automobiles, they are either putting the lives of others at risk or they are putting undue wear and tear on a road that may have only been engineered for drivers to go a certain speed. Lying, on the other hand, is an action that requires some objectivity. There are two kinds of lies. The first one is the lie that is done for no other reason than to save my own butt. If a guy with an AK47 pointed at me asks me if my name is Bryan, I'm going to lie to him to save my life, and I am offended that anoyone would deem that a sin. However, if that same guy says he is going to kill another guy unless my name is Bryan, then the moral and just response would be to tell the truth.

I need reasons for actions to be "sins". I don't abide by rules or laws just because some archaic text tells me to. If a rule is imposed upon me with no moral backing, I will defy that rule vehemently. Dictatorships are formed because people blindly follow their beleifs without proper justification, and there is no worse abuse of authority than to claim one's respective deity deemed an action to be a sin without this proper justification.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (12/22/07 09:40 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196277 - 12/22/07 01:36 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
The first one is the lie that is done for no other reason than to save my own butt. If a guy with an AK47 pointed at me asks me if my name is Bryan, I'm going to lie to him to save my life, and I am offended that anoyone would deem that a sin. However, if that same guy says he is going to kill another guy unless my name is Bryan, then the moral and just response would be to tell the truth.


Awesome \:\) Hmmmmm, wonder why Jesus didn't think of that.

Mike



Edited by mogigo (12/22/07 01:37 PM)
_________________________
Thriving

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#196282 - 12/22/07 03:11 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mogigo]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

-- Buddha

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196356 - 12/23/07 07:49 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mogigo]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
Loc: Denver, CO
Quote:
Awesome \:\) Hmmmmm, wonder why Jesus didn't think of that.


What makes you think he didn't?

If a guy is gonna gun me down with an AK47 in the first place, I doubt it will matter to him what my name is. Might as well tell him my actual name.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#196357 - 12/23/07 07:51 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
Loc: Denver, CO
Quote:
I don't abide by rules or laws just because some archaic text tells me to.


Well, that's the beauty of the power of choice. One has the power to thumb their nose at that "archaic text" if they want to. But I'll tell you what - that "archaic text" has molded more lives than you and I can count together, and has outlasted the test of time. It sure appears to be doing somebody some good.


Quote:
Quite obviously, this means that I am offended by the Old Testament, which I view to be a hideously intolerant book of persecution and genocide (yes, including the Ten Commandments).


Bryan, what exactly is "hideously intolerant" about the commandment "You shall not murder?" I kinda like having a commandment that tells others not to take my life from me. I'm curious as to why you find something as simple as this "offensive." If my life is not someone else's to take, isn't that "moral backing" enough?

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#196367 - 12/23/07 09:15 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
From the book of Exodus:

Quote:
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Moses is telling me here tat my grandkids and great-grandkids are going to suffer because of sins that I commit. It sounds to me like Moses was a cruel dictator who was using fear tactics to control his people. Even so, the most frightening of all of the Commandments is telling me that I do not have the freedom to worship how I see fit. I'm sorry, but if I lived in Moses' times, I would have taken up arms against his oppressive government. These two commandments go against the very fiber of morality that exists within my being, and I find them to be downright offensive in that they are basically telling everyone who does not believe in Moses's deity is to be punished.

Quote:
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


Of course, I kind of believe that the freedom of speech is a good thing, though it does make me quite angry to see people use the word of God to tout a product, a belief, or an ideal (which is the true essense of using the Lord's name in vain anyway). However, I find it kind of ironic, oxymoronic if you will, that these very Ten Commandments that Moses wrote is an example of using the Lord's name in vain.

Quote:

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


In other words, according to Moses, going to buy a carton of eggs on Sunday is just as vile of a sin as murder.

Quote:
20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


I refuse to honor my parents, for they have made my life a living hell.

Quote:
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


I kind of like capitalism.

So, we have six of Moses's commandments that are, in my eyes, a load of crap. Two of these commandments are downright offensive to me. That leaves four commandments that are "good rules to live by", but at the same time, I view these four commandments to be nothing more than common sense. "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not commit adultery", "Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" are all examples of rules that other societies have come up with on their own without the benefit of Moses's Commandments.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196373 - 12/23/07 09:44 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
Loc: Denver, CO
Part of the disagreement I see here is that God it not in the picture. We are not dealing with "Moses' government." We are dealing with laws given by God (humor me for just a bit). As for honoring your parents, believe me when I say I know how tough that one is. I struggle with that one, as do many others. I feel I honor them by avoiding them, thus avoiding any potential conflict between us. When I am in contact with them, I am civil.

As for the Sabbath, I am confused why folks think that is Sunday, since Saturday is the seventh day on my calendar. The Sabbath is a day of rest, whereas Sunday is a day of congregational worship. That may sound nit-picky to some, but it is a legitimate question in my mind. Regarding the eggs, buy them on Friday.

I like capitalism too. Why do you feel that a command to avoid uncontrolled desire over a neighbor's wife and possessions is a slam to capitalism? I can promote my capitalism without having jealousy over someone else. Who cares if Bill Gates made 90 billion bucks? Nevermind there is a reference to a wife. Do you feel it is capitalism to covet a neighbor's wife? I call the neighbor's wife off-limits. I don't see that as a load of crap at all. I wouldn't want to know that my neighbor drooling over my spouse.

I think that this is simply matters of perception. What you call crap, I call God's law, and I don't think God gave us any command that we cannot handle. I also believe we are no longer under old testament law. New testament law is better in that instead of a list of dos and don'ts for actions, we have it where matters of the heart are addressed to where the action is dealt with before it even has a chance to happen. Make the heart right, and the rest of it takes care of itself.





Edited by FormerTexan (12/23/07 09:50 AM)
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#196376 - 12/23/07 09:48 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
Nate Offline
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Loc: Philadelphia, PA
"When knowledge entered the world, sin entered the world, and it only gets worse and harder. "

dear god open your eyes

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"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#196377 - 12/23/07 09:49 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Nate]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
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Whose quote is that, Nate?

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


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#196386 - 12/23/07 10:23 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
What makes you think he didn't?

If a guy is gonna gun me down with an AK47 in the first place, I doubt it will matter to him what my name is. Might as well tell him my actual name.


Sorry FT, I can see my words were a little insensitive, I didn't take Bryan's words literally I took it as an example of how ancient text needs to be revised to today's world.

I've taken the lessons of Christianity to heart but I think it's the literalness of the way people have taken them as a reason for societies not moving forward. I'm a good person and live by the golden rule but I do it because it's right for society, not because I might get some golden reward at the end of my life. Knowing my Daughter will live in a better world when I'm gone is enough reason for me to be a moral person.

Maybe Jesus was saying if we all act like good Christians then the Earth will become heaven.

Mike

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Thriving

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#196387 - 12/23/07 10:31 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mogigo]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
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Mike,

It's all good. I've seen several points of view on this thread that have caught my attention, but it doesn't mean I'm out to crucify anyone (Sorry, I just couldn't resist - lol). Some of them I feel are worthy a good debate, and will challenge some that stand out to me. I appreciate your thoughts.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#196394 - 12/23/07 11:37 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
"Honor thy father and mother"

Why should I honor someone who took a blender to my brain? He didn't honor his little son by raping him -- in fact, quite the opposite -- and I won't honor him just because a Book tells me to honor him. Respect is earned, not given, I think.

About the longevity of Christianity. If it wasn't picked up by the Romans, and then by European countries, it might've died off long ago. If the Church wasn't pretty much the government for 100s of years, would the Bible have stayed in tact? I don't know.

I think for a lot of people in this new generation "just because" isn't enough anymore. Back when people had less options, when other religions were far off ideas in far off lands, the "just because" argument would've worked. But in this digital/educational age when people can access all sorts of religious ideas at their finger tips, people are less willing to be Christian "just because" their parents were -- and they certainly won't believe stuff in the Bible "just because" it in there, and "maybe" God wrote it. People think more logically now, I think, after seeing different options -- and they want hard evidence that relates to them before changing their lives.

Just my two cents.

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Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196404 - 12/23/07 01:09 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
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I don't know if I can continue this debate on a moderated forum without the risk of serious censure. My goal was to illustrate why I view the Bible, and in particular, the Old Testament to be one of the most offensive pieces of literature ever written. It has stood the test of time simply because it is an easy tool for those who desire power to wield against the people who seek to take such power from them. The fact that people still use the mythology of>
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196405 - 12/23/07 01:31 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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I guess there's a reason your mom told you never to talk about religion and politics. LOL

I hope I don't come off as judgmental...I just have strong feelings. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196412 - 12/23/07 02:47 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
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Bryan,

Quote:
All I have to say to God is this: if you want us to follow your silly rules, get your butt down here and tell us yourself.


He already did. ;\)

I think the debate is fine, however I worry that Liam may see this as a departure from his original posting. I think the Unmoderated Forum is a great place to continue the debate, if you would like to do so.

Andy,

I have no problem with people sharing their feelings on a matter. That's why many times you will see me use phrases such as "I think" or "I feel."

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#196413 - 12/23/07 02:58 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Bryan,

Quote:
All I have to say to God is this: if you want us to follow your silly rules, get your butt down here and tell us yourself.


He already did. ;\)



Or so says ONE person. Hmmmmmm.....

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196414 - 12/23/07 03:00 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: BJK
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Bryan,

Quote:
All I have to say to God is this: if you want us to follow your silly rules, get your butt down here and tell us yourself.


He already did. ;\)



Or so says ONE person. Hmmmmmm.....


Actually - several persons. Hmmmmmm..... indeed

\:\)


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#196431 - 12/23/07 05:20 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
Thank you formertexan, I chose not to reply initially to this post because everything on here is supposed to be positive and affirming, and I was afraid what I had to say might not come across that way but great reply. Another thing was Jesus never feared death, and a saved man should not fear death for what that means is spending eternity with God in heaven. Any who that is another debate another forum, another time.


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#196432 - 12/23/07 05:30 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
BJK, you seem to take just about everything offensively related to the bible and christianity but also apparently want everyone to know how much you hate it, which is very offensive to all christians. The way you feel about christianity is pretty close to how most christians feel about being gay, dont you feel that we as christians deserve the same respect and treatment, even if you disagree with all of it as you wish gays to be treated? I think there is a more civilized way of getting your views and points across, if that is what you feel necessary.


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#196437 - 12/23/07 06:12 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
ScottyTodd Offline
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Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
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Just my two cents; however, it is interesting following your discussions. In my training to study the Bible - Old and New - it was more important to understand the context, intent and original languge used in the>
_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#196455 - 12/23/07 08:32 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: ScottyTodd]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
bocaj:

Oh, quite contrary. I have not once condemned Christianity, nor have I condemned any Christians. I have only condemned the Old Testament as an instrument of bigotry, intolerance, and genocide BECAUSE the Old Testament condemns a lot of which I view to be moral and just. That includes homosexuality, masturbation, and my desire to worship, or to not worship, any deity of my choosing. Seriously, how could you possibly consider a statement like "homosexuality is a sin" to not be offensive?

Your "Holy Book" with its archaic mythology declared war on me. I'm simply defending myself.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (12/23/07 08:32 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196461 - 12/23/07 08:51 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
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Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
We can debate this in the Unmoderated forum or in the Spirituality and Survivor's Forum... But not now.

Mark, I apologize in advance.

Lazarus



Edited by Lazarus (12/24/07 08:21 AM)
_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196472 - 12/23/07 10:39 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
well, as I am now majorly triggered by the attacks on my faith, my God, and His Word - I think it's time I just bug off and leave this discussion.

Merry Christmas to you all too.


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#196475 - 12/23/07 11:00 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: MarkK]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
MarkK - If you find specific users are triggering you or are continuously offensive, you can use the "Ignore This User" button after clicking on their user name and viewing their profile. When set, you will only see a message which says "*** You are ignoring this user ***" instead of their actual post. I've found it helps me in not having to see the posts of persons who continually trigger me. Hope this helps. And Merry Christmas to you, too, my friend.

_________________________
Eddie

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#196498 - 12/24/07 08:32 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: EGL]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Guys,

Can we ratchet the temperature down a bit on this one? I think we all have to recognize that others will disagree us fundamentally on many of these issues. So please, let's try to relate to the discussion and each other in a way that allows the other guy to feel he can continue talking about things without being attacked personally.

For example, if you feel strongly about a point, offer your view as your feeling and not as a fact; present it to the other guys as something to think about and solicit their own views in response.

Issues of religion are rough for survivors in so many ways, but it's for exactly that reason that we ought to make a special effort to talk about them. But somehow we have to do that in a way that doesn't devalidate the other guy. If we insist on being categorical about things then we will never learn anything from each other.

Thanks in advance for giving this some thought.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#461698 - 02/28/14 03:21 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: EGL]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3083
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: EGL
If you find specific users are triggering you or are continuously offensive, you can use the "Ignore This User" button after clicking on their user name and viewing their profile. When set, you will only see a message which says "*** You are ignoring this user ***" instead of their actual post. I've found it helps me in not having to see the posts of persons who continually trigger me. Hope this helps.


wow,
this is a very useful tip.
did not know about it until now.


thanks EGL.
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Victor|Victim

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