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#196367 - 12/23/07 09:15 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
From the book of Exodus:

Quote:
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Moses is telling me here tat my grandkids and great-grandkids are going to suffer because of sins that I commit. It sounds to me like Moses was a cruel dictator who was using fear tactics to control his people. Even so, the most frightening of all of the Commandments is telling me that I do not have the freedom to worship how I see fit. I'm sorry, but if I lived in Moses' times, I would have taken up arms against his oppressive government. These two commandments go against the very fiber of morality that exists within my being, and I find them to be downright offensive in that they are basically telling everyone who does not believe in Moses's deity is to be punished.

Quote:
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


Of course, I kind of believe that the freedom of speech is a good thing, though it does make me quite angry to see people use the word of God to tout a product, a belief, or an ideal (which is the true essense of using the Lord's name in vain anyway). However, I find it kind of ironic, oxymoronic if you will, that these very Ten Commandments that Moses wrote is an example of using the Lord's name in vain.

Quote:

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


In other words, according to Moses, going to buy a carton of eggs on Sunday is just as vile of a sin as murder.

Quote:
20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


I refuse to honor my parents, for they have made my life a living hell.

Quote:
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


I kind of like capitalism.

So, we have six of Moses's commandments that are, in my eyes, a load of crap. Two of these commandments are downright offensive to me. That leaves four commandments that are "good rules to live by", but at the same time, I view these four commandments to be nothing more than common sense. "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not commit adultery", "Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" are all examples of rules that other societies have come up with on their own without the benefit of Moses's Commandments.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#196373 - 12/23/07 09:44 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11046
Loc: Denver, CO
Part of the disagreement I see here is that God it not in the picture. We are not dealing with "Moses' government." We are dealing with laws given by God (humor me for just a bit). As for honoring your parents, believe me when I say I know how tough that one is. I struggle with that one, as do many others. I feel I honor them by avoiding them, thus avoiding any potential conflict between us. When I am in contact with them, I am civil.

As for the Sabbath, I am confused why folks think that is Sunday, since Saturday is the seventh day on my calendar. The Sabbath is a day of rest, whereas Sunday is a day of congregational worship. That may sound nit-picky to some, but it is a legitimate question in my mind. Regarding the eggs, buy them on Friday.

I like capitalism too. Why do you feel that a command to avoid uncontrolled desire over a neighbor's wife and possessions is a slam to capitalism? I can promote my capitalism without having jealousy over someone else. Who cares if Bill Gates made 90 billion bucks? Nevermind there is a reference to a wife. Do you feel it is capitalism to covet a neighbor's wife? I call the neighbor's wife off-limits. I don't see that as a load of crap at all. I wouldn't want to know that my neighbor drooling over my spouse.

I think that this is simply matters of perception. What you call crap, I call God's law, and I don't think God gave us any command that we cannot handle. I also believe we are no longer under old testament law. New testament law is better in that instead of a list of dos and don'ts for actions, we have it where matters of the heart are addressed to where the action is dealt with before it even has a chance to happen. Make the heart right, and the rest of it takes care of itself.





Edited by FormerTexan (12/23/07 09:50 AM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


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#196376 - 12/23/07 09:48 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
Nate Offline
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Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 94
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
"When knowledge entered the world, sin entered the world, and it only gets worse and harder. "

dear god open your eyes

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#196377 - 12/23/07 09:49 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Nate]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11046
Loc: Denver, CO
Whose quote is that, Nate?

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#196386 - 12/23/07 10:23 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
mogigo Offline
Member
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Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
What makes you think he didn't?

If a guy is gonna gun me down with an AK47 in the first place, I doubt it will matter to him what my name is. Might as well tell him my actual name.


Sorry FT, I can see my words were a little insensitive, I didn't take Bryan's words literally I took it as an example of how ancient text needs to be revised to today's world.

I've taken the lessons of Christianity to heart but I think it's the literalness of the way people have taken them as a reason for societies not moving forward. I'm a good person and live by the golden rule but I do it because it's right for society, not because I might get some golden reward at the end of my life. Knowing my Daughter will live in a better world when I'm gone is enough reason for me to be a moral person.

Maybe Jesus was saying if we all act like good Christians then the Earth will become heaven.

Mike

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#196387 - 12/23/07 10:31 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mogigo]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11046
Loc: Denver, CO
Mike,

It's all good. I've seen several points of view on this thread that have caught my attention, but it doesn't mean I'm out to crucify anyone (Sorry, I just couldn't resist - lol). Some of them I feel are worthy a good debate, and will challenge some that stand out to me. I appreciate your thoughts.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#196394 - 12/23/07 11:37 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: FormerTexan]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
"Honor thy father and mother"

Why should I honor someone who took a blender to my brain? He didn't honor his little son by raping him -- in fact, quite the opposite -- and I won't honor him just because a Book tells me to honor him. Respect is earned, not given, I think.

About the longevity of Christianity. If it wasn't picked up by the Romans, and then by European countries, it might've died off long ago. If the Church wasn't pretty much the government for 100s of years, would the Bible have stayed in tact? I don't know.

I think for a lot of people in this new generation "just because" isn't enough anymore. Back when people had less options, when other religions were far off ideas in far off lands, the "just because" argument would've worked. But in this digital/educational age when people can access all sorts of religious ideas at their finger tips, people are less willing to be Christian "just because" their parents were -- and they certainly won't believe stuff in the Bible "just because" it in there, and "maybe" God wrote it. People think more logically now, I think, after seeing different options -- and they want hard evidence that relates to them before changing their lives.

Just my two cents.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196404 - 12/23/07 01:09 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I don't know if I can continue this debate on a moderated forum without the risk of serious censure. My goal was to illustrate why I view the Bible, and in particular, the Old Testament to be one of the most offensive pieces of literature ever written. It has stood the test of time simply because it is an easy tool for those who desire power to wield against the people who seek to take such power from them. The fact that people still use the mythology of>
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#196405 - 12/23/07 01:31 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I guess there's a reason your mom told you never to talk about religion and politics. LOL

I hope I don't come off as judgmental...I just have strong feelings. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196412 - 12/23/07 02:47 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11046
Loc: Denver, CO
Bryan,

Quote:
All I have to say to God is this: if you want us to follow your silly rules, get your butt down here and tell us yourself.


He already did. ;\)

I think the debate is fine, however I worry that Liam may see this as a departure from his original posting. I think the Unmoderated Forum is a great place to continue the debate, if you would like to do so.

Andy,

I have no problem with people sharing their feelings on a matter. That's why many times you will see me use phrases such as "I think" or "I feel."

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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