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#190630 - 11/09/07 04:47 PM Age when you distinguish bad intentions!
genti Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 5
Loc: MD
I am new here and I will apologise for my english language because it's not my first language. Reading one of the previous topics I was thinking about the age when you can distinguish the bad intentions that older people could have toward you. I remember clearly that at 13 we were aware of the bad sexual intentions that older people could have had!We experienced incidents of this nature, for exemple:when I was 13, I was playing in a soccer court with my friends and when the game finished somebody, a court worker that we met at this court before, approached me and for a bit grazed me in the backside. In a fraction of second I rebeled and went way throwing stones on him understanding his intentions.
My point is that at 13 we were pretty aware about negativ sexual approaches of older people and we could have rejected them unless the force was use. Do you have the same opinion that at age 13 you have the consciousness to distingiush the bed sexual intentions of older people?


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#190632 - 11/09/07 04:55 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: genti]
Gerald2007 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Southeastern US
Genti,

Are you suggesting that a 13 year old who was sexually abuse should "know better"?

Are you suggesting that a 13 year old should or could stop an older more powerful person from abusing them?

Are you suggesting the abuse I suffered at 12 or 13 was my fault?

It sounds that way to me. HOW DARE YOU.

_________________________
Alumnus: Weekend of Recovery - Dahlonega, May 2008 and May 2009
We are bound together by the pain of the past and our hopes for the future.

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#190634 - 11/09/07 05:14 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Gerald2007]
genti Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 5
Loc: MD
No, I did not suggest it! If you reed with attention I wrote: unless the force was used!! I am not saying that was your fault in any circumstances! I wrote the message because in a previous topic, to my understanding, it seems that the incident happened in a kind of "agreement" between a 16 years boy and 13 year boy. If it was use force I can understand it but if not how you let a 16 years old boy doing things to you! This was my point.


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#190635 - 11/09/07 05:15 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: genti]
Gerald2007 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Southeastern US
Force or no force it doesn't matter.

Your point is incorrect.

_________________________
Alumnus: Weekend of Recovery - Dahlonega, May 2008 and May 2009
We are bound together by the pain of the past and our hopes for the future.

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#190636 - 11/09/07 05:18 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Gerald2007]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
He did say that English wasn't his first language.

And that's not what I got from his post at all.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#190641 - 11/09/07 05:52 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11182
Loc: Denver, CO
"Do you have the same opinion that at age 13 you have the consciousness to distingiush the bed sexual intentions of older people?"

Genti,

This is very difficult because there are other factors mixed in with this. The dilemma with many abuse scenarios (not all), there is enough healthy touch mixed in with the bad touch to make the bad touch seem plausible and excusable. Take an abuser who is not violent: though they are still wrong in their actions, they may mix in some healthy touch that will fill a certain in the victim, even for a moment. Threats can also play a role in drawing compliance from the abused. Threats can even be withdrawal of "love" by the abuser, leaving the victim feeling devastated. Perhaps under a certain circumstance and profile of thought, a 13 -year-old can rebuff such an advance as you described, but I would have to consider that one rare.

Clarification of your statement has helped as well. I have a question for you: do you have a friend or family member who is a survivor of sexual abuse?

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#190644 - 11/09/07 06:20 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: FormerTexan]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Quote:

My point is that at 13 we were pretty aware about negativ sexual approaches of older people and we could have rejected them unless the force was use. Do you have the same opinion that at age 13 you have the consciousness to distingiush the bed sexual intentions of older people?


I think the important point of your question is whether a 13 year old has the "consciousness to distingiush the bed sexual intentions of older people". And in a word, I think the answer is "maybe". It depends on the individual. I know that I didn't. With perp #1 at age 12, I didn't understand what he was doing or why he was doing it. I was simply that clueless about anything sexual at that age. I've seen that concept expressed by many, many survivors here - "I didn't understand that what was being done to me was sexual."

And even at later ages, when a child understands the concept of sex, whether or not he can understand advances of a perp is still questionable. The last perp was when I was 16 and when he put his arm around me, I did not understand then that he had ulterior motives - I thought it was simply a friendly hug. In retrospect now, I know it was not. He was building up to the violation.

_________________________
Eddie

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#190646 - 11/09/07 06:48 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: EGL]
genti Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 5
Loc: MD
I did not want to create confusion with the question that I made and if so I apologise, I was just triggered from a previous topic when a 13 old boy does things to 16 years boy and vice-versa. I needed to be more specified in distinguishing molestation like fondling or touching at backside when at that age you could be confused on understanding what are the intentions of perpe. and doing oral sex and reciving oral sex from somebody else.
Andy, no I do not have a friend or family member who is a survivor of sexual molestation.

I am sorry once again for misunderstanding.


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#190752 - 11/10/07 10:27 AM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: genti]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I, personally, think the age differs from person to person, but one must always keep in mind that the element of power that always exists in sexual abuse cases might make a 13 year old engage in sexual acts that he might otherwise know are wrong.

And that is why a lot of the men here struggle. Knowingly entering into a sexual act makes a boy or a teen feel like they were an active part of their abuse, and they tend to take the blame for what transpired afterwards. However, just because a boy or a teen knows it is wrong and does it anyway does not mean that there should be any blame thrust on that teen for trying to, say, impress an authority figure.

The element of power runs deep.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#190775 - 11/10/07 02:09 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: BJK]
Jarrad Offline
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Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
i think there is a valid point here. kids are starting to have sex younger now. it isnt unheard of for a 13 or 14 year old to willingly have sex. i think that does make the messages mixed a bit. if you think back to when you were 13 or 14 you idolized the older people in your school. if one of them shows interest in you sexually, how many would say no? i wouldnt. is that abuse then? not at all.


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#190781 - 11/10/07 02:57 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
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I disagree, Jarrad. The question is, why is the 13 year old having sex? Is it to feel accepted? If that is the case, then the older child is still exerting a sort of power over the younger child, and the child could easily grow up to misconstrue that to mean something it doesn't.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#190812 - 11/10/07 07:03 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: Jarrad
if you think back to when you were 13 or 14 you idolized the older people in your school. if one of them shows interest in you sexually, how many would say no? i wouldnt. is that abuse then? not at all.


That's the kind of thing I would expect to see on the NAMBLA web site. "It's o.k. as long as the kid doesn't object."

_________________________
Eddie

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#190817 - 11/10/07 08:13 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: EGL]
Jarrad Offline
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Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
ummm actually EGL, it's taken from the point of view of a horny normal teenager. im sorry you can't see anyone else's viewpoint but your own. not everyon is as narrowminded. and don't put words in my mouth please. thanks.


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#190840 - 11/10/07 10:03 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I simply quoted you, Jarrad. You seem to have no understanding of what sexual abuse is. You think it is o.k. for a child to have sex, as long as it is within certain constraints. I don't. Therein is our difference.

_________________________
Eddie

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#190841 - 11/10/07 10:05 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: EGL]
Jarrad Offline
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Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
then don't call me a NAMBLA member. that's offensive.


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#190844 - 11/10/07 10:16 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Re-read my post. I didn't say you were a NAMBLA member. I said that what you posted is what I would expect to see there. Big difference. All done here with this one.

_________________________
Eddie

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#190866 - 11/10/07 11:02 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: EGL]
dannym Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I think this is a tough question. I think the age is less important than the maturity level of the child as well as the relationship between the kids. I don't think kids should be having sex at 13, but as the father of two teenagers, I'm well aware that my opinion regarding ANYTHING is not valued at this point :).

I do have an interesting personal note. When I was in 7th grade, I had a huge crush on a ninth grader. I was in awe of this kid - he was so amazing. I fantasized about having sex with him and it was exciting and forbidden and scary and all the things any normal 13 year old would feel as he discovers his sexuality. But here's the catch. I was 13 fantasizing about having sex for the first time, but I had started having sex (oral) at the age of 6 and anal at the age of 8. Technically, I was 7 years past loosing my virginity, but that wasn't how I thought about it. What I did with my perps was mechanical and without emotion - like masterbating - what I was looking for was "love" or "lust" or something OTHER than what I had been doing for so long.

My point is that a child's perceptions are different depending on the circumstances, matuity level, etc.... so I don't think it can be that cut and dry.


Sorry... I tend to start writing and I think I loose the thread of the post, but that's just what came out.

And Jarrad, you are many things, my friend, but no one would ever accuse you of being a NAMBLA sympathizer... ever.

Dan

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#190988 - 11/11/07 04:01 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
genti,

I would agree with Brian. Power over a boy can EASILY be too much for him to have a chance to leave an abusive contact.

Besides, power can't be seen as it is by a boy. Power from one older person can't be seen as the tool to make the boy hurt and change his life.

In the situation that you described, the little you was able to clearly see the intentions of that older person. In other cases, boys just can't understand where they got. Pedophiles are known to be good at picking up a vulnerable and emotionally needy child, who is plainly unable to recognise the potential threat from the person that seems caring.

Otherwise, as in my case, power can be used in its worst form. I was raped. I was physically and sexually abused, and still I could not realize what I went through until I became much older. My mind simply could not "process" the fact that I experienced was brutal violation of my boundaries and my trust.

In a word, it depends on every case. 13 years of age is not the point to start from.

Please, continue with your questions here. Welcome.

Alexey



Edited by alexey (11/11/07 04:03 PM)
_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
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(")_(")
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When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#190989 - 11/11/07 04:20 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: dannym]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Guys,

In reference to the heated words above, we've watched flamefests erupt this way where each feels they are justified in making their points without any civility - the result was that the parties ultimately either realized they were excessive or felt they were a victim. Some even left MS because of the level of invective that was exchanged. Our hope is that this is not the beginning of another one of these. Please reflect on your needs here and where this may be going.

Please feel free to continue a civil discourse on the discussion at hand.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#191011 - 11/11/07 05:51 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: WalkingSouth]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
May I offer MY case as evidence in support of the rule? (The rule being: Children cannot consent to sex)

I was initially forcebly raped from age 7.5 to 10. What I did from 10-14 was what many would call "very active acting out." That is, I went looking for sex and had sex with numerous older boys and had a long twisted relationship with one perp for that entire period (he was 4 years older).

If you asked me in an interview at 14 "did I want it?" The answer would be "hell yes."

Let's complete the hypothetical interview and ask me today. The answer IS "hell NO...and I regret ever being in that situation."

So, now that the rational adult is seeing things from this sober perspective...who is responsible for all of that sex I was having? (notice I did not say "blame"...I said "responsible.")

Perps are perps.....right is right.....wrong is wrong. It was abuse NOT consent.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#191013 - 11/11/07 06:02 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
River Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
If the 13 or 14 year old is "willing" to do things sexually with an older teen or an adult does not change the fact that it is still sexual abuse. The age difference creates a HUGE power differential. I have spoken with guys who thought it was cool at 16 years of age to have sex with a hot twenty-five year old female. It is still sexual abuse. The power differential exists whether or not willingness was a part of the equation.

_________________________
GD

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#191017 - 11/11/07 06:05 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: River]
River Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
Robbie's post is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Thanks Robbie.



Edited by River (11/11/07 06:06 PM)
_________________________
GD

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#191019 - 11/11/07 06:26 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Still]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
As I've said so often on these boards...the hardest part of my recovery has been coming to terms with the fact that my abuser did not love me.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#191020 - 11/11/07 06:29 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: WalkingSouth]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
****WARNING possible triggers, no button-pushing intended****



Surprise, surprise.. i'm jumping into this one, i know everyone's shocked-
i think a good way of looking at it would be to consider the INDIVIDUAL as well as what was going on with people our own age at the time... i "lost my virginity" @ 14 w/ a 16-year old girl who was a survivor herself i don't consider either of our heads to have been "normal", but i certainly didn't then, and don't now, see that as "abuse", just two kids trying to deal w/ strong hormones and a strong drive to feel OK or safe about sex and sexuality- i remember a lot of my male friends and i would talk constantly about what girl they would want to "do it" with in school, what singers/stars we thought were hot, etc. starting in 7th grade- of course, that was the year of my 2nd abuse event, too- but let's remember, it's pretty standard for kids at that age to be "too big for their britches", ie to show a lot of bravado about things they don't really have a handle on yet, whether it's fighting or sex or whatever, if you want to hear a ridiculous-sounding claim of "I've done that!" or "I'm not chicken/ scared of that!" go find a group of kids of around that age... i never had any siblings, but my friends that had older bros. (especially) or sisters tended to be teased or mocked as to their inexperience or boasting, and seemed to either have more "inside info" or more of a tendency toward pushing themselves or others to "prove it", whether it was drinking, fighting, smoking, sex, or any other forbidden adult activity...
One of the things that still hurts me to think about is that i figured out my 2nd abuser was a pedo before he actually touched me, but i was unable to run or yell or kick him in the balls or do any of the thngs a part of me kept telling myself to do...
i don't think there is a "magic age" when the ability to to distinguish bad intentions suddenly appears; as far as older kids knowing right from wrong, same thing- the "bad kids" i knew were all pretty much the same, no matter the age- their values toward everything were warped in the sense of always being the kids to initiate cruelty to animals, stealing, vandalizing, burning things, etc. and having little to no caring adults interfering w/ these pursuits. An age question is where the legal system and the health-care system have collided in an imperfect attempt to deal with these issues, i've got no answer, but unless we have no true empathy, we all know that inner feeling of "wrongness" whether it's experiencing abuse, or witnessing some form of it. I know that there is no magic answer to these things, but i know that it's the adult's resonsibility in any case- if it's teenagers it gets blurry from an outsider's POV as to what may be going on. Is it a household where sexual expression of any kind is immediately punished? Consider a family where there is no overt SA, but physical contact of any type is only acceptable in the context of violence or punishment, or where mental illness finds an outlet in extreme religiosity, like the case of Ed Gein and his mother. I'm rambling, but it has been a provocative thread for me in a positive sense, i don't want to see flame-wars either, but i think we're touching on issues that have no easy answers, as a society we're still struggling to sort all of this out- we all want to do the right thing, but i always have to look at each situation individually, and concentrate on "is someone being hurt?" Sometimes that all we have to go on, the other stuff is very knotty; i think it's arrogant to assume that this particular point in history represents the highest possible apex of wisdom in human affairs, but we can only work with what we've got. Alright, i'm done rambling, i'm just thinking out loud guys, hope nobody feels the need to "set me straight", i'm not pushing any kind of agenda here..

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#191022 - 11/11/07 06:37 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: dgoods]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
you all are speaking with your survivor goggles on again. the oringal post, correct me if im wrong, was talking about behaviors starting at 13/14. a lot of you are coming at it with the assumption there was abuse prior.

so in my opinion, if a 14 year old hooks up with a 16 year old, its not abuse. both of them are not mature enough to figure out whats right and what is wrong and proabbly are completely controled by hormoes and peer pressure. the 16 year old is hardly one to be like "oh no. i cant have sex because im an adult and that's abuse." go into any school system. listen to the 14 year olds talk. 10 to 1, sex is brought up. rumors about whose having it, whose not. whose hot. etc.

i think most of you are too quick to "cry abuse" with out seeing it from a non abused, normal teen stand point.


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#191032 - 11/11/07 07:18 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
dannym Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Jarrad, you make a good point - a little strongly and provocatively, but that's Jarrad - but I think everyone really needs to stop speaking in generalities.... It's always abuse, it's never abuse, it's normal teenage experimentation, its power


It depends on the 13 year old, it depends on the 16 year old and it depends on the culture they are living in.... life isn't black and white - My perp was 4 years older - and it was abuse. I also "experiemnted" with a kid 3 years older.. that was NOT, because it was a mutual decision and there was no power diffential in our relationship.

I wonder if some of us do use our abused-goggles... and wonder if others of us make sure we do NOT use them... either way, it leads to taking sides... and I truly believe there is not a "side" to be on - you need to look at each case individually-

My 2 cents... I've decided to get an abused boy monocle - maybe it will help! \:\)

Dan

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#191035 - 11/11/07 07:45 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: dannym]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
haha if we all had the monocle life would be better and there wouldnt be arguements here.


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#191036 - 11/11/07 08:17 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: Jarrad]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
hmmm ... somehow I figure no matter how clear the monocle, how we see things would still be open to personal interpretation ....

and after all, what causes most arguments around here?


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#191037 - 11/11/07 08:54 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: MarkK]
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Hey, what do you mean by THAT!!!

\:\)

Very true, Mark... which keeps things exciting!

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#191039 - 11/11/07 08:59 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: dannym]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
... remind me again why we want things exciting?

M


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#191041 - 11/11/07 09:50 PM Re: Age when you distinguish bad intentions! [Re: MarkK]
dannym Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
"Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death! "... Auntie Mame.

Excitment!!!! Woo Hoo!!!!

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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