If the 13 or 14 year old is "willing" to do things sexually with an older teen or an adult does not change the fact that it is still sexual abuse. The age difference creates a HUGE power differential. I have spoken with guys who thought it was cool at 16 years of age to have sex with a hot twenty-five year old female. It is still sexual abuse. The power differential exists whether or not willingness was a part of the equation.

Robbie's post is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Thanks Robbie.

As I've said so often on these boards...the hardest part of my recovery has been coming to terms with the fact that my abuser did not love me.

****WARNING possible triggers, no button-pushing intended****



Surprise, surprise.. i'm jumping into this one, i know everyone's shocked-
i think a good way of looking at it would be to consider the INDIVIDUAL as well as what was going on with people our own age at the time... i "lost my virginity" @ 14 w/ a 16-year old girl who was a survivor herself i don't consider either of our heads to have been "normal", but i certainly didn't then, and don't now, see that as "abuse", just two kids trying to deal w/ strong hormones and a strong drive to feel OK or safe about sex and sexuality- i remember a lot of my male friends and i would talk constantly about what girl they would want to "do it" with in school, what singers/stars we thought were hot, etc. starting in 7th grade- of course, that was the year of my 2nd abuse event, too- but let's remember, it's pretty standard for kids at that age to be "too big for their britches", ie to show a lot of bravado about things they don't really have a handle on yet, whether it's fighting or sex or whatever, if you want to hear a ridiculous-sounding claim of "I've done that!" or "I'm not chicken/ scared of that!" go find a group of kids of around that age... i never had any siblings, but my friends that had older bros. (especially) or sisters tended to be teased or mocked as to their inexperience or boasting, and seemed to either have more "inside info" or more of a tendency toward pushing themselves or others to "prove it", whether it was drinking, fighting, smoking, sex, or any other forbidden adult activity...
One of the things that still hurts me to think about is that i figured out my 2nd abuser was a pedo before he actually touched me, but i was unable to run or yell or kick him in the balls or do any of the thngs a part of me kept telling myself to do...
i don't think there is a "magic age" when the ability to to distinguish bad intentions suddenly appears; as far as older kids knowing right from wrong, same thing- the "bad kids" i knew were all pretty much the same, no matter the age- their values toward everything were warped in the sense of always being the kids to initiate cruelty to animals, stealing, vandalizing, burning things, etc. and having little to no caring adults interfering w/ these pursuits. An age question is where the legal system and the health-care system have collided in an imperfect attempt to deal with these issues, i've got no answer, but unless we have no true empathy, we all know that inner feeling of "wrongness" whether it's experiencing abuse, or witnessing some form of it. I know that there is no magic answer to these things, but i know that it's the adult's resonsibility in any case- if it's teenagers it gets blurry from an outsider's POV as to what may be going on. Is it a household where sexual expression of any kind is immediately punished? Consider a family where there is no overt SA, but physical contact of any type is only acceptable in the context of violence or punishment, or where mental illness finds an outlet in extreme religiosity, like the case of Ed Gein and his mother. I'm rambling, but it has been a provocative thread for me in a positive sense, i don't want to see flame-wars either, but i think we're touching on issues that have no easy answers, as a society we're still struggling to sort all of this out- we all want to do the right thing, but i always have to look at each situation individually, and concentrate on "is someone being hurt?" Sometimes that all we have to go on, the other stuff is very knotty; i think it's arrogant to assume that this particular point in history represents the highest possible apex of wisdom in human affairs, but we can only work with what we've got. Alright, i'm done rambling, i'm just thinking out loud guys, hope nobody feels the need to "set me straight", i'm not pushing any kind of agenda here..

you all are speaking with your survivor goggles on again. the oringal post, correct me if im wrong, was talking about behaviors starting at 13/14. a lot of you are coming at it with the assumption there was abuse prior.

so in my opinion, if a 14 year old hooks up with a 16 year old, its not abuse. both of them are not mature enough to figure out whats right and what is wrong and proabbly are completely controled by hormoes and peer pressure. the 16 year old is hardly one to be like "oh no. i cant have sex because im an adult and that's abuse." go into any school system. listen to the 14 year olds talk. 10 to 1, sex is brought up. rumors about whose having it, whose not. whose hot. etc.

i think most of you are too quick to "cry abuse" with out seeing it from a non abused, normal teen stand point.

Jarrad, you make a good point - a little strongly and provocatively, but that's Jarrad - but I think everyone really needs to stop speaking in generalities.... It's always abuse, it's never abuse, it's normal teenage experimentation, its power


It depends on the 13 year old, it depends on the 16 year old and it depends on the culture they are living in.... life isn't black and white - My perp was 4 years older - and it was abuse. I also "experiemnted" with a kid 3 years older.. that was NOT, because it was a mutual decision and there was no power diffential in our relationship.

I wonder if some of us do use our abused-goggles... and wonder if others of us make sure we do NOT use them... either way, it leads to taking sides... and I truly believe there is not a "side" to be on - you need to look at each case individually-

My 2 cents... I've decided to get an abused boy monocle - maybe it will help!

Dan

haha if we all had the monocle life would be better and there wouldnt be arguements here.

hmmm ... somehow I figure no matter how clear the monocle, how we see things would still be open to personal interpretation ....

and after all, what causes most arguments around here?

Hey, what do you mean by THAT!!!



Very true, Mark... which keeps things exciting!

... remind me again why we want things exciting?

M