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#190813 - 11/10/07 07:25 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: River]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Mark, thanks for clarifying- great thinkers have argued for years about the meanings of words, so i won't claim to be any wiser than they. If you claim first-hand knowledge of God, it's stupid and pointless for me to argue w/ you- how would i know? I can't read your mind; i accept your statement for what it is.
Thanks for remaining calm and respectful in your posts; i never said being religious or siritual was stupid or wrong, i just can't claim to have ever experienced anything of an unmistakably divine nature. I hope that you and i can be friends though our paths may differ, i echo Bryan's compliments, you certainly practice that which the epistle of James speaks of.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#190815 - 11/10/07 07:44 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: BJK]
Darren Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 120
Loc: The High Seas
A few thoughts:

To BJK: Count me as on the fence between atheism and agnosticisim. (I used to be a born-again Christian).

On religion as a tool of oprresion: Who decided what books would be included in the bible? White, anglo-saxon males. Hmmmmm.

For the CSA victim: Religion victimizes you, too. You give yourself over to a God who tells you that everything happens for a reason?? So you were singled out to suffer a traumatized childhood and dysfuncitonal adulthood for... what? And why you? Ah, but we dare not ask lest we offend god almighty! Is it not good enough that Jesus died on the cross for our sins? This explanation makes no sense to me.

Buzz key: You say Bryan is lost and clueless, and an intellectual idiot. Have you never questioned your faith? I think it takes a lot of courage to question your faith. After all nothing less than our eternal souls are/were at stake. We are only using what your god ostensibly gave us to use, namely our brains which come equipped with the ability to reason and question. I think it would be intellectually dishonest not to question your faith if there is the slightest shred of doubt. What evidence can you put forth that God does exist and that we should believe in him?

I do not intend to offend anyone with this post , but to keep with the theme of honest, open discourse regarding religion and CSA. I really think religion makes us victims twice over. Once because of our human abusers, and again by a god that supposedly is telling us: It is part of my master plan.

So we have to recover twice, if you will. Once from our sexual abuse, and again from our spiritual abuse.

Respectfully, Darren

_________________________
“Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates” -Mark Twain

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#190831 - 11/10/07 09:24 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: BJK]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: BJK
You know there is a God in the same way I know there is not one. I think we acknowledge and respect each other's beliefs in that regard. I'll go one step further and say that I admire you greatly for your ability to acknowledge and respect my beliefs in that regard. Too many people use religion as a moral pedestal, a tool to repress, or as a mask to hide behind. It is obvious to me that you don't.

I used to tell people I respected their right to be wrong ... Truth is, there is always the possibility that what I 'know' is just fabrication of a deluded mind. Plus, the way I read my Bible - judgement is NOWHERE on my list of duties here. Love, respect, honor, acceptance of others, not casting stones .... those are some of what are.

Originally Posted By: BJK
When someone tells me I'm an intellectual idiot and that I'm lost and clueless because I refuse to believe in God, that reminds me a little too much of my abuse.

Yeah. I have the same response to such words.

M


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#190832 - 11/10/07 09:27 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: dgoods]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: dgoods
I hope that you and i can be friends though our paths may differ, i echo Bryan's compliments, you certainly practice that which the epistle of James speaks of.

I hope so too - thanx.

However ... if I show ANYthing of what is taught in James ... or any other part of the Bible ... it isn't me.

But - that's probably a WHOLE other topic of discussion...

;\)

M


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#190836 - 11/10/07 09:32 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: MarkK]
buzz_key Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
my apologies folks...having a bad day and i let the worldly side of me take over in response to something i disagreed with...

i should never have called anyone any name...

truly sorry...buzz


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#190845 - 11/10/07 10:17 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: buzz_key]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
thanks buzz,
no grudge on my part, i'm here to make new friends, not enemies...
we can agree to disagree, and still help one another to heal.
\:\)

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#190868 - 11/10/07 11:12 PM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: River]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
River/GD

There is nothing to forgive. I do not hold a man accountable for the actions of those who have similar beliefs or his ancestors.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#190891 - 11/11/07 02:36 AM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: BJK]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
But Bryan? What's the point of even living then? If your life has been nothing but painful, nothing coming easy, and everything you set out to do is a struggle, then why not just kill yourself? That way, there won't be any more pain? Right?

Let's carry this to an extreme. Why not kill 6 million jews? Why not starve 7 million Ukrainians? Why not perp hundreds of boys? Why not only serve oneself and why give a shit about anyone else? Why be kind to people? What's the point to subscribing to any code of honor or decency? Why bother if there is nothing to look forward to after our deaths except............ nothingness?

I could never presume to be qualified to discuss theology, since I never read the bible or any other religious documents.

I just thought I would throw these scenarios out here and see how you might rationalize the thought that Stalin and Hitler got off scott-free, and that they're not paying for all the pain, hurt, humiliation, suffering, torture, and death that they had inflicted on countless millions of people.

Maybe your right Bryan, but, this one time, I really hope you're wrong.


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#190910 - 11/11/07 07:15 AM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: Hauser]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Why not just kill myself? Because I'm more afraid of nothing than I am of hell.

I try as hard as I can to live my life by a code. I try to treat others as I want to be treated. I try to pay kindness forward. I do these things because I have a hope that other people will do the same. All of the morality I have has been ingrained within me as a way to try to make my life, as well as the lives of others, easier, not my death.

I think it's somewhat absurd to think that morality and religion are somehow linked, for we see this same morality that humans disply in many other animal species. Besides, if there is this all powerful Sky Fairie up in the clouds who has the power to create a univers with galaxies, solar systems, planets, stars, plants, animals, a periodic table, as well as you and me, why would he care what you and I do with our day to day lives?

When I was sixteen years old sitting in my bathtub with a razor blade and a cigarette, there were a lot of thoughts that flashed through my mind. I was afraid of my mother finding me that way, and that gave me pause to reflect. If I was truly going to hell for killing myself, I viewed that as an improvement. However, if everything just ended at that point, that was truly scary to me. I have made the same decision at several points in my life. Since I won the greatest lottery in the world by being lucky enough to be born into this world, I'm going to try to do what I can with that prize.

To you, Alan, I ask the same question. If people have the promise of heaven to look forward to, then what in this life could possibly be as rewarding as that?

If I believed in God, I'd be dead.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#190911 - 11/11/07 07:30 AM Re: Higher Power: (possible triggers) [Re: Hauser]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Hauser

Let's carry this to an extreme. Why not kill 6 million jews? Why not starve 7 million Ukrainians? Why not perp hundreds of boys? Why not only serve oneself and why give a shit about anyone else? Why be kind to people? What's the point to subscribing to any code of honor or decency? Why bother if there is nothing to look forward to after our deaths except............ nothingness?


One word, Alan. Love.

Love is the emotion that prevents people from committing such atrocities. People like Hitler and Stalin? I fear they were incapable of feeling love.

Quote:
I just thought I would throw these scenarios out here and see how you might rationalize the thought that Stalin and Hitler got off scott-free, and that they're not paying for all the pain, hurt, humiliation, suffering, torture, and death that they had inflicted on countless millions of people.


If there is an afterlife for these six million Jews that Hitler killed, and if there is an afterlife for the seven million of my kinsmen that Joseph Stalin killed in the Ukraine, then why should we even care about stopping these men from committing these atrocities?

Besides, has it ever occurred to you that Hitler and Stalin were doing what they thought was "right and true" when they committed these atrocities? If someone actually believes that, then scaring them with stories about what "might" happen to them in the afterlife is not going to stop them.

Revenge is a word that is not in my vocabulary, so when I think about people like Stalin and Hitler, my only concern is stopping them. What happens next has nothing to do with me as long as the killing ends.

Quote:
Maybe your right Bryan, but, this one time, I really hope you're wrong.


This is a phenomenon that is known as "Pascal's Wager". When people say "I'd better believe in God just in case he exists", they are making a wager that they will be "saved". I view it as nothing more than pretense, and I firmly believe that most people who proclaim to be believers either prescribe to Pascal's Wager or they are afraid of being persecuted in life.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (11/11/07 07:31 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
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