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#188353 - 10/22/07 11:15 AM Biological basis for pedophilia?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA

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#188368 - 10/22/07 01:11 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6597
Loc: Never Sugar Mountain
Maybe if we understand what drives it, we can limit CSA???? Sure, I can see that...but I surely don't ever want to see the results of such research end up in court as any basis for excuse. THAT is exactly what has happened with many insanity defenses. e.g.: Genetic pre-disposition to offend in some way ought never excuse decision-based behavior.....or "his history as a CSA survivor ought to result in a lesser punishment."

Sometimes (especially these days) science sets out on looking for answers with a social/political agenda. I smell one here....sorry to say.

_________________________
Objects In Mirror are Less Than They Appear.

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#188382 - 10/22/07 05:39 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Still]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
I know that maybe i'm not able to be objective about this, but sometimes i feel like Satan himself could appear, sulfur and all, and be simply diagnosed as having "Personification-of-Evil Disorder". When i read the bit about physically castrated pedophiles taking testosterone supplements and abusing all over again, and keep seeing "disease" and "disorder" in reference to pedophilia, it bothers me. I fully agree that the area of their brain that regulates impulse control must be damaged or deficient in some way, but i truly believe that what might have been a treatable condition if caught very early, becomes burned into the brain irreversibly with time, and the real issue is sociopathology. Whenever i read about a pedophile's suicide, it seems to have been motivated by being caught, not by guilt or remorse. It's to escape punishment, not to silence inner demons. Again, if they thwart castration, it's not sexuality that's the question (unless they somehow managed to get the supplements before their natural testosterone wore off). It's about a complete lack of empathy, total selfishness, an inner blindness or disregard toward the difference between right and wrong. They know it's "wrong" in the eyes of others, they just don't care. The only thing "real" to them is themselves, others may as well be robots or dolls, to be handled as necessary. Not all are necessarily this type, but i would imagine there are far more that profile closer to Ted Bundy than Jeffrey Dahmer. I know that serial killers and pedophiles are two different things, but there's way too much overlap there to ignore. Dahmer strikes me as one who could have been salvaged if someone had intervened in his life early on, when his behavior started showing abnormal signs, like mutilating squirrels, etc. He struck me as psychotic but remorseful, that he could not control himself. Bundy never had to drink himself into a stupor before doing what he did, planned his actions well in advance, and was always a model of charm, success, and intelligence externally, unlike Dahmer, who barely was able to appear normal enough to others to keep a job or an apartment. My point is that biological or no, I believe 99% of active pedophiles aren't treatable by the time their actions finally involve law enforcement/psychiatric evaluation. A dog that repeatedly attacks people, or who is rabid, may evoke pity, and might be that way due to neglect or abuse; but those things do not prevent euthanasia being the only solution. I'm not saying all pedophiles should be summarily executed, just that detection, enforcement, and prevention should remain society's focus, outside of a clinical or research setting. Pedophiles often lead double lives for years; they remain focused on escaping detection and punishment, and can often even fool psychiatrists. Because they are not emotionally invested in social interaction, their detached perspective makes deception and manipulation as natural as breathing to them. If criminal psychiatry is able to make strides in better understanding the roots of pedophilia, all well and good; but keep 'em locked up while you're studying them- they're always just waiting for the rest of us to blink, so they can go back to abusing again.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#188395 - 10/22/07 08:10 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
Trish4850 Offline
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MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Robbie and dgoods - you both said everything I was thinking with much better words than I could ever muster, especially this:

Quote:
If criminal psychiatry is able to make strides in better understanding the roots of pedophilia, all well and good; but keep 'em locked up while you're studying them- they're always just waiting for the rest of us to blink, so they can go back to abusing again.


The author of the article says, "Experts say the public isn't ready to deal with the subject from a rational, medical perspective." Speaking as a member of the public - he's right!

ROCK ON.......Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#188396 - 10/22/07 08:12 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
theatrekid Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Seriously guys did we all not already know the pedophiles were mentally different than us?

The article even says "Scientists agree that pedophiles can choose whether or not to act on their desires, and that abusers should be jailed."

so its not like the article is giving them an excuse.

I think the men who hurt us should be punished very harshly

but at the same time we must recognize that their is a mental illness at some level effecting these people. if we are aware of this perhaps one day we will be able to fix it. you can lock all the people up who have abused kids in the world but the next day there will be more people ready to take there places. Treatment Must be offered if we really want to ever find a complete solution.

thats my thoughts any ways.

,Chris


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#188411 - 10/22/07 10:57 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: theatrekid]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
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Well said, Chris. Thanks.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#188414 - 10/22/07 11:28 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: WalkingSouth]
theatrekid Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
any time \:\)


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#188417 - 10/23/07 12:02 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: theatrekid]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Like I said,
Research it like crazy, absolutely. Find whatever neurological markers there are, so that perhaps some type of screening would reveal the risk at an early age, and hopefully some type of preventative therapy, whether a drug, cognition/affect realignment, or whatever they come up with, will work.

What irritated me is that they're still not able to distinguish biological from environmental factors when noting differences- kinda makes me think that PTSD or other trauma-related disorders would show similar differences between a sufferer and a control subject, whether that sufferer was a war veteran, a SA survivor, or a victim of a natural disaster.

It's not about "punishment" for me, it's about prevention-
Let's keep the ones we know about off the street, explore all avenues of treatment while we've got them in a controlled environment, AND work with all possible speed and diligence to prevent new ones from taking their place.
Sound reasonable?

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#188424 - 10/23/07 12:56 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
theatrekid Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Not quite reasonable. What if a man knows he is a pedophile but has the guts to come forward before acting out against a child? what do we do with him? i honestly dont know the answer but if the person comes asking for help shouldnt we give it to him?

(when i say we i mean society not MS just to be clear)

,Chris


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#188450 - 10/23/07 08:50 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: theatrekid]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
It must be pedophile week in Toronto. Here's the latest theory:

This morning's *Toronto Star* includes an articl: "Pedophiles tend to be
short men, study finds" by Joseph Hall.

Here's the article:

Pedophiles are significantly shorter on average than men who are
attracted to adults, according to a new study out of Toronto's Centre
for Addiction and Mental Health.

Similar height differences can be found in men who crave sex with
pubescent teenagers, say study researchers, who speculate the link
between stature and pedophilia might be traced to conditions in the womb.

The study - which looked at 1,200 men, most of whom were assessed for
sexual disorders between 1995 and 2006 at the centre - was published
yesterday in Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment.

It found pedophiles were 2 cm shorter than the average Canadian man, who
stands 178 cm or 5 feet 10 inches tall, a statistically significant
difference.

"It's about double the effect that would happen if a mother smokes while
she's pregnant," said CAMH psychologist James Cantor, the study's lead
author.

The height of men in the study who were attracted to young teenagers -
known as hebephiles - was right in the middle of the pedophile and non-
pedophile average.

Cantor stressed the vast majority of shorter men have no sexual desire
for children.

But for men who are pedophiles, the pre-birth conditions that affected
their growth could also have interfered with the sexual wiring of their
brains.

While nothing in the study pointed to the exact time such a neurological
change occurs, Cantor said earlier research indicates it happens in the
womb.

"Pedophiles are (also) about three times more likely to be left-handed
and that's something that really only happens with brain organization
before birth."

It is critical that people understand the condition is, at least in
part, dependent on biology, he said.

"What's important about this entire branch of research is that it
demonstrates pretty conclusively that it is indeed about how the body
grows and how the brain develops," Cantor said.

"There are still a great many people who believe that this is purely
learned, or (a psychological) reaction to something that happened in
childhood."

Pedophilia expert Dr. Fred Berlin, founder of the Johns Hopkins Sexual
Disorder Clinic in Baltimore, called the study interesting, but said it
left room for doubt.

Berlin said the study did not look at the height of parents, and so
there is a small possibility they may have shorter mothers and fathers.

He also said there was a chance shorter stature may have made the study
subjects targets for teasing, and that their condition was
psychologically induced in childhood.

But Cantor said the suspected biological link to the disorder does not
lessen the culpability of pedophiles who act on their sexual urges.

"The best analogy is that the great majority of males are attracted to
women for biological reasons, but that doesn't excuse rape," he said.

The research has potential for a medical prevention for pedophilia,
especially if the conditions that cause the disease can be identified
and altered in the womb.

No one knows what percentage of men are pedophiles, but Cantor said it
is a uniquely male condition and that his group at the centre assesses
250 to 300 men a year who are suspected of being pedophiles.


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#188451 - 10/23/07 09:11 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Interesting reading, Ken. Wow! I'd certainly like to see a study done by a different organization just to check the findings.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#188452 - 10/23/07 09:13 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
No one knows what percentage of men are pedophiles, but Cantor said it
is a uniquely male condition


Yep. That explains my mother.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#188457 - 10/23/07 10:23 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: BJK]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Yes, that is a rather absurd generalization on Cantor's part. Hell, I've seen guests on CNN's Larry King show devote an entire hour to the subject of female perps, Mothers in particular.


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#188458 - 10/23/07 10:33 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
kellygtx Offline
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Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas, USA
dgoods and Ken Singer -

All this talk about markers and characteristics needs to be studied with great care as not to stereotype individuals. It is the behavior we want to change. My fear is that if we can identify certain traits or characteristics in certain people, part of society is going to want to say "Look at these results - that person is a pedophile. Let's make sure they get (put them) in treatment." Or "Don't hire short men at an elementary school - or you run the risk of him being a pedophile."

I just think there has to be a great deal of caution used when we say this is the mark of a potential pedophile. That could easily be used against us also - remember there is a popular misconception that survivors have a high rate of propensity to become perps.




Edited by kellygtx (10/23/07 10:37 AM)
_________________________
I bid you Peace.

Kelly

The time is always NOW. Breath In. Breath Out. Move On.

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#188459 - 10/23/07 11:09 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Could it be that 'short male pedophiles' get caught more often than 'tall male pedophiles' ? Perhaps the "cure" will be to inject a "to be taller" chip into the fetal environment? Is the study telling me to warn my kids to avoid short people? Well my sons are 6'6" and 6'4"...almost EVERYBODY is shorter!!! What a dilemma!!!!

Again, I guess it is okay for my sons to hang out with Mary Jane Laterno and other such female teachers since being a pedophile is UNIQUELY A MALE CONDITION!

Howard

PS: I would find it interestingly funny if the researchers weren't taking their test seriously!!

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#188463 - 10/23/07 01:33 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: ScottyTodd]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Wow, i don't know how i missed that Cantor thing... how absurd...
In my last post, i almost went on about the dangers of straying too close to a eugenics-type mindset. I'm glad Hitler's not around to see what's possible with technology these days- it's the same old story about a knife being able to be used to slice bread, or cut someone's throat. The issue isn't the technonlogy, it's are we mature enough as a society to know how to use it responsibly?
just my further 2 cents...

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#188472 - 10/23/07 03:11 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Okay this is totally off subject but is it me or are the kids getting taller and taller?

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#188482 - 10/23/07 05:00 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: pain4ever]
duncanUK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 632
everyone in the street will be suspicious of short men. its like they tell us if you have a long index finger your gay. or some other stupid things.

i dont think they know what causes pedophilia.

_________________________
you dont see me. i am not really here. Its my fault.. all of it. I am to blame and no one else.

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#188484 - 10/23/07 05:16 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: duncanUK]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
a long index finger??

** is checking both hands **


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#188492 - 10/23/07 06:22 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: MarkK]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
This may bring a whole new meaning to Randy Newman's tongue-in-cheek song a few years back, "Short people got no reason to live".

By the way, I post these items here because they can provoke some discussion and sometimes the news is really important. I wouldn't put too much on the short people article but the issues around brain function are pretty interesting in that the role of the brain in processing trauma and maybe some of factors that make some people abuse others may have some biological basis.

Just as we know that alcohol affects brain function, getting drunk does not excuse anyone from their behaviors. It might help explain why they do stupid things.

Ken


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#188499 - 10/23/07 07:54 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: pain4ever]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
pain4ever,
I read somewhere that not only are kids taller overall, they're hitting puberty earlier, too- it mentioned something about changes in diet, and new parents being much older, on average...

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

Top
#188503 - 10/23/07 08:11 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
hey, I want to hear more about this "long index finger" thing.......! \:D

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#332343 - 05/28/10 11:14 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: dgoods]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dgoods
pain4ever,
I read somewhere that not only are kids taller overall, they're hitting puberty earlier, too- it mentioned something about changes in diet, and new parents being much older, on average...


This is true. It's in reputable text books. It's disconcerting. It may be due to a combination of high levels of sugar in the diet and the amount of light we are exposed to (artificial illumination & TV, etc.). It may also be influenced by the prevalence of antibiotic treatments for diseases of the young.

pufferfish


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#332401 - 05/28/10 05:39 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: BJK]
MrEdd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
And my first abuser.

I think I will put the plausability of this study on hold, pending confirmation from a source that isn't probably a crackhead vying for government grants.

_________________________
Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

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#332405 - 05/28/10 06:04 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: MrEdd]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
We are biological beings- our essence doesn't exist in some land of cloud. When we eat the food goes inside us. To think our brains must activate.

Why should it be suprising that science can study the activation of the brain to different stimuli? It would be strange if science could not do that- it would then in effect imply that we can exist without our brains.

They are mixing their words. We are biological creatures, so our thoughts can be seen by biological indicators. This doesn't imply a genetic predispostion. It just means we are biological creatures. There may be no "biological basis" (genetic predisposition) to be a paedophile, but by the fundamentals of science there sure MUST be biological indicators (but not the stupid things that the article has been talking about- like physical appearance)- otherwise we are all walking around in a land of dream. It is a distinction that must not be confused. It is a fundamental distinction between cause and effect. Scientists must be vigilant in identifying the difference between cause and effect.

It is good if this can be studied. There may be a way to disrupt whatever neural process that makes somebody attracted to children. It is no surprise that we can look at this as a biological thing- because like i already said we are biological. Anybody who thinks that our thoughts are independent of the biology of our brain also think that we can think without our brains. Some people may believe that idea in one sense- but even if there is life after death i don't think the mechanism of thought is in anyway the same.

A lot of the research i see coming out is not being presented properly. That is damaging and dangerous. Also everybody should be careful when trying to "predict" behaviour in a person due to biological indicators- that is a dangerous road to go down. I think, mostly, by the time information on such a touchy subject reaches us outside the realm of the hardcore scientific community it has been twisted to provoke sensational reactions, or misinterpreted by people who don't understand or don't want to understand.

I also think that a lot of research i see is often very moronic- but that's just my opinion lol. As a scientist i am always very critical of work i see, and i am never happy with accepting anything until i see the research myself, so maybe i am hard to please, or maybe i am doing what we should all do more- question.

Lewis

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#332407 - 05/28/10 06:11 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
No one knows what percentage of men are pedophiles, but Cantor said it
is a uniquely male condition and that his group at the centre assesses
250 to 300 men a year who are suspected of being pedophiles.


PLEASE say i have taken this quote completely out of context. I have read the post a number of times and i can't see what else he could be referring to.

Is Cantor saying that only males are pedophiles?

Like i said i know i must be reading this wrong or taking this out of context. But somebody reassure me? I don't think even this guy who seems to think all left handed people are more likely to be pedophiles can be this stupid.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#332443 - 05/29/10 12:18 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
Originally Posted By: dgoods
pain4ever,
I read somewhere that not only are kids taller overall, they're hitting puberty earlier, too- it mentioned something about changes in diet, and new parents being much older, on average...


This is true. It's in reputable text books. It's disconcerting. It may be due to a combination of high levels of sugar in the diet and the amount of light we are exposed to (artificial illumination & TV, etc.). It may also be influenced by the prevalence of antibiotic treatments for diseases of the young.


I'm sorry if two completely separate issues were confused here.

The issue of pedophilia being biological is a completely separate issue from the accelerated growth and maturity rate of the young in today's world.

pufferfish


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#332467 - 05/29/10 09:03 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: pufferfish]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Lewis:
I think you have to take into consideration that the quote
Quote:
No one knows what percentage of men are pedophiles, but Cantor said it
is a uniquely male condition and that his group at the centre assesses
250 to 300 men a year who are suspected of being pedophiles.

is not from an article that Cantor may have done but a news report of it. As one who has had numerous hours of conversation with reporters only to find my "brilliant" quotations taken out of context and paraphrased to something barely approximating what I was talking about.... take it with a grain of salt. The reporter, who likely knows nothing about the subject, is condensing much more content into a sound bite or brief quote.

The DSM-IV definition does not exclude females from pedophilia. Females can and do have strong urges to be sexual with prepubescent children and therefore are pedophiles by the definition.



Edited by Ken Singer, LCSW (05/29/10 09:03 AM)

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#332500 - 05/29/10 08:36 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
The very idea is anathema to me. In my mind it is a psychosocial maladaptation to life.
I am unsure of the mechanism but I think it is a combination of abuse, poor examples, positive reinforcement for behaviors leading up to this one and a mind that is deviant.

I don't see pedophilia is a sexual orientation which biological basis means.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#332503 - 05/29/10 09:42 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: kidneythis]
Marinan Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 330
Well, maybe it is an "Orientation" But I see pedophilia as the mind set, and molestation as the crime.

You can't imprison someone for an Orientation or even a mindset, but you can form opinions about them.


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#332676 - 05/31/10 11:11 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Marinan]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 826
Loc: Ohio
These professionals seem to me to be uniquely biased and uninformed about pedophilia. Sounds like a canned attempt to use sophomoric science (word sophomore means "wise fool" which is a second year student who has learned enough to sound intelligent and thinks he knows but doesn't really understand) to excuse and somehow condone the behavior. I am here to tell you that even IF someone has a sexual orientation towards children, trauma specialists can literally show you the damage caused on brain scans. THE CHILDREN they prey on do not have a sexual orientation for adults. I sure as hell didn't want my dad and a caring preacher to fondle and play with me. While I am a christian fundamentalist in many respects, at least adult males having sex with other adult males are both participating of their own free will. I can't even tell you how old I was when I was first molested. I sure as hell couldn't have consented to it.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#332698 - 06/01/10 11:26 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: catfish86]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
dgoods,
Just to let you know the Eugenics movement is an entirely American invention. Hitler may have based a lot of his beleifs on it but it was Americans who invented it. In fact my abuse in that shelter was caught up in the tail end of the movement. I'm starting to realize that my family intentionally interfered with my mental development by neglect, lies and starvation, to make me seem dumb so I would get locked up in the feeble minded ward once in the place. They had a ward for retarded kids in the hospital the shelter was part of and most people still thought that what a kid showed outwardly indicated what they were entirely. In fact many still do.
The funny part is that if I hadn't been abused I wouldn't be short. I beleive I am short because of the starvation and abuse I endured. I never got to eat as much as I needed or wanted until I was 18. I never knew what it felt like to not be hungry or not to worry about food until then. My brothers are all right at or over 6 feet and they didn't miss a meal.

Allen,
the lowering of the age of onset and the larger growth of people is and was always part of human potential. The realization of that potential has been made possible by the increase in nutrition and calories available to us as humans. In the early 20th century puberty set in at 14-16 for boys and 13-15 for girls generally, as most people were very thin and small. As the technology of farming and the economy took off so did physical development. We are after all animals and as animals our primary evolutionary goal is to reproduce. It is the same for all living things.
It isn't the chemicals used in farming themselves that are responsible but the nutrition and caloric content of the food they help produce that caused this increase in growth and the earlier onset of puberty. In fact most chemicals reduce fertility and feminize males who take them in. I think its called estrogen mimicking chemicals?
Thats physical feminization not mental.

Now for the biological basis and brain scans;
The very best that can be done with one of these is to establish a correlation. A correlation is saying that two things occured at the same time not that they are related or causative in any way.
Why? Because every single brain is wired differently. Yes certain areas are used for certain functions in most people but there are normally functioning people who are wired completely differenlty because of some congenital defect, or some trauma or????
There is no way that a scan can determine what reaction a person is having unless it is physical, and that is only a physical manifestation of whatever is going on inside which again cannot be known. You don't know if the person's mind is wandering and thinking of something else even if they say they aren't, or if the reaction is involuntary or unconscious, the fact is we can only measure the electrical impulses of biological functions. Unless and until there is a method of reading a persons thoughts its all pointless bullshit to discuss it in any but a theorhetical way.

The only people who think correlations mean something that should be acted on are the same types who think they "know" things that cannot be known. It is the antithesis of everything American and Western, human really, to think this way.
I regard it as a character defect that so many (people in general ala jerry springer) think it is ok to even think about trying to know or effect anothers thoughts. And to apply judgment to this person for the imagined offending thought. That can only be based on fear and insecurity. Normal free people who beleive in the freedom of man do not need to know and even want to know what another is thinking unless they are part of their lives. And even then they are ALWAYS aware that we can only know what a person tells us and what a person does, anything further is all imagination no matter how many correlative factors one can point to. Yes we can use these correlations to inform our personal behavior but should never use them to infringe on another.
The current examples that prove the point of this evolution in Western thinking and are the basis for the thinking that became America that I can point to immediately are the poor SOB who found that bomb at the olympics in Atlanta and the other poor SOB who the FBI was so sure commited the anthrax attacks and gave us the evil undermineing and wholly intentionally ambiguous expression "person of interest". Everyone just "knew" these guys did it in spite of the lack of evidence. They destroyed these men's lives based on an imaginary fear based reaction to correlative information.

This is the kind of crap you get when you just "know" something is true. Or you think you know what someone "really" means as if that adjective in front of mean makes mean mean more when in fact it completely destroys the meaning of mean and makes the entire statement ambiguous and open to whatever interpretation the strongest mind present wants it to fit.

By all means study away people but please the rest of us lets not forget we are human and fallible and we can only know what we see and hear ourselves everything else is based on beleif and trust in things we don't know haven't been corrupted unless we checked them ourselves.

So Biological basis may mean something different than orientation as I originally ass-u-me d but it still only will give a correlative indication. Please do not let your personal investment in the issue cloud your reason and condem uncounted innocent future people to be subject to all manner of personal invasions because they were unfortunate enough to have these correlative indicators.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#332702 - 06/01/10 01:08 PM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: Marinan]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
I'm all for research for the sake of a better understanding of pedophilia, BUT, BUT, BUT!

People always seem to think all of this offender stuff will stop CSA. I say it won't, won't, won't. Don't confuse this. Most CSA occurs in secret. Most isn't caught. No matter what we do or know about the offenders we catch will do anything about the ones we don't know about yet. Sure a small number of offenders are prevented from abusing--terrific--but it's a small fraction. Let's stop all of it.

THUS. The other option is to make kids "unabusable" so to speak. The victim and the perp are the only people who know about the abuse in most cases. One of them has to act to interrupt the abuse. Very few perps will come forward and ask for help, especially if they face prison. So that leaves the child. I want research into creating "pretective measures" for children. This seems so obvious to me now, and so key. The focus on offenders always seems to obscure this key observation.

When a kid immediately tells about some abuse, I want to know, "How did he/she do that!" Understand that. If a kid avoids abuse that's attempted, understand what leads a kid to do that! This seems to be the only way to truely stop CSA. Since parents and family abuse, this training also needs to come from outside the family somehow.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#332768 - 06/02/10 11:44 AM Re: Biological basis for pedophilia? [Re: LandOfShadow]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I think you've got something there LOS

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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