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#187989 - 10/19/07 10:54 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: RICK57

This topic has been here live on this site many times! Will someone please give me one valid reason why we must forgive a perverted paedophile for what they did.


Forgiveness isn't about letting someone off the hook. It's not about about them. It's about you. Forgiveness, for me, is selfish. For me, it's an acknowledgement that what was done to me no longer controls me. It's like the old saying "forgive and forget". I can forgive, but I will never forget.

I am a devout agnostic, Rick. I refuse to believe anything that cannot be proven. I do know one thing, though. My life has gotten a lot better since I have started trying to forgive the people who have messed me up. I don't anticipate I'll ever be able to completely forgive my mother, but to me...it's the one power I have over her. But holding on to that power only makes me more like her; therefore, I'm trying to release it. That is a work in progress.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#187991 - 10/19/07 11:04 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
MarkK - we've had this topic many times, and some of us have been practically called 'sons of satan' because we either cannot forgive, or refuse to forgive. It's almost as though we are the guilty ones for being abused, which we all know is not true. The only people that should feel guilty are the abusers.

I took the paedophile (English spelling) that abused myself and others to court, and observed his behaviour over 3 decades after the event/s. He has zero remorse regarding what he did to either myself or others that presented a case against him.

Once the court case was over, that should have been it, but as he denied what he had done / admitted what he had done to achieve a reduced sentence, then denied it again, the only thing I really care about him now is finding out that he has died. I would like to ask him why he did what he did before then, but I do not walk around every day wanting to do this.

I have a decent life now, and that is what is important. I will dance the day I know he is dead & I will enjoy a decent bottle of champagne. I've said it every time this post appears, the only time I get strung up about forgiveness is when someone tells me 'I am not a whole person until I do so'. Sorry, but for me that is just so much more rubbish than I can accept' Of all the people on this planet, the only energy I should be applying to abusers now, is to get them arrested and jailed! Forgive them? NO!!!

I appreciate the other argument, that unless you forgive, you do not let go...we have had many dictionary definitions here before, and forgiveness basically means that you no longer hold the perpetrator to account, nor seek any retribution for what they have done. That means accepting that it is OK for paedophiles to continue abusing children!

Best wishes ...Rik

As for 'the vote' - I am starting 2 new topics about now.

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#187992 - 10/19/07 11:09 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
i've not seen anyone called anything close to a "son of satan" because they don't forgive - for any reason. but i apologize if i've ever said anything that would lead you or anyone to that conclusion.

honestly, however, i like i've been chopped to bits for believing that forgiveness is right for me. like i'm some demented idiot because i found value in it.

and if we can't have a topic countless times - then what? we start policing now? say ... after 100 times we can no longer discuss a certain topic? or just a given viewpoint - but opposites are ok?

sorry - i have to quit now. i'm so upset i can hardly find the keyboard.

but, for what it's worth - my forgiving does NOT mean i'm saying it's right for ANY one to be abused. just for the record.


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#187996 - 10/19/07 11:35 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: RICK57
forgiveness basically means that you no longer hold the perpetrator to account, nor seek any retribution for what they have done. That means accepting that it is OK for paedophiles to continue abusing children!


Yes, it means that you no longer hold the perp to account. Yes, it means that you no longer seek retribution. No, it does not mean that it is okay for the perp to continue to abuse children.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#187998 - 10/19/07 11:46 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
MarkK - my words are only text, there is no anger in them, they are only words. We can have a topic as many times as we want- every single one of us can make whatver comments we feel that we should, so long as we do not intentionally insult someone else (myself included).

I have not set out to 'chop you to bits', and there is NO WAY THAT I DO NOT WANT YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU FEEL HERE.
I do not personally think that you think it is OK for anyone to be abused, but this topic has been raised so many times (and I and others have been practically told that we are evil because we cannot forgive in the past). *I joined in Dec 2003
You have no reason to apologise at all - I was merely tryin to respond to your question about 'putting it to the vote', a topic for which I have raised 2 new posts.

The topic of forgiveness always seems to cause fall out, because people interpret the topic in different ways.

My point that I always try to put across, is that there are much more important things in my life than forgiving the paedophile (and if it's not really about forgiving the paedophile, but myself, then what have I to forgive myself about).

This is the way I can best describe it:

In the morning, should I get up out of bed and think. I need to do some forgiveness today (I am not trying to be sarcastic even if it sounds like I am).

No- It'll be more like the following:
1/ I'll wake up (hopefully).
2/ I'll set the shower running so that the water runs warm.
3/ Whilst the shower is warming up, I'll put some porridge in the microwave and warm some coffee.
4/ Get out of shower, eat breakfast, drink coffee, read newspaper, watch news on television.
5/ Telephone Niece / Goddaughter / Goddson / friends etc.
6/ Demolish patio wall
7/ Clear debris
8/ Eat something
9/ Build new wall

See, what I'm trying to get at there, is that there's a life to be lived, forgiving a paedophile doesn't come into it!

If what you really mean by forgiving, is letting go, then see 1 to 9. The best way you let go is by living!

My personal experience is that you can put it to the back of your mind for so long, but that is not forgiving. Neither is it really forgetting, because it comes back and bites you.

The other thing I would say, is always read what is posted several times, to check that the post is written in the way that it appears to be on first reading.

Best wishes ...RIk (and keep posting)

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#188001 - 10/19/07 11:57 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Bryan - see this is where the discussion could go on forever by the way that we interpret words.

By not holding a perp to account, nor seeking retribution, it does mean that they are free to continue abusing children (even if you do not consider it is OK for them to do so). I do have some guilt over that subject, because I personally took over 30 years to actually go to the police. That is the one thing that I can associate forgiveness to myself with - the fact that I was the first person to come forward even though many others had been abused and not come forward. Regarding the actual abuse that I was subject to, then I have nothing to forgive myself about, nor will I ever forgive the abuser.

I'm logging off now (UK), so I'm not ignoring anyone, it's just late here).

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#188003 - 10/20/07 12:11 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Rick,

My intentions in incarcerating anyone, even people who abuse children, is to protect society...not to punish the person who abused. That is why I still feel that some kind of consequences are still required dispite the fact that my intention is to not hold the perp accountable for her transgressions towards me.

That being said, I think the reason why this topic continues to come up is because it is an important one. It sounds like it's an important one to you, as well. Just know this. I will never judge you for your ability or inability to forgive even though I might try to convince you to at least try.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#188009 - 10/20/07 02:09 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Woundedheart]
scotia1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Well guys it seems that each person has their own version of what forgiveness is. Personally I don’t understand any other version other than if someone asked me “do you forgive me”. I would reply “ yes I do forgive you” or “no I don’t forgive you”. Or perhaps “maybe”. However, how can you really forgive someone such as a paedophile that doesn’t think he/she has done anything wrong? Someone that thinks it is natural and normal to have sex with children? Truly guys, how can we forgive someone for this?

This post (by Oarc) is about healing, not forgiving. It is about the victims recovering. It is not about forgiving the paedophile for what he/she did!

When a child is sexually assaulted it has many many affects on that child. As the child becomes an adult, it also has profound affects on the variety of people that child (survivor) comes in contact with. The prep (Paedophile, rapist, etc) has done great harm. It is not something we or society as a whole can simply say “you are forgiven for molesting a child”. The harm is deep, and forever lastly. This is not something to forgive so easily, or to pass it on as to say “please don’t do it again”

After a 15+ year legal struggle I finally have my prep behind bars, and awaiting trial. After 35+ years of dealing with my CSA I am finally getting close to meeting my abuser head on. My day in court is finally near.

After countless psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, lawyers, police and politicians, and I am still here standing. Just the other day someone asked me “if your abuser asked you for forgiveness what would you say”. My answer was “I don’t know”. The reason simply is, after dealing with this issue head on for so so long, I realise one thing “it was not my fault”. It was totally my abusers fault because I was a child, and adults are totally responsible for such behaviour. That is was counts. Once you realise this guys, you will not have to contemplate “should I forgive my abuser”. He/she did wrong, do did nothing wrong at all, and it all comes down to that.

The day at hand is nearing. I will be in the fighting for you guys and for all victims of CSA. My prep has molested many many children. Does he really deserve forgiveness? Time will tell.

Take Care,

Scotia


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#188015 - 10/20/07 06:39 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: scotia1]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Alas, the definition of forgivenss that I favor in this context is "To renounce anger or resentment against". This not only has absolutely nothing to do with how the perp feels, achieving this state is essential to my healing.



Edited by BJK (10/20/07 06:43 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#188017 - 10/20/07 06:57 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
SEVEN ARROWS Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 1298
I cannot and never will use the word forgivness, to those that abused me.
This is something i can never forgive someone for.


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