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#187822 - 10/18/07 03:57 PM Masturbation and Spirituality
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11021
Loc: Denver, CO
A topic located on the public side here has prompted me to raise the question on the spirituality side. Many believe masturbation (here-on as M cuz I hate typing out so many letters) to be sinful. I for one have never believed it to be specifically a sin, and here is part of my reasoning on this: In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul talked about being married versus being single. He stated at one point that if one "cannot exercise self-control, then that one should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Well, what if someone cannot find someone else to marry? Or what if a person is not in any emotional place to marry? If M is a sin, are they supposed to just "burn" all the time with passion?

Feedback, please.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#187823 - 10/18/07 04:05 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Good topic, Andy.

The way I had it explained to me is it depends on what is in your heart/mind while M. If you are thinking of the pleasure, what's happening, the enjoyment - there is no problem. However, if you're thinking about taking advantage of another - fantasizing of a person already married, etc - then there is a problem.

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

I think that says it all ... for me anyhoo-- my 2 cents.

M


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#187829 - 10/18/07 05:50 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: MarkK]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
Well Andy I dont know what brought this subject up. Jesus said if a man Lusts after a woman then he has sinned. I guess like all guys over the age of 50 we were taught that masterbation was wrong and we would go blind ect......
when God made us we were made perfict but over the years we have found it nessary to relive ourselfs...If we do not then God takes over and does it for us (what we call a wet dream) If it is right or wrong I dont really know. It will not send me to Hell Im sure of that.

_________________________
Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#187839 - 10/18/07 07:23 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: wojax]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
The argument I've always heard within the church against masturbation is taken from Genesis, regarding the story of Onan. His brother died, so according to the law of the time he was required to sleep with his brother's wife in order to impregnate her and continue his brother's family line. However, Onan didn't want to impregnate her so he "spilled his seed on the ground". God was angry about this and struck him down. That "spilled his seed on the ground" could be taken a couple of different ways -- one is that he "pulled out" before orgasm and spilled it that way. Another is that he simply masturbated instead of having sex with her. Either way, Onan was exhibiting rebellion against God by his actions, which is the point of the story.

My own belief is as Mark stated above -- it depends upon the heart and mind at the time of the act.

_________________________
Eddie

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#187851 - 10/18/07 08:55 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: EGL]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Interesting topic to be sure...........

And, in Eddie's example above it was not considered a sin to sleep with your dead brother's wife even tho you are not married to her. Now there's something that seemingly goes directly against other counsel given in the Scriptures.

From that example we see that as humans we have a tendency to pick and choose what passages in the Bible are to be strictly adhered to and which ones don't really matter so much. With that in mind I'm gonna chime in and agree with Mark and Eddie. If I'm busy wanking away over my neighbor's wife, it may not be a good idea. Reason being is I've noticed that when I do such things I find actions are often close behind and those actions can lead to the destruction of families. Not so great.

On the other hand if I'm simply enjoying my own body.... I don't see the problem.

One other thing.

In the passage Andy quoted I've always felt that was Paul speaking to couples telling them that they need to quit "burning with passion" and get married already. It never dawned on me that he was talking about "M". I don't believe he is, but perhaps I'm wrong.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#187853 - 10/18/07 09:16 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: WalkingSouth]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: walkingsouth

On the other hand...


Freudian slip there, John? \:\)

_________________________
Eddie

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#187855 - 10/18/07 09:42 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: EGL]
FLRich Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 1404
Speaking of hands....I figure God made the length of our arms and hands to be able to reach our penises. What the Hell else are we supposed to do with them? If we can reach 'em, the all knowing God Almighty knows we are going to play with 'em!!


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#187861 - 10/18/07 10:02 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FLRich]
WalkingSouth Offline
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tsk, tsk, Eddie! You're the one that thought of this one! I'm the one laughing at your humor! \:D

Definitely not a Freudian slip since I'm not particular embarrassed about the conversation. Funny none the less, now you bring it up!

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#187862 - 10/18/07 10:09 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: EGL]
Pete2004 Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 958
Loc: North Carolina
Guys... my 2 cents worth.... I was single for 33 years, dealing with all this (including CSA issues without knowing what I was dealing with), looking to be married, craving a family, trying to be celibate to honor my Faith, all the while "burning with passion". So, Andy, I relate brother.

In retrospect, the big M for the most part was my acting out. I was sexualized at an early age and lived with the compulsive M most of my life and trying to ignore the guilty feelings.

Guys, usually the big M compulsion stems from the CSA and the resulting underlying issues it causes. As Christian guys dealing with CSA issues, we need to learn to live in a continual state of Grace with a deep understanding that God, through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, forgives us. EVERY TIME we fail! Jesus was tempted in every way, so He just understands the frailty of our flesh and bones. When we fail, He is ready and able to forgive, so just let Him forgive and move on....Don't let this issue pull you down, discourage you or cause you to withdraw from God...or divert your attention from continuing to deal with the underlying CSA issues. There are greater issues to deal with which as they are settled, the big M issue diminishes as well.

I wouldn't get hung up over that Old Testament issue with Onan, it had more to do with his refusal to honor God and his dead brother by not giving him an heir (complicated stuff) than actually spilling his seed on the ground.

Again, my 2 cents worth,

Peter

_________________________
There is a destiny that makes us brothers;
No one goes his way alone;
What we send into the lives of others,
comes back into our own. (Edwin Markham)

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#187865 - 10/18/07 11:12 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Pete2004]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
not currently Christian, but not ignorant either
I agree, it would not be easy to live literally by Leviticus. If the OT was pre>
_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#187867 - 10/18/07 11:47 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
Frog Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
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Loc: Arizona
THERE IS NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE TO MASTERBATION IN THE ENTIRE
BIBLE...ONAN'S SIN WAS TO "PULL OUT" AND DUMP HIS LOAD...NOT
MASTERBATION....

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

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#187878 - 10/19/07 01:15 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Frog]
testingWaters Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
No offense to anyone, but the idea that any religion would ask me not to feel joy in self-love is really suspect.

Jerking off can become compulsive, sure, but the underlying problem is the same as with alcohol, drugs, shopping, the internet, etc. -- being compulsive as a way to deal with pain.


FYI: Also from Leviticus, "1. God told Moses to sacrifice the first born of humans and animals to him." No thanks.


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#187881 - 10/19/07 01:56 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: testingWaters]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11021
Loc: Denver, CO
John,

"In the passage Andy quoted I've always felt that was Paul speaking to couples telling them that they need to quit "burning with passion" and get married already. It never dawned on me that he was talking about "M". I don't believe he is, but perhaps I'm wrong. "

I don't believe the passage is talking about M. To me it's simply saying that it's better to marry than to burn with passion. My hangup is, what if one can't fulfill this "better way?" What if they do not have the means to unite with a member of the other gender in marriage? Is burning with passion the hopeless fate then of one who cannot marry? Isn't M a solution to burning with passion? I'm assuming with my question.

A

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#187883 - 10/19/07 02:29 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
pietie Offline
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Registered: 01/23/07
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Loc: South Africa
This is an isue that has been haunting me for many years.

Scriptures quoted about Onan refer to the old testament. I see myself as a person living by grace and not under the law any longer.

I agree with what was said above. When M what do you think about? Do you lust after the neighbour's wife or whoever. To me then it becomes sin. Then it is wrong.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#187885 - 10/19/07 02:46 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: pietie]
testingWaters Offline
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
But wait a minute, since I am not a Christian maybe I should refrain, but thoughts are just thoughts, and fantasies too. I love my girlfriend so, so much, but when I think about someone else when M, its just a fantasy. I don't really want to act on it.

I find this whole discussion so unsettling. Let's say you do think about your neighbor's wife. So? Trying not to think or fantasize about almost anything gives that thing or fantasy so much power over you. Aren't *actions* what really matter?

Sorry if I am getting in the way here. Just my two cents.....


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#187965 - 10/19/07 08:24 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: testingWaters]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
TW,

You raise a valid point. For me, I find that when I allow the fantasy of my neighbor's wife, or the hot guy down the street to get out of control my relationship with my wife suffers as a result. I guess that is my answer to your question, "So?" I for one, am not saying the occasional stray fantasy is the issue so much as the continual one. I value my relationship with my wife enough to at least attempt to give her all of me, not the leftovers from all my other fantasies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to Andy's original question, I think what it boils down to is that this is a question you must answer in your own time in a way that is acceptable to you. I'm in agreement with the sentiment expressed by some here that there's not a problem with M as long as it doesn't take a person to an area that they believe to be "sin".

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#187985 - 10/19/07 10:34 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Masturbation doesn't bother me at all - not in any spiritual sense and not in any other way. But the issue does interest me for several points:

1) The Bible refers to many things that we would no longer agree to use as a basis for managing our lives. Those passages are by common (if tacit) consent seen as referring to the beliefs of a certain time and place in ancient history only. Do any of us believe that epilepsy is caused by demonic possession, for example?

2) That said, there is nothing in the Bible about masturbation, as Frog has already noted.

3) I wonder how many young or not so young shepherds in OT times masturbated to the thought of the Song of Songs, which is sexual poetry pure and simple but one of the most beautiful parts of the OT.

4) Modern or at least non-original views or doctrines of the various Christian confessions are reflected in the translations they produce of the Bible. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" as opposed to "Thou shalt not commit murder" (the Hebrew supports the latter); or the many difficulties involved in translating Greek terms that refer to passion/lust/love/devotion/affection/intimacy.

5) If God is all-wise, all-loving, all-knowing and so forth (and if he isn't, what's the point of religion?), then it seems to me absolutely certain that he also has a sense of priorities in which whether or not guys masturbate is of zero importance.

Andy, I think it's great you're a man of faith but okay with the idea of masturbating and don't see it as a sin. It's a healthy and normal sexual outlet and even guys who are in a good solid marriage or other sexual relationship still do it.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#188018 - 10/20/07 06:58 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: roadrunner]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
As a seventh grader going through the process of Catholic Confirmation, I will never foget the lesson we received on Onan's Law.

One Wednesday a month, we had a class to learn of the Sacrament of Confirmation. Part of this class every month was Mass. In seventh grade, the topic of Confirmation class was the Catholic version of sex education. One Wednesday, during Mass, the priest elected to talk about Onan's Law for a full hour. He tried to shame and scare us into not masturbating. He spent an hour trying to tell us how God could strike us dead at any time and then send us to hell for the simple act of pleasing ourselves.

There were about 40 boys and 40 girls in this class, and I'll never know if anyone else there was as terrified as I was. I had just learned about masturbation on my own, and I truthfully thought I was the only one who was doing it. I was so terrified, I went almost two years before I dared to do it again. That coincided with completely losing my desire to live, so it is obvious that my resuming my masturbatory habits was not healthy.

The odd part about all of this is the fact that this priest, soon therafter, was in court defending himself against charges of sexually abusing a boy I knew.

As a devout agnostic, I can only hope that if God does exist (which is something I doubt), he gives me a little bit of credit for trying to be a good person. However, my view is that if masturbation is a sin, then God is evil.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#188021 - 10/20/07 07:29 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: BJK]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Bryan,

I do have to give my church a lot of credit in this area. In our youth fellowship group, which met on Sunday evenings, each session was devoted to a topic according to a schedule we had all agreed on at the beginning of the school year. One evening it would be "capital punishment", another would be "hunting", some other time it would be "drinking", "parents", or whatever. And every year we would of course include sex.

I think I was 13 when the youth leader decided to really do it right. He gave a talk on sex, then we were separated into boys' and girls' groups to ask questions, then back together for a general discussion. I don't think I will ever forget what happened in the boys group that night. One kid asked, "What's fellatio?", so the youth leader told us. I had never heard the word so I was curious too. But when he described it and all the boys were disgusted and said "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww, gross", and other such things, I felt totally humiliated, rejected and shamed. I had been doing that for years, of course, and I knew that after fellowship I would be doing it again, like I did every Sunday after fellowship. It was part of my routine, and now I get reminded how different and alone I was.

I know this is veering off topic, but I think it's useful to notice that how we feel about such things can get real complicated if we try to view the religious, sexual and abuse aspects all at once. Maybe we will get a better perspective is we keep them separate.

For instance, it helps me as a spiritual guy to see, and accept, that my church - as the church - was actually very progressive for that time and in touch with my concerns as a teenager. It was abuse and the abuser who messed things up and created all the distortions and confusion I still feel in this area.

I know, however, that this would not apply in your own case. It's dismaying to see such an important force in people's lives insist on being the source of such unnecessary harm.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#188031 - 10/20/07 11:42 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
Paul1959 Offline
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Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 525
Loc: NYC
Ya know what I find interesting, is that I was raised son of a very conservative Baptist minister. We were NEVER told masturbating was a sin. As mentioned, lust was always the problem. So, if you were told M was a sin, it was not universal to the Christian faith. I know Catholics still have a hard time with it (HA - pun intended) but

I think this is more victorian ethos oozing into religious discomfort. Even the puritans were very comfortable with their sexuality in the bonds of marriage - (the Scarlet Letter was not a documentary and it dealt with hypocrisy and adultery anyway) But as we tell students, as long as you are not substituting relationsips and normal activities for masturbating, you are normal and healthy. I think there will be periods we all go through where we need to relieve the pressure physically even several times a day. But in my mind, better to do that, than let a horny thought become real behavior.
On the other hand, nice to save it for the wife too...hmmm...it's saturday....
Paul


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#188054 - 10/20/07 02:13 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Paul1959]
Woundedheart Offline
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Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 31
Loc: K.C. MO.
For me, masturbation is an expression of my self-centeredness. My searching to fill a hole in my soul that only God can fill. It never leaves me satistified, it's never enough. It steals an opportunity for my wife to serve, if she so chooses and I chose to share my felt need.

Richard.


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#188058 - 10/20/07 02:21 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Woundedheart]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11021
Loc: Denver, CO
WH,

I hear you about the wife scenario. The trouble with some of the men on this site, and in other walks of life, is that finding and desiring a woman to marry seems like such a far stretch of imagination. What does that leave, other than "burning with passion?"

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#188061 - 10/20/07 02:39 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
Woundedheart Offline
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Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 31
Loc: K.C. MO.
Andy,

I wish I had the answers. I know that I've used marriage as a hiding place from my abuse. Maybe that's why I'm on the fourth one. It's a bad deal anywhere you are.

Richard.


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#188066 - 10/20/07 03:12 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Woundedheart]
testingWaters Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I wholly respect people's faith, but for posterity, just from a mental health standpoint -- masturbation is rather definitively considered a healthy activity and an important part of one's sexuality and ability to self-love.


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#190633 - 11/09/07 05:01 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: testingWaters]
thesun3 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 49
Masturbation can blind one to the reality of relating to others
IF it is used to get over loneliness, despair, fear of rejection, or boredom. I was seduced by my abusers with masturbation and pornography. I believe there is a healthy expression of masturbation, but its kida tough when its linked to my abuse. I'm working on it though. I don't think Masturbation is sinful, but it can become disordered.

_________________________
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.
Camus

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#191122 - 11/12/07 09:54 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
River Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
I am curious. Do you think their is such a thing as Big M and little M? For me, the issue is not Masturbation... the issue is Lust. For me lust has to do with sexualizing another person in a manner that undressed them... maybe even have sex with that perosn in my mind. I have heard the phrase sexual cannabilism used before... and I think that is a good way to describe it. There is a different between noticing someone attractive and making the observation that the person is attractive and lusting after that person. If I take it further than observing a persons beauty, I am probably violating that persons boundaries by sexualizing that person.

I believe there can be such a thing as healthy masturbation. I believe this is where my Christianity has fucked me up in the past. It is healthy for me to explore my body in an unshaming way... especially as I work through sexual trauma, for example. Healthy masturbation CAN BE a very healthy, healing thing for a lot of men (and women). Hear me correctly, this is a lot different thatn compulsive masturbation that is loaded with lust that unhealthy thoughts and images.

What is really sad for me to see are guys, especially single guys with no outlet other than masturbation, who go for extended periods and then engage in "shameful masturbation" (as defined by religion) and then spend the next few weeks in "shameful confession" and "shameful repentence." Why is there sooooo MUCH shame attached? Well, it has to do with what we have been taught by religion.

And I really believe this type of teaching is not conducive to shame-free recovery. I have received too much shame from my perpetrator. I refuse to receive any additional shame from religion. Which is what I have to have.

What we are talking about her guys is healthy sexuality.

on a lighter, more humourous note:
LOL.... when I was 15/16 years, I was riding in a car-load of teen-agers, my mother at the wheel of the car and another parent in the front seat. They were talking about how wonderful the youth pastor's lesson on masturbation was the the youth ralley we were returning from. A comment was made about what a great job he did at explaining the concept of masturbation is sin. It pissed me off! I screamed at the top of my lungs, in front of the other parent, in front of the other teen-agers in the car.... MASTURBATION IS NOT SIN! It got very quiet in the car. The topic of masturbation was never brought up by my mother or father ever again.

I guess I knew the truth.. even then. Lust is the problem for me.. not masturbation. Lust takes from me and takes from others. Masturbation can actually be a very nurturing, healthy thing. But, I am sure there are those who will disagree... and that's okay.

Peace.
From Shame unto Grace.



Edited by River (11/12/07 10:10 AM)
_________________________
GD

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#191131 - 11/12/07 10:39 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: River]
thesun3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 49
Hello River:
Masturbation wasn't a big deal until our 7th grade teacher (I attended a private chirstian school) gave us a lecture about masturbation and sin. Masturbation was never the same since. Before the lecture masturbation was something I did in private, after the lecture, I had a captivated audience when I masturbated: God above, my guardian angel in the closet, and the devil under my bed. Shame and guilt were intensified 100%.

_________________________
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.
Camus

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#191144 - 11/12/07 01:44 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: thesun3]
River Offline
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Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
That is the kind of stuff that can really affect us as adults. Totally relate.

_________________________
GD

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#191210 - 11/12/07 08:07 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: River]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Hi all. I forgot about this thread. I thought I would share with you that I'm in the middle of uncharted territory. I have purposefully forgone Ming at all since mid-September, and for one reason only, that being that I can't M without having "unhealthy" or harmful thoughts as I do it.

I've never done this before. I'm in my 7th week without any kind of sex whatsoever. Yes, I'm a little charged up, but I noticed that I reached a plateau of my sexually charged state in the later part of the second week. It's not getting any worse. At least I can walk around among my co-workers, friends, and family and know that I'm not Ming while thinking of things that would bring condemnation upon me if they knew what I was thinking of. But that's not the only reason, I'm trying anything I can to like myself, and if this is one of those things that will help, then I'll do without it.

I gotta tell you though, this is totally new for me. Have any of you guys purposefully went without Ming for the same reasons? Just curious.


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#191216 - 11/12/07 08:27 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Hauser]
River Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
Yes, I have gone for extended periods without masturbation and sexual intercourse with my wife, of course, with her agreement and understanding. What I experienced was a period of "withdrawal" in which by physiological mechanism adjusted and balanced out. I experienced my first nocturnal emission as an adult during this period of my sexual healing. It also afforded some awesome non-sexual intimacy with my wife, which played a role in increased intimacy and an improved sex life once the period of abstinence ended (LOL, we need to do this again!). But, I believe the overall benefit was coming to an understanding of sex truly being optional in my life. In other words, it is not something I have to have. It shifted it from a "have to" to a really being "icing on the cake" as we experience intimacy in our relationship. There is probably more that I cannot think of... I will add it to the thread if I remember some more.

Peace

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#191272 - 11/13/07 11:03 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: River]
thesun3 Offline
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Well put River & Hauser.
Masturbating can get out of control and knock whatever is normal out the window. My problem is two-fold. Masturbation and Porn. I won't do one without the other. I decided to stop because I realized how it was desroying my capacity to be intimate with my wife and taking too much time from work.
I too want to understand sex as "optional"..."icing on the cake"...rather than a form of escapism.....
I have an understanding sponsor and I am working on a healthier expression of my sexuality.
God...the abuse really screwed me up......
Good to read your posts River and Hauser..and keep up the good work.

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#191296 - 11/13/07 03:08 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Hauser]
Darren Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hauser

I've never done this before. I'm in my 7th week without any kind of sex whatsoever.


I've done this twice, Hauser, but never made it to seven weeks! I'm impressed. Once was at a Christian summer camp and I lasted two weeks before I couldn't stand it anymore. Second I made a pact with my Christian room-mate to abstain for as long as possible; think I lasted 3 weeks, but I lasted longer than he did! Can't believe I'm writing about this, but your post brought back some bitter-sweet memories of trying to live a more wholesome life as a born-again Christian. Of course I'm deeply steeped in sin now. No going back for me I'm afraid! \:\) Seriously, though, even as a Christian, I found no tangible benefit to abstaining from Ming, except perhaps for the mind-blowing orgasm that I experienced upon resuming! \:\)

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#191331 - 11/13/07 09:28 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: River]
bp83 Offline
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I went for a whole year without masturbating when I was 16!!! But only because I had a messed up view of God and thought I'd go to hell for it.



Edited by bp83 (11/13/07 09:28 PM)
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#191421 - 11/14/07 06:50 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: bp83]
Darren Offline
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Wow Scott, that's amazing... especially being 16 and raging with hormones. You get the Ming abstinence award!

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#191435 - 11/14/07 08:10 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: bp83]
BJK Offline
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Originally Posted By: bp83
I went for a whole year without masturbating when I was 16!!! But only because I had a messed up view of God and thought I'd go to hell for it.


From age 13 to 14, I abstained from masturbating completely after what the Catholic church preached about it. That was a span of time longer than a year and a half...shorter than two years.

I went almost three months this past Summer because I was in too deep of a depression to even contemplate doing anything that would make me feel good.

Lately, it's been a once a week thing, mostly just to prevent the dreams.

Bryan

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#191639 - 11/16/07 04:16 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Woundedheart]
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Richard, I hear you.
I was always taught that mastb would lead to loss of sight, and it is punishable by God's Laws.

Medically mb is good for the reproductive system to function normally.
Not masturbating is noted for heightening the risk of various cancers, as the body finds it harder to release dead cells.

God doesnt give us these gifts, if by chance we cannot find normal pleasurable ways etc., that we should be told not to mb.
You have probably paid your penance a thousend fold, as the ancients say,

ste

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#191649 - 11/16/07 07:20 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: reality2k4]
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This thread kind of disturbed me. I don't mean to offend, but I felt pretty far out of left-field in my own view on this.

Work, masturbating, drinking, doing drugs, invading other countries pre-emptively: all these things can become compulsive attempts to run from what hurts. But so can obsessing about not doing them.

I used to jerk off compulsively. Many times a day even. And I chose to stop for a while because I felt like I was so deadened that I didn't even know what really moved me sexually anymore. When I stopped, I started feeling like a sexual being again, ironically. And while that was frightening at first, it was very healthy too.

But, questions of faith aside, I cannot fathom how anyone could feel guilt about touching his or her own body. It just seems so violent that anyone external, any authority figure or institution, could actually come between oneself and their body.

To me at least.


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#191652 - 11/16/07 08:30 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: testingWaters]
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Anyone who is raised without religious indoctrination is likely not to understand the whole Catholic/ Christian guilt thing. I had to explain it to my partner when we first met because it was an odd phenomenon for him. He was not raised in any religion. He was astonished to find that there's this whole group of people that go through life carrying all this guilt around about various things. So you should count yourself lucky that you can't fathom all this guilt stuff.

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#191660 - 11/16/07 10:07 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Darren]
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Thanks for the thought Darren, I will take it to heart as you are very correct that trying to fathom the effects of a religious upbrining can be tough......


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#191678 - 11/17/07 06:25 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: testingWaters]
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I have noticed that since I have opened up about about my abuse I no longer have a compulsive desire to masturbate like I did for so many years. I have not stopped but its not a blind drive to the porn site. I too had a Christian guilt factor working on me but the last time I masturbated was pure bliss, no porn no guilt no fantasy just me enjoying the feeling. This was the first time I experienced feeling good about giving pleasure to myself. It used to be always followed by guilt and shame. Now that I am no longer carrying around all my secrets of CSA the guilt and shame are are becoming less and less.
FYI: I have not gone blind..lol

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#191679 - 11/17/07 08:30 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: GateKPR4]
Darren Offline
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Originally Posted By: GateKPR4
I have noticed that since I have opened up about about my abuse I no longer have a compulsive desire to masturbate


I have noticed this with me, too. I still do it, but much less often -- it's like I've been set free of the need to do it.

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#191686 - 11/17/07 10:43 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Darren]
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May as well chime in here and say "me too". There's something about breaking the silence that relieves the tension and compulsivity of it...

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#191726 - 11/17/07 04:38 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
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Andy, mb is not a sin, if it were, then it would also forbid women to do it, which of course it does.
I used to do it as a kid until I was pretty sore, and felt like just another w*nker.

Its all part of the cycle of guilt, against spirituality.
Its just another part of blaming yourself for abuse, and denying your natural bodily reaction, of being sexually aroused, and fulfilling that need.

It is quite natural, believe me,

ste

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#191749 - 11/17/07 09:24 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: reality2k4]
GateKPR4 Offline
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I'm glad that I'm not alone with this. It has been so many years since I felt this way it actually feels abnormal, but not in a bad way. I hope to continue healing and experiencing this new emotional life I am discovering.

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#191778 - 11/18/07 10:14 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: GateKPR4]
FormerTexan Offline
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ste,

I agree, the act itself is not a sin. The thoughts that accompany it though can be sinful if not kept in check. My original complaint was that if a man cannot marry, is he supposed to just "burn with passion" every day of his life? (1 Corinthians 7)

Andy

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#191802 - 11/18/07 02:29 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
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I think it's also important to note the apostle Paul did not say burning with passion was sin or bad or wrong - just that it was better to be married. He also said he wished all were like him, and single.

We've talked a lot about masturbation not being a sin. Neither is "burning with desire". Again - it's the heart that matters.

my 2 cents

M


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#191812 - 11/18/07 04:30 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
reality2k4 Offline
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Andy, burning with passion is all I thought from early teens to now. But, if I fulfil that passion, I would have to be totally sure that the woman would be able to take me for all my, or her faults.

Who? Wants to burn in the fire of my passion I wondered!
MB, is not a sin, because I struggled with this one for many years, and have came to the conclusion that God gave us a body to enjoy, and he would not want us not to witness or embrace affection in our lives as broken kids.

"Blessed are my children".
We are still all, "lamb of God".

You are too,

ste

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#191828 - 11/18/07 06:25 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: reality2k4]
FormerTexan Offline
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Mark,

I agree. Burning with passion itself is not a sin, but like any "burning" in life it is an unpleasant, unfulfilling circumstance.

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#191849 - 11/18/07 10:40 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
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Agreed, Andy. We just don't need to add guilt to something where there should be no guilt.

M


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#192225 - 11/22/07 04:43 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: MarkK]
reality2k4 Offline
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Andy, we are just doting on our past, when sex was thrust upon us, like a weapon, with no sign of love or affection attached.
Spiritually, or medically, it is a way of keeping the body free of toxic things that can build up.

Womens' bodies do it normally in fertility.

There does not appear to be a reference directly in the Bible regarding mb.
God said. "Thou shalt not cast thy seed on stony ground".

That refers to a whole load of things, if you think about it, but it is not related to mb.

We need to go back and think about the little boy who suffered, and how he survived through all the extra challenges in life.
You and all of us, need to shake that little kid like mad, hug him, and say he is free of his past ["GUILT"!/]

Wot a Word, that is????

ste

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#192230 - 11/22/07 05:27 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: reality2k4]
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I've promised myself to not masturbate anymore ...lots of reasons already posted here. It breaks real intimacy with my wife and it throws open doors I don't need to go into with fantasies and all. We recently had a new baby, so we've not had sex in a while either. I get very horny and anything or anyone looks like a great place to start, but I haven't ....been about 100 days and i can't believe it has been as difficult ans refreshing as it is.... I can see that I actually can control my body.

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#232474 - 06/21/08 09:58 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: FormerTexan]
Sans Logos Offline
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hi, i changed the subject, because the practice of mindful masturbation is one of the greatest spiritual gifts i give myself, and in that sense it is related to spirituality, which is not to be confused with religion. all things in moderation....

the culture interprets>
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#232480 - 06/21/08 11:01 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
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i once joined a catholic site on the internet (i am not catholic, i told them so), only one reason, to research this question, basically, people will try not to, but they all do it, and this was a hardcore YOU WILL GO TO HELL catholic site, and i followed the discussion for about a month, followed the ups and downs of people trying not to masturbate and finally finding everybody coming to the subtle conclusion that, ok, masturbation can be good for you too, lets sweep this under the carpet kind of thing, lets keep our crucifixes hanging on long chains to remind us not to go down there so often and lets keep the picture of baby jesus as the background to our desktop to keep us from those porn sites, but the conclusion was doing it sometimes is just good all around, and i tell you what these people were strict, and often really really horrible to each other, but me being me, told everybody off one by one, and i pat myself on the back for being the only person to confront irrational extremists, gain support and bring mutual respect whilst reminding them that the point is to be good and nice and supportive and not careless, cruel or evil, stupid how it takes somebody who doesn't conform to remind so called spiritual people what it is all about, i think it is far too easy for religious people to get lost in text and end up completely missing the point of life and what it is to be good, but of course i am not saying many religious people are like that, just the extremists

yeah, so i didn't want to masturbate, and i thought, catholics don't masturbate, lets see how it is done, wrong, they do, they just feel really bad after doing it

ooh, i remember something being helpful though, somebody described it as being like an untrained dog, your sex drive, and you just have to tame it, and keep it on the leash (or something i can't remember) and then you will obtain a higher feeling of control and perhaps enlightenment, i don't know, he described it better than me, but it was pretty good.

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#232483 - 06/21/08 11:07 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: king tut]
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I love masturbation. I think its a great thing. I enjoy it alot, even when it is not at all spiritual, which is alot of the time.

Teaching people to be scared of or guilty about touching their own bodies is flat-out abusive.


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#232489 - 06/21/08 11:25 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: testingWaters]
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So what you are you guys telling easterneurope?

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#232492 - 06/21/08 11:31 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Barkabus]
testingWaters Offline
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My opinion. He is not talking about anyone teaching him not to masturbate. He is simply doing that for himself. Which is great - to thine own self be true, right?


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#232498 - 06/22/08 12:00 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Barkabus]
king tut Offline
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Originally Posted By: Barkabus
So what you are you guys telling easterneurope?


huh, what did he ask? i was just talking that's all, i think if you dont want to dont, if you want to go for it, if you do it too much, well, then we have a problem lol

nah i don't know, i respect people if they can find a place where they can be content and happy without harming anyone in the process

(i would read this thread but it is really long and understandably due to this sub-forum it has lots of bible references, and i only know the bible in the way i know the bible, in the way that you probably wont agree with, in the way that i dont have to open it and read it to know)



Edited by king tut (06/22/08 12:03 AM)
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#232502 - 06/22/08 12:27 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
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Charlie 2005,

I agree totally with your view on CHRIST sacifice on the cross and our struggles with our flesh. It's what HE did for me not what I do for him that's important. AS for m it's like breathing we all do it.

one day at a time
Mike

Go Tarheels.

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#232529 - 06/22/08 06:24 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Barkabus]
Sans Logos Offline
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bark, i guess my nod to ee's post is this: just because you are married [the two become one and all that sort of rot] does not preclude the possibility of private masturbatory practices being a healthy part of one's behavioral lexicon.

sexual pleasure is a very personal individual thing. i myself am not in a relationship at the time, but when i was, i practiced masturbation as well. i just get a sense that ee's determination not to masturbate is more more about the 'refreshing control' of his experience than anything else. what would precipitate someone's decision to deny a healthy sexual component of their being, just so they could stand outside of themselves and recognize their control as being 'good'. each person has their own value system that they serve. it seems that ee's 100 days abstinence is more a laurel than anything else, which is cool if that is helping him to experience a measure of freedom, which in turn will better able him to give unfettered service to those who share his world.

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#232539 - 06/22/08 10:02 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sans Logos
...the culture interprets>


Edited by Robbie Brown (06/22/08 10:07 AM)
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#232562 - 06/22/08 01:17 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
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robbie, i do appreciate your perspective, but i think you misinterpreted my statement as implying something that was not intended.

today's culture obviously interprets>
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#232840 - 06/23/08 08:33 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
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Wow! This subject has really attracted a lot of attention!

As a very small boy (4 years) I had begun masturbating after being abused. My mother threatened to cut off my pecker if I persisted. I took her seriously and stopped. Then for years I had a fear of it and didn't practice it. I think my hormone levels were low enough during those years that it was fairly easy to resist.

But then at age of 14, two friends were talking about a school classmate who had been fondled by his scout leader. It led to a desire to experiment. We all rode our bikes home separately and experimented in our separate bath tubs. This time it was successful. It led to a daily habit over the years. Because of my earlier experience I had a lot of guilt about it. I went to the library and checked out several books on sex. None of these said that a boy should feel guilty about masturbation.

Many guys are troubled about the following verses from the Bible:

8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also.
Genesis 38:8-10 (NIV)

But if you read this carefully it does not say he masturbated at all. What Onan did here was coitus interruptus. Onan was having sex with his dead brother's wife and withdrew before ejaculation. So this passage is not even talking about masturbation. That is what the passage clearly says.

Puffer


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#233185 - 06/24/08 06:25 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: pufferfish]
FormerTexan Offline
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Puffer,

I have heard so often how this verse is used to guilt-burden boys over this. That is nothing short of spiritual abuse. But it goes back to my original question. What if a man cannot marry, for whatever reason? Is he supposed to just "burn with passion," as Paul puts it? I personally do not believe so.

Andy

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#233272 - 06/24/08 09:20 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: FormerTexan]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Puffer,

What if a man cannot marry, for whatever reason? Is he supposed to just "burn with passion," as Paul puts it? I personally do not believe so.

Andy


Did I say this?

We probably agree. I know there are some in leadership positions who are able to "abstain" and they think that every guy should follow suit. I think that it is really what is in our thoughts when we do it that determines whether it is right or not.

I don't think the word "burn" in this verse is referring to an eternal state. It is talking about an intensity of feeling.

Puffer


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#233299 - 06/24/08 10:14 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: pufferfish]
FormerTexan Offline
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Puffer,

No you did not say this. I was simply rehashing my original question. The word "burn" in this verse does not refer to the eternal sense, which has to do with an eternal punishment. The word burn here, to me, represents a sexual drive. I would have to look up the greek to get exact meanings.

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#233326 - 06/24/08 11:06 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: FormerTexan]
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Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
I would have to look up the greek to get exact meanings.

The Greek is πυρόομαι, which in late ancient colloquial Greek, the language of the NT, means "to burn up". In the passage in Corinthians it's used figuratively, i.e. "to burn up with [some emotion]", such as anger, desire, curiosity, etc. Here the verb is present passive infinitive, so the meaning is "to be burned up with [some emotion]". In the context that emotion clearly must be sexual desire. Yay! Professor Keaney would be proud of me. \:D

Much love,
Larry

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#233350 - 06/25/08 12:10 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: roadrunner]
FormerTexan Offline
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Thank you Larry. \:\)

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#233379 - 06/25/08 01:20 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: FormerTexan]
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Andy,

The prefix of the Greek verb is pyro, which of course we still use to refer to burning: pyromaniac, pyrotechnics, etc. And in European languages the influence of the idiom still survives: "burning with curiosity", "that burns me up", etc.

Who woulda thunk it? Old-fashioned philology relevant on MaleSurvivor? What's next? \:D

Much joyous word-crunching,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#233669 - 06/26/08 05:53 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: roadrunner]
blueshift Offline
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I was spiritually abused to use formertexan's term which I think is a good one. I heard that my body was a temple of God and that to masturbate was to defile the temple of God.
At some point though I said "God, your temple has an erection and it isn't a steeple." lol

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#233702 - 06/26/08 08:04 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: blueshift]
Sans Logos Offline
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frikkin hilarious. i love this forum. it's probably the only place on the cyber planet where god is allowed to laugh out loud.

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#233737 - 06/26/08 10:09 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
FormerTexan Offline
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Ok, blueshift, that brought me a smile for the day. \:D

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


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#233741 - 06/26/08 10:18 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: blueshift]
roadrunner Offline
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Originally Posted By: blueshift
I heard that my body was a temple of God and that to masturbate was to defile the temple of God.
At some point though I said "God, your temple has an erection and it isn't a steeple." lol

How absolutely memorable! Well done!!!! \:D I'm sure God is chuckling over this one right now.

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#234703 - 06/30/08 04:38 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Still]
VLinvictus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sans Logos
...the culture interprets>
_________________________
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~ Oscar Wilde

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#234704 - 06/30/08 04:40 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: EGL]
VLinvictus Offline
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Originally Posted By: EGL
The argument I've always heard within the church against masturbation is taken from Genesis, regarding the story of Onan. His brother died, so according to the law of the time he was required to sleep with his brother's wife in order to impregnate her and continue his brother's family line. However, Onan didn't want to impregnate her so he "spilled his seed on the ground". God was angry about this and struck him down. That "spilled his seed on the ground" could be taken a couple of different ways -- one is that he "pulled out" before orgasm and spilled it that way. Another is that he simply masturbated instead of having sex with her. Either way, Onan was exhibiting rebellion against God by his actions, which is the point of the story.

My own belief is as Mark stated above -- it depends upon the heart and mind at the time of the act.


Onan's trangression was his neglect of the levirate law that required him to father a child to perpetuate his dead brother's name and lineage. "Wasting" or "destroying" his seed refers to <i>coitus interruptus</i>

_________________________
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#234706 - 06/30/08 04:45 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
VLinvictus Offline
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[quote=dgoods]not currently Christian, but not ignorant either
I agree, it would not be easy to live literally by Leviticus.</quote>

No one ever lived "literally" by Leviticus. The laws in Leviticus and the rest of the Torah were constitutional principles upon which the structure of Jewish life was constructed. It cannot be understood or implemented outside of the living traditional framework of a transgenerational community that studies and lives the laws. The laws in the "Old Testament" were given that people might live by them and we are told that that these laws are within our grasp and we can choose to live by them (Deuteronomy 30:11-20).

<quote>It is widely understood that the prohibitions against pork and shellfish within the OT reflect an ignorance as to the cause or prevention of trichinosis or salmonella. With no microscopes or antibiotics, how would you keep your people safe from these threats in a way that would survive generations? Easy- make it a sin against God.</quote>

That may be the way the laws of kashrut are widely understood, but that is not the reason they exist. Otherwise, chickens would be prohibited along with pigs due to the risk of salmonella. No, the dietary laws existed to make their adherents distinct from other peoples and to elevate the act of eating to a sacred, religious experience.


_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#234707 - 06/30/08 04:54 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: VLinvictus]
VLinvictus Offline
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Oops. I didn't realize how old some of those posts are.

I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions that I see bandied about so often.

My opinion is that masturbation is basically good, like the rest of the sexual faculty. The question is why is one doing it? If you're using masturbation to escape from feelings that you would rather not face, as a way to distract or numb yourself, then it's no different from alcohol, drugs, shopping, gambling -- anything that creates a happy feeling in the brain. In situations like that, it's not a healthy choice.

If, on the other hand, you want to give yourself pleasure as an act of self-love or simply because you're horny and want to let off steam, as it were, it's perfectly fine and good.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#235471 - 07/03/08 12:10 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: VLinvictus]
Sans Logos Offline
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lv,


re:
Quote:
Not quite.


since i was quoted as being misinformed, i feel it necessary to defend my position and clarify that my comment was merely an allegory to the subject at hand, not an attempt to educate the masses on levitical law.

i can truly appreciate that you are coming from a place where you felt it necessary to comment as you did, and i have no issue with that. i have my own side of the street to take care of, because the buck stops here, and if i don't noone else will. does that amount to making a mountain out of a mole hill? i don't think so; my healing process calls me to be a person whose recovery means not only standing in my truth, but also bearing witness to it. even if it seems being contrary.

i am not disputing in general what you say nor your right to say it. what i do respect very deeply is that we can disagree without being disagreeable, and i think that is the best honesty i can to both myself and the community.


thanks for hearing me, and i wish you all the best,
ron

_________________________
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#236555 - 07/07/08 03:50 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
hogan_dawg Offline
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My reasoning is that a divine God would try to understand the masturbation. And, once done, if I'm remorseful for those times that were 'wrong', as felt in my soul, would probably forgive. For those occasions I felt masturbating was not sinful or 'wrong', in that context, I'd want that understanding God to trust my decision.

If the true God isn't as understanding as I am suggesting, then I'll take responsibility afterwards I guess.

Of course, all this is purely hypothetical, :).




Edited by hogan_dawg (07/07/08 03:52 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#236559 - 07/07/08 04:03 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
pufferfish Offline
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Someone has suggested that if God didn't want us to do it, He would have given us shorter arms.

But really, I think God is not unreasonable. He wants the best for you and for me.

Puffer


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#236564 - 07/07/08 04:22 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: pufferfish]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
hi, I am not sure I am allowed to post in this area, but the title caught my eye and I thought some of you would get a kick out of this.

I have 3 sons. Two of them are teenagers.After having a heated discussion with each other, my younger son comes out into the kitchen to inform me that his older brother is gay. Gay you say, why is this? He proceeded to explain to me that my older boy admitted to masturbating while talking to his friend on line. Embarrassed, but still puzzled, I asked how does this make him gay? "Well Mom, isn't it true that only gay guys do that?" WHAT?

I then had to explain to him that it is for everyone. Of course it had to be a night my H was at work, so I was on my own. My face was beat red. Hopefully he got the point that everyone is welcome to help themselves to themselves, but only in their own space, and in private, but you are free to enjoy it, and never be ashamed for doing it.( just you don't need to let your mom know, LOL)
I asked him where he got that idea about it being for gay people, and his response was," I don't know I thought I read it or something."

NYDAISY........again sorry if I can't post here,as my kids say,MY BAD.



Edited by NY Daisy (07/07/08 04:23 PM)

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#236878 - 07/08/08 10:50 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear all, It has been pointed out to me that it sounds like my son was masturbating "while" he was on line. Now that I have reread my post I can absolutely see where it could have been misconstrued.
I am so sorry for this. My son was not masturbating. What I meant was he and his friend were talking about how they do participate in that.ALONE.
I only thought it was amusing because as much as you think you are teaching your kids about life and sex, we try to be open about it, they still get wacky ideas in their heads, and I was amused that for whatever reason my younger boy thought you had to be gay to do that, and we all know, or at least the one I worship,God would never exclude anyone from that. So I am sorry, NYDAISY

GOD would never exclude anyone from that.(I thought I'd add that since it is the area)


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#236903 - 07/09/08 12:16 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Hmmm not meaning to shock you but was he talking to a guy online? That might explain the 'gay' thing. Like, cyber sex between guys. If so, the kid might be right, it's kinda gay.

Reminds me of that video where the guy sings "My parents think I'm gay just because I like 'guys'" or words to that effect.

Sure you can post here. \:\)





Edited by hogan_dawg (07/09/08 12:20 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237154 - 07/09/08 10:55 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
yes, he was talking to a guy, and the gay thing, time will tell. My kids know that's fine with me.I just want grandkids, I don't care how they give them to me. A family, is a family.
NYDAISY


P.S. could this be why the younger one told the older one," good news you can get married in California now?" hmmmm....


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#237194 - 07/10/08 05:51 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Posts: 492
lol

I like that. Yeah family is family. As long as there is lots of love to go around.

Best, Dawg

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237220 - 07/10/08 10:41 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
VLinvictus Offline
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Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Sans Logos

since i was quoted as being misinformed, i feel it necessary to defend my position and clarify that my comment was merely an allegory to the subject at hand, not an attempt to educate the masses on levitical law.

i can truly appreciate that you are coming from a place where you felt it necessary to comment as you did, and i have no issue with that.


I'm sorry. I didn't realize this was such a big deal to you. The only "place" that I'm "coming from" is a desire not to see the tenets of my religion misrepresented. It is all too often that the laws of the "Old Testament" are presented as an overly harsh and burdensome code of rules that exist only to complicate life and condemn sinful humanity, when from the Jewish perspective they it is a tree of life whose ways are pleasant and all whose paths are peace.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237229 - 07/10/08 12:42 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: VLinvictus]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
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oy vey, reinterpreting my meaning to bash me over the head with, IS a big deal for me. if you are going to continue to use my words to impose your interpretation of my words at least out of respect, use them all and not merely select those that will ultimately be used to create a case to debunk said imagined 'misrepresentation'. to use snippets of my commentary to back-up your attempt to rescue the judaic law from misinterpretation, is ultimately turning ploughshares into swords! i mean what is all your nit-picking going to achieve? a little pat on the head from above?

if you wish to remove the speck from my eye, please do not quote me out of context; my exact words were thus:

Quote:
lv,


re: Quote:
Not quite.

since i was quoted as being misinformed, i feel it necessary to defend my position and clarify that my comment was merely an allegory to the subject at hand, not an attempt to educate the masses on levitical law.

i can truly appreciate that you are coming from a place where you felt it necessary to comment as you did, and i have no issue with that. i have my own side of the street to take care of, because the buck stops here, and if i don't noone else will. does that amount to making a mountain out of a mole hill? i don't think so; my healing process calls me to be a person whose recovery means not only standing in my truth, but also bearing witness to it. even if it seems being contrary.

i am not disputing in general what you say nor your right to say it. what i do respect very deeply is that we can disagree without being disagreeable, and i think that is the best honesty i can to both myself and the community.


thanks for hearing me, and i wish you all the best,
ron


as far as 'the tenets' of your religion go, it would be helpful to include which sect of judaism you are affiliating with because i am certain when you say
Quote:
it is a tree of life whose ways are pleasant and all whose paths are peace
that some of the female jewish women friends with whom i am and have made acquaintance with along the way, who, parenthetically, have been made second class citizens would find this statement quite contestable and/or laughable. and, just so you don't think i am picking on jewish orthodoxy, the same holds true for folks of other denominations who feel disenfranchised from their spiritual communities based on patriarchal ruling systems.

ok, enough of this masturbation. blah blah blah

you are most welcome to have the last word; it's all yours. have at it,

peace out,

ron \:D

_________________________
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#237277 - 07/10/08 03:37 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Sans Logos]
VLinvictus Offline
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
????

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#239990 - 07/24/08 02:16 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: VLinvictus]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
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(Content removed for being sexually suggestive.)



Edited by ModTeam (07/24/08 07:36 PM)
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#239998 - 07/24/08 03:25 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: blueshift]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
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Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
L
O

frikin

L

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#240001 - 07/24/08 03:41 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: NY Daisy
"Well Mom, isn't it true that only gay guys do that?" WHAT?


So it was not just my warped little town. That was the public word on MB when I grew up. "Only gay guys do that."

I remember thinking "THAT'S what indicates yer gay? Holy crud! What does that stuff I do with those guys make ME?"

Then I heard Woody Allan say "its having sex with someone I love." Went about my business fully confused.

Glad you are not letting your boys be confused Daisy.

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#240688 - 07/28/08 10:48 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Still]
petercorbett Offline
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Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2433
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Hi, I'm new to this male survivor site and trying to come to terms with myself after 69 years on this earth, I was sexually abused 60 years ago and until now have never sought help, now on this subject masturbation I am an expert, I still am a compulsuve masterbater, I (think) that I may have been introduced to it by my abuser. But for sure I was doing it at 10 yrs old, as a Catholic if I should die before going to confession I was going straight to hell. Well I was sent to a Catholic orphanage/home where i resided for (almost) four years, we were there with the exception for the summer months continually. Well I remember being very heavilly into it, every day, and we had to go to Mass every day and twice on Sundays, plus confession on Saturdays, Now being we (70) boys were living in the home we were supposed to receive communion every morning, now that would be very embarrasing to miss as why would a boy not be in the state of grace? Well I figured that if (just if) I should die before going to confession, what the heck I just might as well participate in the communion. No worring what those Brothers would think that I might have done. Plus I was doing it in (as they said) in Gods house. I am married have a son plus two grandsons and I still masturbate till this day, maybe when I start my recovery process it may help to stop.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
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May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
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#240742 - 07/28/08 05:10 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Still]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Robbie Brown, THE WHOLE TOWN THOUGHT THAT!!! I HOPE YOU NO LONGER LIVE THERE. I BET NO ONE EVER SMILES IN THAT TOWN. LOL Self love is the best love, any way you look at it, you should always love yourself. Warmly, NYDAISY


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#240745 - 07/28/08 05:18 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
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petercorbett, I am also catholic. One thing I always remember is that God is all forgiving. Just say the word and you shall be healed. So if it was a sin(which it is not) all you would need to do is say you were sorry, my kids have been taught that you don't even have to wait for confession. You just have to ask for forgiveness and God will give it. Now you must forgive yourself, it sounds like you carry around alot of guilt around because of it. Ask yourself this, ARE YOU HURTING ANYONE BY DOING THAT? If it's not hurting anyone, then what you do is your business, and God does love you. Warmly, NYDAISY


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#240850 - 07/28/08 09:43 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
hogan_dawg Offline
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How bad could the punishment be anyway?

Ok let's suppose masturbating results in say 1000 years in purgatory, or some other such timeline. What would you think is an appropriate or humourous punishment for God to hand out?

A. 1000 years of weaving Kleenix and cleaning computer keypads
B. 1000 years of arm spasm where your arm looks like it's shaking a pop can whenever you introduce yourself.
C. 1000 years of Dick Cheney
4. 1000 years of fire. Hmmm...kinda worth the risk if you ask me!

Add your own punishment - win fabulous prizes! \:D

I shouldn't be irreverent without attempting to cope with Andy's question. I think Paul wasn't making a commandment, but just pointing out that if we permit something, anything, masturbation included, to get in the way of our relationship with God, it's to be avoided and that's why he's calling it 'burning passion' - just to let us know that it can become a 'never quenchable' thing.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/28/08 10:30 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#240867 - 07/28/08 10:09 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Peter,

What I tell the teens who ask about this is that almost every teen masturbates and many guys continue to do so into adulthood. It doesn't harm you in any way. But if a guy feels guilty about it and wants to stop, that's okay too. It's his choice. Sexual urges are natural and healthy, and for young guys who are not yet sexually active with others masturbation is a pleasant and healthy solution.

Compulsive masturbation is something else, of course. But that isn't caused by masturbation as such, but by other issues for which masturbation seems to offer a sense of release or control. But even then a guy need not feel guilty about it. The thing to do is seek professional help. A therapist won't blame the guy; he/she's seen it all, after all. The aim with be solely to help the survivor with his problem.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#240881 - 07/28/08 10:50 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
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Hogan Dawg,

You are a very funny Dawg! LOL. What do you think the punishment will be for women, when God finds out that we do it too? LOL

Should I be scared? NYDAISY


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#241136 - 07/29/08 08:20 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
Stretch73 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Is masturbating at least a dozen times a day considered "compulsive?"

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#241162 - 07/29/08 09:17 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Stretch73]
pufferfish Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stretch73
Is masturbating at least a dozen times a day considered "compulsive?"



That's considered Olympian!

Puffer





Edited by pufferfish (07/30/08 12:06 PM)

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#241163 - 07/29/08 09:19 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NY Daisy
You are a very funny Dawg! LOL. What do you think the punishment will be for women, when God finds out that we do it too? LOL NYDAISY


It will be the reciprocal of whatever the men get.

Puffer


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#241171 - 07/29/08 09:29 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: pufferfish]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
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Thanks Puffer, I thought maybe he'd go easy on us. LoL

I guess I should ask for forgiveness now. LOL NYDAISY


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#241175 - 07/29/08 09:32 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Stretch73,

How do you have time for anything else? LOL


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#241301 - 07/30/08 07:41 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Stretch73]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: Stretch73
Is masturbating at least a dozen times a day considered "compulsive?"

Yes, I'm pretty sure that would be considered compulsive, though I think my term for it would be "exhausting"!

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#241307 - 07/30/08 08:14 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: Stretch73]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i wonder what stretch is doing right at this moment?????? brushing his teeth, having breakfast, talking on the phone? hmmmmm, i just wonder.....

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  3. advocacy


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#241318 - 07/30/08 09:22 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: NY Daisy]
VLinvictus Offline
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
There is no number that separates compulsive from non-compulsive. What makes something compulsive is why you do it.

If you masturbate because you feel like you HAVE to, because it gives you a drug-like rush that helps you escape from whatever it is that you don't want to feel or think about, if it something that you use to avoid having to be present in the real world, then yes, it's compulsive.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#241469 - 07/30/08 11:45 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: VLinvictus]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
What I really wonder about:

Does anybody fantasize about their abuse while they do it?

Maybe it is common. Maybe too shame provoking to acknowledge.

Puffer


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#241470 - 07/30/08 11:48 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
.



Edited by pufferfish (07/31/08 10:33 AM)

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#241500 - 07/31/08 07:46 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: pufferfish]
Sans Logos Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
ew, yuk!

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#241518 - 07/31/08 10:28 AM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: hogan_dawg]
petercorbett Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2433
Loc: TEXAS
Hi hogan_dawg.
I got a good chuckle out of your punishment be about masturbation, When I did go to Catholic confession, it was usualy a whole passle of Our Fathers and Hail Mary's, not to mention NOT TO DO IT AGAIN. HELL'S just waiting for me.
Hope that you are doing well in your recovery, and we all get the peace that we deserve.
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#241601 - 07/31/08 09:05 PM Re: Masturbation and [the bible, ie, religion] [Re: petercorbett]
1islandboy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 856
Loc: washington
Puffer,

Does anyone fantasize while they do it.

All the time. It was like my go to jerk. I mean I was married to a...and former lovers were just to far back in the mainframe.

Yeah, I know it's a control thing. T said bad idea, need new fantasy.

found new hyper sex kinky type girlfriend.

LIVE IN THE SOLUTION...!!!

island

_________________________
Rise above the storm and you will find the sunshine ~ M.F. Fernandez

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#241602 - 07/31/08 09:12 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
1islandboy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 856
Loc: washington
well it's a good thing for me this post deals with spirituality and not religion.

Everybody.. have you heard, if your in the game, then the strokes the word.

island

_________________________
Rise above the storm and you will find the sunshine ~ M.F. Fernandez

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#241738 - 08/01/08 12:44 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: 1islandboy]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2433
Loc: TEXAS
Hi,
I sure do fantasize about it when I do it. Mostly did and still do at times. If its a control thing, well then I've been in control for about 60 yrs. Wish you all well in your recovery.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#269490 - 12/31/08 03:35 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
TElyDDMinistries Offline


Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 2
Edited



Edited by ModTeam (12/31/08 10:11 PM)

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#269491 - 12/31/08 03:37 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: WalkingSouth]
TElyDDMinistries Offline


Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 2
Edited



Edited by ModTeam (12/31/08 10:11 PM)

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#269493 - 12/31/08 03:52 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: TElyDDMinistries]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
It was most gracious of you preacher to show the respect here that we all do, and to introduce yourself to the membership. I have searched for your post about your personal story of sexual abuse but can't seem to find it - could you direct me please to the Forum that you posted in. Thanks.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#269494 - 12/31/08 04:03 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: TElyDDMinistries]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
The reason Onan's "spilling of his seed" was wrong (in my opinion - though I know others have stated the same type thing earlier in this thread...) - in that time period - to grow the nation of Israel - a man took care of his brother's wife so his brother's family could continue. But it was the "law of the land" and "the time that it was in" made Onan's actions directly defiant to Jehovah's words. So Jehovah killed Onan. For "spilling his seed"? No. For disobeying that which he had been instructed to do - that which he knew was the wish of Jehovah "in that time period".

I cannot see how anyone could read that entire story and say that masturbation is sin.


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#269514 - 12/31/08 07:28 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: MarkK]
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
The abuse we all suffered was SIN and there will be pay back at some point.

Masterbation is not a sin, in Jim's book, it is a healthy release that doesn't hurt anybody.

I would rather slap the salami by myself then be in a unhealthy relationship (married according to the bible) where it is done for me, with no love.

Slap happy Jim





_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#269662 - 01/01/09 11:30 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: healing_inside]
wes-b Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 438
Loc: Western, Canada

Hey brothers, happy new year :-)

I must read this in it's entirety... I'll just blindly fall in where it sits on this page :-)

I keep seeing this darned "Sin" word... such a nice media sound-byte term... lets use transgression or trespasses, these feel more personal to me and when the terms are personal they are real, and in the here and now... Heck I can distance myself from sin far easier than I can from transgression and trespassing.

That said... for me masturbation is fought with danger and is a real threat for damaging my spirit/soul. The post renaissance 'cut and dried' good/bad delineation of acts as black/white, good/bad does not mesh with my understanding of God and Spirit. As I continue experience my spiritual self I am finding that there is not a cut and dried good or bad in general life events. My acting out with food/work/sex have all been aberrant behaviours which damaged my mind, body and spirit. Just like the aberrant behaviour that was meted out on me by my abusers. The spirit of any act is what I see as the arbiter of it's nature. Masturbation can be nurturing and it can be damaging. For me masturbation has never been about nurture it has been about disconnecting and hiding it has burned at my soul due to the spirit behind it; rooted in my abuse experiences. My other addictions work, food and cigarettes were escapes and when I get honest they were slow release suicide attempts.

Your Brother, Wes

Maybe this ought to be it's own thread :-\

_________________________
Happy to be a recovering survivor. :-)

Continuing to meet more of my fellows as I "Trudge the Road of Happy Destiny".

My Story, 1st pass

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#270196 - 01/07/09 03:16 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
expom Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 123
Loc: Australia
Hi Andy.
For many years Satan - the accuser of the Brethren - managed to keep me guilt ridden and ineffective by quoting>
_________________________
I endured all my yesterdays. I prevail in all of my todays. I exercise my right to be able to enjoy my tomorrows. I choose not to do it alone.

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#270585 - 01/09/09 08:44 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: MarkK]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
you are correct Onan was not masturbating but I think he was withdrawing not to conceive.
So many of us who are Christians feel guilty about masturbation but NO ONE can find any>
_________________________
5 depending on God's grace gives hope
6 my dark side , my hurt inner being my struggle
8 looking to the day of overcomming

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#270776 - 01/11/09 09:11 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
I think masturbation is better than burning with pashion
but because of unresolved abuses issues, fantacising,
and my messed up sexuality
it messes ME up
but that doesn't make it wrong

I agree with other replies I have received that using masturbation or smoking to deaden the pain is unhelpful

but as a release I think its normal

_________________________
5 depending on God's grace gives hope
6 my dark side , my hurt inner being my struggle
8 looking to the day of overcomming

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#271027 - 01/12/09 09:33 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dgoods]
j.thebeau Offline


Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 1
I think God asks certain things of us, and they all fall under exactly that, Obedience. Sometimes its not easy, but masturbation effects your mind, it is often done while viewing pornography (which is extremely demeaning of God's children, as well as adictive) and it effects the way people interact and the way you view people. I'm 17 and if anyone has "burning passion, it's a 17 year old, and I try to refrain from this activity.


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#271029 - 01/12/09 09:40 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: j.thebeau]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
j.thebeau:

The Spirituality forum is not one of my regular haunts, but I noticed that you were new to our support site and I just wanted to welcome you. I think that you will find us to be a caring and supportive bunch of guys. We are all here together trying to find our freedom from what was done to us as kids. We also have a teen support forum that you will need to ask one of our site moderators to access.

Again, glad that you found us. We are just here to try to help.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#271067 - 01/13/09 08:19 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Trucker51]
joelRT Offline
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MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
j.thebeau,

Welcome my young friend. It's good to have you with us. I hope that, you too, will find the clarity and some of the answers you're looking for through the posts here at MS.

Feel free to speak up and ask anything that you need to. We'll all do our best..........

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#271974 - 01/19/09 05:57 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: joelRT]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
I don't know if anyone is still reading/ accessing this thread or not, but it is an important thing for me right now. I too have compulsively masturbated, a lot. But I do feel that God, while having given us this method to perhaps reduce our sin by not involving others. Still sees M as a sin. As mentioned often by others God is forgiving and will forgive us all. But I wonder how someone would rationalize Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians about not using your body for immoral purposes because your body is not your own it has been purchased at a price. ( just off of the top of my head sorry I didn't look it up). And yes I am Catholic. The other thing people are forgetting is God gives grace to follow his ways, but not unless you ask for it. I have read this entire thread because I had a very interesting breakthrough last Fri in therapy. I suddenly realized that pretty much all of my sexual relationships, including the one with myself have been heavily influenced by one of my two molesters ( one each a woman/ Aunt and a guy in the army, one when I was seven and one when I was nineteen). I have masturbated a lot as I said and the most intense is always relating a fantasy to the abuse. I came away from that t session feeling something I hadn't felt in a long time... hope. I had given up on ever finding someone to love. Because I had decided that everyone, absolutely everyone is a scoundrel. But now I realize that it isn't that everyone is a scoundrel. Its just that I have been looking for scoundrels to try to fix something that happened in the past. Something that can never be fixed. But maybe now I can quit trying to fix it and try to find someone who isn't a scoundrel to try to build something meaningful with. Sorry this is so long and maybe no one will ever read it. Maybe I'm even writing it for myself to help me clear my head? I suppose I should have just used my journal. But its really nice to have a place like this with people who, unfortunately, have had the same type of things happen to them. I am beginning to feel like this is one place where I can really be me ( if I can figure out who that is). Thanks .


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#271978 - 01/19/09 06:23 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dogman]
wes-b Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 438
Loc: Western, Canada

Brother Dogman;

you put it in view posting to it ;-) I like the post and I can surely relate to reenacting my abuse, unconsciously, to come to an understanding of it. I have connected with my abusive fantasies as well as the pornographic stories I used to be drawn to as being reenactments... heck even my relations with my wife were sullied by my abuse history. It was truly liberating when I realized the connection, then I could process it and resolve the feelings.

As for Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, I have little recollection of it and will take your memory as being close enough. My God gave me the greatest gift there is, that being free will, and along with that her love for me is unlimited and unconditional... she loves me at all times even when I was acting out in my basest ways. She rejoices with each step of healing and recovery I make.

Love, Wes

_________________________
Happy to be a recovering survivor. :-)

Continuing to meet more of my fellows as I "Trudge the Road of Happy Destiny".

My Story, 1st pass

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#271979 - 01/19/09 07:22 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: wes-b]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
wes
I have reeinacted abuse whilst masterbating
my T questions the accuracy of it
but it has sorted out my head
I feel I now know what happened when I was abused at the age of 2
some say we do remember everything
its just recalling it

I don't recomend it as I have other issues
and it can leave me with a messed up head for days
Nathan 5

_________________________
5 depending on God's grace gives hope
6 my dark side , my hurt inner being my struggle
8 looking to the day of overcomming

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#271987 - 01/19/09 08:00 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dogman]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
dogman,

Great breakthrough - congrats! Now get out there and meet yourself that right person!!!

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#272047 - 01/20/09 09:46 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: joelRT]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
Thanks guys I'm starting to work on it. I really can't take another bad one. But my relationship with the Lord is what is making the real difference now I think.


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#308269 - 10/27/09 01:42 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: dogman]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
Did we ever resolve this question?

What do we do about guilt feelings we have because we masturbate thinking of our abuse?

Didn't Jesus talk about (this is my paraphrase) if you look after a woman (or can we say man) with lust in your heart you have already done it.

So is that what happens in masturbation?

Allen

pufferfish whistle





Edited by pufferfish (10/27/09 12:24 PM)
Edit Reason: yeah man!

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#308314 - 10/27/09 12:21 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: pufferfish]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
I've heard masturbastion likened to an act of sin against
1. The temple of the Holy Spirit
2. The "Image of God"

For me and I think many others it's foundation is definitely in a sinful act. Trying to take care of what ever it is going on inside us, on our own, with no reliance on God to do so. Be it an attempt to get rid of anxiety, or stress, or fulfill some missing need or deep longing in our heart that we don't know what to do with.

So I think the ultimate question is... how do we not do that? I mean take care of our needs ourselves? For me this is especially hard, as growing up, especially with my emotional needs, I had to take care of it all because my parents were completely emotional bankrupt. So how can I let go and trust that those needs will be met and not continually fall back into the same sin?

You're on the button with your paraphrase Allen. If you look at the statement that Christ made, it wasn't the look that was responsible for the sin, but the condition of the heart of the person doing the looking. I've heard many guys over the years say that "there's nothing wrong with looking..." but that's definitely not true for all people.... the real question is, why are you looking, and.... that goes straight back to a heart conidition issue.


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#308383 - 10/27/09 11:53 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: EGL]
Mike1968 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/14/09
Posts: 117
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: EGL
The argument I've always heard within the church against masturbation is taken from Genesis, regarding the story of Onan. His brother died, so according to the law of the time he was required to sleep with his brother's wife in order to impregnate her and continue his brother's family line. However, Onan didn't want to impregnate her so he "spilled his seed on the ground". God was angry about this and struck him down. That "spilled his seed on the ground" could be taken a couple of different ways -- one is that he "pulled out" before orgasm and spilled it that way. Another is that he simply masturbated instead of having sex with her. Either way, Onan was exhibiting rebellion against God by his actions, which is the point of the story.

My own belief is as Mark stated above -- it depends upon the heart and mind at the time of the act.

After deep study, I came to the same conclusion. It is natural to masturbate imho. Yet only if our sexual fantasies are directed at someone other than our spouses does it become sin. Yet for many, there are no sexual fantasies present at all thus no sin.


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#308384 - 10/27/09 11:55 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Mike1968]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I think there is a place in Leviticus about if a man has an emission and there is no woman present he is simply to leave the camp temporaily and wash. That seems like MB to me.

R


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#308385 - 10/28/09 12:00 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Freedom49]
Mike1968 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/14/09
Posts: 117
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Freedom49
I think there is a place in Leviticus about if a man has an emission and there is no woman present he is simply to leave the camp temporaily and wash. That seems like MB to me.

R


Yes Freedom, thank God those Old Testament Laws were done away with.


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#308398 - 10/28/09 01:32 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Freedom49]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6811
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Freedom49
I think there is a place in Leviticus about if a man has an emission and there is no woman present he is simply to leave the camp temporaily and wash. That seems like MB to me.


It would also include "wet dreams" (a dream where there is a seminal emission).

What might be bothersome: If a guy does MB or wet dream daily then he would leave the camp for a day. If he did it every day, then he couldn't return to camp (until he broke the habit). So would this make him an outcast? He would be perpetually out of the camp. Is this how you would take it? This could be a problem!!! frown

Allen

pufferfish whistle




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#308406 - 10/28/09 02:54 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: pufferfish]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
Hi guys,

I think Leviticus also tells you to stone your neighbor for shaving...

I'd think twice before following that one.

Ease up on yourselves guys!!!!!

sono



Edited by sono (10/28/09 02:54 AM)
_________________________
the family
the perp

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#308412 - 10/28/09 07:13 AM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: pufferfish]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Quote:
Did we ever resolve this question?


i just wanted to say that imho this thread on masturbation IS masturbation. a perfect example indeed. whistle

all the best,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#308477 - 10/28/09 10:24 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: Sans Logos]
mrd Offline


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 28
My brothers,

In response to Andy's original question burn w/ passion. 1st Thess 4:3-5 states that "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel (body) in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who don't know God; (NASB) To me this makes M a sin because for me it's a lustful passion. There are some who say that they can M w/out lustful passion and for them to me its not sin. I can't do that yet. Sex was formed for us to reproduce, not pleasure in, it is pleasurable too. We are to delight in the Lord not sex. We are in a fallen world were there is not one who is righteous. I had my sexuality/ mind crossed wired at a very young age which through me out wack more than I should have been. By God's grace I'm fighting back (rewiring). There are many more battles to fight and M is one of them. God has delivered me from more than I can mention ie. drugs, alcoholism,and denial that's just tips the iceberg. When I look deeply into my M I learn some lessons about my relationship w/ God that I need to improve on and he is improving me cause I'm trying. I Love God for what he does with us, if we close our minds he lets it close, but if we open them' infinity. He doesn't want any of us to parish, struggles like M are to bring us closer to Him. Family open your minds wider so to learn the painful lessons that produce a joyful life, its a lot BIGGER than we can see.

love u guys much
mrd
p.s. in the end God will judge my heart not any man, I'm so grateful He is given me a heart like His.



Edited by mrd (10/28/09 10:29 PM)
_________________________
Ignorance is the most dangerous element in human society.

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#308504 - 10/29/09 07:57 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I think the position religion takes on masturbation or sex in general depends on the faith you belong to. Catholics, for example, are taught that sex is strictly for pro-creation while many evangelical Christians believe that sex is a gift from God that is meant to be enjoyed for its own sake within marriage. Not sure what stance Jews and Muslims take on the subject but I'd be interested to learn if anyone can enlighten me.

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#308514 - 10/29/09 10:40 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: jls]
Mike1968 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/14/09
Posts: 117
Loc: California
Song of Solomon certainly shows intimate affection, to be enjoyed without the procreation being the intent. Also someone posted that verse that says it is better to marry than to burn with lust so it serves a need outside of procreation. Some women are barren yet sexual relations is to be an expected part of marriage.


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#308515 - 10/29/09 10:43 AM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: Sans Logos]
Mike1968 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/14/09
Posts: 117
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Sans Logos
Quote:
Did we ever resolve this question?


i just wanted to say that imho this thread on masturbation IS masturbation. a perfect example indeed. whistle

all the best,

ron

lighty! grin


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#309574 - 11/06/09 11:23 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: Mike1968]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Ohio
When I was first saved, I gave up drinking, drugs and smoking cold turkey. I could not consistently shed my compulsive M problem. This concerned me greatly and at a HS youth group, I cried out in my heart to God over this while we were praying in a circle holding hands. I received a vision of the color white. Sounds dumb but you have never seen the true color white and I have not since. It was stunning and would shine in the absence of light. I had an apparent reaction where the leader asked me what I had seen. I told him the color white and I didn't understand why. He asked what was on my heart when I prayed and I told him I couldn't get rid of all sin. The leader then explained to me what God was showing me: His True Holiness. He said that nobody could ever achieve His Standard, therefore Jesus was sacrificed for our imperfection.

Masturbation is truly never directly addressed in the Bible. I think that is because it is truly not an issue unless it drags you into sin.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#310728 - 11/17/09 01:49 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: catfish86]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
For me, M is a private intimate expression. It is like eating as a it has a physical aspect and mental benefit.

When combined with spirituality AND religion (man's definition of the Bible) - M becomes a shameful expression.

I feel at one with myself (my spirituality) when I am with my body.

This issue (M) is a lot more simple and liveable with ease when I don't put sin with it. In my opinion M is intimate and is life giving to the person. Alot of messages are learned about M and are shameful messages.

DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#310759 - 11/17/09 08:51 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: DJsport]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 820
Loc: Ohio
I think M is like alcohol...having a beer or a glass of wine is not a sin. Getting drunk and banging your neighbor's wife...By the same token, if M leads you into deviant behavior it is a problem. My teacher noticed that my daughter, too young to know what she was doing, would touch herself in class. The teacher redirected her without calling attention to her. We discussed with our daughter that is was OK, it was her body, but that is something she should do in private. I really don't see anyone going to hell over this.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#310761 - 11/17/09 09:12 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: catfish86]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Quote:
don't see anyone going to hell over this


hell? i've been there ...... and back. the big god meanie is the least of my worries. it's the whacky humans who don his mask that cause me the most fright.

:shudder:

_________________________
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  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#312826 - 12/03/09 03:54 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Paul1959]
Enrigue Offline
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Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 9
I threw my bible in the trash years ago along with a bunch of other works of fiction. These so-called gods in that piece of baloney never helped me one bit to get out of my dungeon from the rape, and I tried for decades to appeal and pray to something made up by disturbed people who wanted to and continue to impose their demented phobias on everybody else. It wasn't until I found this wonderful therapist and MS that I finally feel I am on the road to recovery. My advice is to get away from any literature that has incest, child sacrifices, murder, and rape, such as the bible. How many of us were raped by bible thumping, churchgoing, god fearing hypocrites?


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#313046 - 12/05/09 11:18 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Enrigue]
ModTeam Offline
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While it is true that many survivors have been abused by clergy, and hurt in situations involving people who simply wore the name of spiritualtity, it's good to ask that we keep this thread on the topic of "Masturbation and Spirituality." Both subjects are important, let's not intermix them in this thread.

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#315307 - 12/20/09 02:07 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: ModTeam]
Charlie24 Offline


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 562
I want to add my two cents to this topic.

I believe masturbation can be a healthy way to explore one's sexuality.

It may be a sin, I really don't know or care.

I guess I would rather sin than get an STD.

With the rampant increases in STDs in all age groups I don't wanna become another statistic.

Masturbation allows for me to safely explore my sexuality and try things for me.

It's a private activity I believe is healthy and good.

I agree with others, like anything it can get out of control.

I remember feeling so much shame and guilt when kids high school used to say that I masturbated and I just would turn beet red.

Part of my getting over shit was realizing I was fantasizing about my abuse and my abuser, this need to please my abuser, to please people to get them to like to me, to feel like I had to prove myself to them.

Well now I can say I do what I want and I choose to masturbate.

I realize this in a way is a safety net for myself.

I don't feel either mature or ready for an intimate relationship with another consenting adult.

Great topic and dicussion, thanks for letting me share.


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#315434 - 12/20/09 07:50 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Charlie24]
Dude Offline
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 116
Loc: Fort Smith, AR
I agree with most. I don't believe M is a sin, but it can lead to sinful activities. I am married with kids and still practice M and for me it's helped a lot. I do have to say if it wasn't for God in my life, I'd probally be dead. Messed with both sides and I God one. I have blamed God, yelled at him and told him what he could do with my CSA; however, now I understand why things happen. -Donnie

Added: If anyone want's to PM me with any wuestions, feel free. Thank's, -Donnie



Edited by Dude (12/20/09 08:24 PM)

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#316851 - 12/29/09 08:49 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Dude]
h.beat,h.break Offline


Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 124
Loc: New York
LOL. Oh boy... it won't matter what anyone says about masturbation being a sin. I just think it's funny when ppl argue w/ one another about here the way we argue about abortions, giving condoms to teenagers or gay marriage.

But, for those of you who fully practice the "God fearing faith" (prayer, meeting of the body, midweek services, retreats, sharing the gospel w/ ppl and everything else Jesus taught his disciples) and are having trouble w/ M, there are numerous SA (Sexaholics Anon.) Groups that can be found via the internet.

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Hey, if "black sheep" means you're the only non-douche of the family, take that with some pride.

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#316857 - 12/29/09 09:01 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: h.beat,h.break]
nevragan Offline
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Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
This is interesting this topic came up. A coworker was talkin about this the other day. He meantioned that the Bible doesn't say MBing is a sin. I would have to agree that it is form of free speach for one's self. Done in moderation by yourself shouldn't really be a sin. Atleast I don't view it that way. Just my two cents. Andy.


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#316944 - 12/30/09 10:23 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: JustScott]
estuardo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 45
Loc: ohio
I have to agree with JustScott on this one. To add, for me the question becomes, 'What are my motives for masturbating?' I don't believe Jesus ever specifically addressed this issue, and the statement by Christ that lusting after another in one's heart, isn't a direct reference to masturbation, but to our sin.

Let me explain, if our motive is to think lustful thoughts, and the outcome is masturbation, masturbation isn't the sin, the lustful thoughts are.

God gave us the gift of sex for the purpose of giving pleasure to another, not just for ourselves. But then at some point, the issue needs to be addressed as what to do when sexual pleasure within the boundries of a God sanctioned relationship is interrupted due to say illness, distance, etc. If someone's urge compells them to act, which would be better: Masturbating, or committing adultry?

My 2 shekels worth.

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"I'm entitled to my opinion...even if it's wrong."

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#341363 - 10/03/10 02:58 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: estuardo]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11021
Loc: Denver, CO
Bumpty-bump.

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1. That


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#345332 - 11/15/10 08:00 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
Bradley P Offline


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 44
Loc: AR
Andy, I'll throw in my penny's worth.

I've come to wonder if Jesus's words about lust, anger, hate, and things which stem from the heart as being the same as the actions that can accompany them being the same in God's eyes were not so much about giving a mandate, or rule against those things (not that he IS pleased with them), but more a way to remind us just how sinful, and needful of God we are.

We may can take pride in the things we "don't" do or haven't done, but God says, "You still need me, because, look how badly you want to do it!" I've lately been seeing these things more of evidence of how badly I need God to stay pure...not necessarily of how bad I am.

_________________________
"Life is for living, we all know...but I don't want to live it alone"-Chris Martin (Coldplay)

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#346120 - 11/24/10 01:42 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: Bradley P]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 838
Loc: Kc,Mo
AND FOR THE RECORD I DO NOT VIEW MYSELF BETTER THAN ANYONE HERE . I AM STILL A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE

and for me this has worked for me otherwise i would not even bring it up . my hope is not to offend or set off a war but just bring what worked for me to the table that is all nothing more nothing less .

thank you








this is really simply guys Sin is Sin all i see is justification here.

all you need to do to get the answers you seek "sense this is in the spirituality section" is go to the scripture .
if you believe this is the word of God than he will reveal it to you through the spirit . or through some one who will not make the scripture fit a certain way just so you can go on justifying sin .

i no i will be the unpopular one here for being brutally honest but if you want to live your life for Christ and not for self or self gratification and you are in Christ Jesus and he in you
i believe he would reveal this to you. but in our sinful nature we want there to be justification and compromise but anyway you slice this pie


there is no compromise with sin .

it is what it is


just because it does not mention this in the scripture does not mean it is not sin .

this is honestly quite easy are you thinking about Jesus or anything holy for that matter while you masturbating ?
i highly doubt it .
here let me lend a few scriptures

1st Corinth 6:18-20

1 Corinth
7:9

1st peter
1 :13-15


Gal 5
16:20

there will be plenty of post about people who do not believe in God or the bible or what ever . so let me say this if you do not believe that is cool with me The God i believe in gives me free will so why would i not extend that same courtesy to you .

but if you call yourself a Christian and say that masturbation is not a sin than i ask that you examine yourself and ask God to reveal the scripture to you
test yourself and put yourself up against the scripture not what you want to hear from man.

i struggled with porn and masturbation for over 9 yrs and he has delivered me from this sin and i can honestly say it was the word of God that convicted me through the scriptures in a video i watched the word came alive and cut me like a double edged sword that it is "the word of God"

this is that video
http://illbehonest.com/Freedom-from-Masturbation-and-Pornography-James-Jennings

i justified it i struggled with it i cried over it i hated myself because of it because it separated me from my God and i wanted so desperately to be closer to my God it got to the point where i wanted to be closer to God rather than my sin of masturbation .
_____________________________________________________________


here is a couple of other good links

http://illbehonest.com/Freedom-from-Pornography-Masturbation-Sexual-Sin
____________________________________________________________

http://illbehonest.com/Battling-Pornography-Bob-Jennings
_____________________________________________________________






http://illbehonest.com/Is-Masturbation-a-Sin-Tim-Conway


now the only thing that might be easy to take wrong in the way he presents this is that if you are caught in your sin you might not be a true christian .because this is not true

because as long as God is dealing with you and convicting you and you are honest with God and yourself and are struggling to overcome than yes you are a true christian

no man can ? your salvation . but a true christian can not just except sin in his or her life and that just be it .

there has to renewing of the mind at work it might take yrs to overcome if you are working this thing you will overcome at some point.

other than that the teaching is sound just do take this video to the point were you doubt you are a true christian because you are sinning because ALL of us sin and will sin and all fall short . but we should always be striving for that higher calling that is in Christ Jesus.




Edited by nltsaved (09/22/12 01:27 PM)
_________________________
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Video of me telling my story
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#353574 - 02/13/11 04:25 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: nltsaved]
RecoveryReady1 Offline


Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 433
So, if you're sleeping with women and not thinking of God is that a sin as well?....

Why can't one be thinking of God while masterbating?....

Is it somehow easier to be thinking of God while having sex with a woman...or a man...

If someone had an obsession with apples and that obsession nearly ruined their life....

Do you think it would be right for them to condemn apples for everyone?....


it's not the thing it's the person......

What activity or thinking pattern hasn't been abused by someone to the point where it ruins their life?...

Does that make everything a sin?


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#354465 - 02/22/11 12:52 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: RecoveryReady1]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
smile

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~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#410927 - 09/21/12 08:33 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
peroperic2009 Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3599
Loc: South-East Europe
So guys are you do it or not smile ?
I have sometimes compulsive need to MB that can keep me busy but I now that I'm than desperate and need to escape from my reality because of some negative feelings.
In all other cases I just feel occasional need to relief my self. Any other thoughts smile ?
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My story

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#410939 - 09/21/12 11:17 AM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Magellan Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: California
Hmmm this thing about "fantasizing while masturbating" - really? A sin?

So I'm sinning when I have sexual dreams and have a wet dream? That's just ridiculous.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#410945 - 09/21/12 12:09 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
You are sinnin when lust enters your mind. Point blank plain and simple...I don't know what u dream and seems like you just want to stir the pot. So I will say you do your thing a I will do mine. We are all sinners .........I don't know why u are so hung on masterbation talk. You can whip it all day long if you choose cause you are a grown man. What does it matter what a Christian view is to you cause you have made it clear that what you believe is right. U wanna get a heated discussion started it is obvious but I am done with this topic. So as MJ said ... Just beat it
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#410946 - 09/21/12 12:10 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
But to answer your question from a biblical stand point I can give you scripture to read. But I think you already know it.
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#410947 - 09/21/12 12:15 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Magellan Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: California
Your response speaks for itself.

Thank you.
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#410949 - 09/21/12 12:20 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
....


Edited by Country (09/21/12 12:25 PM)
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#410951 - 09/21/12 12:56 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
From a Biblical standpoint, yes it teaches that lust = sin.

But a proper study will show it's more than just a thought or action, it goes to the heart, to what lies inside.

Everytime a Pharisee would step up to challenge Christ on something, He would say... "You have heard it said... but I say..."

The you have heard part always was based in the physical right here, and the but I say part always focused instead on the inside, the heart issue, the underlying thing that drove the external action.


I struggle with compulsive MB and there is always fantasy/lust tied to it, but as I've grown and learned, I've begun to see the root of it being on wounds and brokenness inside me that drive me to self-sooth etc. If I instead focus on healing from the things inside, I have confidence that the compulsive addictions I run too would decrease.

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#410952 - 09/21/12 01:04 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Magellan Offline
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: California
JustScott,

I see your point (and the point others have made). I think there is a semantic error in the argument.

I agree - if masturbation is getting in the way of healthier ways of living, then it is a problem, and if you want to be religious about it - call it a sin. But it is a problem regardless if you label it a sin or not. I think we can all agree on that.

For those of us who do not have issues with masturbation (addiction, preoccupasion, etc), then the word "sin" is ludicrous.

It's a double insult to 2/3ds of the planet that isn't Christian : buddhist, or muslim, or hindu, pagan, agnostic...... What about their experiences? Are they invalid?

No. Abuse tried to teach us that we're invalid. We're not. We're all equally affected, and not all of us believe the same religious tenets.

So, I'm seeing the argument for what it is now - people clutching to names and labels and getting triggered over it. And justifiably so. Many of us were abused inside the church, and any semblance of religious dogmatism is a trigger. For myself included.

We can all agree that if masturbating is causing issues in other areas of your life (like getting in the way of your job, your relationships), treat it like any other addiction or mal-adaptive coping mechanism. It's dysfunctional.

If it isn't causing any issues, and is providing an avenue for self love and release of anxiety, then it is a very good thing.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#410953 - 09/21/12 01:20 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
If a person is ok with something then why would they call it sin? It does, from their worldview, make no sense to do so.

Something causing a problem isn't the qualifying for it being a "sin" or not. Workaholism for example isn't a sin, but like any addiction, can have very negative effects on the rest of life.

I personally believe the Bible teaches that every life, every human being is valuable. The every person is indeed created in the image of God and therefore each bears that value and dignity. I know that your experience (and mine) have taught us that not everyone who calls themself a Christian believe this. Well a prime example would be Westboro. They call themselves Christian, but yet they are filled with such hate and bigotry. To me their actions speak louder than their declaration. Look at the life of Christ, compare it to Westboro, and you'll see no compatibility at all between the two.

Christ said that you would know His disciples by their love. Westboro doesn't show love at all, so by that qualifier their actions show they aren't followers or disciples of Christ at all. Jesus was called the "friend of sinners". He embraced and showed love and compassion to the very people the "religious" of His day despised and looked down on.

Truly... it's no different today. The "religious" of our day don't truly know or understand who Jesus is and they live in the same place and way of the Pharisees. Jesus Himself said that the day will come and many will cry out "Lord Lord" and He will say them, "Depart from me for I never knew you."


I agree with you, yesterday was indeed all about labels and triggers. I wasn't sexually abused in a church or even a religious setting, but I was certainly spiritually abuse at home by a mother who tried to use church and religion to control and manipulate her kids into who she wanted them to be.

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#410955 - 09/21/12 01:25 PM Re: Masturbation and this thread [Re: FormerTexan]
Magellan Offline
Member
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Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: California
Thank you JustScott - agree with every word you said.

D
_________________________
It's a heroes journey, and you are the hero.

Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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#411061 - 09/22/12 01:45 PM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: FormerTexan]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 838
Loc: Kc,Mo
This is something I wrote in another forum on the daily audio bibles webpage on the same issue in the men's Christian section and It got a great response Daily audio bible mens forum

I wrote this in April sometime it is almost what I wrote here a few years ago
and it was to Christians and If you are not a Christian this is fine to you are free to believe what you want again just my 2 cents take it or leave it

I give a testimony at the end of this it is not all just busting chops and a link that helped me overcome my addiction to porn


This is justification people stop compromising the bible it is very plain to see that masturbation is a sin all i see is comprise . Are you thinking of anything at all holy or even about Jesus I do not think so . Do everything unto the glory of God how in the world is masturbation giving God glory is there a way to give God glory through doing this sinful gratifying the flesh and its passionate desires which we rare plainly told to flee from come on people I can not even believe this is a real question here if it is a sin or not that is .

This is not a complicated issue it only becomes complicated when you want to compromise and justify the sin .
this drives me nuts when people try to justify sin there is no justification because it is not mentioned specifically in the bible . The bible does not mention a lot of things it does not give us permission to use it as an excuse to sin .

1 Corinthians 6:18

Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Matthew 5:28

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Galatians 5:19

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,

1 Peter 2:11

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.

Mark 7:20-23

And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”

Ephesians 5:3

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5

For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ

I could go on and on but you should get the point I hate to be harsh but is just this kind of compromise that has made the body of believers so weak and why the enemy has had such success infiltrating the church with all the compromise.
God is not esteemed as he should be the Holy Spirit is not used as mightily as it should be not to say i do this to perfection but when the truth is no longer truth than the Gospel dies and this is what happens when compromise comes in . It can not be tolerated on any level this is not an argument this is FACT that MB is a sin and to say otherwise is just a lack of maturity in the faith

Now I no you can struggle with this but it is still a sin and God knew we would struggle with sin that is why he died to overcome it I am by no means saying i am perfect and have it all together Grace can be found when you are broken over your sin God loves it when we are broken over our sin and are working on overcoming the sin through the power of the Holy Spirit not settling with the sin giving it victory in our lives.

God want us to overcome the sin in our lives not compromise it and justify it . I do not care if it takes 10 yrs to overcome the sin as long as you are working on it through the power of the Holy Spirit i believe there is grace i do not believe grace is found in justifying the act of sin it is vile to God sin is hostile to God and it is not of God to say i am just going to allow this sin to have mastery over me .

Grace abounds when we are broken over the sin and are trying to overcome it and I might also add that is could be someones thorn in there flesh keeping them calling out to God to overcome . I was addicted to porn for over 9yrs and I NEVER was satisfied with my sin and knew this was no of God i fought and fought and cried and I would buy it and get mad and break it into pieces and go a month or a couple of days or weeks without it and than fall and this went on for over 9 yrs and it kept me broken it kept me calling out to God for his mercy and Grace and i was seeking his mercy and grace and i knew that no matter how long it took through the power of the spirit i would overcome this .

For those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled

I believe this wholeheartedly and this is where people do not understand
ask seek knock and it shall be given God never says when he will answer he wants you to build up your most holy faith and continue to seek him for deliverance some of this stuff is to build up your faith how can you build up your faith denying the fact that sin is sin.

I finally got my deliverance because i was broken over my sin i was searching the internet yet again for help in the mater of pornography I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness and came across this website

http://illbehonest.com/Freedom-from-Masturbation-and-Pornography-James-Jennings

and when the guy gave his testimony and read 1st Cor 6:9-10 instantly i felt the power of God sweep over me for some reason i had read that passage so many times but this time i really took i it to heart as if God himself was speaking to me and i took it literally and from that day on i was delivered i was set free and as we all know who are addicted to anything sometimes it seems hopeless but i was set free that day and it was because i did not compromise or settle for excuses.

I could have plenty of excuses even the fact that i was molested by 2 males from the age of 7 until i was almost 13yrs old i could have said well God you no my past you know that i was raised around this stuff and you know my lustful heart because of these things but i know just like everyone knows sin is sin because the spirit convicts of sin . Some just choose to dismiss the spirit and this is why people do not have the victory over some things they quench the spirit by not listening to it and because we are not lifting up the name of Jesus and giving him the Glory when we are delivered so many are ashamed of what God has brought them out of and many stay in the dark because of the shame or guilt even though they have been set free or are working on being be delivered . People will overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimonies


here are some good links to watch may God get the glory

http://illbehonest.com/Freedom-from-Masturbation-and-Pornography-James-Jennings

http://illbehonest.com/Freedom-from-Pornography-Masturbation-Sexual-Sin

http://illbehonest.com/Freed-from-Pornography-by-Being-Satisfied-in-Christ-James-Jennings


Edited by nltsaved (09/22/12 02:36 PM)
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#441133 - 07/17/13 06:09 AM Re: Masturbation and Spirituality [Re: MarkK]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3007
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: MarkK
Good topic, Andy.

The way I had it explained to me is it depends on what is in your heart/mind while M. If you are thinking of the pleasure, what's happening, the enjoyment - there is no problem. However, if you're thinking about taking advantage of another - fantasizing of a person already married, etc - then there is a problem.

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he."

I think that says it all ... for me anyhoo-- my 2 cents.

M


i see your 2 cents and raise you 2 more, because i agree with your statement 100%. it makes perfect cents smile
you said it better than i could, and you wrapped it up in a nice small package.

thanks
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