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#187685 - 10/17/07 08:08 PM Drop the Corps
John Oarc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 633
Loc: Louisiana

I heard a preacher talking this morning and he made some good points about forgiveness.

Holding on to the anger and pain of the abuse is like strapping a corps to your back. If you carry it around long enough it will begin to infect you and jeopardize your health. The best medicine is to drop the dead weight that is imprisoning you before it takes your life.

Forgiveness may seem like a strange term at any point in the recovery process but it’s not for the abuser its for us, so we can get on with our life. Letting go of the people that cause us harm does not mean we think its okay that they have harmed us, we are not saying we liked the abuse, we don't have to like them or like what they do or what they have done or agree with their lifestyle to be able to forgive them. We don't have to love them, just let them go. Forgive them and let them go for or own health.

This is not as easy as just reading what has been written and I know that, it took me years to figure out that I had the right to be angry, more years passed by before I realized I had lost so much and began hating the abuser, even more time passed before I could say, "I forgive you" and move on with my own life. I just thought it might help to bring this subject up once again, it has been in the threads many times and always seems to be controversial and it is, because it’s not easy forgiving something so heinous.

If you are having trouble with forgiveness try starting out by thinking of it as letting go or cutting the corps away from your back and take it slow from there. You are not giving in nor are you agreeing with the abuse or the abuser you’re just getting it out of your system.

It works guys, don't give up hope.

_________________________
Whatever It Takes, God


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#187717 - 10/18/07 12:27 AM Re: Drop the Corps [Re: John Oarc]
OKIE MIKE Offline
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Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 982
Loc: HULBERT OK
"It will be a cold day in Hell" before I forgive the person that raped me

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#187720 - 10/18/07 01:07 AM Re: Drop the Corps [Re: OKIE MIKE]
healing_inside Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
John,

I dropped the corps several years ago and having that dead thing off my shoulders was a life changing experience.

I forgave, but I will not forget.

-Jim

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#187727 - 10/18/07 01:52 AM Re: Drop the Corps [Re: OKIE MIKE]
scotia1 Offline
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Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Forgiveness I think is the wrong word here. Perhaps the preacher you heard doesn’t truly understand what the word really means. Or at least doesn’t really understand what it means to someone who was sexually abused as a child. Letting go of the pain is understanding that is wasn’t your fault, understanding that it was the abusers (the perp) fault 100%. Forgiveness may be granted only to those who ask for forgiveness. How than can you forgive someone that doesn’t ask for forgiveness? The answer is simple, you don’t.

Letting go is something entirely different but is often confused with forgiveness. Getting rid of that heavy load on your back “the corps” can be accomplished by means other than forgiveness. Getting rid of that corps can also be achieved by “letting go”, truly understanding that it wasn’t your fault, you were just a kid (whatever age that was).

I think it’s wrong of someone (including clergy) to suggest that you must forgive in order to heal. I know they are wrong, I can attest to that.

Scotia


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#187748 - 10/18/07 08:01 AM Re: Drop the Corps [Re: scotia1]
pietie Offline
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Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 326
Loc: South Africa
From my experience it was really like a wight lifted from my shoulder the day I was able to say I gorgive them for what they did.

And to me its not because of any pressure from clergy or friends it was purely because I knew it was the right thing to do, that it was holding me back from a full life and kept me bitter.

And I dont agree the person need to ask my forgivness. Its my choice to forgive and try to let go. Its something that will rlease my potential and MY healing. So if they never ask, as I know the cant I have done my part. They will have to forgive themselves at one satge in their lives.

John thanks for sharing the image, it is so accurate to me personally.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#187752 - 10/18/07 08:18 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: scotia1]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: scotia1
Forgiveness may be granted only to those who ask for forgiveness. How than can you forgive someone that doesn’t ask for forgiveness? The answer is simple, you don’t.

I completely disagree. It has been my experience and training that forgiveness is something that happens inside of me and has absolutely nothing to do with the other person asking. The person doesn't even need to know you have forgiven them.

One of the issues I've noticed is the confusion of "forgiveness" with "reconciliation". They are not the same. Forgiveness simply means I no longer hold someone in anger for what they have done. I forgive the deed. Doesn't mean I trust them, or that I will even be in communication with them. Just that I let it go.

Whether it is "necessary" to heal - that I don't know, except to say that since forgiveness is an important part of who I am - I believe FOR ME the act of forgiveness is crucial to complete healing. I see it as a very real goal in my recovery. ONE of the many goals I have and, again - for me, one of great value.

M


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#187757 - 10/18/07 08:38 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
Paul1959 Offline
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Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 525
Loc: NYC
I think forgiveness is at the very end of a long, long, journey that can take decades to travel. It does include, most of all, letting it go - not assuaging blame or responsibility, just letting go - cutting them out of your life.

If even the thought of forgiveness is an athema to you, then don't worry about it, you aren't there yet, might be years, might be never.

Just cause someone else has reached that point doesn't mean you should feel bad that you aren't there. We each have our journey. It's great to hear the perspective from the guys near the end of their healing.

Paul


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#187759 - 10/18/07 08:43 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Paul1959]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
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Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Paul1959
Just cause someone else has reached that point doesn't mean you should feel bad that you aren't there. We each have our journey. It's great to hear the perspective from the guys near the end of their healing.

Very well put, Paul. "We each have our own journey" is so dead-on-center. Thank you for saying it.

And I agree - it's very beneficial to hear from those who are farther along their own road to healing. It lets us know we are not alone, and there is life ahead on this road, even though sometimes it doesn't feel like it.

M


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#187772 - 10/18/07 11:08 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
Woundedheart Offline
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Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 31
Loc: K.C. MO.
Forgiveness to me is a long, long road that's travelled daily. It can't be rushed or forced. It doesn't justify, or take away any of the damaged caused, but it is a choice which truely frees me from his/their/my grip. I was mad as hell, at them, at myself, and at God. I am coming to terms with each as time passes by. Some more than others.

Richard.


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#187776 - 10/18/07 11:34 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Woundedheart]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
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Loc: Colorado
We use the word "acceptance" instead of "forgiveness" in our group. Not quite the same but I think the load is lessoned in the same way.

Mike



Edited by mogigo (10/18/07 11:34 AM)
_________________________
Thriving

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#187780 - 10/18/07 11:39 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: mogigo]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
You have to love semantics, and how a word that works for one might have a completely different connotation to another.

For me, "acceptance" is something I could never do. At least, not at this point in my recovery.

I guess what matters the most is we find what we need to heal, and progress at a rate that is beneficial for us.

I like this thread \:\)

M


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#187785 - 10/18/07 12:17 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
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Forgiveness came easy for me John, didn't help worth a shit though.


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#187798 - 10/18/07 01:29 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Hauser]
frost Offline
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Registered: 03/15/07
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Loc: Eh?
Where I once said "Forgiveness is overrated" when asked if I ever planned to forgive my abuser, I now think my mind has come to realize it does need to forgive. Like Mark said, it has something to do with inside me, for me. It has nothing to do with the person you're forgiving.

I'm not ready for it yet; but I do think it is something I'll considering more as time passes and as I continue on this journey.

Johnoarc, thanks for sharing this post on your thoughts. It is clearly a hot issue here and I think it's different for everyone. I was raised in a Christian home and part of my growing up was learning about forgiveness and its importance. As I said I had previously decided I would never forgive the abuser but... things have changed now. I'm finding myself pulled in that direction despite not wanting to go there. I think because of how I was raised, I'll need to forgive to find a new level of freedom from this.

Cheers,
~Brian

_________________________
Boom!

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#187802 - 10/18/07 01:42 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: frost]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Forgiveness is never something that a person can just cognitively do. It is a process that has to be worked through.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#187803 - 10/18/07 01:44 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
frost Offline
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Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 1377
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Originally Posted By: BJK
Forgiveness is never something that a person can just cognitively do. It is a process that has to be worked through.


A great point Bryan... So true.

_________________________
Boom!

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#187805 - 10/18/07 01:45 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Hauser]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Hauser
Forgiveness came easy for me John, didn't help worth a shit though.


I don't mean to pick on you Alan, but I don't believe you've forgiven anyone. I don't think you've even worked out the reasons why you need to forive Kim, and I know for a fact that you haven't forgiven your parents.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#187806 - 10/18/07 01:46 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: frost]
buzz_key Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
i'll NEVER forgive my dad...

buzz


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#187807 - 10/18/07 01:48 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: buzz_key]
buzz_key Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
wow bryan, you are quite the counselor these days...this is the second post of yours today to alan i've read and you are really just setting him straight, huh?
buzz


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#187810 - 10/18/07 02:11 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: buzz_key]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Alan and I talk a lot in chat. He's been kind of a life saver for me, so I hope he doesn't think I'm being too harsh...

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#187863 - 10/18/07 10:28 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
John Oarc Offline
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 633
Loc: Louisiana
Great discussion on this thread, I love all you guys. Some of the strongest people on the planet in my opinion.

_________________________
Whatever It Takes, God


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#187868 - 10/18/07 11:50 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Here's where it's weird for me-
My first abuser OBVIOUSLY was "passing it on"- an 11 YO girl could not in my estimation have made a conscious choice to abuse me. I still am not completely sure if it was her stepfather, or her cousin. At the time, she complained about her stepfather constantly (nothing specific, just didn't like him). But her 16 YO male cousin was the weird one. I still have mixed feelings to this day about that. That first abuse, being both sexual and physical, set me up for much down the road, including the abuser whom I hold COMPLETELY responsible. He was an adult (at least 40 YO), I was a child (12 YO), therefore a conscious choice.
I "accept" what happened to me as having happened, and I forgave Wendy long ago...but my oh-so-nice buddy Renard? He was a pathetic sight even then, obviously not a man-about-town, i pity him... but for now i CANNOT forgive him. Christ or Christ-like i am not, no can do. A-hole made a choice, compulsion or not. (end of rant)

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#187870 - 10/19/07 12:13 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
Bryan,

You say "Forgiveness is never something that a person can just cognitively do. It is a process that has to be worked through"
For me this is so true.

I just happened out of the blue one day, I guess I was ready internally.

-Jim

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#187873 - 10/19/07 12:44 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: healing_inside]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
John may I hijack this thread? Ok Bryan maybe you caught me with a little white lie, so let me re-phrase the statement. I sympathize with my abusers. But doesn't that automatically mean that I forgive them? Cuz that's what I feel like.

Hell I don't know.....................


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#187875 - 10/19/07 12:54 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: John Oarc]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: John Oarc
Great discussion on this thread, I love all you guys. Some of the strongest people on the planet in my opinion.



I don't know what the heck you're talking about John, I fold up like a cheap lawn chair just trying to fill out a resume for a potential employer.


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#187876 - 10/19/07 12:58 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Hauser]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
sounds like your worried about how they'll feel Haus. I spent too much time giving away myself to please other's, felt like my life depended on it.

Being numb about it isn't forgiveness.

Guessing Hauser.

Stay strong
Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#187903 - 10/19/07 06:53 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Hauser]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Hauser
John may I hijack this thread? Ok Bryan maybe you caught me with a little white lie, so let me re-phrase the statement. I sympathize with my abusers. But doesn't that automatically mean that I forgive them? Cuz that's what I feel like.


Well...I sympathize with my mother. I used to think that meant I forgave her. My sister is the one who cautioned me not to be so quick to think that I forgive my mother. The anger all kind of came crashing down one night, and it really hasn't passed.

I'm with a lot of people in this thread when they say that they will never forgive their abusers, but my belief about it is a little bit different. I don't THINK I'll ever be able to forgive my mother, but to me forgiveness is a selfish act. To me, forgiveness is about saying to my abuser, "I know what you did to me was wrong, but I'm not letting it control my life anymore."

It is truly my belief that healing isn't completely possible without forgiveness.

However, I must note that the things that a lot of people have endured on this board are beyond my rhealm of capacity to forgive. I urge everyone to at least try, though. I'm trying my hardest to forgive my mother. Obviously, I'm not there yet, and there are many days that I simply do not want to.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#187906 - 10/19/07 07:12 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Just wanted to let you know, Bryan:
By even being able to post that, you are a hero to me.
Most people I know don't even begin to be that strong...

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#187907 - 10/19/07 07:15 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Hauser]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
...at least you can get to the company's front door and can talk to the receptionist ;\)

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#187983 - 10/19/07 10:30 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Woundedheart]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Sorry, but the best I can do is raise a sarcastic laugh when I hear this one now in the way it is portrayed. A preacher/priest telling us to forgive - how many paedophile priests were protected by the church (of any de>
_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#187988 - 10/19/07 10:46 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
"put into the vote"?
ok - i'm confused


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#187989 - 10/19/07 10:54 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: RICK57

This topic has been here live on this site many times! Will someone please give me one valid reason why we must forgive a perverted paedophile for what they did.


Forgiveness isn't about letting someone off the hook. It's not about about them. It's about you. Forgiveness, for me, is selfish. For me, it's an acknowledgement that what was done to me no longer controls me. It's like the old saying "forgive and forget". I can forgive, but I will never forget.

I am a devout agnostic, Rick. I refuse to believe anything that cannot be proven. I do know one thing, though. My life has gotten a lot better since I have started trying to forgive the people who have messed me up. I don't anticipate I'll ever be able to completely forgive my mother, but to me...it's the one power I have over her. But holding on to that power only makes me more like her; therefore, I'm trying to release it. That is a work in progress.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#187991 - 10/19/07 11:04 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
MarkK - we've had this topic many times, and some of us have been practically called 'sons of satan' because we either cannot forgive, or refuse to forgive. It's almost as though we are the guilty ones for being abused, which we all know is not true. The only people that should feel guilty are the abusers.

I took the paedophile (English spelling) that abused myself and others to court, and observed his behaviour over 3 decades after the event/s. He has zero remorse regarding what he did to either myself or others that presented a case against him.

Once the court case was over, that should have been it, but as he denied what he had done / admitted what he had done to achieve a reduced sentence, then denied it again, the only thing I really care about him now is finding out that he has died. I would like to ask him why he did what he did before then, but I do not walk around every day wanting to do this.

I have a decent life now, and that is what is important. I will dance the day I know he is dead & I will enjoy a decent bottle of champagne. I've said it every time this post appears, the only time I get strung up about forgiveness is when someone tells me 'I am not a whole person until I do so'. Sorry, but for me that is just so much more rubbish than I can accept' Of all the people on this planet, the only energy I should be applying to abusers now, is to get them arrested and jailed! Forgive them? NO!!!

I appreciate the other argument, that unless you forgive, you do not let go...we have had many dictionary definitions here before, and forgiveness basically means that you no longer hold the perpetrator to account, nor seek any retribution for what they have done. That means accepting that it is OK for paedophiles to continue abusing children!

Best wishes ...Rik

As for 'the vote' - I am starting 2 new topics about now.

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#187992 - 10/19/07 11:09 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
i've not seen anyone called anything close to a "son of satan" because they don't forgive - for any reason. but i apologize if i've ever said anything that would lead you or anyone to that conclusion.

honestly, however, i like i've been chopped to bits for believing that forgiveness is right for me. like i'm some demented idiot because i found value in it.

and if we can't have a topic countless times - then what? we start policing now? say ... after 100 times we can no longer discuss a certain topic? or just a given viewpoint - but opposites are ok?

sorry - i have to quit now. i'm so upset i can hardly find the keyboard.

but, for what it's worth - my forgiving does NOT mean i'm saying it's right for ANY one to be abused. just for the record.


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#187996 - 10/19/07 11:35 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: RICK57
forgiveness basically means that you no longer hold the perpetrator to account, nor seek any retribution for what they have done. That means accepting that it is OK for paedophiles to continue abusing children!


Yes, it means that you no longer hold the perp to account. Yes, it means that you no longer seek retribution. No, it does not mean that it is okay for the perp to continue to abuse children.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#187998 - 10/19/07 11:46 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
MarkK - my words are only text, there is no anger in them, they are only words. We can have a topic as many times as we want- every single one of us can make whatver comments we feel that we should, so long as we do not intentionally insult someone else (myself included).

I have not set out to 'chop you to bits', and there is NO WAY THAT I DO NOT WANT YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU FEEL HERE.
I do not personally think that you think it is OK for anyone to be abused, but this topic has been raised so many times (and I and others have been practically told that we are evil because we cannot forgive in the past). *I joined in Dec 2003
You have no reason to apologise at all - I was merely tryin to respond to your question about 'putting it to the vote', a topic for which I have raised 2 new posts.

The topic of forgiveness always seems to cause fall out, because people interpret the topic in different ways.

My point that I always try to put across, is that there are much more important things in my life than forgiving the paedophile (and if it's not really about forgiving the paedophile, but myself, then what have I to forgive myself about).

This is the way I can best describe it:

In the morning, should I get up out of bed and think. I need to do some forgiveness today (I am not trying to be sarcastic even if it sounds like I am).

No- It'll be more like the following:
1/ I'll wake up (hopefully).
2/ I'll set the shower running so that the water runs warm.
3/ Whilst the shower is warming up, I'll put some porridge in the microwave and warm some coffee.
4/ Get out of shower, eat breakfast, drink coffee, read newspaper, watch news on television.
5/ Telephone Niece / Goddaughter / Goddson / friends etc.
6/ Demolish patio wall
7/ Clear debris
8/ Eat something
9/ Build new wall

See, what I'm trying to get at there, is that there's a life to be lived, forgiving a paedophile doesn't come into it!

If what you really mean by forgiving, is letting go, then see 1 to 9. The best way you let go is by living!

My personal experience is that you can put it to the back of your mind for so long, but that is not forgiving. Neither is it really forgetting, because it comes back and bites you.

The other thing I would say, is always read what is posted several times, to check that the post is written in the way that it appears to be on first reading.

Best wishes ...RIk (and keep posting)

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#188001 - 10/19/07 11:57 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Bryan - see this is where the discussion could go on forever by the way that we interpret words.

By not holding a perp to account, nor seeking retribution, it does mean that they are free to continue abusing children (even if you do not consider it is OK for them to do so). I do have some guilt over that subject, because I personally took over 30 years to actually go to the police. That is the one thing that I can associate forgiveness to myself with - the fact that I was the first person to come forward even though many others had been abused and not come forward. Regarding the actual abuse that I was subject to, then I have nothing to forgive myself about, nor will I ever forgive the abuser.

I'm logging off now (UK), so I'm not ignoring anyone, it's just late here).

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#188003 - 10/20/07 12:11 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Rick,

My intentions in incarcerating anyone, even people who abuse children, is to protect society...not to punish the person who abused. That is why I still feel that some kind of consequences are still required dispite the fact that my intention is to not hold the perp accountable for her transgressions towards me.

That being said, I think the reason why this topic continues to come up is because it is an important one. It sounds like it's an important one to you, as well. Just know this. I will never judge you for your ability or inability to forgive even though I might try to convince you to at least try.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#188009 - 10/20/07 02:09 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Woundedheart]
scotia1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Well guys it seems that each person has their own version of what forgiveness is. Personally I don’t understand any other version other than if someone asked me “do you forgive me”. I would reply “ yes I do forgive you” or “no I don’t forgive you”. Or perhaps “maybe”. However, how can you really forgive someone such as a paedophile that doesn’t think he/she has done anything wrong? Someone that thinks it is natural and normal to have sex with children? Truly guys, how can we forgive someone for this?

This post (by Oarc) is about healing, not forgiving. It is about the victims recovering. It is not about forgiving the paedophile for what he/she did!

When a child is sexually assaulted it has many many affects on that child. As the child becomes an adult, it also has profound affects on the variety of people that child (survivor) comes in contact with. The prep (Paedophile, rapist, etc) has done great harm. It is not something we or society as a whole can simply say “you are forgiven for molesting a child”. The harm is deep, and forever lastly. This is not something to forgive so easily, or to pass it on as to say “please don’t do it again”

After a 15+ year legal struggle I finally have my prep behind bars, and awaiting trial. After 35+ years of dealing with my CSA I am finally getting close to meeting my abuser head on. My day in court is finally near.

After countless psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, lawyers, police and politicians, and I am still here standing. Just the other day someone asked me “if your abuser asked you for forgiveness what would you say”. My answer was “I don’t know”. The reason simply is, after dealing with this issue head on for so so long, I realise one thing “it was not my fault”. It was totally my abusers fault because I was a child, and adults are totally responsible for such behaviour. That is was counts. Once you realise this guys, you will not have to contemplate “should I forgive my abuser”. He/she did wrong, do did nothing wrong at all, and it all comes down to that.

The day at hand is nearing. I will be in the fighting for you guys and for all victims of CSA. My prep has molested many many children. Does he really deserve forgiveness? Time will tell.

Take Care,

Scotia


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#188015 - 10/20/07 06:39 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: scotia1]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Alas, the definition of forgivenss that I favor in this context is "To renounce anger or resentment against". This not only has absolutely nothing to do with how the perp feels, achieving this state is essential to my healing.



Edited by BJK (10/20/07 06:43 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#188017 - 10/20/07 06:57 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: BJK]
SEVEN ARROWS Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 1298
I cannot and never will use the word forgivness, to those that abused me.
This is something i can never forgive someone for.


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#188025 - 10/20/07 09:58 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: SEVEN ARROWS]
John Oarc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 633
Loc: Louisiana

Just a thought to ponder,

According to the Bible people who do not turn from evil or people who do not ask for forgiveness and repent ultimately end up in hell, again according to the Bible- not me.

Therefore, God “drops the corps” when there is no remorse and no change in behavior, there is no forgiveness and hell is the eternal destination right?

With that said, we should feel less guilt ridden if we choose not to forgive the ones who do not care what they do to others and continue the lifestyle to their death bed.

Forgiveness, the only way to rid you from this crazy ride, not true, I am positive it is not the only way. If God has limits, I think its okay for all of us as well.

I think you can drop the corps or let the perp go for your own health and wellbeing with the proper semantics or without them. I think the key is knowing that it does not mean you are okay with what happen, you don’t like what happen, you don’t agree that it was appropriate. You are not releasing the perp from the crime you are releasing yourself from it in order to get on with your life and that means dropping the past and moving forward without the corps.

Another key element is knowing that waking up one day and saying “I will drop the corps today” is not the way it happens, it is a process. Kind of like a light bulb going off in your head, it just happens after working and processing it for some time.

This is a discussion forum, so I kind of think we should have discussion. Discussion means we hear all sides of the point without the emotional baggage of who is right and who is wrong. What is right for you has everything to do with about a million different variables and can not be predicted. What you feel has a lot to do with your stage in your own recovery. When I was in the stage of discovery I hated the perp and forgiveness was the last thing on my mind. As timed passed I changed many times over. So with that said, just remember we are all at different stages with different views.

I hope we can keep and open mind and allow others to express themselves without feeling they will be condemned for their thoughts.

_________________________
Whatever It Takes, God


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#188092 - 10/20/07 07:56 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: John Oarc]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I was going to add something profound, but I've had a good day today, and forgot what it was I was going to say!

But then again, I remembered. I've been clearing my patio that was totally overgrown. Each year, I've cut the plants back because they were taking over the yard. Every time I cut them back, they just came back stronger. Most of the plants in there had memories attached to them. I remember where and when I bought some of them, but some of the most intrusive ones were bought for me by people who are now dead!

I felt really guilty taking those plants out and sending them to the recycling plant. I am about to replant the whole area with plants that I have selected.

I will forgive myself for destroying my patio plants as soon as the new ones grow. I will not forget the clematis that flowered every May (40 foot spread), that was bought for me.

Life is about balance, if people do good things for you, then you can forget the bad. If people only do bad things to you, then **** them!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#188100 - 10/20/07 09:49 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: RICK57]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6607
Loc: FEMA Region 1
I truly want to let the anger and rage go. I truly do! However, I'll need to do that without forgiving them. I fully believe that the perps need to ASK ME FOR FORGIVENESS before I can grant it.

Will I let the anger and rage go? I hope so. I'm trying to now. The taste is so bitter. The effects are so powerfuly negative.

_________________________
Hell needs firewood too ya know!

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#188105 - 10/20/07 10:08 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Still]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
Rob,

I hear ya, but what if a perp is dead?

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#188106 - 10/20/07 10:23 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Still]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I kind of hope I never reach the point where I can "forgive", where what was done to me becomes "OK" and no longer bothers me. I was complacent and cooperative when I was a kid. I "looked the other way" quite enough while I was abused. The ability to be upset, the ability to be indignant about what was done to me, is a new found ability that I treasure so much. The ability to stand up and say "NO - what was done to be was NOT right, and it is NOT okay" gives me a measure of power over my perps, NOT the other way round. It reminds me that I matter. And I find this "let bygones be bygones" suggestion to be a suggestion that what was done to me did not, in fact, matter after all. That's what forgiveness means, in the most objective sense. And I'm not going to cheat and change the definition of forgiveness so that I can somehow "forgive" my perps WITHOUT saying that what happened to me was just fine. My perps hurt kids. Forget that it was me - that doesn't even matter. They HURT KIDS. With intent and absolutely no remorse.

If there's a God, He can forgive them if he wants. I am not God.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#188413 - 10/22/07 11:26 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Still]
Mike 999 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 18
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
I fully believe that the perps need to ASK ME FOR FORGIVENESS before I can grant it.


AMEN to that Robbie

_________________________
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Benjamin Franklin

Knowing and not doing is equal to not knowing at all.



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#188488 - 10/23/07 05:35 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: Mike 999]
River Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
Do you think forgiveness is a choice or is it more of a process? If I could choose... I believe I would have already make that choice..right? I am a long way to forgiving my perpetrator, which is complicated by his death. The other perpetrator was a stranger ... that kind of complicates things also. I cannot imagine forgiving for the perps benefit... it has to be for my benefit. As for the "stuff" that comes from the pulpits of our "most sacred places" ... I just don't know. What I do know is that God's grace is just BIG ENOUGH for me today.



Edited by River (10/23/07 05:38 PM)
_________________________
GD

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#188495 - 10/23/07 06:56 PM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: River]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
I think it's more a process in these cases. It makes no sense to say one day "I forgive perp X" and then be pissed about it all again the next day. It does make sense to process the hurt and anger, then be able to forgive it.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#188560 - 10/24/07 04:03 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: FormerTexan]
Mike 999 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 18
Loc: Midwest
I totally agree with you Tex. Its not like someone is asking forgiveness for breaking your new toy this is your childhood they broke.

_________________________
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Benjamin Franklin

Knowing and not doing is equal to not knowing at all.



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#188601 - 10/24/07 10:05 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: frost]
Power_water Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Portland, OR, USA
I conciously believe in the concept of forgiveness. I Tried it. With utter conviction, I tried it three very seperate times.

I told my self, and God and, my abusers (who weren't there at the time, I was alone)

I told them that I forgave them, and put them into God's hands

But just weeks or months later, new pain and, new memories/flashbacks and new HATRED would burst into my mind with overpowering bright hot burning force. Evil and sick, twisted and torturing, of loathing and shame.

And I would wonder to myself, as I lay curled in a fetal position on the floor, Did I really forgive them? Can I ever?
I think the answere is I still have to dig deeper, and find out more. And I can't do it alone.

Maybe in time. I would really like to cut the corpse off of my back.
I would really like to let it go and feel free of the unpredictible rising flame of burning hatrid, that I sometimes missplace on others. Oh well, only time and God will tell. And I do see SLOW but real improvement, two steps forward, one and a half steps back.

I want to forgive, but I feel like God hasn't given me the power yet.

_________________________
Bring works of darkness to light

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#188893 - 10/27/07 02:44 AM Re: Drop the Corpse [Re: SEVEN ARROWS]
scotia1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Rick 57 “I appreciate the other argument, that unless you forgive, you do not let go...we have had many dictionary definitions here before, and forgiveness basically means that you no longer hold the perpetrator to account, nor seek any retribution for what they have done. That means accepting that it is OK for pedophiles to continue abusing children!”

I agree with your way of thinking. I came forward to the police about my CSA because I didn’t want this guy to hurt any more children. I had knowledge that there was a child molester out there and he was probably hurting more and more children. He is now behind bars awaiting the trial. His plea was “not guilty” and therefore he has no remorse. I believe CSA is a very big problem in the world and unless people do something it will continue and probably get worse. Child molesters that have no remorse should not be forgiven, ever!


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