Newest Members
tammy m, TheConqueror, Bloom, JohnWC, KKumar
12423 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
biggbill70 (44), CP4 (24), EddieMi (46), EddieT (46), hemi1024 (54), Kage (70), kdj_74 (40), Knightswhitehart (49), otlhouston (47), TX_Space (47), VirtualBman (50)
Who's Online
1 registered (Scott1962), 30 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12423 Members
74 Forums
63796 Topics
445499 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#183146 - 09/28/07 11:53 AM How to Talk About Sexuality
kellygtx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas, USA
To Female Spouses - How do you talk about sexuality?

Don't laugh - I have been married 21 years and we have never really talked about sexuality. I don't know how to approach the subject.

I do have sexuality issues...but that does mean I don't love her and have every intention of staying with her and not acting on my impulses - but talking about them with her may help. She thinks anything but 100% straight is immoral but I don't think I am 100% straight - but that does not mean I don't love her. I have not cut myself (and if any of you have read some of my previous posts you know this is a BIG issue for me) and have not acted out in over 9 months - but I still struggle sometimes (thank god for Zanex). Is just talking about it betrayal?



Edited by kellygtx (09/28/07 12:04 PM)
_________________________
I bid you Peace.

Kelly

The time is always NOW. Breath In. Breath Out. Move On.

Top
#183182 - 09/28/07 02:57 PM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: kellygtx]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Dear Kelly:

I hope you don't mind but I've PM'd you regarding this.

S-n-S

_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

Top
#183211 - 09/28/07 05:31 PM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: sweet-n-sour]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Kelly,

I'm hoping you get some public posts about this just because I'd like to read them. But thus far you've gotten at least two private PM's. Guess that shows what a touchy subject this can be.

So here's some of my feelings about this: Is talking betrayel? No, not necessarily. Is talking about the fact that having multiple affairs over many years was a lot of fun and fulfilled deep sexual and emotional longings and was (possibly is) more important than keeping your wife both emotionally and physically safe a betrayel of sorts? Sure. Because we enter into family-building with the assumption that we're doing so with someone who more or less cares about us -- at least enough not to keep us around merely for personal gain, at least enough that that person would shy away from exposing us to life-threatening diseases, etc....

No love is perfect and people make mistakes, even big ones. But 14 years is a lifestyle, not a mistake.

Your wife has given you her love, five children, a home, security, trust, etc.... She's given all those things that humans give eachother when we marry and develop a family. It's pretty difficult to accept that everything she's given you, and perhaps anything she could possibly give you, is a close race with anonymous sex with men.

This is no longer a simple issue of sexuality. It's an issue of life's meaning, of a hierarchy of values. On first blush it looks like men are so important to you that they're more important, not just than women, but your entire life.

Should you talk about this? Probably. But don't expect her to accept your "sexuality" as though it's disconnected from everything else, cuz it's not.

It's deeply connected to just what role she's been playing in your life, just what value you place on her as a human being with rights and wishes and dreams of her own, just what value you place on the fact she's given you and helped raise 5 children, cooked meals, made beds, washed cloths, worried about her children, her family, and you.

All this and a quick fling in the sheets with a man you don't even know is more important? More important than literally the life (AIDS) of the person who has given so much?

Sorry to be so blunt and I really do empathize with you as well because of the profound difficulties you've had in your life and respect so much the way you trying to turn things around. But I also really empathize with your wife.

I have no doubt you love her and have loved her but there's a difference between loving and loving well. Turning what ought to be expressions of love (sex) into a game of Russian roulette (possibility of AIDS, etc) isn't really loving very well, despite the fact you might in many other ways be a loving person.

So, now you want to know if just merely talking about sexuality is abusive? No it's never abusive. But talking about how much fun you've had while decieving,manipulating and threatening the health of your wife isn't exactly non-abusive, maybe it's not abusive per se, but it's not exactly fun either. And it would be abusive if it's not put in it's appropriate context: a pretty heavy and heavily destructive one. To assume it's a matter of the peculiar nature of sexuality isn't really what's at issue, though it's certainly PART of the equation, but it's a rather minor part at this point in many ways.

What's more important is whether you know without a doubt that whatever fantasies you may or may not have about men is irrelevant (though true) to your relationship at hand. If it's still really relevant then perhaps you need to let her know so that she can protect herself and make informed decisions, something she's been deprived of for a very long time. And something that's pretty fundamental to expressing our humanity.

Should you talk? Sure. Should you be honest? You bet. Is this abusive? Not at all. But to expect her to embrace the fact that you've been expressing wonderful sexual feelings and having a wonderful time for the last 14 years at her expense is abusive.

What do expect of her? "Oh sweetie, that's just wonderful, I'm so glad you like men so much and have had such a wonderful sex life with them all these years behind my back. I truly accept and understand your bisexuality and hope to embrace not only you but your sexuality"? SOME women actually take this tack -- and good for them. But to expect this is totally unreasonable.

From what you've written, you find men more sexually exciting in some way and are still trying to figure out the nature of the excitement.

You write that you doubt you're 100% straight. Yeah, I sort of doubt it too because 100% straight men don't find sex with men to be exciting. But what we mean, among other things, by the phrase "straight" is a deep emotional connection to heterosexuality. Bisexual or gay are not the only alternatives to the lack of this connection, there's other possibilities -- like an undeveloped sexuality, attachment disorders, attachments to non-relational things (one's own body parts, objects, etc...). But only you can figure that one out.

It's one thing to be involved with a man who is "bisexual", another thing to be involved with a man for whom men are more important than his heterosexual life (wife, children, etc...) and the common decency of basic human values. It's one thing to get over infidelity. It's another thing to be told that the infidelity was a wonderful and fulfilling experience..... and one that is deeply missed, pondered about, fantasized about, more exciting than anything you've ever experienced, etc....

It's been heartwrenching to hear Rob talk in similar terms. I've had to go very deep in my own self to sort this out. My conclussion? That when a mother performs perverse acts on a child the child grows up to be tragically perverse.

And it's not his sexuality per se that's perverse, it's how he has employed it, it's relational context. To me it feels like the lack of attachments gets expressed through anti-social sexuality (literally meant, "without sociality").

But when he talks about how thrilling sex with men is then I wonder just to what extent he's merely bisexual....

Or just to what extent he's eroticises destruction, bribing, sneaking, being the "bad little boy", etc....

It's pretty difficult to figure out, and frankly, like you, only he can. Neither alternative bodes well for me, that's for sure.

Take care,
Katie


Top
#183212 - 09/28/07 06:01 PM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: Kathryn]
mmac Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/21/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PA
Kathryn,
Thank you for expressing your feelings on this often neglected subject. Sexuality is a difficult part of CSA and trying to be understanding as a partner is often an unattainable goal. Be good
to YOU my friend.
M

_________________________
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

I cannot take your steps, but I can walk beside you, if you'll let me.

Top
#183257 - 09/28/07 11:39 PM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: mmac]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


P.S.

It just seems to me that stark honesty is essential as well as a high degree of empathy.

It also seems to me that if sex with men is felt as equal to or more important than your relationship with your wife then both of you have some pretty heavy decisions to make.

And it also seems to me that a lot of men tend to live their "bisexuality" as though their heterosexuality and homosexuality exist on two seperate plains such that rather than the Kinsey scale or some such thing there needs to be two seperate scales. And while I have no doubt that this is how it's felt by some, the truth of the matter seems to me to be that this is a false construct and that a third position needs to be taken in which both the hetero and homosexual "selves" are brought into relation with eachother. Until then it feels as though men convince themselves that their homosexual attractions and behaviors have nothing to do with their heterosexual lives, and that's just not the case -- the effects are evident.

Also I just wanted to say that other than what I already wrote abuot bi vs. other explanations: there's of course "addiction to the trauma".

And finally, I ended my last post by saying that neither the explanation that Rob's bi nor that he's excited by men for other reasons doesn't bode well for me. And it doesn't -- nor for any other potentially healthy relationship (with few exceptions, some do make mixed orientation marriages work in relatively healthy ways, but most aren't that great). It doesn't matter to me why he's excited by men and it seems to me that if he's so exicited then he probably shouldn't pursue a relationship with a woman.

The only possible solution for me is that his excitations aren't that great. Period.

AND that he apply what conscience and empathy he has (and he has a lot in every other aspect of his life) to the impact he's had on those he's cared about and may care about in the future. This is really important and really has nothing to do with sexuality -- or love. It just has to do with refusing to put other's life at risk and playing things a tad more fair, and finding enough reward in doing so such that the thrill of not doing so isn't so thrilling. Or so it seems to me.
And it also seems to me that if men still seem thrilling once playing things fair is seems like the way to go, then he probably ought to pursue a man -- or at least a woman who can fully accept that he finds men as thrilling or more so than women.

Katie


Top
#183268 - 09/29/07 12:15 AM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: Kathryn]
mmac Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/21/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PA
Katie,
If he could understand all of his feelings together in formation and then add the realization that he is also projecting those feelings onto others, he probably wouldn't pick this mess to go through. TAKE CARE OF YOU until he reaches a time when he can. Don't wait around for it, TAKE CARE OF YOU. He will find his way, whatever it is. You need to find yours too. it might or might not be the same destination. But, when you get there, you'll be happy you choose for yourself.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
M:)

_________________________
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

I cannot take your steps, but I can walk beside you, if you'll let me.

Top
#183294 - 09/29/07 08:13 AM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: mmac]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
I believe what Kelly is asking is how to talk to his wife about this issue.
We can debate back and forth about heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual feelings, but the bottom line here is how does a husband address this confusion with his wife?
He has mentioned love, committment and honor in his post. He has said nothing about being unfaithful in any way. His acting out has to do with cutting and the tremendous struggle he has faced in this.
What happened to these boys has effected them terribly throughout their lives. I feel so much overwhelm for their pain that I am lacking in the proper words to express this.
My thoughts are simple. If any of us are truly honest and peer within our hearts, is it so difficult to understand having this confusion? We (wives, gf's) feel great intimidation because of this confusion...this identity issue threatens the security of our relationships. If our men decide that they would rather be in a gay relationship, where does that leave us? We will be the lonely soul standing outside the window in the winter while our men are on the inside nestled in by the warmth of a fire. That's what it feels like. The thing is, this issue is not about us...we are part of the guilt surrounding this confusion but it really has nothing to do with us. They were denied going through the normal stages of sexual development to explore their orientation when they were going through puberty.
How do I know this nothing personal? There was a post here many months ago by the partner of a male survivor. He was just as hurt, confused and upset by his lovers acting out with other men. It was a very profound moment for me. The survivor was in a gay relationship and still felt the need to act out, to push the person that loved him most away, to self destruct.
I believe that most of us if we truly dug deep within could see the want for someone to understand us, to completely accept without condition and to love/relate to us on the level of same-ness. I see all of us here feeling as if we are on different teams. Survivors vs. f&f of survivors when the great reality is all of us JUST want to be loved by the person we are with. No walls, no pulling back, no pushing away...we all just want a complete and trusting relationship minus the hurt and fear that we carry.

Those are my thoughts on this and I wish I had the answers for Kelly but I do not. I admire his concern for his wife's feelings and his desire to do the right thing to honor his relationship and her.

Best wishes,
S-n-S

_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

Top
#183299 - 09/29/07 08:34 AM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: sweet-n-sour]
mmac Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/21/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PA
S-n-S,
Kelly has expressed his concern for the partner he loves. As you said, being accepted and loved for who we truely are is everyones wish. We ARE on the same team in this thing called CSA and their pain becomes ours and visa versa. Acceptance is the first step, understanding comes with time and love. We may not always get to where we think we should be (or end up) but the journey reveals our true self.
Kelly, find a safe way to discuss your feelings and the truth and honesty in those feelings will be the window to your soul.
Confusion can clear when we allow ourselves to be true. Hopefully, your partner will be that way to and together you BOTH can decide whats comfortable in YOU OWN RELATIONSHIP. That should be a decision you both make since you have decided to share your lives.
I wish you peace in this journey.
M:)

_________________________
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

I cannot take your steps, but I can walk beside you, if you'll let me.

Top
#183309 - 09/29/07 09:20 AM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: mmac]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


I could be confused but I believe Kelly has acted out with men as well.

I actually really empathize with identity confusion, I really do.

I also really empathize with sexual acting out -- it's basically the only reason I'm still with Rob.

But it's also the case that I empathize with the women involved in these situations.

I also really admire both Kelly and Rob for all the work they've done to deal with this (assuming I'm not confusing Kelly with someone else). And in the case of Rob at least, he's a really good person in most ways -- he really is. And I have no doubt that he'll be able to heal, just as I'm sure Kelly will as well.

Where there's been years of sexual acting out (if that's what it is) then things become a pretty delicate balancing act of empathizing with both the person who's done so as well as the person who's involved with them.

I doubt there are many women who would be overly upset with simple sexuality discussions, even where some level of confusion is expressed. I think what disturbs most women is action, not feelings or fantasies. At least this is the case in my experience.

K.


Top
#183313 - 09/29/07 09:39 AM Re: How to Talk About Sexuality [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Thanks MMC, but things are going pretty well.

And Kelly, Rob's acted out a lot for many years. I haven't ditched him. But it's been very confusing and painful.

Again, I may be confusing you with someone else, but I don't think so. And like you, Rob has said he never stopped long enough to really think things through. Ok - while I don't really have an intuitive notion what this might feel like, I can take it at face value to a certain extent.

But if you talk with your wife now, and I think it's really important that the two of you at least try, then it's pretty important to slow down and contemplate what it's like to be in her shoes.

When Rob first began talking to me about this (after getting caught with a list of his past activities, he never cheated on me) he was just so happy to be talking that he expressed a lot of exuberance. He thought I'd be happy just to be getting the truth. He didn't really stop and think about how all this actually sounded to me.

I'm really glad he's tried so hard to be truthful but for the first many months I didn't feel that he was talking with ME, the woman who loved him and desired him. I felt more like a father confessor or one of his fuck buddies -- but not much like ME, if this makes any sense.

It's a delicate issue.

Rob explains his ability to carry on a double life as a function of splitting -- yeah, that makes sense to me. And I don't blame him at ALL for that. I really don't. And it also seems to me that based on what you've written (if I'm not confusing you with someone else) is that you probably have a similar thing going on, both in regard to sexual acting our/confusion and cutting. And like Rob, you probably can't really decide on your primary sexual preferences until the splits are more or less resolved. And like you wrote some time ago, concentrating on staying connected is probably an important aspect of healing.

In the case of Rob, he feels he's primarily heterosexual. Now it's up to me to trust this. A lot goes into that trust. I hope I can -- really can -- cuz I still really love him.

Take care,
Katie


Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.