Here I am wondering about something. If a survivor is "turned on" by, say, dirty sex w/ a prostitute b/c of his belief that all sex is dirty, can he really change that way of feeling/thinking? Can there really come a day where it no longer appeals to him? If so, how? Can therapy help him see the connections to the original horrible abuse and change it that way? It just seems it would be hard to change something where sexual arousal is concerned. Any answers out there??

doubt it. its in your genes and chemical makeup.

sex being dirty is in your genes? it might have something to do with the fact that sex became perverted by someone ,i think that stuff can be changed ,i was not born thinking sex is dirty and has to hurt ,somebody taught me that .

Don't know that I would agree entirely with the statement that it's in your genes, etc. For instance, referring back to something Kathryn posted some time ago, some people are highly eroticised by shoes or rubber suits or other strange things. I highly doubt such attractions are genetic, but I do believe that genetics and/or chemical influences among other things probably play a substantial role in what turns us on.

Overtime, by continued thought, viewing, even experimentation with a given sexual activity or situation a person can increase that particular erotic trigger over and above others to the point where it is sexually stimulating when it previously had not been a particular turn on.

One answer to your question could be to consult with a reputable sex therapist regarding this issue.

Jarrad --

To anyone who was abused by a parent the suggestion that sexual pathology is "in the genes" is repugnant.

Please be mindful of how your statements here affect other readers.

TW

We interrupt this interesting thread to post the following...

Let's remember that what is triggering to one survivor may in no way be triggering to another. While we try to give users here the courtesy of trigger warnings, it is impossible to predict by what or when someone may be triggered by something we post. The best effort any of us can make is simply to make an honest effort. Understanding and sensitivity is a good habit on the part of all users in this situation.

We now return you to your irregular, unscheduled reading of posts...

WS --

Point well taken. but its more than just a trigger for me. Attraction to prostitutes or thinking sex is dirty may well have a chemical makeup but it is quite definitely not "in the genes."

TW

Post deleted by ttoon

good lord you all are so fucking sensitive.
i stand by what i say. i did not learn to like boys. i did not learn to like both being a top and being a bottom. i didnt learn that i get turned on more when someone kisses my collarbones than sucking me off. that all is in my genes and chemical makeup. could i change liking boys or being turned on when someone kisses me in a certain place? no. you cant change it. can you control it? proabbly. but then eventually you will bust and "act out" and all that bullshit. so i stand by my answer. no you cant.

what about "changing" into yourself? abuse had me so screwed up i "enjoyed" and was "turned on" by a lot of things. over time and through therapy, and starting to remember the things that STARTED the whole mess - what used to be "me" isn't me anymore.

so i say yes, of course you can change. we can argue whether or not someone was actually "meant" to be a certain way i suppose, but why? isn't it acceptable that some people can and other's can't? or some do and others don't?

or are we so full of ourselves it has to be just like we are or it's invalid????

m

and since when is being sensitive BAD?

IF a survivor can learn to have sex w/ real intimacy and love, as opposed to plain "dirty" sex, I wonder if he would then prefer the sex/intimacy/love, because he is missing that now. Maybe sex is "just sex" until you learn to put sex and love together, then it changes everything??

Esp. if they figured out *why* they like the "dirty" secretive sex....i.e. it was dirty and secretive in their abuse...and once they make that connection, if they ever do, it seems like they would not want it as much anymore. Just my own thoughts as the spouse of a survivor...???

Interesting thread and, no, this is not a delicate tea party but I hope we can still discuss this.

Ok... nature vs nuture... my thought is that the majority of our sex drive is genetic, but I think our environment, influences, upbringing and all that plays a role as well... my opinion is a much smaller role, but it can't be discounted.

Jarrad, you are a sweet talker! I think you should cut all the fluff and just say what you mean, ok? You don't need to hold back with us! Lol!!!

Dan

one's nature can change

i'll say it again cause i guess you all didnt hear me the first time. you might be able to contol what you like. but you still like it. for example.. your beau can like dirty sex. your beau can go to therapy and try to be cured of liking dirty sex. therapist will give your beau suggestions. beau learns to like normal sex. beau still likes dirty sex. beau just learns that its better if he doesnt act on it. beau will always like dirty sex.

I think the correct answer to the OP is: it depends.

Some people are just born with certain desires, and some people acquire those desires through life's experiences. Either way, some people can change and some people can't.

Bryan

once you like it you will always like it?
no way.
said it before, say it again - maybe true for some, but not all

I think we heared you, Jarrad, we just disagreed.... crime?

Just kidding.. but if you need to yell, use all caps!!!!

interesting thread!

Dan

i always thought the only interesting thread was the loose one you pull and it unravels everything ....

disagree with me? who would do such a thing

***waves from across the room***

.

The original poster was talking about sex feeling "dirty" and seeking out situations in which it feels "dirty" all over again. Unless I missed something she wasn't talking about boys or girls or tops or bottoms or gay or straight.

we are born pure ,as close to god as your ever gonna get ,the minute you take that first breath ,and open your eyes ,the world and the people around you start shaping who you will be ,if a baby was born and kept in total isolation for say 20 years do you think he would walk out and say by the way im gay?

I think that since people have many different things that are turn ons one could change or at least develop new turn ons that are just as strong as old ones if they where exposed to other things and like them.

I know that some of the things that turned me on big time years ago are still there but new stronger turn ons have developed now. But I had to be exposed to them for a while and like them.

But is this about turn ons or about sexual intimacy? IF this is the problem that they feel any and all sex is dirty all of the time and can not see that sex can be wonderful and meaningful then that is another issue.

But still something that can be changed if they really want to and have the help and support to do so. A big help I think would be to limit things that project dirty sex and introduce things that may stimulate more intimacy based sex. For instance if one was watching porn most porn is more about dirty sex that is what sells. But watching soft porn that is more like a>

actually Adam their is alot of research now that pretty well has proven we are influenced by people while we are still developing before birth... so the idea that you are pure as a new born dosnt really hold up... and i hate to say it but the idea that as soon as we are born it is all down hill from their is pretty scary to me.

Anyways to answer the questions first brought up in the post. I think some one can change from acting out and having "dirty" sex to having a healthy loving relationship with another person. But i think the person must truly want to change and understand the negative effects of the behavior they were taking part in

Thats my thoughts on the subject

,Chris

Thanks, all of you, for your deep insights. It's ok if my question spurred into other avenues; it makes it more interesting.

Selene, I love the sentence that said that sex (or acting out, reenacting the abuse) as the result of abuse is "trauma turned into orgasm." That is a profound statement.

i was talking about liking boys in terms of what i like sexually. so im saying that me liking boys is the same as liking dirty sex. not that they are the same. and selene, yes in another post i mentioned how i like rougher sex and may not have naturally liked that. the post is about changing it tho right? so if i didnt want to have "rough sex" anymore i cant change that. that becomes apart of me too. so changing that doesnt seem possible to me. even with therapy or whatever. i will always be turned on that way.

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here:

You may want to consider what it really is about "dirty sex" that turns you on. Is it the prostitutes? Or the sexual act(s) it/themselves? Is it the "taboo" nature of having "dirty" sex with people who have sex in exchange for money? There are a lot of minute things within the scenario itself that really might be the "turn on" rather than the entire situation itself.

Taboo sex is a turn on for a lot (and I mean A LOT) of people. "Dirty" sex is a turn on for a lot of people (how many times have you heard of someone who "talks dirty" during sex?)

If you're feeling conflicted about what you like versus what you think is acceptable sexual behavior, I'd first like to say that I don't see any problem, in any situation (barring death, of course) where two consenting adults (or more, whatever floats your boat) engage in sexual activities. That aside, if it really does bother you, try to figure out exactly what it is, on the micro side, about "dirty sex" that you like. Once you've figured that out, remove whatever parts of the equation you don't like (I'm assuming the prostitutes bit) and start searching for someone who has the same turn-ons that you do (trust me, they're out there...)

And on the subject of what we're born with and what we're conditioned to like/dislike: It's generally a combination of the two. Our genetic coding is reinforced or discouraged by our personal experiences. We may be born with an innate fear of, say, lions. But if you grow up in a house of lion-tamers, that instinctual fear is going to be discouraged over time.

People are born one way or another. But our experiences do the fine tuning. Jarrad, you were born gay. Were you born with a love of rough sex? Perhaps. But it's more than likely that your early experiences changed the actual shape and function of the pleasure centers in your brain to trigger more often during specific sexual activities. Linking an activity to pleasure isn't that difficult if you can convince yourself (or actually, honestly do) that you like it. There's nothing wrong with that, but not everything about your personality or personal tastes is coded into your gene sequences.

right
even Pavlov taught his dogs to salivate at the ringing of a bell

M

Absolutely fascinating discussion.

I think you probably did the best job of answering your question Brokenhearted when you posted the following


That is it in a nutshell in my opinion.

Jarrad, personally I think you are correct when you say that you will probably always like the kind of sex that has turned you on in the past. I certainly can't disagree with that, but like BH said, "dirty sex" can certainly loose it's first place ranking in what a person prefers to have when they discover sex of any kind combined with intimacy and committed love.

John

okay john, you and BH said its about love then. that once you make that connection between love and sex then they wont dirty sex.

i think thats bull. i equate sex as love. which is dangerous. is that not the same thing as what BH said? "IF a survivor can learn to have sex w/ real intimacy and love, as opposed to plain "dirty" sex, I wonder if he would then prefer the sex/intimacy/love, because he is missing that now" sex is not love. it might be a part of love, but it defintely not the whole thing. also, i think you all are under the assumption that the guy WANTS the love part. why can't he just be happy getting off? that is essentially the only function of sex on a basic level... to get off. humans bring in all the other bullshit meanings like love and feelings and labels.

so im gonna say, if you think that once he "finds love in sex" then i wouldn't think that he would automatically stop having "dirty sex." maybe the fucking guy just wants to get off without the hassle.

Jarrad, I didn't say that. Go back and read it again. I very specifically agreed with you that if a person is attracted to dirty sex he/she will probably always be attracted to it in some way.

I took it a step further and said I have found that to be true in my own life. Why would I want the dirty sex from the past when what I currently have with my wife is so very much better than the other? The sex we have is only a part of the greater companionship and commitment of our relationship, but it is a huge part of it for both of us. Further we couldn't have it without having the committed, caring intimacy and relationship first.

John

john, yeah i know what you said. and what i said, is that not all guys want the love thing attached to it because they just want to get off. not questions asked. so maybe the whole "relationship" thing worked for you and sex is better with your wife. but i dont think that is the case for all guys. some guys get bored of sex with the same person. over and over and over.

Jarrad,

Yeah, now we're understanding each other. I can accept and understand where you're coming from on that. Have definitely been there myself.

John

Hey guys, agree with both of you. I'm just tired of getting off, bored with it. I want some love attached to it.

Mike

This thread is so, so interesting. Jarrad you make some really good points. I actually agree that survivors shouldn't be doomed to a life of vanilla sex and thinking anything outside a loving intimate expression of the missionary position is necessarily pathologic. i've enjoyed a lot of casual sex that i feel just fine about. personally i think believing all sex has to be in committed, monogamous relationships would be letting the abuse win, but at the same time, please try to understand that straight men who were abused have many of the same, but many different issues too. having same-sex experiences forced on you is just simply confusing.

i actually agree that sexual orientation is largely predetermined, in the genes, etc. though in my experience, where i like or dont like to be touched and that sort of thing is largely based on experience.

and without pissing anyone off - it can be really fun for sex to feel dirty.

but my basic point remains -- if someone feels like sex is dirty and seeks out prostitutes to enact that, *and* feels uncomfortable about it, that seems pretty compulsive. like it might have less to do with arousal than it does with flawed thinking and ideas.

so my reaction to sexuality being "in the genes" was *not* about orientation -- we seem to agree on that. my reaction was to the idea that acts which are probably more about violence and power, etc rather than "sexual" in nature, ie pedophilia, are "in the genes".

thats all. peace, tw