Newest Members
jahfree, Daryl X., tryintothrive, BCtejas, JHNebraska
12494 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
mrwhiskers (25), SouthernLaw (41), TerryT (61)
Who's Online
4 registered (Obi, Scott1962, Dude, Garf), 25 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12494 Members
74 Forums
64160 Topics
447744 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#177389 - 08/31/07 11:42 AM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: melliferal]
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
There isn't much I can add, exept for maybe this; abusers somehow LEARN to be experts at the two skills I think are most essential in being abusers, namely rationalization and manipulation.

Rationalization - the ability to explain away anything, anything you do, no matter how wrong you KNOW it might be.

Manipulation - the ability to make others do what you want them to do, no matter how wrong you BOTH know it is, by playing on their needs.

In a sense, these people are very good at giving us what we want. Which is why some of the abuse feels good and the emotions we get from it feel good. Someone has already said sex feels good and anything involving the sex organs, unless involving torture, feels good. They know this, and they use it to get us to believe it's all right. After all, if we didn't want it, we'd not respond the way we did, would we?

Insidious, isn't it? How they make US feel it's OUR fault. It all comes down to how they're able to make themselves believe it isn't wrong, and that we like it. They believe it, so they can do it. They make US believe it, so we go along.

Again, its been said before, but we all need to hear it repeatedly. There was nothing wrong with you. It wasn't your fault. Even if you think you liked it - Hell, even if you BELIEVE you liked it - you were a child and they manipulated you into doing something wrong. Liking the feelings, physical and emotional, is probably the ONLY thing about the whole mess that was "normal." The predetor's greatest tool.

I hope this helps.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

Top
#177488 - 08/31/07 08:18 PM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: melliferal]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal,

I can relate to what you're saying. My version of what you are feeling now was looking back and remembering that my body listened to him and not to me. Always. I could easily see that back then I was being used, scared, threatened, and manipulated. I could even get the idea - an absolute truth, by the way - that it can never be the kid's fault. BUT still, I felt so ashamed and guilty for what happened. And it wasn't just "liking" the physical feelings: I showed up whenever he wanted, I got in his car, I went upstairs on my own to get ready, the whole thing. How could I not be guilty? I had a lot to be ashamed of.

You say you were a complete idiot for falling for what they were doing. This was your mistake, and on top of that you liked it. This makes everything your fault.

Melliferal, you were 10 years old! Like all young boys you would have been curious, and what can make a kid happier than to have fun in such a way that he fits in with the other kids and gains approval from the grownups all at the same time. I remember your survivor story. At first you were grossed out by the video in the VCR, but then you and the other kids tried doing those things. It was a laugh, it felt good, and then on top of everything else the grownups show up, approve and encourage what's going on, and shower you with affection and attention.

That's a classic example of grooming and manipulation, bro, and I think just about any kid in your situation would fall for that. You weren't an idiot and there's no need for you to take an adult's crime (how did that video get left in the VCR?) and see it as your mistake.

I think you would probably agree with me so far. The question is something deeper: If all this is true, why can't you shake these feelings of guilt. You think you should have known better.

I remember your survivor story. Some time later on you heard about child abuse and came to realize what had happened to you. And I remember how you described your feelings at this discovery: It all hit you like a ton of bricks.

Melliferal, when this happens to a boy he doesn't just grow out of it or "get over it". The reason for that is that sexual abuse isn't just a physical act; it attacks how we feel about ourselves, our place in the world, and how we can relate to others. We learn a host of false lessons about ourselves, and unless we get help to deal with all the wrong ideas we have, we just carry them on into adulthood.

That "little voice" telling you this was all your fault because you "liked it" - that's one of those old tapes still playing in your head. Children are prone to blame bad things on themselves anyway, especially if what happened had left them with bad feelings about themselves. And in your case, there's also the fact that your memories of the adults are so positive. Unconsciously you probably want to hang on to them as good people, but if you aren't to blame, then they are! And THAT means they were predators and not cool adults after all. For the little guy within you, that's a terrible possibility to contemplate.

You say you should have known better, but my reply to that is this: How should you have known better at the age of 10? Getting a kid to go along with abuse means breaking down his taboos about private touching and nakedness - that is, eroding the boundaries that even a young boy will have. And you DID have such boundaries; that's why you said "Ewwww" when you saw the porn video in the VCR. But you were with kids you liked and felt comfortable with, and on top of that here come the adults with an absolutely positive reinforcement for what was happening.

What did you know about sex at the age of 10? What resources did you have to make an informed choice? What information did you have about what would be good or bad for you in the long term? What experiences could you draw on to help you decide? I bet the answers to all these questions will be one word: NOTHING! In that situation there were no obstacles in the way of doing something that seemed to be fun and cool. To me that doesn't ring of "guilt", it rings of "child".

Bro, my heart goes out to you when I read your comments on how difficult this is. You're so right. You're not doomed to carry this crap around on your heart for the rest of your life, no. But it has been there for a LONG time, and getting rid of it is a complicated and difficult process. Don't try to do this on your own.

I know you're seeing a counselor, and that's great. But talk to us here as well, and let the others support you and show you that you aren't alone and that there are ways forward. I remember the first time I posted about my own issues - I was so scared! But once we give ourselves a chance and begin to get things out into the open, they gradually lose their power to harm us.

Sometimes we can admit the truth of an idea intellectually and rationally, but emotionally we still hold on to the old fears we carry from boyhood. That's what you're doing now. I know what you mean when you say you wish you had someone to give you a hug and tell you this wasn't your fault. But look at this thread! You have a crowd of guys gathering around you to say you're okay and not to blame at all - not for any of it.

Right there is a good place to start. Hang in there and keep talking about things. You're on the right track! \:\)

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#177496 - 08/31/07 08:28 PM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: melliferal]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
17 years or 33 years since the abuse...it all seems too fresh and too recent for us when guilt and shame are involved. My shame and guilt make me want to scream.

If only I had a voice about all this....I would in fact scream. Instead, some of us just have nightmares and adulthood ramifications.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

Top
#177510 - 08/31/07 09:02 PM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: Still]
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I think something that has struck me recently, is my self perception. I work with young children, and have several degrees in child development - 20 years of experience and 2 kids of my own. If anyone knows about kids its me... but that's THOSE kids.

I have always been me. My maturation has been slow and steady and imperceptable to me.... I'm just "Dan". So I have a huge problem in blaming myself for not knowing better.. For not saying no... for not telling... for not disclosing right after.... But that's the Adult Dan looking back, with all my knowledge and experience. I needed to step out and remember who i must haved been at age 6 when it started;.... at 8... at 11.. and at 14 when it ended. I was LITTLE. I was naive. I was curious. I was stimulated. I felt loved and special. I had attention. I had orgasms for the first time. I couldn't have known - I needed to get out of my adult head and remember what I was like... and I was YOUNG. Too young to know what the consequences of those sessions would be on my entire life.

Sad and angry? that I am... guilty ?- nope!

Dan

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

Top
#177852 - 09/02/07 07:03 PM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: dannym]
SECfanMIKE Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 172
Loc: South Carolina
Hey there WILD THING!!!!!!

I know EXCATLY what you mean about it feeling good, satisfying emotionally, and being something that you actually really wanted at the time. My Dad had hated me from my early childhood until the day of my wedding (because I wasn't the athlete he had wanted me to be). My mother really never wanted to have children; my little brother and me would have literally starved or died of neglect if my Dad's loving mother hadn't cared for us until we were toddlers. I DESPERATELY craved the kind of attention, affection and tenderness that my molester (my grand-uncle) lavished on me. I despised him for raping me and forcing me to perform on him - but I was SO fulfilled by the "love" I'd never received from anyone else other than my Grammy.

=================================================================

For each of us here at MALE SURVIVOR, our stories may be very different, but -- PRAISE GOD! -- His story is always the same!!Here's a condensed view of where I'm coming from for folks I haven't met yet. In 2nd grade, my parents separated. My mother took my brother & me to live near her parents in Washington, DC. During that time, my mother's uncle molested me for about 1 1/2 years. My mother knowingly allowed this abuse to go on because she was afraid that if she confronted him she might be cut off from her family's money. My grand-uncle played on my deep needs for acceptance & affection; very emotionally intimate.

My grand-uncle used my deep need for affection to manipulate me. I vividly remember times getting out of the shower with him & laying on his white tiger rug or bed. He performed oral sex on me, sodomized me, forced me to perform oral sex on him. He may have forced my younger brother & me to engage each other sexually (a but fuzzy on that). He was never violent. Recognizing my emotional vulnerability, he was emotionally intimate: cuddled me, held me, snuggled me, lavished me with affection.

From the time my mother sent my brother and me back to live with my Dad -- because she said that I was "...turning into a queer..." -- (an 8 year old!); my Dad and brother were extremely cruel, verbally and physically abusive. From the time my younger brother Chris and I were toddlers, my Dad had always hated me because I wasn't the tall, aggressive, athletic son that my younger brother was. After returning from 1 1/2 years of being molested while in Washington, DC - my Dad hated me more than ever and had no idea what I had gone through, much less what to do with me. He AND my younger brother would sit at the dinner table and call me "...you goddam faggot...". My Dad would frequently say; "All those damn queers should be rounded up, taken to a public square and shot!"

Predictably, at this point I was unsure about who I was; and I had been suddenly taken away from the only affection I had ever known. As I began to make friends in my new neighborhood and school; without even understanding what I was looking for, I began seeking that acceptance and affection from other boys my age, and a few who were several years older. None of this searching ever lead to sexual encounters; but as a 9 year old my best friend Owen and I became extremely close -- often going to his house after school (and if his mother ad sister weren't home) we progressed to embracing one another, kissing, undressing each other (we had to get out of our Catholic school uniforms, anyway), and even exploring each other's bodies with our hands. I felt so loved and so fulfilled with Owen...and then had to face the horrors of going home to my Dad for more verbal & physical abuse. It was very confusing.

Having that kind of satisfying physical and emotional intimacy with one of my peers stopped at the end of 5th grade when my Dad remarried and moved us across town. I still never consciously understood why I was so attracted to other boys...whether it was at SCOUT camp, in school, or neighborhood peers. I used to get the tar beat out of me almost everyday, because it seemed that other guys had a much better idea than I did of why I might be staring at them in a longing way.

=================================================================
Even up to my teens, I was still so starved for affection...it's like the old Kenny Rogers song about "...looking for love in all the wrong places, looking for love in too many faces...".

I hope this helps some!


Your freind -Mike ;-)

_________________________
"...for God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him..."

"...rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep..."

"...for the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost..."

Top
#177941 - 09/03/07 01:30 AM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: melliferal]
copenbay Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 127
Hi,

I know what it feels like to be guilty about 'liking it'. Anyone who's been used by someone, especially after being tricked,can relate. Though my early abusers didn't give me too much to like, the response (whenever it does hit) is hard to ignore. Part of the problem is that the abusers were 'friends', and a bad relationship seemed better than none at the time. Please don't kick yourself over feeling things still 15 years later. It's been well over 30 years since I was first abused, and I still have feelings that I wish I didn't have (sometimes that applies to any sexual feeling at all). I feel like much more of an idiot, since after childhood abuse I was conned into more as a young adult.


Top
#177944 - 09/03/07 01:39 AM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: copenbay]
copenbay Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 127
Hi,

I wasn't clear the last time: the first time I was abused, I was close to age 3 (adult/adults at church,not sure how many times). Then it was two neighbor boys for eight months beginning at 4 and a half. And later, after I moved out, a woman mistreated me (and that's the kindest way to put it). Unfortunately, I had considered all those people 'friends' at some time, and have always been disgusted about having sexual response (except for masturbation). But I, too, must remind myself I had no say in what happened as a little boy, so guilt really doesn't belong to me. Yes, that's sometimes hard work, since I want to blame myself. See what I mean? You can't blame yourself for trusting someone older, or even feeling something you didn't ask to feel. Again, I'm talking to myself, too.


Top
#179939 - 09/12/07 08:34 PM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: copenbay]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I think it must've been a coping mechanism. I believed fully that people who are your best friends really care about you and wouldn't do anything harmful to you. When the abuse started, I understood it wasn't right, which led to a dilemma - if I was being harmed, then these people couldn't be my friends. It was something that I call cognitive dissonance. The way I solved my cognitive dissonance was giving my abusers the benefit of the doubt - they were my friends after all; thus, I decided that what they were doing to me (the abuse) could not have been harmful after all. A simple kiddish decision.

Perhaps I can work on this new train of thought, and it might help me against this guilt.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

Top
#179981 - 09/13/07 08:24 AM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: melliferal]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
not sure if this will help but my abuser convinced me that it was my fault ,that something about me made him do those things ,the way he put it was you bring the animal out in people. then he would beat me for making him do bad things ,its how they justify it to themselves i guess

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#179982 - 09/13/07 08:35 AM Re: Guilt over "liking it" [Re: shadowkid]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
That could be it. The perps used to describe me and my friends with words like "beautiful", which didn't make sense to me back then because "beautiful" wasn't a word you used to describe boys - but whatever, right? So I figured it had something to do with my image.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

Top
Page 2 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.