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#175491 - 08/24/07 01:02 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Lazarus,

Quote:
But when simple minded people chastize me for my lifestyle 'choice' and say that I should live by their rules

You make my point. What business is it of theirs what anyone is, and I can't blame you at all for feeling the need to take exception. It's just bizarre why some folk feel the need to point out the "evil" in other peoples lives in order to hide their own.

They fail to follow the counsel in the>
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#175495 - 08/24/07 01:16 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Well, guys, it's important to realize that our country, and most of the world, is filled with religious fanatics ... that go far out of their way to hurt others, emotionally and sometimes physically -- in some twisted way to prove they are holy.

Of course, they violate the bible when they do this. But they don't read that part of the bible.

They make their own rules, and get large groupings of people to follow those rules.

Why anyone should care about someone else's sexual orientation is beyond me.

But take examples like the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, and how he made a career out of going after gays.

A vocal and hateful example, who fortunately only has a small following of people is Fred Phelps (godhatesfags dot com is his site I think -- don't go there, it will MAKE YOU SICK)

He's almost as bad as the taliban.


And a lot of money.

By the way, in my bible I couldn't find any evidence that gayness was a sin. It's just not in there.
Jesus never talked about homosexuality, at all.

There were a few>


Edited by gay30something (08/24/07 01:22 AM)
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gay30something

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#175660 - 08/25/07 01:16 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Gentlemen,

I know I've contributed some to this thread, and the tone it has taken. I agree that some who call themselves Christian are probably anything but. I also know that myself and any number of our brothers here on the site consider ourselves to be Christian and would NEVER put down any brother here because of their orientation.

Let's try to keep some balance here and not paint everyone with the same brush. It can feel pretty hurtful being painted as a Christian bigot along side those who claim to be Christian but really are bigots.

The fact of the matter is that there are extremists of every persuasion, class, and dogma who do all of society an evil turn by their own form of bigotry against whatever group it's popular for them to hate. It's unfortunate, but true.

Bottom line, this site is open to, and should be a place of safety for men (and women) of all walks of life, religion, social strata, and sexual orientation, who want to find healing for the terrible things that have happened to them or their loved ones.

John




_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#175699 - 08/25/07 10:39 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
John,

I wanted to clarify why I believe Christianity is a VERY important point here...

At least with my post, I think I've made clear who I'm talking about, Right Wing Fundamentalist Christians. That's obviously not you, or anyone else who has respect and understanding for all types of people.

I'm not talking about the loving Jimmy Carter type Christians.

Please don't be offended by the truth, that there is a faction amongst Christianity, that takes a hard Right Wing slant, and uses homosexuals as bigotry - bate to get more members. It's the plain truth. Heck, it's all over TV.

These people are about as right wing, in some cases as the Taliban in Afhganistan. That comparison was made by Jimmy Carter himself. He recently said that there are people who would like a Christian taliban to run our country. He said that on TV.

So this does affect us. I think the larger political-religious-sociology and politics of society do have a major impact on victims of sexual abuse, including male victims.

The more hard right wing a society is, the less intelligent the response to sexual victimization.

If you are a good Christian, who loves everyone, and doesn't denegrate others, then you aren't in that group.

But Taliban - like hard Right Wing bigots do exist within some factions of christianity -- and they hurt homosexuals who have done nothing to them.

They also distort the pedphile/child abuse problem, and twist it around to try to blame it on homosexuals....
This of course is scientifically and historically incorrect, but they do it anyway.
It also let's the real abusers off the hook.

Take for example the Catholics, much effort has gone into blaming the sex abuse scandal and coverups on homosexual orientation priests.
Yet again, scapegoating. Ignoring any higher powers in their organization who covered up, moved rapist priests around, etc.

Never mind all those girl victims, they are invisible, because it doesn't help their white washing.

Then, when people start to get angry, they start a witch hunt for priests who have ever had homosexual orientation in their lives.

Nope, don't go after child rapists, go after homosexuals instead.
Don't discuss the problems of celibacy, go after homosexuals instead.
Don't discuss the sado-maschicistic tendancies of church dogma, as brought out in "perversion of power" by Mary Gail Frawley...
just blame homosexuals.
Don't make any binding changes, or let outsiders view the secret files that would reveal other child rapists who are still in positions of authority....blame homosexuals instead.



So, I think it is very very important that in a gay abuse forum, we not ignore the fact that there are right wing factions of many major religions, that use gays as bate for scapegoating, prejudice, bigotry and fear mongering.

And it is equally important that we realize that the only ones in the USA who have intentions of taking over our society are the fundamentalist Christians. They weild a lot of power, and in recent years, it has been used very irresponsibly.

Right wing Christians are the ones behind 99.9% of the prejudice gays experience in the USA, no doubt about it. It's not right wing muslims, because they aren't in positions of power here.

So, this falls into the nature v. nurture discussion and the wider discussion of male survivors of sex abuse.

Personally, in my own life, I'm sure I wouldn't have suffered abuse via a religion on this level if my parents had sent me somewhere that wasn't so heirarchial and right wing.
I'm sure abuse is far less common among the more open minded Christian sects.
Sunshine and openness exposes problems and deals with them. Right wing secrecy is what perpetuates abuse.

But this is only in reference to those hard right wing christian sects and religions that actively persecute homosexuals, while at the same time burying the truth about the predators in their heirarcy.

These are in many cases the same sects that at one point or another passed around petitions against gay marriage, or in other cases demonized and ostracized gays from their churches.

These are the right wingers who use gays as pawns in a chess game. This is very real for us gay people.

Again, Christians who follow, truly follow, what Jesus taught, are not doing these things. They respect gays as human beings and they realize that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, not once in the Gospel. They recognize that he didn't see it as an issue.

This ties in to to the nature v. nurture issue, because hard right wing religions many times try to say we "choose" to be homosexual, and hence forth should be punished. Some of them actually preach that homosexuals should be put to death...right from their pulpits. Right here in the USA.

Others acknowledge that homosexuality may be natural, i.e. genetic, but that somehow we must not think about or act on our desires and live celibate lives -- constantly chastising other homosexuals who don't follow this dogma.

So, it is all linked together, and no it doesn't have to do with all Christians, just those who are part of right wing bigoted sects.

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from. But my views are all over TV and newspapers. Maybe not on CNN, but certainly on shows that take these issues in depth, such as Religion and Ethics on PBS and other shows.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I only seek to express my opinions, which I believe are based in truth.

I am personally very much comforted by the presence of true Christians, loving Christians in this forum, and in my life.
Some of the nicest gay people I know happen to be Christians, and are very active in their churches.

Christianity is supposed to be about love, and to the extent that I encounter those Christians who love their neighbors, it makes my world a better place.

So, thank you to those on this forum who are Christian and bring their moderate views here - and help us all in our recovery from sex abuse.




Edited by gay30something (08/25/07 11:00 AM)
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#175765 - 08/25/07 03:13 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
g30s,

I hope you didn't mistake me. My last post was just me slipping into the moderator role for a moment in an attempt to keep this thread from declining into something potentially hurtful. I have not been offended by any comments here but was suddenly struck by the specter of where this thread could potentially go and how quickly it could do it. It's been known to happen in the past and I simply wanted to try and prevent that. I think further I was a tad concerned that my comments earlier in the thread could possibly be taken by some as license to open up with both barrels.

I thank you for your honesty and your well thought out opinions. I think we're pretty close to agreement on much of it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#175786 - 08/25/07 05:09 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Thanks for the clarifications.

This is a very interesting forum, filled with a lot of interesting insight.

_________________________
gay30something

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#175946 - 08/26/07 07:54 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
hayden502 Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
I'm a bit offended by this posting. You put the word feel into quotations ("feel") as if to say that a boy doesn't really feel like a girl or a girl doesn't really feel like a boy. You make this statement but not once do you mention anything about transsexuality. When a boy feels like a little girl, that has NOTHING to do with nuture. Sorry, that's not true. It's completely nature. A boy feels like a girl because he really is a girl trapped in a boy's body. What transgendered research has generally agreed on is that it has nothing to do with the child, it has to do with the mother. When the mother is in her first trimester during pregnancy, a trauma(environmental or physical) occurs causing the mother's horomone balance to plunge into chaos. Thus, this causes the baby's brain and genitals to mis-match and when the baby is born WHAM out comes a boy with a girl's brain. Very simple when you think about it. Transsexuala know they are boys trapped in girls body's or vice versa before the age of four. According to Erik Erikson's stages of social development, a child registers his/her own gender before the age of 5. Most people who feel "gay" don't tend to have those feelings to they're at least 8 or 9 years old. At 5 years old it's impossible to identify your sexual orientation, but not impossible to identify your gender.

I don't mean to bash your theory or opinions, but what I've stated above is factual. I'm sick and tired of people affiliating gay with transsexuality. One has nothing to do with the other. I have friends who are both gay and trannsexual and there is absolutely no similarities between any of them. Gay is a male that is exclusively attracted to other males. Transsexual is a male or FEMALE that is born in the wrong body. The defenition alone doesn't reveal that their is a corolation between gay or transsexual.

People can disagree or theorize this all they want, but this is based on research and fact, not opinion.

Kyle.


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#175960 - 08/26/07 08:36 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: hayden502]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Hayden, I'm assuming you are referring to something I said, since your post is marked [Re: Lazarus]. If that is the case, you have seriously mistaken me because I couldn't agree with you more. If my words did not convey this, I am sorry.

I put the word 'feel' in apostrophes because I don't know how to italisize in this format. I did NOT mean to imply that these feelings weren't real or accurate. I have always felt that transsexuality is also a result of nature. I know quite a few transsexuals and there is no question in my mind about that. I also know many more homosexuals, and while 90% of them are gay by nature, the others actually do choose this lifestyle because of some event that caused them to dislike women. But I've never known this to be true with transsexuals.

The only thing that homosexuality and transsexuality have in common is that they are both aspects of human sexuality and therefore predisposed by biology.

Hope this clears things up.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#175968 - 08/26/07 09:19 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
hayden502 Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
Lazarus,

I apologize for the explosive reply. To be honest, my wife's best friend is a transsexual and whenever I read or hear anything that even slightly compares gay to transsexual I react. It's something that I need to work on. I guess it's not my job to educate the world. Either people get it or they don't.

I also understand why you put "feel" into quotation. After you've explained it, it makes a bit more sense now.

It's also nice to see that you're not ignorant towards transsexuals like most of the people in this fucked up world are.

*smiles* Thanks Lazarus,
Kyle.


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#176007 - 08/26/07 01:24 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: hayden502]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Hi:

I think it's also important that we not forget that a person who is transexual (having gone through an sex change operation) and Transgender COULD also be homosexual or lesbian.

But the two are not intertwined.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different things.

But people get confused, sometimes intentionally though.
I had relatives when I was coming out as gay, ask me if I was going to have a sex change operation.

They knew what they were saying was incorrect, they were just bigots.

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gay30something

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