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#174984 - 08/22/07 11:55 AM feeling helpless
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
right so I cant help but to think back and feel like there must have been something I could have done. maybe not to stop it entirely but make it easier? maybe easier isn't the right word, i dont have the right word for it but there must have been something I could have said or done differently. people i encounter now are so scared, helpless, sometimes hurt sometimes angry and i know exactly what to say and do to steer them in a different direction but back then i couldnt think of not one damn thing to do to avoid any of the things that happened. because i'm older now? because i think about things and see things different? or was i just weak back then? or maybe i couldnt stop it because i did in fact deserve it? maybe my father was right about everything, maybe i was just too stupid and selfish to appreciate the things he was trying to teach me? i dont know. that doesnt sound right to me but it sure as hell feels that way. just thinking out loud here.

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#174989 - 08/22/07 12:08 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Jesse,

I'm sure it feels that way, but I'm sure that's not right. NO ONE is so stupid they need taught through abuse. No one. Not even you - not even me.

Yes, you were younger then. And yes - I believe you see things a LOT clearer now because of that awful filter of your past. And if you were "weak" back then - it was because of your age and who you were up against. It's taken me a LONG time to realize my father was DEAD WRONG. And I still fight that from time to time.

At the risk of being repetitive - you were NEVER too stupid or selfish. Again - NO ONE is so stupid they can only be taught through abuse. No. The abuse was something done TO you - and NEVER something you deserved.

M

PS - Thanx for "just thinking out loud".


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#175014 - 08/22/07 01:38 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: MarkK]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
thanks mark, he had a way of making it seem like it was all me and everything he did was someone justified

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175021 - 08/22/07 02:07 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
Those who abuse children are master manipulators. They know how to manipulate children and it's a tool that seldom fails. They do it in a way to make us feel that it was all our fault. This feeling stays with many of us for our entire lives.

Back in 2001, when I confronted the man who abused me as a young boy, the last 30 seconds of the conversation went like this:

Quote:
I then asked him if he had anything that he wanted to say to me. He looked me in the eye and said, “I’m sorry”. I snapped at him in an angry and sarcastic tone “what are you sorry for”? Then he said it… “I’m sorry. I manipulated you and I took advantage of you”. I closed my eyes for about 10 seconds. When I opened them up, I could feel the tears running down my face. It was at that moment that I finally realized that it was not my fault. He manipulated me and I was not to blame. I couldn’t have asked for a more perfect answer. I was finally able to forgive myself.


Jesse, he was manipulating you! It was NEVER your fault!

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#175024 - 08/22/07 02:19 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: Brian]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
how-many times----does one have to hear---------------------its not your fault------before it sinks in??????????????


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#175025 - 08/22/07 02:22 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: Brian]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Brian
Jesse, he was manipulating you! It was NEVER your fault!

Brian


thanks for sharing that story, im just not there yet, wish i could believe that right now but i cant, been blaming myself for everything that happened for so long, hard to start thinking differently

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175029 - 08/22/07 02:25 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: sabata]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: sabata
how-many times----does one have to hear---------------------its not your fault------before it sinks in??????????????



good question, i heard "this is all your fault" about a million times growing up so i suppose i'll have to hear "it's not your fault" a million and one times before it'll sink in.

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175030 - 08/22/07 02:28 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
I know that you're not there yet but I'm sure you will get there someday!

When I wrote that post 6 years ago, I actually believed that I understood and accepted that it wasn't my fault. Unfortunately, it took another 3 years until I actually did! This is a long process for some of us but it well worth the effort!

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#175032 - 08/22/07 02:32 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: Brian]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
right, i hate to sound so negative but most of the time im really not sure if any of this is worth the effort.

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175035 - 08/22/07 02:52 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: Brian]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Jesse,

Just adding to the good ideas you have already received: It's not just a matter that you were so young back then. There's also the fact that you were facing a terrible challenge - sexual abuse has a catastrophic effect on a boy that he absolutely cannot handle. Not emotionally, not physically, and of course not sexually. In his total confusion he is desperate for answers and will believe almost anything that's said to him. Do you remember any of these lines?

It was all your idea.
You liked it./You got hard./You came.
You didn't really mean no./You didn't leave./You didn't have to come back.
I only did what you wanted.
This is our special time.
This is our secret.
All the boys are doing this.
It was for us.
You were this special to me.
You never told.

It's all bullshit Jesse, and once you realize this you will be able to believe that none of it was your fault.

So why isn't this happening yet? Several reasons. First of all, the idea that it was your fault is something abuse stuck in your head while things were happening, and after the abuse ended that idea just continues in a boy, even as he grows up and becomes a man. These old ideas are just so damn familiar to us that we find then hard to give up.

Another reason, bro, is that there's a big difference between "knowing" something intellectually and "believing" it in your heart and soul. Here's an example you may have seen me using elsewhere on the site.

Suppose it's winter and the temperature hasn't been above 0 degrees F for months. There's a lake near you, and you want to get to your friend's house on the other side. You look at the lake, and you "know" it must be frozen practically solid by now. Of course it's safe to walk across to the other side instead of talking the long way around the shore!

BUT...what if the ice is thin somewhere? There's no one else around, and if you fall through the thin ice you're fucked! That is, you aren't prepared to take your knowledge of the frozen lake and BELIEVE in it enough to use it as a tool to make an important decision.

That's the process Brian is talking about. When he confronted the abuser he felt he finally knew the abuse wasn't his fault. But it took another few years for him to process everything and turn that knowledge into something he could believe in and then use.

Ideas are like people, Jesse. We may know them pretty well, but that may leave us a long way short of believing in them and trusting them.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#175042 - 08/22/07 03:11 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: roadrunner]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
no larry actually i dont remember hearing any of those lines, it was more like "do this or else/because I said so/because its what you're good for/because if you dont ill fucking kill you" all threats and i believed him because he made good on his threats. about the same thing as what you're telling me about it, i mean it was bullshit, but it was easier to blame myself and just do what i was told to do after a while, i mean how many beatings does someone have to take before they just give up and believe their nothing and stop even questioning whats happening to them you know? easier to say "well i deserve this because i'm bad so i'll just take it and hope that its over quick", then the next one comes and you think "well okay one more but i must have been really bad this time so its okay because it was my fault" and the next one, "this is what happens when you're bad and i knew id get punished anyway so this is what i get" and on and on and on and you just lie to yourself over and over again to make it okay, to make it hurt less. but it never really does hurt any less does it? then you get older and you know you fucked up somehow but you cant remember what you did that was so bad, you're faced with these adult men and they out weigh you and they out number you and they out smart you and you know theres no way out and by then, well, you just give up ya know? "whatever it was that i did this time, it was my fault and i'm sorry and i know this has to happen" and you just fucking take it again and again

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175043 - 08/22/07 03:11 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
wow- sorry that was a lot of rambling on with bullshit there, sorry, this is bugging me out today

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175052 - 08/22/07 03:19 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Jesse,

Not bullshit at all. And it makes perfect sense. Many guys here will know exactly what you mean when you talk about giving up. I had totally given up by the time I was 13: I would go anywhere with him and willingly do whatever he demanded. I didn't think I deserved better. Then when I was a young man in San Francisco it all came crashing down on me again, with the same results - I just gave up. your phrase is perfect: "I know this has to happen."

Those responses are difficult to understand and explain, but again, there are reasons for them and the bottom line is that it wasn't your fault.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#175054 - 08/22/07 03:24 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: roadrunner]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
the bottom line is that it wasn't your fault.

Much love,
Larry


say that again will ya?

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

Top
#175222 - 08/23/07 10:17 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Okie dokey...

Here's a supply. Take one every morning, another when you're feeling bad, and two anytime you start drinking.


THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT.


Much prescribing,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#175238 - 08/23/07 10:34 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Quote:
right, i hate to sound so negative but most of the time im really not sure if any of this is worth the effort.


Hi Jesse,

My name's Curtis and six or seven years ago I was just beginning my recovery. I thought I would never be happy, and now I'm the happiest person I know and it's all becuase of my effort, a great therapist, my family and MaleSurvivor.

I started here too frightened to post, I cried all the time, and I felt worthless.

You weren't here when I was a regular visiter posting all the time and always looking for support but I used to be one of the guys, and if you tried to tell me back then I could ever be happy or all the pain of recovery is worth it, I wouldn't believe you. Now I can tell you first hand it is worth it, and if I can do it anyone can.

Hang in there.


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#175565 - 08/24/07 10:34 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: roadrunner]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
larry, wow thanks, that'll get me through to my test on the 1st, after that i'll have to hit you up for a new supply lol

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175566 - 08/24/07 10:35 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: Curtis St. John]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
thanks for the message curtis, i'll remember this one.

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175568 - 08/24/07 10:47 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
One week to test time, Jesse?

I'll bet you suprise yourself by how well you do!

David


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#175573 - 08/24/07 11:09 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: sabata]
nicky Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 261
probly have to hear its not your fault about 10 million
thats what it feels like to me


_________________________
i like the rain cause no one knows im crying

a strong man is one who is able to control himself when he is angry
what is your definiton of control?

i lay awake another hour
just like the one before
the shadows play a game with my head
i can't take this anymore

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x4EOw8wPBN8




Top
#175575 - 08/24/07 11:13 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: nicky]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
If you stick around here, nicky, we'll make sure you'll hear it at least that many times. \:\)

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#175579 - 08/24/07 11:20 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: melliferal]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
Test is on saturday september 1st and i'm so goddamn irrational about it. i know my shit, i do the job, i KNOW i know it but still real anxious about it.

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175581 - 08/24/07 11:22 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Which test is that?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#175584 - 08/24/07 11:30 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: melliferal]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
firefighter II and emt/I

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175588 - 08/24/07 11:38 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
EMT/B was nothing. EMT/I can't be too difficult. \:\)

Don't know about the firefighter test, though.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#175590 - 08/24/07 11:43 AM Re: feeling helpless [Re: melliferal]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
yea emt basic was a breeze. my ticket expired so im not going through the basic refresher/test all over again, i only really need the basic for the FF job but i figured i'd step it up, maybe go all the way to medic someday who knows. assume youre an emt? FFI was pretty easy, i been hanging around this house since i was a kid and got a ton of on the job training so FFII shouldnt be too hard, a ton of hazmat stuff, a lie detector test, shit like that. its just way too much written and hands on stuff for one day, im sure you know what i mean

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

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#175596 - 08/24/07 12:45 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I was, for a while. I volunteered for a bit at the local township FD, but I couldn't land a job before my registry was up because I had a bad driving record - ha! That was a damn shame. But I still like to talk shop when I get the chance.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#175614 - 08/24/07 03:47 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: melliferal]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
well anytime you want to talk shop, let me know \:\)

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

Top
#175801 - 08/25/07 05:47 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: jessedawg
larry, wow thanks, that'll get me through to my test on the 1st, after that i'll have to hit you up for a new supply lol


Yep! The pre>
_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#175803 - 08/25/07 05:49 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: jessedawg]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
jesse,

Originally Posted By: jessedawg
Test is on saturday september 1st and i'm so goddamn irrational about it. i know my shit, i do the job, i KNOW i know it but still real anxious about it.


We'll all be rooting for you, and I bet once you get into the examination room you will calm down and just get on with the exam. Stay cool!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#175862 - 08/25/07 09:54 PM Re: feeling helpless [Re: melliferal]
nicky Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 261
thank you
id like to

_________________________
i like the rain cause no one knows im crying

a strong man is one who is able to control himself when he is angry
what is your definiton of control?

i lay awake another hour
just like the one before
the shadows play a game with my head
i can't take this anymore

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x4EOw8wPBN8




Top
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