Newest Members
Lumpy, squeekinby, rhyoung, Jefferson22, OxfordArms
12369 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
freddie (65), Max10 (56), Medos (46), PJinLB (47), TheWookinizer (27), tofeno (40)
Who's Online
0 registered (), 20 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12369 Members
74 Forums
63578 Topics
444190 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#174262 - 08/19/07 07:20 AM Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
This is a take-off from another thread that got off topic. I wanted to share my observations about the "Nature vs Nurture" question.

I've always knows I was gay, but I didn't admit it to myself or to anybody else until I was almost 40. I can understand how some people might assume that I 'chose' to live a gay lifestyle, because of the mixed signals I sent through most of my adult life. Truth is, I 'chose' to life a straight lifestyle for many years, in contrast with my true feelings.

However, this gave me a perfect opportunity to observe the 'nature vs nurture' question played out right in front of my eyes. In 1992 my wife gave birth to fraternal twins. Here we had these two infants, with the same parents, same environment, sharing the same toys; everything was the same except their sex. As toddlers, my daughter was much more detail oriented than my son, taking time to fold her blanket and using her well developed fine motor skills to meticulously stack little wooden blocks into as tall a pile as she could before they fell down. My son, on the other hand, had the gross motor skills to open a twist-off lid (something my daughter could not do) and he took great joy in running his toy trucks into those neatly stacked piles of wooden blocks.

My son was very interested in learning to walk, my daughter could not have cared less. My son would hold on to the coffee table and walk around it, but when he let go, he'd fall on his bottom. When I tried to get my little girl to stand up next to the table, she sat right down and crawled away. When my son let go of the table and took his first steps across the room, I applauded him and hugged him. Just a few hours later, my daughter was looking around for more wooden blocks and spied one across the room. Rather than crawl over to it as she always had, she simply stood up, walked over to it and sat down. Then she picked up the block, stood back up and walked back to her pile of blocks as if she had done it a hundred times before. I just sat there with my mouth hanging open for a minute before I ran over and picked her up and gave her hugs and kisses.

It became obvious to me that regardless of any external factors, my son was born a little boy, and my daughter was born a little girl. Nothing I could do would change them from that path, even if I had wanted to.

The moral of this story is that while external factors do play a role in our perceptions, I believe that our basic nature is genetically coded from birth. Gender association (whether we 'feel' like a boy or a girl inside), and whether we will prefer men or women when we grow up, are things that I think are all well established when we are born. To deny those feelings can only lead to confusion.

That's my personal experience. How do you feel?

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Top
#174284 - 08/19/07 10:42 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
Hi, Lazarus --

Good topic. I was wrestling with the same question when I was a kid.

I was seventeen, driving home from a day camp where I was a junior counselor. Really disturbed about how much I was attracted to a couple of the other counselors...no idea what to do with those feelings.

I passed by the playground where I'd been assaulted seven years earlier. I don't think it was the first time I asked myself this, but I remember clearly wondering if I was "g-g-g" (still couldn't quite say "gay" to myself in '83!) because of what that man had done to me.

Out of the corner of my eye I saw a beautiful guy, my age or a little older, mowing the lawn at the high school. He'd stopped and lifted his shirt to mop the sweat from his face. I lost my breath and swerved the car before I'd even registered that I'd seen him.

And somehow, I was really happy about that, because it felt like an answer to my question. What had just happened there was hard-wired into the system. It was biology--it was essential. Nothing caused it any more than breathing or sneezing has a source.

Today, I'm realizing how much sexual abuse and other growing-up problems affected the way I deal with my sexuality. Abuse has a lot to do with my detachment, shying away from serious connections, treating myself and others as objects, compartmentalizing, etc. But the core of my sexuality is just who I am and always would be.


Top
#174373 - 08/19/07 07:39 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: MemoryVault]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
A little less than a year ago I read an article about recent scientific theories and studies into why they just can't seem to find any genetic basis for homosexuality. At first I thought, "Oh here we go...", but as I read I realized that what they were suggesting was quite profound. I'll try to summarize.

The scientists involved in this study found an epigenome (that means groups of active genetic code rather than single sequences) that appears to impart a very strong attraction to the male gender, and it has the same effect in women. The men with this epigenome feel powerful attractions to males, thus not engaging in procreative relationships with women. When present in females however, their feelings of desire for males were equally intensified, tending to result in many more offspring than females without this sequencing.

The result is that the genes responsible for making homosexual men does not die out because when present in women, it is equally propagated by their statistically greater tendency to reproduce.

Does this make any sense? Comments? Clarifications?

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

Top
#174540 - 08/20/07 06:27 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: cbfull]
Chain Breaker Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
I think that whenever we get into a "nature v. nurture" debate about the origins of homosexuality, we turn a very complex phenomenon into an either/or proposition. I don't think any single factor can explain it. I find the epigenome hypothesis interesting. I also believe there is a very strong role for in utero sex-hormone exposure.

But to disregard or dismiss environmental factors, childhood experiences, parent-child relationships, etc., is also to dismiss science, much of which tells us that homosexual behaviour is learned -- at least in part.

To me, I think the question of "why" is much less important than the question of "how do we deal with it, both as individuals and as a society?" Compassion, tolerance, and the search for understanding must be, IMHO, the way we live.

Peace,
Joe

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
--Wind In His Hair, Dances With Wolves

Top
#174613 - 08/21/07 02:30 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Chain Breaker]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
OK, now I'm going to throw my opinion in here and probably piss everyone off!

Please note that this is my opinion, not necessarily that of MS, it's Board of Directors, Site Administrators, Moderators, or any other "-tors" that may come into play!

*begin rant*

I don't believe there is any one particular cause for sexual orientation that can be applied across the board and yet remain true in every case. So can it be a result of - -

Nature? Yes.
Nurture (or the lack thereof)? Yes.
Genetic code? Yes.
Choice? Yes

And perhaps a number of other unmentioned factors.

The thing that clouds up the issues the most and makes it that much more difficult to come to any type of civility in understanding the issue is the groups on both sides who seem to believe they have a vested political, religious, or both, agenda riding on the answer to the question. They're all doing humanity a huge disservice regardless of what "side" they are on. They should be run out the nearest yard arm.

*end rant*


_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#174661 - 08/21/07 12:06 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Hello:

Interesting topic. A couple of points: We should be careful not to confuse gender identity with sexual orientation. They are two different things. A person who has gender identity issues (i.e. they are visibly male but feel as though they should be female) is a TRANSGENDER person.

A person who is male (or female) and attracted to persons of the same sex, is homosexual (gay or lesbian)

A person who likes both is bisexual.

Transgender persons can also happen to be homosexuals, but many are heterosexual. Most homosexuals ARE NOT transgender and don't have gender identity issues.



As to sexual orientation (i.e. gay heterosexual or bisexual)
I think it is important that we all remember that Kinsey and others have pointed out that the majority of people are actually somewhere in the bisexual range, although some don't act on it, because they want to adhere to societal norms, and hence live a mostly visible heterosexual life.

Equally true, many who identify as gay, may actually be somewhat bisexual.

In my opinion, sexual orientation certainly isn't something that can be changed in people at will or by therapy, like the controversial repairative therapy. (which doesn't repair anyone in my opinion!)

Is it possible someone could be confused by early childhood sexual trauma/molestation,.... maybe in some cases....
but I doubt these people would live in long term relationships with gay partners or spouses.
And they would certainly be very troubled by their sexual confusion.
And I think those people are few and far between. If at all.

Now, soooo many people are sexually abused, especially by authority figures like ministers, etc, that certainly a percentage of these people would have been gay anyway. I.e. the rapist casts a wide net, that catches a lot of kids that would grow up to be hetero and some that would grow up to be bisexual or homosexual.

Right wing hysteria of course will put an anti-gay spin/bias against people who were molested and say "see, that's why you are a homosexual" etc. It is in the nature of the right wing, especially those with a religious anti-gay bias.

As gay people, we need to be comfortable with who we are, period. If we aren't, then there is a problem.

For me, I have a wonderful spouse and a relationship that is more stable than many heterosexuals I know.

I have met many gays and hetero people, and those who have open minds are best adjusted to life. Those who worry about other people's bedrooms are usually messed up no matter what their sexual identity.

Nature? YES YES YES
Nurture? Not convinced on that yet.
Genetics? I'm sure.

And by the way, if a gay person has some hetero relationships, what's the big deal? They were probably bisexual anyway, or just hetero curious. Really.

Nothing is so easily defined or catagorized in life as our society would like.

I won't even get into the topic of A-Sexuality.

As to some of these so-called scientific studies trying to bring the nurture into it again, I've found articles on this tend to blur gender identity and sexual orientation, miss bisexuality most of the time.... confuse desire with actions...overlook societal pressures... and many times have a predetermined slant.

I recently saw an article in Mother Jones Mag that was surprisingly annoying in that it seemed to miss the point.

I'm sure this debate will go on for centuries, until such a time (if ever) that society moves past judging and prejudicing based on sexual orientation and gender identity.







Edited by gay30something (08/21/07 12:09 PM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#174759 - 08/21/07 05:54 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Hey 30'ish...

That was a very succint summary of the whole idea. You are very thoughtful and you express yourself quite well. Before I replied, I went back and re-read some of your other posts, and those two qualities remain consistent.

I'm in total agreement with the sliding scale of sexuality, but in THIS society, sooner or later you have to shit or get off the pot; by that I mean you pretty much have to label yourself one way or another. Bisexuality is a double edged sword; it may be the best of both worlds, but if you choose to label yourself bisexual -neither world accepts you or trusts you. I know, I've been there.

The reason for my post was to give comfort to those of us who still have sexual identity issues; i.e. if you 'feel' gay then you probably are, so don't worry about it. It's not your fault, it's not your abuser's fault, it's not anybody's fault... there IS no fault. If some moron happens to ask you why you are gay, you don't even need to answer. Thank goodness that today's world is far more accepting of 'alternative lifestyles' than it was a mere decade or two ago...

I did have two questions regarding your post;

First, thank you for pointing out the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. I touched on it in my original post, but I didn't even try to explain it - you did. You also stated that, "Transgender persons can also happen to be homosexuals, but many are heterosexual." So if a Transgendered person is physically male, but feels like a female inside, which sex is the opposite sex? I've known quite a few tranny's, some pre-op, some post, but I never thought to ask them that question.

Second, I was wondering what the article in "Mother Jones" that you found so annoying, and why? You mentioned it, but then let it drop without further comment.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I look forward to hearing from you again.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Top
#174797 - 08/21/07 08:08 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Gabby with some hot air:

I add my "ditto" to Walkingsouth and Chain Breaker. If it's a choice of simple or complex, I think complex.

“Gay” is a big tent. There could be many reasons for same-sex attraction.

But first principles:

In terms of “what to do,” nature or nurture does not matter. The answer to the social and moral question is: acceptance and mutual respect. (Good luck, one and all.)

Here's another angle on causes: it may not be "I am gay/str8" but "we are gay/str8."

As Lazurus pointed out in other posts, a "bi" identity is highly unsatisfactory to other people who have identified as gay or str8. It doesn’t necessarily prove anything about the reality of attraction to both sexes, or the primordial, pre-social, basis for attraction to anything.

I read a book recently by primatologist Franz Der Wahl (studies great apes) called “Our Inner Ape.” Also read some stuff about feral children, raised in near-complete isolation. Then there is the famous study of baby rhesus monkeys separated from their mothers.

Simply speaking, feral children don’t acquire sophisticated language skills, even after much therapy and training. Like isolated rhesus monkeys, they are forever socially maladapted. They are certainly individuals, as we all are, but they can’t function in group settings.

The upshot of these studies: there is no such thing as a comprehensible individual without society. There is no such thing as sexuality without society. Therefore, without a hard genetic cause, like some inherited conditions, it’s hard to conceive of a sexual identity without reference to a group identity.

Quote:
if you choose to label yourself bisexual---neither world accepts you or trusts you. I know, I've been there


Also my experience: Just bringing up the issue, even without sexual activity, starts a turf war and invites all kinds of social intervention. Gays will mock you for your cowardice; str8s will mock you for your inability to “pass”; well-meaning (or just titillated) acquaintances will try to set you up; once the issue is alive, your behavior will be scrutinized.

Individual preference may cease to feel authentic in this pressure cooker. If you’re a vulnerable person, perhaps you’re more likely to be pushed to the margins as it were. As my professor said: “you’re so unstable; better to be gay.” And statistically, a gay identity is the margin.

Why would this bitchy feminist professor connect “gay” and “unstable”? Why do people connect “gay” and “unnatural”? Another big debate, going on for millennia I believe.

Maybe it's gender-bending, not same-sex affection, that frightens people.

Maybe it’s because growing up, including acquiring a gender identity, is scary (teenagers are always in turmoil), even for str8s. So you reach this precarious, circumscribed place of unwritten rules; then you meet a rulebreaker, someone or a group that embodies a question about identity. Who is this scofflaw? And are you the str8 person simply a sheepish, timid follower of stupid rules?

Confronted with relativism, you might be intrigued. You might display “homophobic” anger. Gays confronted with homophobia may note your insecurity and taunt you with it, having been presented with an opportunity for revenge for being marginalized.

A really good psychologist, Robert Stoller, wrote some about such dynamics.

Humans have problems with outsiders and rogues, as in rogue animals. Belonging to a group says you're not a disruptive force. We shoot rogue animals (bears, elephants, other predators) because they break the rules (don't eat people). A rouge lion or chimpanzee may kill offspring and destroy family units.

Is there a genetic gulf between a man admiring an athletic male body and a man wanting to sleep with one? After all, Sports Illustrated or other "str8" male lifestyle mags are not full of men with beer guts. Would str8 men be interested if they were?

But doesn’t it seem a stretch to say that John Fogarty was trying to tell us he was “gay” when he wrote in the song “Center Field” about “a brown-eyed handsome man” heading for home plate?

Also, if you SUCCESSFULLY join a group, you have an interest in the status quo---str8 or gay. For instance, I believe that once you start a family, you become more of a group person, more conservative with a little c, more interested in stability and safety and rules and categories. You need that village; you need to know that your hearth and home and social status will be protected---or your kids may suffer or die. You can't afford to rock the boat, to waste or forgo resources.

I'm probably overstating this idea now, but ya'll understand.





Edited by Gabbahey (08/21/07 08:37 PM)

Top
#174820 - 08/21/07 09:19 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Gabbahey]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Okay, I have been hovering for a long time over this thread, so time to swoop in and perch somewhere I guess. I see a few problems with the whole discussion - not by us here, but in general in the society we live in.

1. The first is the issue raised by John. So much of the discussion is informed by preconceived partisan arguments, and I will go further and say that there would be no debate at all were it not for the desperate need of conservative religious and political elements to make homosexuality a matter of choice, or "nurture". That is, they need it to be so in order to argue that it is "curable" and that gay guys are "like this" as a matter of choice, which they could "unchoose" if they were better informed, or if they were better people.

2. Related to this, I think there would be no debate at all if there were no prejudice against gays in society. That is, without this, a man could be of whatever sexuality he happens to be and no one would care. The distinction - in value terms - would not be worthy of discussion, or at least not above a trivial level.

3. To set "gay" up as the opposite of "straight" is to create an utterly false dichotomy, which has been known since the work of Kinsey almost 60 years ago. Most guys fit at neither extreme, and in all kinds of ways. It may not be cool, for example, to admit that you jerked off with your friends when you were a boy, but in fact that happens all the time and is very common. How many "straight" guys have at least wondered what it would be like to have consensual sex with another man but just won't say so? Or how many gay guys wonder if they are "missing something" by never having tried sex with a woman?

4. We need to realize that religious objections to homosexuality in Judaism, Christianity and Islam all go back to the problem that in Old Testament times that the survival of a tribe depended on its ability to reproduce and provide as many warriors as possible to fight to defend crops, herds, and access to grazing land and water. So if a man did not do this, that made him a dead loss to the tribe, which would respond by dishonoring and shaming him. Judaism makes that a point of religious obligation, and this is picked up by Christianity and then by Islam. Let's not fool ourselves and say the religious objection to homosexuality is based on religious considerations alone ("I only object because God does"). There are so many areas of Old Testament belief, custom and law that have been (rightly) jettisoned as entirely inappropriate to an modern enlightened society, but this one remains. Take a guess why.

I don't have any professional background in the nature/nurture debate, but as a "straight" guy who has "gay" friends I can't imagine why anyone would simply choose to be gay as a kind of whim, without feeling he was acknowledging feelings that are really a deep and intrinsic part of his being. When I was a student a Princeton we had a young gay guy in our house who decided it was time to come out. Man, I never saw anyone go through so much hell as was dumped on that guy. His parents were distraught ("What have I done to make you hate me this much?"), his friends mostly ran for cover, and there was a lot of malicious giggling behind his back ("Have you heard...?"). In our house one of the women shunned him, saying that guys only "turn gay" because they hate women, and when I stuck by him I got taken aside and told, "Larry, you need to realize there's talk about you too now" \:D Unbelievable! Who would "choose" that crap?

Well, no answers or ideas, just some thoughts on the topic.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#174823 - 08/21/07 09:24 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Gabbahey]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Wow, Gabby! You said a mouthful! I think you've justified the need we seem to have to 'Label' ourselves. Obviously there are alot of dynamics going on here, and you've described many of them very well...

But I have to take exception to the 'rogue'... it seems to me that modern culture loves the rogue, the bad boy. James Dean, Emminem... the list is endless... we have a rabid love for the rule-breakers and trouble makers... they are the ones who stretch the envelope and make social change happen... as long as they don't go too far, or cross certain boundaries.

But boundaries change. I have a manget on my refrigerator that says, "I was gay before it got trendy." Now we gays are the ones who are the rule-breakers that will change society... If you're not gay, you probably have no idea how much things have changed in the last 20 years in terms of gay rights and social discrimination.

You had so much to say in your post it's hard to digest in one swallow. I'll have to print it out and read it a few times before I can make congnitive observations, but at first read I think you are right on. Very intuitive for a str8 guy... LOL

Love ya, buddy... talk again soon...

Lazarus

P.S. Your friend Katie is mirroring this thread in Family and Friends Forum...

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Top
#174916 - 08/22/07 08:31 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Arrgghhh...this discussion again...LOL.

Being gay is not a choice....our attraction and feelings outside of sexual are not a choice. We love who we love and that IMHO is in us from day one. I did not choose to be gay but I did choose to play it straight for 28 years and that choice dang near killed me.

Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

Top
#174955 - 08/22/07 10:40 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: pain4ever]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: pain4ever
I did not choose to be gay but I did choose to play it straight for 28 years and that choice dang near killed me.


Well said, Brian. I'm glad you made that point.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#174968 - 08/22/07 11:15 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: pain4ever]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Pain:

Quote:
Being gay is not a choice....We love who we love.


I agree. Love is not a choice.

Quote:
in us from day one.


Something is in us from day one---but not sure what.

Clearly, this discussion does not resonate with you.

You're so lucky.

However---this love and let love ethos only makes sense in this binary gay/str8 discussion. These are two politically correct identities that involve consenting adults.

I know we're not going to invite the man-boy love association to this table, or the Dutch pedo political party. Probably not going invite the organized lovers of animals either.

Our self-help books and gurus are always telling us how to get out of bad relationships, where, presumably, love was involved.

Obsession and danger and self-destruction are the spice of stories of love. Romeo, Streetcar, the Iliad, Bonny and Clyde, and so on.

Check out Katie's excellent post on this issue in Friends and Family. The kicker:

Quote:
I doubt anyone is simply born hardwired to want relationship with rubber suits.


And yet people "pair bond" with all kinds of stuff. There was a show recently about men who prefer very lifelike manikins to real people.

Mike



Edited by Gabbahey (08/22/07 12:02 PM)

Top
#175202 - 08/23/07 09:19 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Gabbahey]
Armyguy2007 Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Upstate NY and Fl
All

I love the idea that we have a place to talk about this. I have struggled for some time with what I might be. Not if I was gay or straight, but if I was sexual at all. I have been identifying with being Bi if anything. "The problems are if you choose to label yourself bisexual---neither world accepts you or trusts you".
I look at sex as an act not something that really serves a real purpose, but create more mental pain.

_________________________
Greg
Armyguy2007

The is no such thing as “AN ARMY OF ONE”

Every generation has its heroes. Mine is no different.

Top
#175234 - 08/23/07 10:30 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
i think this question is raised because there is still a taboo over being gay. like it is this huge problem and no one wants to admit the cause of it. but if you look through out history, it wasn't always like that. essentially the only thing that is different between the gays and the sraights is how we have sex and who we are attracted to. looking back at art and liturature from the romans, from the greeks, from lots of differnt cultures touch upon homosexuality but it was no big deal. in my opinion, the only reason we are having this conversation because somewhere along the way, the general mass switched and decided it was unnatural and wrong. so that leaves the masses with this notion that it is a problem and everyone is out looking for a cause. you aren't going to find it. everyone is different. no two people are raised the same. (even twins.) no two experiences are the same. everyone's chemical makeup is different. good luck explaining it because i think you wont ever solve anything until the masses reverse the thinking that it is this scary problem that they want to prevent so their kids dont turn out gay.


Top
#175267 - 08/23/07 11:39 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
<<<I did have two questions regarding your post;

First, thank you for pointing out the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. I touched on it in my original post, but I didn't even try to explain it - you did. You also stated that, "Transgender persons can also happen to be homosexuals, but many are heterosexual." So if a Transgendered person is physically male, but feels like a female inside, which sex is the opposite sex? I've known quite a few tranny's, some pre-op, some post, but I never thought to ask them that question.>>>


Well, I think I would have to consult my Transgender contacts and advisors. No, Seriously. It is hard for plain old gay people to understand everything about Transgenderism.

I know a Transexual person, post op, male to female. I'll ask her.

She is in a relationship with another TG/TS person. I think they also identify as lesbian.



<<<Second, I was wondering what the article in "Mother Jones" that you found so annoying, and why? You mentioned it, but then let it drop without further comment.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I look forward to hearing from you again.>>>

Well, I want to read the whole article over again first, but essentially there was something in it that was slightly apologist for repairative therapy, saying it shouldn't be totally dismissed....and that gays should find other ways to protect their rights, i.e. not relying on gay as an immutable characteristic.



I should say that it is interesting to read the posts on here. There are a lot of people that see gays as far more marginalized in society than I do.

I think where we live in the USA (or elsewhere) -- what state, our other groupings, i.e. race, religion, socio-economic status, etc do play a big part in it.

I don't feel like all of society in my world sees me as some weird thing. I actually feel that the MAJORITY OF SOCIETY in my area in the northeast USA views gays as just a part of society.

While we do encounter discrimination at times, I wouldn't say it is daily or even weekly.

Yes, some people get funny at times when I refer to him as my spouse (which he is legally!)
On occasion a nasty person tries to abuse their authority and treat us differently or whatnot... but it is not the norm, it is the exception when we are discriminated against.

As for bi people having to S--- or get off the pot, I both agree and disagree. I think it depends on who is in the bi person's life.

If they are in a crowd of rough people all the time, who are uneducated, it may be this way. But not among the majority of society.

I can see however, that there could be problems when dating women. I have heard that from people even in their 20s -- that a significant number of women shy away. But probably because they are afraid to be dumped in favor of a hot guy.

I do think prejudices are far less against gays than they used to be.

Just five years ago, a license from my state for my relationship would have been unheard of.

But those in more conservative, hard right wing rural areas, are probably experiencing most of the same prejudices that have been experienced in decades past.

It is also important to note that in states (most of them) where they do not have gay marriage or civil unions or in other cases domestic partnerships for gay people....and in some cases no anti-discrimination laws, the sociological health of gays as a collective group MUST be more compromised.
In those states, sadly still a large number of them, gays can be fired for their sexual orientation.

This makes people feel like second class citizens.

I should say also, that those who are "in the closet" even here in my area, tend to be less healthy in my opinion. They are critical of us for having a civil union, make comments as if there is something wrong with us for excercising our rights and expecting to be treated as full citizens.
People, gays, who are in the closet are forced to constantly self censor, and hence also censor their acquaintances who are "out".
I'm not saying they are bad people, I'm just saying that by constantly self censoring, it does have a negative effect.

But it is important we remember, we as gays are the victims of a society with a strange way of viewing sex, sexuality, orientation, gender, etc.

It could be worse. In Jamaica, the most homophobic society in the western hemisphere, they routinely bash gays, all the time....far worse than here in the USA





Edited by gay30something (08/23/07 11:46 AM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#175320 - 08/23/07 02:54 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
I think one of the things complicating this is that you can be gay/straight/bi/trans/queer in four different categories (at least), and many people kind of mix and match.

1. Basic Orientation
Try the "street test." You're walking down the street, not really paying attention, and someone passes you going the other way. You don't consciously notice them, but a moment later, you realize your heart's beating, you've been holding your breath, and you know that the person who passed you was amazingly attractive. You instinctively turn around to see who that was... Maybe that person will always be a man or a woman. Maybe both genders do that to you. But that's as good a measure of your pure biological orientation as you get.

2. Actions
Who do you sleep with? Who do you go out with? Who do you form a relationship with? What do you do, and not do? Your actions can be at variance with your basic orientation, given enough pressure. Unlike orientation, "nurture" may have a lot to do with your actual sexual expression.

3. Personal Identity
What do you call yourself? Do you think of yourself as "gay," "straight," "heteroflexible," etc.? If you listed the top ten most important things about you, where would this label fall on your list? Do you identify with cultural stereotypes, or reject them?

4. Public Identity
How do you allow people to identify you? Do you proclaim your gayness/bi-ness/straightness? Wedding ring? Commitment Ceremony? March in parades? Do you hang out with people who aren't like you? Closeted gay? Closeted straight? (It happens in the theater world!) Closeted bi, facing crushing pressure from both sides? Straddling lines--telling different people different truths?

The point is, these four dimensions may not be aligned with each other. I'd think it's easier when they are. And "nurture" plays more of a role in some of them than others.







Edited by MemoryVault (08/23/07 02:57 PM)

Top
#175394 - 08/23/07 09:06 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: MemoryVault]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: Jarrad
i think this question is raised because there is still a taboo over being gay. like it is this huge problem and no one wants to admit the cause of it.

Yup, absolutely, and to take it a step further, does the cause matter? Does it really? Seems to me that argument about cause just perpetuates the misunderstanding and bigotry. Not that we'll EVER be able to get folk to quit arguing about it. (sigh)

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#175462 - 08/23/07 11:38 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Well yes, in a way the cause does matter. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE being gay. But when simple minded people chastize me for my lifestyle 'choice' and say that I should live by their rules, I have to take exception.

Really, to me it doesn't make any difference. Whether I chose to be gay or was born that way is irrelevant. That's just the way I am, and you better get over it. As long as society doesn't make a big issue over it, I won't either... But when the self-righteous pundits claim that I am not normal, not moral, and therefore not entitled to equal treatment, I will object by whatever means are available.

I have two kids and a house and all the problems that everyone else has. I also have a husband, a co-parent to my kids, and a partner in all regards; EXCEPT that is this society's view I am a single parent and we are two guys who just hang out together. Nothing more... But as far as we are concerned, we are married till death do us part.

I know this is not the topic of this thread, but the reason we debate whether being gay is a choice is that we have to sacrifice our civil rights to be gay. That is not by choice yet we still do it, no matter the consequences. The debate will go on, and eventually we will win the rights and freedoms that are granted to our heterosexual brothers and sisters. As long as there is a dividing line between us, we must argue every nuance of our difference.

IMHO

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Top
#175469 - 08/23/07 11:59 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Well, what some heterosexual people fail to realize is that the bigotry and 2nd class citizenship in society is what makes us have a need to speak out, be counted, be visible.

If people all left gays alone, and respected our rights, allowed us to marry, stopped people from firing us because of our orientation...... there wouldn't be any need to discuss it any more than heterosexuals discuss their marriages...

But wait, uh, yeah, they show everyone that they are heterosexual and married to someone of the opposite sex, don't they?
Photos, rings, etc.

As to second class citizenship, Lazarus, I am very sorry to hear that society in your area views you as just two single guys living together.

When you live in a state (which is a very new thing) that has gay marriage, or civil unions, it makes a difference. Now, you have a significant amount of legal protection, rights and responsibilities, at least in regards to state and local laws.

I would predict that in the next two years, we will see several other states gain civil unions.

Certainly, viewing you as "just two single guys living together" is wrong, and sad.

There have always been homosexuals, bisexual, heterosexuals and probably Asexuals too(not interested in sex with anyone)
It is just how society reacts to this at any given time that makes life easier or harder for us.

It is a shame right wing conservatives seem to still dictate a lot in our society.

And the hipocracy, with ministers all over the place, taking advantage of young people in their ministries/care -- raping them -- all the while criticizing CONSENTING ADULTS in relationships they don't approve of (whether gay and married, or straight and "fornicating") is just plain ridiculous.

No one is telling them what to do in their churches (well, aside from expecting that they not allow rapist ministers to run wild and prey on their flocks). They shouldn't tell greater society what to do in their bedrooms.



Edited by gay30something (08/24/07 12:03 AM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#175491 - 08/24/07 01:02 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Lazarus,

Quote:
But when simple minded people chastize me for my lifestyle 'choice' and say that I should live by their rules

You make my point. What business is it of theirs what anyone is, and I can't blame you at all for feeling the need to take exception. It's just bizarre why some folk feel the need to point out the "evil" in other peoples lives in order to hide their own.

They fail to follow the counsel in the>
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#175495 - 08/24/07 01:16 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Well, guys, it's important to realize that our country, and most of the world, is filled with religious fanatics ... that go far out of their way to hurt others, emotionally and sometimes physically -- in some twisted way to prove they are holy.

Of course, they violate the bible when they do this. But they don't read that part of the bible.

They make their own rules, and get large groupings of people to follow those rules.

Why anyone should care about someone else's sexual orientation is beyond me.

But take examples like the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, and how he made a career out of going after gays.

A vocal and hateful example, who fortunately only has a small following of people is Fred Phelps (godhatesfags dot com is his site I think -- don't go there, it will MAKE YOU SICK)

He's almost as bad as the taliban.


And a lot of money.

By the way, in my bible I couldn't find any evidence that gayness was a sin. It's just not in there.
Jesus never talked about homosexuality, at all.

There were a few>


Edited by gay30something (08/24/07 01:22 AM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#175660 - 08/25/07 01:16 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Gentlemen,

I know I've contributed some to this thread, and the tone it has taken. I agree that some who call themselves Christian are probably anything but. I also know that myself and any number of our brothers here on the site consider ourselves to be Christian and would NEVER put down any brother here because of their orientation.

Let's try to keep some balance here and not paint everyone with the same brush. It can feel pretty hurtful being painted as a Christian bigot along side those who claim to be Christian but really are bigots.

The fact of the matter is that there are extremists of every persuasion, class, and dogma who do all of society an evil turn by their own form of bigotry against whatever group it's popular for them to hate. It's unfortunate, but true.

Bottom line, this site is open to, and should be a place of safety for men (and women) of all walks of life, religion, social strata, and sexual orientation, who want to find healing for the terrible things that have happened to them or their loved ones.

John




_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#175699 - 08/25/07 10:39 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
John,

I wanted to clarify why I believe Christianity is a VERY important point here...

At least with my post, I think I've made clear who I'm talking about, Right Wing Fundamentalist Christians. That's obviously not you, or anyone else who has respect and understanding for all types of people.

I'm not talking about the loving Jimmy Carter type Christians.

Please don't be offended by the truth, that there is a faction amongst Christianity, that takes a hard Right Wing slant, and uses homosexuals as bigotry - bate to get more members. It's the plain truth. Heck, it's all over TV.

These people are about as right wing, in some cases as the Taliban in Afhganistan. That comparison was made by Jimmy Carter himself. He recently said that there are people who would like a Christian taliban to run our country. He said that on TV.

So this does affect us. I think the larger political-religious-sociology and politics of society do have a major impact on victims of sexual abuse, including male victims.

The more hard right wing a society is, the less intelligent the response to sexual victimization.

If you are a good Christian, who loves everyone, and doesn't denegrate others, then you aren't in that group.

But Taliban - like hard Right Wing bigots do exist within some factions of christianity -- and they hurt homosexuals who have done nothing to them.

They also distort the pedphile/child abuse problem, and twist it around to try to blame it on homosexuals....
This of course is scientifically and historically incorrect, but they do it anyway.
It also let's the real abusers off the hook.

Take for example the Catholics, much effort has gone into blaming the sex abuse scandal and coverups on homosexual orientation priests.
Yet again, scapegoating. Ignoring any higher powers in their organization who covered up, moved rapist priests around, etc.

Never mind all those girl victims, they are invisible, because it doesn't help their white washing.

Then, when people start to get angry, they start a witch hunt for priests who have ever had homosexual orientation in their lives.

Nope, don't go after child rapists, go after homosexuals instead.
Don't discuss the problems of celibacy, go after homosexuals instead.
Don't discuss the sado-maschicistic tendancies of church dogma, as brought out in "perversion of power" by Mary Gail Frawley...
just blame homosexuals.
Don't make any binding changes, or let outsiders view the secret files that would reveal other child rapists who are still in positions of authority....blame homosexuals instead.



So, I think it is very very important that in a gay abuse forum, we not ignore the fact that there are right wing factions of many major religions, that use gays as bate for scapegoating, prejudice, bigotry and fear mongering.

And it is equally important that we realize that the only ones in the USA who have intentions of taking over our society are the fundamentalist Christians. They weild a lot of power, and in recent years, it has been used very irresponsibly.

Right wing Christians are the ones behind 99.9% of the prejudice gays experience in the USA, no doubt about it. It's not right wing muslims, because they aren't in positions of power here.

So, this falls into the nature v. nurture discussion and the wider discussion of male survivors of sex abuse.

Personally, in my own life, I'm sure I wouldn't have suffered abuse via a religion on this level if my parents had sent me somewhere that wasn't so heirarchial and right wing.
I'm sure abuse is far less common among the more open minded Christian sects.
Sunshine and openness exposes problems and deals with them. Right wing secrecy is what perpetuates abuse.

But this is only in reference to those hard right wing christian sects and religions that actively persecute homosexuals, while at the same time burying the truth about the predators in their heirarcy.

These are in many cases the same sects that at one point or another passed around petitions against gay marriage, or in other cases demonized and ostracized gays from their churches.

These are the right wingers who use gays as pawns in a chess game. This is very real for us gay people.

Again, Christians who follow, truly follow, what Jesus taught, are not doing these things. They respect gays as human beings and they realize that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, not once in the Gospel. They recognize that he didn't see it as an issue.

This ties in to to the nature v. nurture issue, because hard right wing religions many times try to say we "choose" to be homosexual, and hence forth should be punished. Some of them actually preach that homosexuals should be put to death...right from their pulpits. Right here in the USA.

Others acknowledge that homosexuality may be natural, i.e. genetic, but that somehow we must not think about or act on our desires and live celibate lives -- constantly chastising other homosexuals who don't follow this dogma.

So, it is all linked together, and no it doesn't have to do with all Christians, just those who are part of right wing bigoted sects.

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from. But my views are all over TV and newspapers. Maybe not on CNN, but certainly on shows that take these issues in depth, such as Religion and Ethics on PBS and other shows.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I only seek to express my opinions, which I believe are based in truth.

I am personally very much comforted by the presence of true Christians, loving Christians in this forum, and in my life.
Some of the nicest gay people I know happen to be Christians, and are very active in their churches.

Christianity is supposed to be about love, and to the extent that I encounter those Christians who love their neighbors, it makes my world a better place.

So, thank you to those on this forum who are Christian and bring their moderate views here - and help us all in our recovery from sex abuse.




Edited by gay30something (08/25/07 11:00 AM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#175765 - 08/25/07 03:13 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
g30s,

I hope you didn't mistake me. My last post was just me slipping into the moderator role for a moment in an attempt to keep this thread from declining into something potentially hurtful. I have not been offended by any comments here but was suddenly struck by the specter of where this thread could potentially go and how quickly it could do it. It's been known to happen in the past and I simply wanted to try and prevent that. I think further I was a tad concerned that my comments earlier in the thread could possibly be taken by some as license to open up with both barrels.

I thank you for your honesty and your well thought out opinions. I think we're pretty close to agreement on much of it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#175786 - 08/25/07 05:09 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Thanks for the clarifications.

This is a very interesting forum, filled with a lot of interesting insight.

_________________________
gay30something

Top
#175946 - 08/26/07 07:54 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
hayden502 Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
I'm a bit offended by this posting. You put the word feel into quotations ("feel") as if to say that a boy doesn't really feel like a girl or a girl doesn't really feel like a boy. You make this statement but not once do you mention anything about transsexuality. When a boy feels like a little girl, that has NOTHING to do with nuture. Sorry, that's not true. It's completely nature. A boy feels like a girl because he really is a girl trapped in a boy's body. What transgendered research has generally agreed on is that it has nothing to do with the child, it has to do with the mother. When the mother is in her first trimester during pregnancy, a trauma(environmental or physical) occurs causing the mother's horomone balance to plunge into chaos. Thus, this causes the baby's brain and genitals to mis-match and when the baby is born WHAM out comes a boy with a girl's brain. Very simple when you think about it. Transsexuala know they are boys trapped in girls body's or vice versa before the age of four. According to Erik Erikson's stages of social development, a child registers his/her own gender before the age of 5. Most people who feel "gay" don't tend to have those feelings to they're at least 8 or 9 years old. At 5 years old it's impossible to identify your sexual orientation, but not impossible to identify your gender.

I don't mean to bash your theory or opinions, but what I've stated above is factual. I'm sick and tired of people affiliating gay with transsexuality. One has nothing to do with the other. I have friends who are both gay and trannsexual and there is absolutely no similarities between any of them. Gay is a male that is exclusively attracted to other males. Transsexual is a male or FEMALE that is born in the wrong body. The defenition alone doesn't reveal that their is a corolation between gay or transsexual.

People can disagree or theorize this all they want, but this is based on research and fact, not opinion.

Kyle.


Top
#175960 - 08/26/07 08:36 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: hayden502]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Hayden, I'm assuming you are referring to something I said, since your post is marked [Re: Lazarus]. If that is the case, you have seriously mistaken me because I couldn't agree with you more. If my words did not convey this, I am sorry.

I put the word 'feel' in apostrophes because I don't know how to italisize in this format. I did NOT mean to imply that these feelings weren't real or accurate. I have always felt that transsexuality is also a result of nature. I know quite a few transsexuals and there is no question in my mind about that. I also know many more homosexuals, and while 90% of them are gay by nature, the others actually do choose this lifestyle because of some event that caused them to dislike women. But I've never known this to be true with transsexuals.

The only thing that homosexuality and transsexuality have in common is that they are both aspects of human sexuality and therefore predisposed by biology.

Hope this clears things up.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

Top
#175968 - 08/26/07 09:19 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
hayden502 Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
Lazarus,

I apologize for the explosive reply. To be honest, my wife's best friend is a transsexual and whenever I read or hear anything that even slightly compares gay to transsexual I react. It's something that I need to work on. I guess it's not my job to educate the world. Either people get it or they don't.

I also understand why you put "feel" into quotation. After you've explained it, it makes a bit more sense now.

It's also nice to see that you're not ignorant towards transsexuals like most of the people in this fucked up world are.

*smiles* Thanks Lazarus,
Kyle.


Top
#176007 - 08/26/07 01:24 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: hayden502]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Hi:

I think it's also important that we not forget that a person who is transexual (having gone through an sex change operation) and Transgender COULD also be homosexual or lesbian.

But the two are not intertwined.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different things.

But people get confused, sometimes intentionally though.
I had relatives when I was coming out as gay, ask me if I was going to have a sex change operation.

They knew what they were saying was incorrect, they were just bigots.

_________________________
gay30something

Top
#176008 - 08/26/07 01:25 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
But there are also Transgender person who are heterosexual.

_________________________
gay30something

Top
#177781 - 09/02/07 10:03 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
hayden502 Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
Well, that's just it. The general ignorance believes that a transsexual woman (male to female) is actually a gay man that is too ashamed of being gay and wants straight cock. The only way that "he" feels that "he" can get straight dick is by claiming to be in the wrong body and making that transition.

This is ridiculous for at least two reasons:

1) It's not like being gay isn't accepted in this day and age. Why the FUCK would anyone sane or insane go through all of the brutal transitioning and slicing and dicing of their body and genitals just to get cock? Why wouldn't you just stay a guy and find a "hetro-acting" gay guy.

2) Science has proven over and over and over and over again that there is a difference between a transsexual woman and a man's hormone level. The same goes with a transsexual man and a woman's hormone level.

To be honest, and I hope this kills any "well, i dunno" bullshit right here and now, my wife's friend that I was mentioning in my earlier blog is a post-operative male to female transsexual (in other words, she's a woman) and identifies as a lesbian. In fact, she has a girlfriend that she's planning on getting married to.

So yes, a transsexual man or woman can becomes the gender they were supposed to be in the first place can be gay, straight or bisexual like any other man or woman.


Top
#177792 - 09/02/07 12:53 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: hayden502]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
The basic problem is that there will always be a number if ignorant trashy mean spirited bigots, who will intentionally confuse things, ridicule anyone not "straight" and beer drinking - despite all the education on these and other issues provided to them in society.

I think young people, in this day and age, know full well the difference between TG/TS and Gay/Lesbian.

Some of the older people might not, and even that is changing.

Interestingly enough, there are even young children these days, who are TG and recognized by the medical community.
If these children have good parents, open minded parents, and an open minded community - they may live much happier lives.

Happy Holidays everyone.



Edited by gay30something (09/02/07 12:54 PM)
_________________________
gay30something

Top
#178618 - 09/06/07 11:07 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Chain Breaker]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chain Breaker
I think that whenever we get into a "nature v. nurture" debate about the origins of homosexuality, we turn a very complex phenomenon into an either/or proposition. I don't think any single factor can explain it. I find the epigenome hypothesis interesting. I also believe there is a very strong role for in utero sex-hormone exposure.


I just remembered where I read the article, and it's kinda long but worth the read if you have the time. The article can be found here:

The Real Story on Gay Genes

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

Top
#178664 - 09/06/07 02:07 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: cbfull]
anyway90 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 148
I dont think its important to know whether its nature or nuture..

I think that its more important to know which sex you like(or both)and head in a clear direction.


Top
#178690 - 09/06/07 04:20 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: gay30something]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: gay30something
Interestingly enough, there are even young children these days, who are TG and recognized by the medical community.


HEY i have a buddy whos daughter said that sometimes she feels like aboy inside and he even has a name shes 7 years old and sometimes shes his daughtyer thern other days shes thi s little boy so
whats up with that?

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

Top
#178691 - 09/06/07 04:21 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: jessedawg]
jessedawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 345
Loc: New York
uhsorry im drunk

_________________________
Firefighters - your worst nightmare is just another day at the office.

Top
#178951 - 09/07/07 11:31 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: jessedawg]
delta.tetra Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Netherlands
Q for christian m2f p/o trannies... or anyone who knows one.

Do you think that a trans 'man' who has his genitals surgically removed becomes a 'woman', or do you think it always was a 'woman' - a 'woman' born with balls and a cock and sperm cells?

Is the child of one 'woman' with a womb and one male-to-female pre-operative transgendered person who provided the sperm, actually the child of two women?

How on earth can a Christian make any sense of this?

Jesus didn't have an earthly father... but his dad wasn't a woman.

I'm confused and prayer isn't helping. \:\/


Top
#178999 - 09/07/07 03:21 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: delta.tetra]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Delta,

I'm not a woman or a trans, but in my opinion, no matter what the gender or gender expression, a parent of a child is a parent of a child. God (in my opinion) hasn't spoken about these topics at all, so I think as long as the person is a loving parent, the rest isn't very important in that context.


Top
#179241 - 09/09/07 07:23 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Dewey2k]
delta.tetra Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Netherlands
Dewey2k

Thanks for your response.

You reminded me again that I would probably never be troubled by this question if I had not been sexually abused by this transsexual person.

It is pointless to speculate if I was abused by a man or by a woman. Fact is I was abused by my parent, whatever gender it is.

The mother parent knew exactly what was being done, and did nothing to protect her children. I'd call her a cow but cows are ok.


Top
#461717 - 02/28/14 11:07 AM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3342
Loc: O Kanada
i really like what you posted, Lazarus.
thoughtful and thought-provoking.

i also appreciate what you have to say, WalkingSouth.

i have thoughts and experiences which do not seem to fall into any convenient category.
a complex issue, to say the least.
people are MORE than labels.
as soon as we try to label ourselves, we discover that labels are inadequate and confining.
identities can be limiting as well as liberating.
having raised three children, i generally agree with you about "nature coded from birth".
while there are similarities...
all three of my children are completely unique characters, with their own value systems, and each views their childhood from a different perspective.
one would think they were raised in separate homes.

i have always believed that sexual orientation can not be "nurtured", because, as far as i know, most people who identify as "gay" were raised by heterosexual parents. i don't know anyone who has homosexual parents.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

Top
#461722 - 02/28/14 12:00 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: victor-victim]
Chase Eric Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 1350
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
i don't know anyone who has homosexual parents.

Thanks, Victor - I agree with what you said but thought it worth mentioning here that I know a few gay couples raising adopted kids. None of those kids have turned out to be gay so far, and I suppose that could be taken as further evidence in support of your "nurture" contention.
_________________________



Click my pic to see why I'm here

Top
#461775 - 02/28/14 10:38 PM Re: Gay or Str8 - Nature vs Nurture [Re: Lazarus]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 915
Loc: New York
There are lots of straight-acting closeted gay parents.

This is not really an answerable question, because human sexual desire covers such a broad spectrum, and sexual BEHAVIOR an even broader one, sometimes not really guided by carnal desire at all. Then take something as complicated as that and add centuries of cultural norms and taboos worldwide, and back through to antiquity.

People can have primary desires, and root that as a major anchor for their identity. But there's never been a gene found that causes being gay, as 21st century Americans understand the conceit to mean, nor will one ever be found.


Matt
_________________________
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.