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#172801 - 08/12/07 11:18 AM To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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URL: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/1...ican_witch_hunt

Rollingstone.com


'To Catch a Predator': The New American Witch Hunt for Dangerous Pedophiles
From Issue 1032
VANESSA GRIGORIADIS

Posted Jul 30, 2007 9:40 AM

No one is home at this house on the Jersey Shore -- no one, that is, except a very cute and horny fourteen-year-old. Her parents went to Atlantic City for the weekend, she is telling guys online, and she wants to get laid. Dozens of men are now making their way to the house, hoping to get lucky with an underage kid. One hopped on a motorcycle for the six-hour drive from Pennsylvania; another grabbed a train from New York in a SpongeBob SquarePants jacket, armed with a bottle of K-Y Jelly. One by one, they pull up to this white-shingled, weather-beaten house at the edge of the Atlantic Ocean, with no cars in the driveway and the window shades drawn. A mailman stuffs some bills into the shark-shaped mailbox next door, pulling open its door of tiny white teeth.
This, as the men will soon discover, isn't just a house: It's the set of the Dateline NBC show To Catch a Predator, the ratings phenomenon that zooms into America's living rooms to humiliate sexual perverts. The program's gotcha! moments are like those on any reality show; who can forget the time they made a bespectacled twenty-year-old come over naked for sex play with some Cool Whip? Except Dateline sends people to jail and claims a high-minded purpose: warning the American public about what it calls a "growing national epidemic."

To transform a house into a giant flytrap for sexual predators, it takes more than forty people, many of whom are hanging out in the living room on this Friday afternoon. There's the face of the operation: host Chris Hansen, a blond Dateline correspondent, discussing helicopter trips to more glamorous assignments with his producer. There's the eyes of the operation: Mitchell Wagenberg, a spy for hire wearing a long, skinny braid down to his butt, presiding over seventeen cameras hidden in dried-flower wreaths and the toaster. And there's the body of the operation: Casey, a sexpot college student and aspiring dancer in tight jeans who is playing jailbait decoy today because her landlord dad owns this house. (Added bonus: Local prosecutors wrote her college a note so she could get out of a chemistry test.)

Casey gabs to potential predators on the phone. "Come on over, we're not going to get caught," she says. "If we got caught, I would get into trouble, and everybody would call me a slut, and I don't want that, either. I'll pay for your gas. It's no big deal, trust me. My dad gave me plenty of money for the weekend." When the guy fails to take the bait, her voice rises in pitch. "OK, fine, whatever, lame. L-A-M-E. You're being a baby. I told you I've done it a million times!"

None of these people, however, are the brains of the operation. Those, appropriately enough, are located upstairs, in the house's third-floor attic. For the Dateline sting, the space has been converted into the warren of Perverted Justice, a secretive citizenry of seventy-five predator-fighting zealots determined to save children from the long-term scars of sex abuse. The group is an assortment of Genesis-loving fatsos from Texas, introverted copywriters from Wisconsin, and New York nightclub doorgirls, with a dedicated core of West Coast anarchist tech geeks and gamers in their twenties and thirties. For those downstairs, To Catch a Predator is just a TV show; for those upstairs, hunting predators is both the coolest online game they've ever known and a life calling. Many members of Perverted Justice use pseudonyms, keeping their real names secret even from one another. One of the few who know their true identities is their elusive leader, Xavier Von Erck, a twenty-eight-year-old libertarian and atheist who kills on Civilization IV.

It's getting late, and the four top-ranking members of Perverted Justice here in the flesh -- Del Harvey, Frag, Pibb and Don Pedro -- are arranged around computers and video monitors balanced on the attic's chairs and beds, eagerly awaiting their afternoon prey. "Friday night, baby -- hookup central!" says Del. At twenty-five, she's a computer geek's fantasy female: androgynous, beautiful, pierced, with comprehensive musical knowledge and a house overrun by pet Maine coons and an iguana. One of her favorite shirts features two cars crashing into each other under the symbol CTRL+Z. "Get it?" she asks excitedly. "It's a car crash, and Control-Z is the command for undo!"

Del pecks madly at her keyboard, coordinating the thirty-five volunteers who are working on this sting remotely. They chat with men on Yahoo!, AOL and MySpace about topics such as "have u ever given a bj b4?" and "do you have thick or thin pussy lips?" In the past few days, PJ members posing as young girls and boys have chatted with nearly 300 men. About thirty will actually show up at the house this weekend. A few guys are scheduled to appear soon -- a salesman, a printing-press operator and a college student who has revealed that his uncle is a captain at a nearby police department.

Suddenly Frag leans toward his IM screen, which is scrolling rapidly with news from far-flung PJ members. "We got one -- Ikeman!" he exclaims. "Ikeman coming from the south, in a blue Chevy Impala. He's bringing wine coolers!"

Everyone turns their attention to the camera following the Impala as it disgorges Ikeman, a.k.a. John Donnelly, a handsome twenty-one-year-old who is wearing a striped sweatshirt and a look that's equal parts sexual anticipation and terror. Casey runs outside to meet him, taking a seat in a chair on the beach. He approaches slowly.

"Where are the wine coolers?" she asks.

"I was going to get them after I met you because I was so paranoid," Donnelly says, looking around. "Man, I was just worried about this shit because I never met anyone under eighteen." He scrutinizes a couple passing by. "I guess there are no cops around, so it's cool."

"Yeah," says Casey, smiling. "You can see there's no one here."

He rubs his head. "I'm just worried that it's some crazy scheme," he says. "It's just like what you see on the news --"

"I don't watch the news!" she says, snickering.

"Well, I don't watch the news either," he says. "But you know on Comedy Central's Daily Show, they make fun of the news, but it really is the news, right? And I heard there's cops who pretend they're girls and shit like that." He laughs as his body finally relaxes, like a cat finding a patch of sun. "I guess everything's cool," he says.

Just then, Chris Hansen streaks toward him, a camera crew not far behind.

The degree to which things are about to get uncool for Donnelly is amazing to contemplate. Twenty-eight men are caught in the bust, and the local prosecutor's office brings charges against all of them. If they're convicted, their sentences for attempted sexual assault will range from five to ten years in prison.

In direct response to the high-profile success of To Catch a Predator, laws against online predators have become increasingly hostile: Internet solicitation of a minor is now a crime in a majority of states, regardless of whether an actual minor is involved. By 2009, at least 600,000 of the country's convicted sex offenders -- including those who, like Donnelly, never met an actual minor -- will be required by a new federal law, the Adam Walsh Act, to be listed on a national registry of sex offenders. There, on easy-to-navigate maps for the entire country, their photos and home addresses will appear next to categories such as aliases, sentence and "computer used." Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch even thanked Perverted Justice for "directly impacting" the law's passage.

Twenty-four states now forbid sex offenders from living near a host of public places -- including schools, parks, day-care centers and bus stops -- effectively shutting them out of many cities. Florida and Oklahoma require some sex offenders to submit to GPS monitoring for the rest of their lives. Ohio lawmakers even tried to pass a bill in 2005 to force sex offenders to sport pink license plates on their cars, but pressure from Mary Kay cosmetics, whose logo is pink, stymied the plan. This year, legislators are trying again with fluorescent-green plates.

This is much to the glee of Perverted Justice, which views child sex abuse as a vastly underrated evil, one deserving of harsher punishment. "I'm just a guy working within the Constitution to make the world a better place, using my freedom of speech to chat with individuals on the other end of the screen name," says Frag. "How much more gratifying does it get than finding guys who are about to molest children and putting them in jail? Not many Americans have that."

In reality, though, the stings conducted by Perverted Justice are essentially designed to circumvent the Constitution. Police departments are largely overtaxed in the area of Internet crimes, and since Dateline reportedly pays Perverted Justice $100,000 per sting, the group is able to provide its services to the cops for free. In many ways, it is a subcontracted police force, with Del and Frag even deputized by local cops for one Dateline sting. But because its members are private citizens, their actions are impervious to charges of entrapment. Casey's come-on at the New Jersey house is not unusual: Perverted Justice tries to talk predators who have decided against a date into changing their mind, making calls in calming, baby-girl voices to men who are having second thoughts.

While some police departments enjoy the publicity that Perverted Justice brings, many in the criminal-justice field aren't so sanguine about the group's tactics. "We can't let anyone who wants simply become law enforcement," says Mike Iacopino, co-chair of a task force on sex offenders assembled by the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "This is no different than letting a guy with a six-shooter walk around protecting your hometown.." Indeed, many child-protection agencies express a disapproval of Dateline.. "We've seen numerous cases that would constitute entrapment, and then Chris Hansen shoves a camera in these guys' faces and they end up convicted on the basis of the camera confession," says Brad Russ, director of training for Internet Crimes Against Children, a federally funded task force that declined to partner with Dateline. "The whole thing is a perversion of the way the criminal-justice system is supposed to operate."

There is something undeniably disturbing about watching a delicate law-enforcement operation being orchestrated by a group of citizens hellbent on revenge -- and anonymous ones at that. (During a Dateline sting in Texas, one alleged predator committed suicide while cameras waited down the street from his house.) In addition to the seventy-five "high-security-clearance" members who form the core of Perverted Justice, another 45,000 people have signed up for the group's online forums, where anyone can puff up their chest and play deputy dog. Despite warnings by the group, these nameless volunteers have made harassing phone calls to predators and mailed flyers to local businesses outing sex offenders. In addition, they post their own "investigations" under a section called "Human Shields." Perverted Justice also posts the pornographic material that predators have sent to decoys -- Webcam photos of their penises, videos of themselves masturbating -- alongside their first names and hometowns, thus disseminating the very perversions it fights.

Even more disturbing, anti-predator stings involving decoys may actually outnumber crimes involving real victims. On an early episode of To Catch a Predator, Dateline estimated that there are 50,000 predators online at any moment -- a number the show pretty much made up out of thin air, though that didn't stop Attorney General Alberto Gonzales from citing it as fact in a speech last year. But a study conducted by the University of New Hampshire estimated that there were fewer than 2,900 arrests for online sexual offenses against minors in a single year. What's more, only 1,152 involved victims who were approached by strangers on the Internet -- and more than half this number were actually cops posing as kids.

Perverted justice started out as a hobby. You could call it Stupid Pedophile Tricks -- Internet geeks have long pretended to be young girls and boys in chat rooms and then turned the tables on unsuspecting guys ("u be the nurse"; "I jam the thermometer down the head til you feel it touch your pelvic bone"). In 2002, Von Erck, at the time a tech for a TurboTax-like computer program, and Frank Fencepost, a thirtysomething tattoo artist and motorcyclist, began playing tricks in chat rooms in Portland, Oregon. Fencepost took things to another level, telling guys to come over with Taco Bell and pizza, then meeting them at the door with a raised baseball bat.

"Innocence is a very precious commodity, and it's in our interest to preserve a kid's as long as possible," says Fencepost. "There's nothing finer than the feeling when some bastard who thought he was about to 'score big' with a ten-year-old gets the surprise of his life: my face on his monitor, my voice on his phone and, in a figurative sense at least, my shit in his mouth."

Fencepost and Von Erck posted the logs of these chats, attracting a dozen others who wanted to get in on the fun. This new group increasingly took its tricks offline, bullying alleged predators with sinister phone calls. One PJ member who calls himself Antiperv said he posed as the principal of a local elementary school. "I'm having a 'Get to Know You Better Day,' and I'd like to have you come down and piss on all the kids," Antiperv told his victim. "Talk to us about the best liquids to drink to get a good yellow piss, and, if time permits, allow the children to piss on you." They also made inflammatory calls to the families, neighbors and employers of predators. "It's important to be very explicit in your calls," says a former member. "Once a predator is incarcerated, you can call the prison and say, 'This particular prisoner wanted to make a thirteen-year-old girl eat dog food while he fucked her in the ass.' One can assume that would stick in a guard's head.."

But in 2004, Von Erck and Fencepost had a falling-out over tactics. "Xavier became much more oriented toward getting pedophiles arrested rather than just making them complete social pariahs in their neighborhood," says Fencepost. A Detroit broadcast on Von Erck caught the attention of Hansen, a smart reporter known for using hidden cameras, who took the idea to Dateline in 2004. All told, Perverted Justice has helped arrest about 250 men with the show, nabbed 200 more in other stings and scared straight hundreds of others. In a move that whitewashed the group's prior bullying and abusive tactics, Von Erck has wiped all traces of early chats, including Fencepost's, from the Perverted Justice Web site. Earlier this year, he deleted entries from his personal blog as well, upset that journalists had located them and quoted some of his writing: "I wish I could fucking kill 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Yes, kill. I'd like to kill them. . . . I want you to die. I wish you would die. Why don't you die? Just die." For a while clicking on his blog brought up a message addressed to "lazy idiots who aren't that bright." The subject line read, "You'll have to do some work now."

For a group devoted to exposing those who hide behind online anonymity, the masterminds behind To Catch a Predator are only sporadically accountable themselves. Perverted Justice didn't respond to my e-mails for nearly two weeks, claiming that my account had blocked its return messages because the "perverted" in their URL was registering as pornographic. NBC, for its part, refused to provide any phone numbers for New Jersey predators, citing a "standards and practices" provision that bars it from sharing unpublished news-gathering. And a particularly disaffected former member of Perverted Justice left me a vaguely threatening voice message: "The reason I'm calling is one of the things that makes PJ cultlike is I spent some time wondering if you are who you said you were or a PJer trying to see what they could find out about me. I spent a half-hour poking around, I found out you and your husband are thirty-three years old, and he's been arrested in California for something minor, and you and I went to the same school. . . . Also, you post too much information about yourself on the Web. I wouldn't add to it. I just wanted to let you know I had that thought."

The predators themselves were incommunicado as well. I searched for more than a hundred men busted by Perverted Justice and found only eleven with listed numbers, all of whom were terrified -- worried about being evicted from their homes, losing their jobs, even becoming targets of random violence. (One study shows that as many as one in two sex offenders experience some form of harassment by strangers.) I sat behind a noisy waterfall in a vegan restaurant with one Dateline predator and in a banquette with high seat backs in a Mexican cafe with another, and they were still worried about who was watching them. "Maybe I'm paranoid, but I've got good reason to be paranoid," wailed one. A divorced father of two started to weep: "I love Dunkin' Donuts, but I won't go in anymore. I'm so scared of the first encounter with someone I know who has seen me on TV."

Although To Catch a Predator fosters the belief that child molesters are largely violent and untreatable, sex offenders actually have the lowest rearrest rates of all convicts. According to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics, only five percent of convicted sex offenders re-offend in three years, and studies show that fewer than one in four commit another sex crime in fifteen years. Men who rape women are more likely to return to their old ways than pedophiles who molest girls.

What's more, Perverted Justice's tactics may actually make the threat of child sex abuse worse instead of better. While the group has caught dangerous predators who eluded other law-enforcement methods, ninety percent of the men busted on To Catch a Predator have no rap sheet, and few have any sort of sex offense on their record. By whipping up public frenzy about online strangers, Perverted Justice diverts attention from the real source of child sex abuse: relatives and acquaintances. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, ninety-three percent of perpetrators of child sexual abuse are known to the child. "The focus on 'stranger danger' makes most people less suspicious of those they know," says Jill Levenson, a leading sex-crimes researcher at Lynn University in Florida. "And that could make it easier for known abusers to fly below the radar."

What Perverted Justice leaves in its wake are a lot of disturbed men with deep psychosexual problems whose national humiliation robs them of any real chance of re-entering society. Wesley Brannen, a twenty-five-year-old carpenter from San Bernardino, California, who was busted by the group, was released in January after eighteen months in prison. At six-one and 265 pounds, he looks like a white-boy gangster: shaved head, Vandyke beard, red plaid shirt. His parole officer is making him wear a GPS bracelet, but Brannen looks on the bright side. "The good thing is that not only child molesters wear these things, but gang members too," he says. "So I figure people will think I'm in a gang."

At first, Brannen speaks softly, talking about how he has slept with only four women in his life. He says he even wrote Perverted Justice an apologetic letter. But soon he's bursting with a toxic mix of anger and bravado. "These thirteen-year-old girls don't look like thirteen-year-olds no more!" he says. "Man, when I'm off parole, maybe I'll get a woman from Peru -- one who doesn't speak English, so she won't ask about my past."

As he talks, Brannen drives aimlessly around San Bernardino in his Lexus. His dad and mom both live too close to schools, so Brannen is staying at a halfway house in the hills. Though he's clean now, he used to be a meth addict who made his living scamming credit cards. He hit on Perverted Justice's thirteen-year-old decoy, he says, only because he had just returned home from a weekend smoking meth with some girls at a roadside motel and was still hot and bothered when he got on Yahoo! chat. "I was thinking to myself, 'This ain't right,' but I was so spun everything was off-kilter," he says.

After a while, Brannen reveals that he was molested by an older man when he was seven. "For so long I carried that around," he says, "like it was my fault that he did that to me." Deep down, he wanted revenge and became obsessed with searching for registered sex offenders online. "If a guy did something serious, like molest a young kid, I'd try to get the homeboys to go over there and clean out the guy's house," Brannen says, stroking his beard. "Now I'm in the same situation myself, and I'm worried about who is going to come get me."

In recent weeks, it has started to seem like Perverted Justice may have overstayed its welcome on the national stage. For the first time, its tactics are starting to backfire. A district attorney in Texas recently refused to prosecute twenty-four men busted by Dateline, citing insufficient evidence, and the city manager who put together the sting was forced to resign in disgrace. NBC also got rid of the show's producer, who retaliated with a suit alleging that she became a target when she expressed reservations about the ethics of the show. NBC denies that claim, but a source within the network says that the days of To Catch a Predator, unpopular with advertisers, are numbered: NBC plans to phase out the show after four more stings.

None of this bothers Xavier Von Erck, whose obsession launched the franchise. "Hey, the TV show could go away tomorrow, and it doesn't matter to me," he says. "Perverted Justice will still do what we do, roll how we roll."

Von Erck, whose nickname is X, is sitting in a bookstore cafe in Portland, dressed all in black. He looks a little like Philip Seymour Hoffman, five-eleven and round all over. He wears tinted eyeglasses and walks with a limp because he spends so much time at the computer that his eyes are now light-sensitive and his leg muscles have seized up. In a way, he's an odd doppelganger for Brannen, another guy who seems childlike but wants to be a gangster.

Though he wasn't molested himself, Von Erck felt robbed of his childhood by his father and legally changed his name from Phillip Eide to eradicate the last vestiges of his paternal namesake. "My dad was an alcoholic scumbag commercial fisherman who hit my mom," he says. "She left him when I was one, and he went on to impregnate ten more women up and down the West Coast. His name is garbage." As a teenager, the only thing that brought Von Erck back to a state of innocence and wonder was the computer -- until he decided that the online world was teeming with sex offenders. "I was so into the computer," he says. "I went into chat rooms thinking it was going to be utopia, and it was dystopia."

It's easy to see how Perverted Justice resembles a game to Von Erck. Intentionally enigmatic himself, he demands utter transparency from predators and Perverted Justice members, like a junior-high-school kid playing D&D who always wants to be the dungeon master so he can control every aspect of the game. He guards his power closely, requiring members to give him their entire Internet history (all screen names, all pages joined) and going to war with "stupid" people who dare to criticize Perverted Justice. He exacted a particularly sadistic form of revenge against Bruce Raisley, a software developer from Arkansas who launched an aggressive anti-PJ crusade. Posing as a woman named Holly, Von Erck began an online flirtation with Raisley, who was smitten enough to leave his wife and rent a new apartment. On the day Raisley went to pick up Holly at the airport, Von Erck sent a friend to snap his photo and posted it with a warning: "Tonight, Bruce Raisley stood around at an airport, flowers in hand, waiting for a woman that turned out to be a man. . . . He has no one. He has no more secrets. . . . Perverted-Justice.com will only tolerate so much in the way of threats and attacks upon us."

Here, after all, is the point of Perverted Justice: to destroy and vanquish, to re- establish utopia, both online and off. With or without To Catch a Predator, the man known as X is onto the next stage of the game, taking on even bigger prey than horny guys who stalk young girls. Von Erck's new obsession is what he calls "corporate sex offenders" Ė online sites that don't do enough, in his view, to rein in the pedophiles who use their services. MySpace is exempt from the campaign -- since March, at the request of PJ, it has removed more than 3,000 predators from its site and forwarded their addresses and online profiles to the police. But Von Erck is mobilizing his thousands of followers to write letters to companies advertising on LiveJournal and YouTube, demanding they withdraw their support.

"Corporations have a choice about having the pedophile community use their service and upload videos on their sites," he says. "People want to know if you're responsible on this issue."

Von Erck looks out into the distance, imagining a world in which every predator has been ferreted o ut and cyberspace is his again. "When it comes to the Internet, pedophiles got there first," he says. "It's a check game, where they make one move and we try to check it. But slowly but surely, we're catching up."


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#172805 - 08/12/07 11:34 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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and the problem with what they are doing is?

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#172809 - 08/12/07 12:40 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
melliferal Offline
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I might have a problem with "To Catch A Predator"'s tactics, if it weren't for the fact that in order to end up on that show, the perps have to actually show up at a house where they've been told a kid is home alone.

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#172831 - 08/12/07 02:45 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
TJ jeff Offline
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Lot's of mixed feelings in me on this one...

I've watched a few of Datelines shows on this

I know online predators are a real problem - no doubt about that - part of me says that it's great that they are being tracked down and stopped - and yet another part of me says that perhaps PJ and the dateline crew are taking it a little to far with their baiting tactics - I mean - with the pleading for the guy to come over - calling him a wuss if he don't - ect... - I dunno... - I mean - if the guy was leading the conversation - if he was the one persuing (not the one being persued)- then yeah - he's a real perv - he needs to be stopped - bigtime - just too much baiting I guess for me... - as I said I dunno - I'm torn - the guys did show up - so I mean they obviosly got problems - just too much baiting for me I guess...

I dunno - I just see a bigger problem that PJ and dateline seem to totaly be missing as desribed in the quote below...

Quote:

Perverted Justice diverts attention from the real source of child sex abuse: relatives and acquaintances. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, ninety-three percent of perpetrators of child sexual abuse are known to the child. "The focus on 'stranger danger' makes most people less suspicious of those they know," says Jill Levenson, a leading sex-crimes researcher at Lynn University in Florida. "And that could make it easier for known abusers to fly below the radar."


I dunno - I guess I'd just like to see more on TV about the 93% - instead of that being swept under the carpet...

Just my feelings - for whatever it's worth...

TJ jeff

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#172832 - 08/12/07 02:47 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: TJ jeff]
hideout Offline
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i think they are doing the right thing, but taking the wrong approach


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#172848 - 08/12/07 04:49 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: hideout]
TJ jeff Offline
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May TRIGGER!!!

guess I was triggered a bit by this article - took a bit to understand why - now I understand why...

("u be the nurse"; "I jam the thermometer down the head til you feel it touch your pelvic bone").

that is what uncle done to me at 5 years old

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#172849 - 08/12/07 04:56 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: TJ jeff]
hideout Offline
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what a horrible thing to say to a 5 year old


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#172896 - 08/12/07 11:15 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: hideout]
Lazarus Offline
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As much as I dislike their methodology (anything for a buck reality television) I can't say that I dislike the results. Not only the hundreds of perverts who have been stung, but the rest who are now so afraid that they wouldn't even try it...

And civil liberties be damned, I don't care if they were entrapped. They knew what they were doing was immoral and illegal; they shouldn't have taken the bait, no matter what.

In this case, I think the end justifies the means.

Lazarus

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#172904 - 08/13/07 12:14 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
WalkingSouth Offline
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My huge problem with this whole thing is not so much that they are doing it but that they put themselves off as these gifts to American society. They operate with sensational aggrandizement of themselves and their program and willingly give the impression that they are making a dent in the situation while they completely ignore the fact that the other 90 plus percent of the problem which is the children that are abused in the home or by people they know at church, at school, in the neighborhood, or by other relatives. Let's see them do a sting on that and then maybe we'll be getting somewhere.

I know, I'm reacting here rather than using any kind of rational thought, but it's my first thoughts after reading through this.

John

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#172922 - 08/13/07 07:08 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
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I guess I go out on a limb here and say I find this whole operation pretty upsetting. Yes, a few predators are being caught and exposed, but that pales compared to other issues, of which the following are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Like others have said, this show ignores the fact that more than 90% of abused kids are hurt by people they know. The huge publicity this show gets is enormously damaging not just because it ignores the 90% majority, but even more importantly, because it implicitly suggests that the real peril comes from strangers off the Internet. It gives the idea to parents that if they are vigilant about their PC, then they have their bases covered so far as dealing with the danger of CSA is concerned. In fact, however, nothing could be further from the truth.

2. This program seems to create predators, judging from the fact that most of the guys who are caught are men with no criminal record of any kind. The show goads and baits guys into making the arrangements to meet, pressures them if they falter, and then exposes them and gets them sent to jail. But what is the net gain to society in such a case? Nothing. A predator is not the guy who has unhealthy thoughts, but the one who acts on those thoughts. If the guy's action was provoked by the show, then when they nail the guy all they are doing is harvesting a crop of their own creation.

3. John's comment is a very serious consideration. The purpose of the show isn't to address a problem in society, but to make money, nothing more or less. And Perverted Justice - however much we approve of the results - is just the power trip of one central figure and a few assistants. Do we really think that motives don't count?

4. Perverted Justice encourages scads of volunteers to devote their efforts to vigilanteism and focus on the "stranger danger" when what we really need are people to staff the hotlines, talk to troubled kids, work on awareness programs, advocate for more funding, speak in public, and so on. How many of us know that a LOT of calls to child abuse hotlines fail because of understaffing or poor equipment? The kid is freaking out as he calls, but somehow he does it - and what he gets is a busy signal or a message to hold the line. So he hangs up and never calls again.

5. Justice and the rule of law either prevail or they don't. We can't have the rule of law for most cases, but then, on the side, vigilante mob justice for a few especially heinous crimes. Our codes or criminal and civil justice are build on principles, and when those principles are eroded in some way that is a threat to all of us. Our fathers and grandfathers had to fight a world war over the consequences of that basic fact being ignored, and the menace is still with us today.

6. Thinking about things in terms of absolutes - black or white with no gray areas in between - is never conducive to solving social problems. Simplistic perspectives appeal to our emotions and our sense of moral outrage, but in reality the problems are very complicated and cannot be addressed in this way. A vivid example is Prohibition, which not only failed to eliminate alcohol as a social problem, but also produced a whole generation of new criminals and planted the seeds for what would later become the Mafia.

Much love,
Larry

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#173322 - 08/14/07 09:53 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
jacobtk Offline
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Originally Posted By: melliferal
I might have a problem with "To Catch A Predator"'s tactics, if it weren't for the fact that in order to end up on that show, the perps have to actually show up at a house where they've been told a kid is home alone.


Actually, they do not have to show up. The name "Perverted Justice" is amazingly applicable. Groups like it are indeed a perversion of justice, resorting to predatory and perp-like tactics to entrap and trick people into committing a crime they may not otherwise commit. They even resort to leading the person until the person says something that can be used against them.

Personally I would not let a single person remotely associated with groups like Perverted Justice anywhere near a child. They are just as much a risk, if not more.




Edited by jacobtk (08/15/07 12:00 AM)
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#173328 - 08/14/07 10:15 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
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its called perverted justice because they bust perverts ,not because they pervert the law ,dont see in that article that its not perverted justice thats bringing in the media but the cops themselves ,we can argue over this forever ,if one potential perps is caught then yeah its a good thing ,what is a kids life worth? nobody else is doing a damn thing to stop these sick pedos. what if your perp had been caught up in a set up ? before they found you?

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#173356 - 08/15/07 12:37 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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It is not a good thing to entrap and bait people who had no interest or intent on harming children into making incriminating statements. If one must resort to deceit and manipulation to get a the desired response, then that is something that should be not supported, regardless of the intent. More so, if one knows a person engages in such deception, what reason is there to trust anything that person claims or presents as evidence?



Edited by jacobtk (08/15/07 12:47 AM)
_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#173400 - 08/15/07 09:44 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
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I'm starting to waver on this. I think that if NBC really wanted to help protect kids, it could spend all that money in better ways than paying these guys to go online and spend hours and hours trying to convince fools to try pedophilia for a day so they can bust them on National TV.

I agree with Larry. If these people spent even HALF as much time on phones talking to real honest-to-goodness kids in trouble, as they spend on the net badgering people into becoming offenders, think of the lives that can be saved - both figuratively and literally. I don't think these folks would be able to relate very well with victims, though.

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#173417 - 08/15/07 11:49 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
shadowkid Offline
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if they had no intrest in harming children ,what the fuck are they doing on a teen chat ,talking to kids?

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#173423 - 08/15/07 12:06 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
melliferal Offline
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Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if they had no intrest in harming children ,what the fuck are they doing on a teen chat ,talking to kids?


There is that, but when some of those people snap back into reality and say "Wait a minute, what am I thinking? This is not a good idea" - which is what we WANT to happen - the PJ folks call them up to beg, taunt, and cajole them into doing it anyway. I'm not sure that's right.

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#173427 - 08/15/07 12:36 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
shadowkid Offline
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ok exactly when does this snapping back happen? when im lying on the floor bleeding ? and hes looking down thinking maybe i shouldnt have done this?

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#173434 - 08/15/07 12:49 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
melliferal Offline
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I'm referring to instances like this:

Quote:
Casey gabs to potential predators on the phone. "Come on over, we're not going to get caught," she says. "If we got caught, I would get into trouble, and everybody would call me a slut, and I don't want that, either. I'll pay for your gas. It's no big deal, trust me. My dad gave me plenty of money for the weekend." When the guy fails to take the bait, her voice rises in pitch. "OK, fine, whatever, lame. L-A-M-E. You're being a baby. I told you I've done it a million times!"


Kids don't talk like that.

There's a difference between someone in a chat room who actively tries to hit up someone they think is a kid, and someone in a chat room who has to be wheedled into doing anything, I think.

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#173453 - 08/15/07 01:44 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
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If they really think it is not a good idea, do you think being taunted is going to change that?

These are people you have to meet at their own level.... I have no pity for them. none. I don't care what needs to be done. They need to be stopped.

And I am sorry...I don't care if they were perped themselves. These are children we are talking about. Whatever it takes to protect them. These people go to these rooms all on their own. No one makes them go to these sites or stay there. Guilt by association in my book.

If they are talking to 'children' like this, they need to be dealt with. If I ever found someone talking to my kids about those things...I can't write what I would do for fear of legal ramifications.

I may be a bit biased as a mother and anyone who knows me knows I can be just a bit protective, but someone needs to be. We need to protect the innocent.

I have seen too much pain here to give a damn about the right of perps.

sorry...a bit energized about this.


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#173457 - 08/15/07 02:16 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: healingpartner]
melliferal Offline
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Well that's a good point. There really is no excuse for having such a conversation with a kid (or someone you've been told is a kid). I suppose unless someone already is a pedophile, they're not going to be "convinced" to be one, no matter how much they are taunted. I guess you're right.

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#173564 - 08/15/07 08:57 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if they had no intrest in harming children ,what the fuck are they doing on a teen chat ,talking to kids?


Perverted Justice does not report where exactly the chats occur, only that they have occurred. In many instances, the chat logs provided to authorities are private chats, so it is quite possible that a previous bait conservation took place in a public chat room on an open site that is not restricted to people under 18 and the person assumed the baiter was of age when the conversation was later carried over into private chat rooms.

_________________________
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#173565 - 08/15/07 09:01 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
jacobtk Offline
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Originally Posted By: melliferal
Well that's a good point. There really is no excuse for having such a conversation with a kid (or someone you've been told is a kid). I suppose unless someone already is a pedophile, they're not going to be "convinced" to be one, no matter how much they are taunted. I guess you're right.


In much the same way one cannot be "convinced" to confess to a crime one did not commit no matter how much one is taunted.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#173581 - 08/15/07 10:34 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
melliferal Offline
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There's a difference. People have been hounded into falsely confessing because the police appealed to their sense of self-preservation (i.e., it will be easier/less punishing on you if you just do this). I don't think that psychological atmosphere exists in a chat room (i.e., "you're going to be in some kind of trouble if you don't come here and have sex with a minor"). The situation is not analagous.

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#173792 - 08/17/07 12:23 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: melliferal]
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I think to catch a predator is the same as any reality show involving the law... like cops or americas most wanted... all it dose is show people making mistakes, it dosnt adress why they are making these mistakes or how to prevent them

i dont really feel that bad for the men who were cought... but to say that the world is safer because of Chris Hansen i think is a joke.

I think if NBC was serious about doing real journalism and protecting kids they would do a datline special about how sexual abuse. really about it. how it effects people... and show us that it isnt the crazy guy at the park we need to watch out for but the uncle or close family freind that is the real bad guy.

in my opinion this show is for shock value and really is doing more damage than good.


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#173798 - 08/17/07 12:57 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: theatrekid]
shadowkid Offline
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so in other words nobody believes that of all the guys they supposedly trapped ,not one kid was saved? the dateline stuff is not the only thing pj does to catch perps . if you wanna catch a predator you gotta use what they feed on ,then when they start to circle you gun them down. do you guys believe that anybody would confess to wanting to have sex with a 13 year old if it wasnt true/!? to me one kids life is worth anything those sick bastards got trapped in. how can it address why perps perp? if you could answer that one you have it whipped huh? lets not forget every one of them truly believed they were going to meet a 13 year old!how do we prevent what you call mistakes? destroying a kid is just a mistake this guy made? you lock their sick asses up thats how you prevent it .



Edited by shadowkid (08/17/07 08:38 AM)
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#173924 - 08/17/07 02:20 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
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I am not in the habit of taking the words of those whose job it is to deceive and lie. No one actually knows how these statements were gotten. No one knows what was edited out. Perverted Justice is quite unwilling to those records to anyone who asks for them. People like those from Perverted Justice are not really concerned with helping children. Those who demonstrate a lack of morality, or one that shifts to suit their personal needs and wants, are not those in whom anyone should trust.



Edited by jacobtk (08/17/07 02:32 PM)
_________________________
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#174004 - 08/17/07 09:52 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
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all the chat logs are on the website ,read them

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#174126 - 08/18/07 02:02 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Again, I am not in the habit of taking the words of those whose job it is to deceive and lie.

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Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#174130 - 08/18/07 03:21 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: jacobtk]
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_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#174139 - 08/18/07 03:46 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
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i guess doing nothing is the way huh? ever heard of bikers against abuse? another vigilante group ,but they dont use dception they go to the abusers home and kick his ass! yeah 20 big bikers show up to have a talk with the abuser . seems to be real effective. but maybe cause we got hurt it gives us a right to just do nothing.



Edited by shadowkid (08/18/07 03:49 PM)
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#174140 - 08/18/07 03:48 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
hideout Offline
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nope
doing nothing is not the way, doing it in a different way is though
now all we need is a different way


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#174147 - 08/18/07 05:03 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: hideout]
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_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#174149 - 08/18/07 05:13 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
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i have one last thing to say on this topic

how are you supposed to prevent abuse in households if kids are afraid to talk and nobody wants to admit they want to or have done it.


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#174157 - 08/18/07 05:46 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
healingpartner Offline
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Originally Posted By: jacobtk
Again, I am not in the habit of taking the words of those whose job it is to deceive and lie.


I agree completely...but I am guess we would disagree who it is. I say it is the perps


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#174178 - 08/18/07 07:22 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Originally Posted By: shadowkid
i guess doing nothing is the way huh? ever heard of bikers against abuse? another vigilante group ,but they dont use dception they go to the abusers home and kick his ass! yeah 20 big bikers show up to have a talk with the abuser . seems to be real effective. but maybe cause we got hurt it gives us a right to just do nothing.


As we are all aware of, violence is hardly a demonstration in courage or integrity. I think the difference in our opinions is based on the difference of our experiences. While I experienced violence, I also experienced a lot of deception and manipulation. It was never clear how I should behave, who I should trust or why I should do anything I was told because everything would eventually get turned into some kind of fault. Lies were told with no apparent reason, even to the extent of my father convincing my brother that his mother was dead when she was not.

So one can imagine that when a person or a group says that they lie, trick and deceive to elicit the responses they want I would not be inclined to trust that person or group. I am unwilling to resort to using the behaviors I grew up with, the behaviors I know can lead to mistakes and false claims, just because those they are applied against are not particularly liked.

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#174289 - 08/19/07 11:23 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
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jacob thanks k? i can totaly understand how you feel . and i cant argue with that ever . sorry if i came on strong ,maybe its just the feeling of being helpless to do anything to stop the pain and knowing that it happens to a kid somewhere everynight .

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#174500 - 08/20/07 12:36 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: roadrunner]
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Larry, I agree with everything you said, except point # 2...

Originally Posted By: roadrunner

2. This program seems to create predators, judging from the fact that most of the guys who are caught are men with no criminal record of any kind. The show goads and baits guys into making the arrangements to meet, pressures them if they falter, and then exposes them and gets them sent to jail. But what is the net gain to society in such a case? Nothing. A predator is not the guy who has unhealthy thoughts, but the one who acts on those thoughts. If the guy's action was provoked by the show, then when they nail the guy all they are doing is harvesting a crop of their own creation.


It's the part about predators acting on their unhealthy thoughts. Well, these guys did act on their urges. Even if it was a trap, someone who would do this kind of thing would do it for real if the opportunity arose. I know it's a drop in the bucket, and not altogether altruistic, but it IS something...

Just my thoughts,

Ric

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#174565 - 08/20/07 09:30 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
shadowkid Offline
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i cant stay away from this post , think about what really happens on the shows ,these guys never did have contact with a 13 year old ,so they probably cant be charged for that ,maybe for sending porn over the net ,some fines and probation ,BUT they are exposed ! their sick stuff is exposed for everybody to see ,now their neighbors know ,now everybody in town knows ,people will look at them different ,shy away from them ,treat them like outcasts .does any of that stuff sound familier? yeah its exactly what happens to victims that come forward ,seems kinda like poetic justice to me ,feel sorry for them cause they got trapped? seems like thats exactly how kids get perped . its cool to protect peoples rights ,but dont lose sight of whose rights your fighting for ,also maybe cause they got trapped ,a search warrent for their house finds kid porn?or a kid in the closet .these guys aint getting life for showing up .but they sure wont be hiding anymore . cant see the downside here .

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#174590 - 08/20/07 10:58 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Originally Posted By: shadowkid
its cool to protect peoples rights ,but dont lose sight of whose rights your fighting for


If people's rights are worth protecting, then it should not matter who the person is. However, if one is allowed to choose whose rights one will protect or disregard, then technically one cannot find fault with those who disregard the rights of children.

One must always be careful not to project one's personal experiences onto other situations. Every situation is different, as are the people involved, and it is unfair to place upon them responsibility for acts they have not done. Or as my uncle would put, what you think you know and there is to know are two different things.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#174601 - 08/21/07 12:05 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
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when you agree to have sex with a 13 year old ?you give up those rights . it is a fact that they solicited sex from what they believed was a 13 year old.

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#174657 - 08/21/07 11:49 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
AJC Offline
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Wow - i have stayed out of this topic for a while. I have mixed emotions on this show - because I see lots of different types of men showing up at these houses. I see the really creepy ones that you can almost tell that this is the "umpteenth" time that they have done something like this... and then you see the guy that is pacing outside, peeking in the door, fighting the urge to do something he shouldn't... and even the guys that don't come in, change their mind, realize that "HEY - what am I DOING HERE? THIS IS WRONG!!! I gotta get out of here before I do something terrible! What was I thinking???" They still get busted.

The problem with internet chat is that you can do it anonymously. It's all anonymous. You can be whatever you want to be. You can be whoever you want to be. If I enter a chat room I can be a 12 year old boy, I can be a Ferrari salesman, I can be a teen-age lesbian, I can be a bi-curious man, I can be a US Army Viet-nam vet..... Whatever I want to be, I can be. It's all anonymous.

So when these men or women get into these chats, they may KNOW - "Hey - this is inappropriate" they are fooled into thinking - well, I can just chat - i'd never really MEET a 13 year old girl in real life - i'll just play pretend for this taboo experiment...." I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS - JUST TRYING TO BE REALISTIC ABOUT HOW AND WHY A NORMAL - NON-CRIMINAL WITH NO RECORD MIGHT FIND HIMSELF IN THIS SITUATION.

I went to the perverted justice website and read the tran>

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#174660 - 08/21/07 12:03 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
when you agree to have sex with a 13 year old ?you give up those rights .


As do the liars who cajole people into making incriminating statements.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#174817 - 08/21/07 09:09 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#174828 - 08/21/07 09:55 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
I don't know?

If I am standing in line at the bank with a ski mask on, a gun in my pocket and a note in my hand that says, "Give me all of yer money!" I think I've stepped over that line between thinking about it and doing it.

I watched this show just once...I just kept thinking to myself...how incredibly stupid are you? As one after the other showed up. Carrying wine coolers!!?? Come on.

I know the vast majority of abuse occurs by an acquaintance or family member and this show tends distract in the same way that similar shows did in the eighties when the focus was on abductions by strangers. Resources were depleted and the general population were given the impression that the majority of child abductions were perpetrated by strangers rather than by someone known to the child. Ultimattely fewer resources were available for the children most at risk...

But!!! And it is a huge one...it did raise awareness...which is crucial.



Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#174857 - 08/22/07 12:50 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: ttoon]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#174912 - 08/22/07 08:03 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
"There is most certainly the possibility that some of these "perps" have considered robbing a bank before, but very few of them ever actually will."

And encouragement from what they perceive as a thirteen year old boy or girl is the deciding factor it would seem.

As a response to my own comment about how I felt these experiences were my fault ( I was three when it started)...my therapist asked me,

If a three year old boy stood directly in front of you...no clothes on...and said, Do you want to fuck, what would you do?

Kinda put it into perspective. It is always the adult's responsibility...always.


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#175090 - 08/22/07 07:19 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: ttoon]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
3 convictions in the last two years? this is acceptable to you? perverted justice got 320 last year . i think before you pass judgment ,if you have the stomach for it ,go to perverted justice website and read the chat logs ,and yes they are real and law enforcement will attest to that ,read it before you say somebody got lured in . these guys came knocking on a door that said teenager ,tuff shit if there was a cop behind it instead. also we should be totaly objective here right ? we should consider all sides right? consider the rights of potential predators right ? after you go to pj site if you have the stomach for it like i said ,why not hop on over to one of the pedo sites and check out what they have to say about pj? then come back and tell me they have a right to be on just as much as ms does, example ,boycht a site that pj has shut down twice,yeah its right there on the net ,now we cant call the name of that site deception can we? i mean if a 13 year old boy typed in boychat to say talk to other teens ,well guess where hes gonna end up ,is that entrapment? i just think your on the wrong side ,cause its kids lives at stake not some friggen pedos civil rights

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175119 - 08/22/07 09:30 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: roadrunner]
BJK Offline
Member
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK



Edited by BJK (08/22/07 09:31 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175165 - 08/23/07 05:50 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
ttoon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Bryan,


Please do not confuse passion for opinions as serious repurcussions. :-)

Come-on...you got something going on in there....everything is relevant.


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#175171 - 08/23/07 07:12 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: ttoon]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK



Edited by BJK (08/23/07 07:31 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175175 - 08/23/07 07:56 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
ttoon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Thanks, Bryan,


Truly.

Your honesty is amazing...even for here.

But this is exactly why I wanted you to continue...because there was something going on in there.

Thank you.

From the very beginning you have put yourself out there...expressed what you are feeling regardless of the repurcusions. You are supportive to everyone, caring...

As males...this process is so difficult. Not only does society resist the idea that a male can be victimized...we are assaulted with accusation, inuendo about the "liklihood" that we will offend.

As a survivor it is assumed that we can not or do not posess the ability to distinguish between thinking a thing and acting on it. We are raised to believe that the only acceptable emotion is anger.

That sucks. All of it...and it complicates the process.

So...you have history with being manipulated, history with the repurcussions and the way it destroys lives. Friends who have been entraped and certainly from your posts experience with the devastation that follows the decision some one makes to take their own life.

I understand now what you are saying and why you are so passionatte about this issue.


Thank you...


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#175177 - 08/23/07 08:01 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
bryan your honesty is totaly cool and i think we have taken this discussion as far as it can go ,thanks for letting me ramble on about it and thanks for being so clear about why it might upset you . i'd rather talk about something else than cause anybody]to be triggerd ,good thread guys adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175265 - 08/23/07 11:31 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
3 convictions in the last two years? this is acceptable to you? perverted justice got 320 last year .


Exactly. It is not about protecting anybody, only getting results. A large number of convinctions does not prove that immoral, unethical groups like Perverted Justice is effective. It only demonstrates that their tactics succeed in getting the incriminating statements they want.

Quote:
if you have the stomach for it ,go to perverted justice website and read the chat logs...read it before you say somebody got lured in .


I have read their chat logs. All I can say is that just because Perverted Justice behind the veneer of "protecting" child does not change its volunteers' clearly perp-like behavior. I would never allow any volunteers from that groups or others like it anywhere near a child.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#175346 - 08/23/07 06:49 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: jacobtk]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175476 - 08/24/07 12:15 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
I think the show is also an example of horrible journalism, where the journalist violates every rule of true journalism, by involving himself in the story.

I don't watch this show much -- and I will say, the people they catch mostly seem like creeps. But in fact, they aren't catching those who are actually rapists -- and many that they catch seem to have a strange mental illness, in which it seems like they showed up, knowing what it was, possibly because they wanted to see themselves on TV.

I wonder if there are examples of people who were mentally ill, or mentally handicapped (i.e. very low IQ) who they played mind games with, long enough that they got them to respond in a way they wouldn't have in normal life.

That said, most of the guys are probably real creeps, on the verge of doing something very bad.

But that doesn't excuse the "good guys" from violating the constitution, using entrapment techniques, colluding with renegade journalists, etc.

I also think the fact that they do little to nothing to educate people about the laws in the areas they are doing the stings, shows a desire for show-biz, and a lack of desire for educating the public about what the law is regarding this behavior.

I think the tactics used have actually resulted in many lost convictions, i.e. prosecutors failed to press charges, because of lack of evidence that would hold up in court.

I also noticed that in a recent episode, half of the people pled innocent.

In everyday life, very very very few people pleed innocent to any crime.

If half of these guys pleed innocent on some of these shows, it is because the lawyers are wise to some serious legal faults in the tactics used in the stings.

That said, most of the guys are clearly nasty individuals who at the very least, need serious mental health treatment, at the very least.

But I wonder what real progress could be made if rather than spending so much money on the cameras, cameramen, etc, they spent this money testing rape kits against prisoner/offender DNA samples, to catch those who have already raped?

Oprah had a show several years ago, that exposed that while many police agencies are out spending their budgets chasing down marijuana, etc they are failing to spend funds needed to test these rape kits. Victims submit to these procedures, and many times they are just stored and never used.

A lot of time and money in law enforcement is used in chatrooms, etc approaching people who are NOT INTERESTED in illegal underage stuff.

I believe law enforcement has actually gone into gay community meetings, meetings of law abiding adults, and approached people with entrapment. These things don't work 99.999 times, because the people are rational adults, and aren't interested in the stuff being offered...but it nonetheless hurts their self esteem

I personally don't even go into chatrooms because of this. Several times years ago, I saw this stuff, and received messages like that - where people were identifying themselves as under age (15) and asking to get together for sex. I said I wasn't interested. I didn't know if I was personally being targeted (paranoia told me I must be being personally targeted - counselors said it was probably part of a larger sting in the area, and that the fact I wasn't interested shows I'm a good person)
But I think it could have been to go after gays.

Of course this could also have been a real person that age, but I doubt it - because I saw this type of stuff happen several times - sometimes with very similar wording, and I think it was some sort of sting trying to entrap consenting gay adults. Of course they probably do this in hetero chats too

But I could see how someone who wasn't interested could be harassed by this.
I found myself questioning why it happened, why me, etc, at a pretty young age, in my early and mid 20s, seeing those messages, I felt targeted. I didn't fall for their game, their entrapment, and I know well the laws, and respect them and wasn't looking to meet anyone that wasn't of age. -

But as a victim, who didn't really realize I was at the time,
and at that, myself a victim of child rape (I was molested when I was young) the fact that they were approaching people who had no interest, like myself, was in a way victimizing innocent people like me -- by sending weird chat messages.

But these people doing these stings have no appreciation for the fact that they could be victimizing many people, who have no interest in their sick insinuations -- just by sending strange messages in chat rooms or by instant messenger.

They don't care that they could be hurting or victimizing adults.
They are walking a very fine line, between trying to help the public, protect kids -- and doing the opposite by violating the law themselves, disrespecting our constitution, attempting to entrap people.

But it shows that either I was being targeted, or someone was casting a wide net, trying to entrap random people, probably the latter.
Of course, I also stopped talking to people in chat rooms because I ran across several people who seemed like they were looking to victimize adults too - and I didn't want to be harmed by some creep. Online chats are dangerous places.

The problem with this technique though is that it is wrong - and if taken to an extreme could entrap innocent people.

By the way, I heard that with the catch a predator show they sometimes only provide PARTIAL tran>


Edited by gay30something (08/24/07 12:45 AM)
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#175522 - 08/24/07 07:32 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i wanted to post this message from a former well respected member of this site who got so fed up with this protect the perp bullshit that he left

Researching boylovers? For gods sake, they should be fucking shot. How about research into what the victims want? Not what you offer, what we actually want? You dont give a shit do you? You offer 1 sized shoe and if it doesnt fit we have to walk barefoot.

This is morality and ethics gone mad with political correctness.



We come here for help, you want to tie us here, you want us to be weak and do what you say, to feel sorry for ourselves and woe is me, pity pity....

Well it doesnt fit with me, so I will be leaving forthwith.

Early next year I will be setting up my own site based in the UK ( which will have all that is offered here except WE WILL be able to fight back, it will be actively encouraged.

We will even teach you how to do so safely and legally so when you go to bed at night you can sleep easily knowing that you've done your bit.

Take it to them, dont sit back and wait for the next boy to be raped or murdered and then say "oh its a fucking pity that, what a bad man he is"

Try and stop it before it happens, heap on as much pressure, educate, spread the word.

please understand that this is not aimed at ms or the peope in charge ,it is just to show that we DO NOT HAVE TO BE MEEK AND MILD VICTIMS FOREVER.



Edited by shadowkid (08/24/07 07:34 AM)
_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175557 - 08/24/07 09:49 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Very confusing message. Don't know if it was directed at my post or the others.

In my post, I was pointing out that by violating the constitution, engaging in entrapping type of operations, not providing full "evidence" they are actually losing cases.

I myself am a victim of rapists, when I was a child. I do not think any rapist should get off the hook.

But I don't think resources should be wasted spending countless thousands of work hours in chat rooms - while ignoring rape kits with DNA evidence from people who were raped.

Now, as for the comment "going after boy lovers" not sure what this refers to, possibly someone else's comments.
Consenting gay adults in a public chatroom, who are seeking to chat with other consenting gay adults, are not "boy lovers", if you are referring to underage boys.
That's homophobia at its worst, trying to confuse pedophiles with gays.

Most pedophiles go after young girls, and by definition are going after underage people.

In the USA it is not illegal to be a homosexual, or a bisexual or a heterosexual for that matter. Sex is not illegal.

Sex with underage people, namely under the age of consent, or raping people is illegal.
Law enforcement needs to go after rapists. And when victims come forward, especially right after an incident, and a hospital and the victim goes to the trouble of collecting forensic evidence (rape kit) the victim should be confident that the information is used.

But in many cases it is not. It sits on a shelf for lack of budgeting, while money is wasted on fruitless stings that go after those who haven't committed a crime.

I see nothing politically correct about making this point.

The catch a predator series is very very controversial here in the USA.

It is also controversial because it pulls would be predators into a particular area, from far away places like a magnet. There is actually an uproar about that angle too. People afraid that it may bring rapists to their neighborhood.

The predator series as far as I know, mostly deals with heterosexuals anyway. Men going after what they believe are young girls, underage.

To the extent that they catch people who have this intention, that may be a good thing - but they do waste a lot of law enforcement resources chasing after people who ultimately get off free because prosecutors don't find enough evidence for a case.

Again, while those who were raped are sometimes put on the back shelf.

Now, as for what I said about public internet chatrooms and entrapment. What I've seen is that it is random harassment of law abiding citizens. I've heard of this happening to heterosexuals as well.

If they approach someone online, who isn't engaged in anything illegal, they are wasting resources and victimizing that person.

There is no legal constitutional basis for this in the USA, nor is it morally correct.

If they are simply targeting homosexuals -- or heterosexuals for that matter, who are looking to meet other consenting adults...then they are violating their duties and the freedom of democracy.

Clearly, they could simply watch these rooms and go after anyone asking for something illegal or underage.

Now, if you, or the subject of the post you repeated, believes that consenting adults seeking other consenting adults, who happen to be homosexual, should be researched, then that idea is fanatical at best. And it would show a severe prejudice at that. It is also anti-democratic, and in violation of laws and court rulings in the USA (and the UK for that matter, where homosexuality is not illegal either)

Perhaps you were only referring to people going after underage people, under the age of consent. In that case, of course they should stop that activity. Just don't cast a wide net.... that victimizes people who aren't engaging in that activity.

Period.

Again, though, not sure about the post, because Catch a Predator mostly deals with men going after young girls.

Why is it that they don't go after all those rapists in the Catholic (and other) churches? If they raided those churches, and secured the hidden files, with notes of the coverups for the past 30 or 40 years, they'd find a wealth of information on priests and ministers who raped children and are still in positions of authority.

I am a victim of these sickos.

I also happen to be gay.
I have a long term relationship with a very loving man. And our relationship has been damaged by memories of the fact that I was raped as a child.

Go after the rapists, not law abiding citizens.






Edited by gay30something (08/24/07 10:01 AM)
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#175558 - 08/24/07 09:56 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
P.S. I hope I didn't misunderstand the nature of the posting, but it certainly did seem to have a twist to it.

Perhaps there is a language or cultural barrier here - as the post mentions the UK

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#175628 - 08/24/07 07:00 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
Lazarus Offline
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Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Hey 30something;

What Shadowkid has done is quote an earlier post from a member here who rebelled against the 'protect the perp' mentality. I don't think it was directed at anything in your previous post.

I'm sensitive to the politically correct fuck-ups that seem to give these perverts more options than they deserve. But I'm also sensitive to the abuse of the consitiution which was designed to protect us all from the minions of our government, who in the name of righteousness feel that the end always justifies the means. I DO NOT agree with that philosophy.

As I said before, I think PJ is a double edged sword; if the guys who show up for their 'date' with an underaged kid were entrapped, enticed, lied to, cajoled, whatever... I don't care. If they would do it then they would do it elsewhere and they are predators. I say shame on them and they deserve what they got. Is it decietful? Yes. Is it productive? Yes, but less so than other means would be. Is it moral? Well, I've seen 14 yr old boys and girls flirt like you wouldn't believe, and I've always shut them down in the strongest possible way... but they are out there, exploring their sexuality and finding their power. The illusions that PJ uses to lure it's victims are not as rare or uncommon as one might think. So if these guys took the bait... I think it's fair to say that they would have taken the bait from a REAL 15 yr old...

It's not a perfect world, and it's a shame that a TV show that feeds the public's purient interests is the only way to finance this kind of sting operation. But I don't want them to have free reign; that's what the lawyers are for. Surely there must be a better way, but for the time being this is one way.

IMHO

Lazarus

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#175640 - 08/24/07 09:36 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
question?when did this turn into anything having to do with people being gay!!!!!!!!!!!!! no that has nothing to do with this and it sounds like heterophobia to me,heh dont hear that word very often do we? i am not gay ,but i lived with a gay couple for over a year . after my abuse and it was the only safe place i had ,so no this has nothing to do with being gay . also perverted justice does do the same sting using a boy. its a misunderstanding to think pj just goes to a town and sets up a sting ,its law enforcement that requsts their help! all the post i copied is for is to show that there are survivors who are not sitting on their ass waiting for somebody else to do something ,anything to stop child abuse. they are activly trying to help .and no body thats an upstanding citizen is going to get caught up in this. also it does not violate anybodys rights ,its been proven in court repeatedly, what d a is gonna use eveidence thats not leagal?im gonna go out on a limb here and just say that due to the severity of my own personal abuse ,i cannot fathom anybody thinking busting these sick bastards is wrong . i just dont get it,he broke my fucking fingers!raped me for 97 days day and nights, tried to beat me to death! so yeah i dont care what it takes i dont care if its leagal cause the only other alternitve is to just hunt them down and blow them away,and other than going to prison i see nothing wrong with doing that either!

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175704 - 08/25/07 11:17 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
I think what's happening here, with all due respect, is that as with all of us, Shadowkid has experienced horrific abuse. Therefore, he wants all abusers locked up at all costs.

But in my opinion, the reality is that wouldn't even happen in a police-state. And a police-state is something we as Americans and others in other democracies, would want to avoid.

Perverted Justice has lost many cases, because right in their shows, there are many times when they tell us that the prosectors didn't bring charges against some of the suspects.

This is because of the tactics used, entrapment, etc violating the constitution. These are dangerous practices that sometimes pull in innocent people in misunderstandings, framings, etc.

I am not saying that the subject on Catch a Predator are innocent. I think most of them at the very least, need some serious mental health treatment. Some of them deserve their sentences. But others, get off free, because the framework of the whole thing is wrong. It's based on showbiz, not law.

They never even tell the audience what the law is in the area they are doing the sting.

It's not educational, it is showbiz and fear mongering.

Btw, some communities don't want this show in their towns, because they are afraid it acts as a magnet and brings this stuff to their town.

So, I sympathize with Shadowkid on some level - but I certainly don't think entrapment or violating the constitution is the answer.

That's not protecting predators, it is using sound judgement and throwing resources after catching the bad guys.

It is very questionable for a police force to do what is done on catch a predator, because it wastes resources, hypersensationalizes things, casts too wide a net, while letting the criminals who are slick get away, AND it reveals law enforcement techniques.

In my opinion.

As for police forces who go online and send messages to people who are not looking for anything bad -- that is wrong. It victimizes people who may have been abused or may have mental health issues.

Yes, it is true, law abiding citizens are not usually going to fall for these things...... but they are victimized when they go looking to meet another consentual adult online, and they get scarey messages from undercovers instead.

I just think there are better, more thorough ways of going after the rapists. I really do.

And I think the best way would be for law enforcement to secure the secret files of the catholic church.
That would catch thousands of rapists.

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#175714 - 08/25/07 11:50 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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all abusers should be locked up .period

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175718 - 08/25/07 12:03 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: gay30something]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
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Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175722 - 08/25/07 12:30 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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what bugs me about this and yeah it is kinda like a dictator,is im being labled as somehow not as good as others because i dont think like they do. what about my rights? is it unreasonable to consider that i have damn good reasons for how i feel? am i a bad person cause i wont forgive and forget? is it abnormal to react to horrific abuse with a desire to even the score? its this attitude that lets abuse remain hidden .if i was 11 and came to you and said hes hurting me would i be told to remember that he has rights to? treatment?how do you treat a pedophile? what magic pill makes them stop? i've said it before perp gets busted ,perp gets therapy ,perp gets 3 meals a day ,perp gets a free place to live ,perp gets meds for depression ,while the victim dies in a back ally from an overdose cause he cant live with what was done to him,where is the justice in this system? victim cant get free therapy ,cant get a job cause he cant function ,ends up on the street cause the abuse prevents him from living a normal life. shadowkid has experienced horrific abuse and he wants all abusers locked up at all costs ,and your point is? that im a bad person?seems like the only god damn thing about me that is normal is my desire for revenge,who wouldnt want to make them pay? i would worry more if i didnt care or if i felt sympathy for the sick pigs that abuse,als im sure some of you have kids ,who will be the first one to allow their kid to go hang out with one of the innocent guys that got caught up in the trap that pj sets , maybe to prove your point you should hire one of those guys to baby sit YOUR CHILDREN!

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175737 - 08/25/07 01:16 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
what bugs me about this and yeah it is kinda like a dictator,is im being labled as somehow not as good as others because i dont think like they do.


I do not think you are not as good as others. I would hope I the same would be thought of me, but judging by what I have read, that is not the case. It does not really matter though. We simply have different moral standards. The reason I do not compromise on this is because I knew a boy who was a convicted sex offender. He confessed, served his time, went into treatment and was placed in the system. Late last year it was determined he had not actually committed any crime. Instead of accepting this, he killed himself. As far as anyone who agrees with Perverted Justice is concerned all that matters is that he confessed. They do not care how the police got him to do it.

That is the major difference in our thinking. I do not just care that it was gotten, but how it was gotten. Certainly that may be a result of my experiences, but those experience are quite irrelevant in this matter. All I am suggesting is that the methods many seem to enjoy can lead to serious mistakes. If those mistakes are acceptable to you, fine. I hope you never raise the ire of those who run such groups.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#175738 - 08/25/07 01:25 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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no your wrong i dont think that at all in fact i think its cool that we can talk about this without screamming at each other . will you let one of these guys sit with your kids? moral standards ?there agian it seems my standards are being seen as deficient.i have moral standards ,people dont fuck children ,people dont lock kids in a closet ,feed them dog food ,mentaly and physicaly abuse them ,why cany you apply your morality to the perp?why pick on the victim? what about the unwritten laws that say you do not do this shit to a child? morals?heh we are discussing the most imoral people ever! and what did perveted justice have to do with what happened to your friend? nothing, its the fucked up system that everybody says works so well! i dont want to keep the system in place that caused your friend to die ,you do

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175749 - 08/25/07 02:16 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
I did not mention his suicide to garner sympathy, only to indicate that outcome that you and others desire does occur. Are you not satisfied? Your standards are not deficient, only different. I agree that we are discussing the most immoral people: those who deceive. While I would not allow the guys on the show to watch my godson, I would not allow anyone from Perverted Justice to either. I am not inclined to allow strangers to watch him, but certainly not those with a penchant for deception. You asked what the group has to do with the boy I knew. I do apologize for being blunt, what do the guys on the show have to do with your abuse? They did not harm you and they are not even accused or suspected of doing anything like what was done to you. If you are going to say that they think like your perp or will eventually act on those thoughts, that is my reason for distrusting Perverted Justice as well.



Edited by jacobtk (08/25/07 02:17 PM)
_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#175760 - 08/25/07 03:01 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
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Post deleted by BJK



Edited by BJK (08/25/07 03:02 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175775 - 08/25/07 04:17 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
Lazarus Offline
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Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I've been watching this thread closely, and all of you make very good points and very strong arguments. I haven't spoken up in awhile because I was waiting to be convinced, one way or another. There is no perfect answer that I can see, and Adam and Jacob both make sense to me.

Bryan, I understand your feelings and also agree with everything you said, EXCEPT:
Originally Posted By: BJK

My argument is, simply put, that the majority of the people featured on PV are simply not perps.


They ARE perps, Bryan, because the showed up at (what they thought was) a kid's house for the purpose of having sex with (what they thought was) a kid. It was their intention that matters, and the fact that they were willing to act on that intent. I have no doubt that if they had found what they were expecting to find, they would have abused those children. That makes them guilty as hell, in my book.

I don't want to set aside anyone's constituational rights, but these perverts were not adults looking for other adults to have sex with, they were going to have sex with a minor. Some would say that they were pressured, cajoled and persuaded by the alledged 'minor', but I say 'who cares?' Kids these days really do that kind of stuff. They know the power the have over certain people, and they aren't shy about using that power. So it's a matter of protecting the kids from themselves, and as adults that is what we are supposed, make that OBLIGATED to do.

I do not feel sorry for these perps. I don't feel sorry that they are humiliated, prosecuted to the full extent of the law and hopefully spend significant time behind bars. We all know what happens to child molesters in jail... I think it serves them right, and I certainly hope it teaches them a lesson. Maybe it will make other perps and potential perps think twice before they do this kind of crap.

While it's true that PJ only targets a small percentage of child abusers (the ones that the kids don't know) and ignores the much bigger problem (of family or friendly abuse), I think it still serves a purpose. I wish we could find a way to put a sting out on family abusers too.

Would I let a member of PJ staff watch my kids? No, I don't think so. I think they are warped and twisted in their own minds as well, just in different ways than the perverts they are targeting. But they serve a purpose that I happen to believe is very important. They can be like viscious guard dogs, who may not be very likeable, but they serve a valuable purpose; the lesser of two evils. I'd rather have PJ doing what they are doing rather than let just one child be raped.

IMHO.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#175779 - 08/25/07 04:36 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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bj im not talking about you dude! not in any way .to me you seem to be about as honest as it gets ,and i suppose i would let you watch my kids . if i was a member of perverted justice would you let me watch yours? just like with the guys that get dragged in ,the people at pj are not hell bent on busting any and everybody! some or most of them are either survivors or family of survivors,should we not give them the samne consideration? do we judge all of them as fanatical nuts who dont care about kids only about their 15 minutes of fame? its people trying to make a difference and no one else is doing anything! do you think maybe the material on why people offend is lacking cause tthere is no reasonable explaination? also where do you get the information?from people who have spent their entire lives hiding their true feelings? luring perps in is deception? maybe so ,but it pales in comparrison to luring innocent kids into something that will destroy them , i suppose this is where we get to the , abuse excuse , i offended because i was abused myself. the ultimate deception ,using what they did as an excuse! i dont believe that many abusers were abused ,its an insult to the victim to even accept that excuse. to me an adult sending nude pics to someone he is convinced is a child is a perp ,asking that child to have sex is a perp , arranging a meeting with that child is a perp ,are we missing the fact that they do believe its a child ,weather or not it really is is irrelevent.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175785 - 08/25/07 05:02 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
gay30something Offline
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Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
I would slightly disagree with Bryan. I do think that are large number of the people (perpetrators) who show up to the stings on To catch... are guilty, or have the intention of having sex with underage girls.

But I do believe that there are potentially a number who are not guilty -- and this is proven by the fact (mentioned on the show itself) that prosecutors drop the charges against some of these men.

Also, the fact that more than half on one show pled innocent, showed that their lawyers saw significant legal flaws in the cases, to the point where they thought they might be found innocent.

The methods used are very questionable. But I think I'm repeating myself.

Don't get me wrong, some of the men who show up on that show make me feel very sick.

But it also makes me sick when the constitution is trampled in a rush to judgement, where some innocents could be put away for years and branded with a scarlet letter.

Also, we should remember, that these guys haven't actually had sex, or molested (unless some have done so elsewhere) --
they have simply typed incriminating sounding statements.

But why don't they provide full, uncensored tran>


Edited by gay30something (08/25/07 05:05 PM)
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#175815 - 08/25/07 06:13 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: Lazarus]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175832 - 08/25/07 07:07 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i think protecting perps is bullshit. think like me or its bullshit?nahh

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175841 - 08/25/07 07:52 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#175844 - 08/25/07 08:14 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
jacobtk Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: gay30something
Also, the fact that more than half on one show pled innocent, showed that their lawyers saw significant legal flaws in the cases, to the point where they thought they might be found innocent.


This is just a technical point, but a person cannot plead innocent. A person can only plead not guilty or guilty. In court proceedings, the default plea entered is not guilty. It does not necessarily demonstrate a weakness in the evidence provided. However, there are not nearly as many convictions resulting "stings" like the ones Perverted Justice sets up as there are charges file. That implies that there are several legal issues involved--which include the methods in which the "evidence" was gathered--that result in either mistrials (which includes a dismissal of the case and charges) or the jury/judge finding the defendant not guilty.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#175858 - 08/25/07 09:49 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I've been watching and reading this thread with interest and I've learned a lot from all of you. I don't want to repeat a lot of things I have said already, but I would like to highlight a few things that have been said and then comment.

Let me begin by saying that I respect all the people I am quoting here, and I know that in some respects I am quoting out of context. Please forgive me for that and let me assure you that I don't mean anything personally - I'm just trying to go from these statements to a few points I think are important.

And Adam, I know where you are coming from, don't I? We were both formed in a similar hell. I respect your right to your anger and opinions, but I hope you will hear me out and not feel you are being picked on.

So anyway, here are a few quotations I have taken from this thread:

Originally Posted By: Lazarus
And civil liberties be damned, I don't care if they were entrapped....In this case, I think the end justifies the means.


Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if one potential perps is caught then yeah its a good thing...nobody else is doing a damn thing to stop these sick pedos.


Originally Posted By: healingpartner
These are people you have to meet at their own level.... I have no pity for them. none. I don't care what needs to be done. They need to be stopped....I have seen too much pain here to give a damn about the right of perps.


Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if you wanna catch a predator you gotta use what they feed on ,then when they start to circle you gun them down.


Originally Posted By: shadowkid
its cool to protect peoples rights ,but dont lose sight of whose rights your fighting for


Originally Posted By: shadowkid
i just think your on the wrong side ,cause its kids lives at stake not some friggen pedos civil rights


Originally Posted By: shadowkid
i wanted to post this message from a former well respected member of this site who got so fed up with this protect the perp bullshit that he left....


Originally Posted By: Lazarus
What Shadowkid has done is quote an earlier post from a member here who rebelled against the 'protect the perp' mentality.


I could have included more, but this is enough to work with. And as I said, please bear in mind I'm not trying to pick on anyone.

The first point I'd like to make is that we are all on the same side here. There is no "protect the perps mentality" on this thread or on Male Survivor. In all honesty, I'd like to say it's pretty unfair to take arguments for the rule of law and misrepresent them as reflecting a pro-pedophile mentality. I know passions run hot with this topic, so okay, but perhaps we can recall that everyone commenting here knows exactly what the horrors of child abuse are all about.

My second point has to do with something I commented on earlier, and which John (WalkingSouth) got to before me. And that is the clear fact that by highlighting and legitimating the old worn-out "stranger danger" myth, Perverted Justice is misrepresenting the true nature and danger of child abuse on an absolutely massive scale - it's just staggering. And for what? Not for us, or for future generations of children, but for profits and power and nothing more. Anyway, that's already been said. What I'd like to do here is ask for a show of hands: Of those of us who have commented on this thread so far and shown an interest in it, how many of us were actually abused by a total stranger in a way similar to the scenarios PJ is setting up? That is, a boy who meets a stranger on the Internet and then invites him to meet somewhere. I bet I already know the answer: not a single one of us. Right there is the stark reality of how the issue is being distorted and misrepresented.

I'd like also to come back to the comments made about protecting perps and so on. I do understand that emotions run hot on this subject, and some of you have actually said how heated up you were when you commented. That's fine, and I'm okay with that. But still, the comments bear a bit of discussion.

What's at issue here is not the rights of perps at all - that has nothing to do with what others and I have been talking about. The key issue is the rule of law. In a democracy, society holds together based on the rule of law and the idea is that everyone is equal before the law. Everyone means everyone, and that has to be carved in stone. Once you begin to make exceptions, regardless of how noble-sounding and emotionally satisfying they may be, the whole idea of law itself is subverted.

If we say that child abuse is a terrible crime (and of course I agree it is) and therefore the ends justify the means when it comes to pedophiles, well, then who else gets to jump on that bandwagon? Do we throw away the rule of law when we are looking for murderers, rapists, pimps, and drug dealers? Why not throw in gang members, car thieves, burglars, and so on. Where does it stop? Law by its very nature has to be rigid and absolute: you either have it or you don't.

The way PJ operates skates right on the thin ice at the edge of the law, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of the convictions they win eventually get thrown out on appeal. But by analogy what they are doing justifies all sorts of similar vigilante actions. For example, suppose my little brother is killed on his bike by a drunk driver. I am (rightly) furious at drunk drivers, so I decide to go out to bars and encourage likely looking people to drink to excess and then get in their cars to drive home. I buy some guy shots and call for doubles for him even if he objects and says he's had too much already. Then I escort him out to his car and encourage him to drive. If the guy says no I'll call a cab, I say, "Oh what the hell, your house is just up the road - you look okay." Then as soon as he takes off I call the cops. Exactly what does that contribute to the problem of drunk driving, and is that how the problem should be addressed? How many convictions I get this way is beside the point.

I don't know who it is who left the site over this thread, and I would say again it's a gross mistake and unfair to sling around accusations of "protect the perps mentality". Apparently that guy has in mind to set up a website where he will encourage vigilante action similar to what PJ does in the USA. If he does, that will involve the same problems I see in PJ.

Adam, you mention that no one is doing a damn thing about child abuse. I understand and respect your feelings, but that statement is wrong. These days the majority of pedophiles who talk to kids on the net are actually talking to police operatives! These are trained police officers who know what they are doing and what will hold up in court. There are active programs to combat pedophilia in every state and also in most western European countries, and the FBI has at least one major task force (I think there are more) set up specifically to investigate inter-state aspects of this activity. And it's not just the police. Schools have programs to warn kids about staying safe, educators have written age-appropriate books for kids (this is extremely difficult to do, by the way), and youth organizations have been working to address the weaknesses that allowed perps to infiltrate them in the past. In the Boy Scouts, which is how I was abused, all leaders are now vetted and trained, there are strict guidelines for relations between the boys and their leaders, and the Scout handbook now comes with a CD on staying safe and all new boys are shown a video on the subject. Hazing and humiliating "initiation" practices, such as stripping a boy naked and staking him out on the ground, are gone for good.

Sure, it's true that lots more needs to be done, but it's also true that things have changed dramatically since the sexual abuse of boys was first recognized as an issue in the mid-1980s.

I go into all this not because I need to sit up arguing over it at 2:00 am ;\) , but because I think there are better ways to do things in a democratic society. If we think a crime isn't getting the attention it deserves, we can become activists for our cause: writing letters, speaking out, addressing public groups, telling our stories, and keeping the problem in the public eye. We can campaign for better laws and stiffer sentencing, and if we don't get what we want we can turn the issue into a campaign issue and get more responsive people elected to office. That's how things work in a democracy, and that's how the major social changes of the 20th century were brought about: universal suffrage, civil rights, trade unionism, etc.

If people want to get involved, hey, there are already a million possibilities. Quite apart from the fact that there are always committee openings here on Male Survivor, I will just speak for the UK. Hotlines need trained volunteers, the NSPCC needs support, groups like Shy Keenan's Phoenix Survivors can always use people, and support groups for survivors would be welcome almost anywhere in the country. The results that such groups can achieve are demonstrated by Dave Lloyd, one of our retired mods. Chris Mallon in Ireland and Duncan Fairhurst in England have published their stories, and Duncan's book in particular has been a huge success.

It can of course be argued what the priorities should be: on stopping the perps or on dealing after the fact with the kids they harm. But the last thing we need are self-important vigilantes using legal loopholes to cash in on a terrible world tragedy - of that I am very sure.

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#175864 - 08/25/07 09:56 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: jacobtk]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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bj this post is becomming very hard for me cause i do not want to offend you ,but what you said up there?are you serious?
Had that child been as persistant as the folks on Perverted Justice............

I don't want to think about that.

dude its like saying if you had done it it woulda been the kids fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter how friggin persistent the kid was you still should say no! thats what im taLKING About this whole thread!!! the same mentality says its wrong to trap perps. please dude this is not personal ,but what you said is like earthshattering to me ,it woulda been the kids fault.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175866 - 08/25/07 10:04 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: roadrunner]
healingpartner Offline
Guest

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 407
Intellectually I understand what you are saying Larry.

But I guess I will simply have to say I respectfully disagree. You will have your opinion and I will have mine.

I still love and respect you, but can't agree. I will no longer visit this thread as I feel it has run its course for me.

I was going to write more, but I need to not throw gas on the fire.


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#175871 - 08/25/07 10:24 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#175872 - 08/25/07 10:26 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: BJK
If an adult impersonates a child and lures me into committing such an act, then that adult has made me a victim.


Exactly. I couldn't agree more.


m


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#175889 - 08/25/07 11:11 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Bryan,

I understand your dilemma and the pressures/urges you have to deal with. I applaud you for your success and your comittment. What you do with your life (and what you resist doing) is a true reflection of your character and of your worth as a human being.

But if you succumb to those urges, if your boy had been more persuasive and you had given in, you would be as guilty as any perp... maybe even more than some because you really know the hurt you would be causing. Understanding why, and feeling sympathy for your situation does not excuse anything. If your boy had begged for it, does not excuse anything. You are the adult, you have the experience and the intellect and the obligation to say 'NO' in the strongest terms possible.

Bryan, I'm not blaming you for your feelings; I think they are completely understandable. I have felt similar feelings. But thinking about something and actually doing something are two totally different things. If the guys on PJ had just talked about their fantasies, there would be little to prosecute them for (maybe contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or some such), but to actually arrange a meeting and show up with the intention to abuse a minor is tantamount to abuse. If it were you on the wrong side of that sting, I wouldn't have any sympathy for you either. I'm sorry you have to be on your guard and therefore might exclude yourself from some otherwise harmless and rewarding experiences, but if you can't control yourself, you are a danger to the children in our society and should be treated accordingly.

I will cry with you in relief that you didn't destroy two lives that night. I am proud of you. You have to stay firm in your committment not to act on this fantasy, or whatever it is. There is too much at stake to do otherwise, for you and for the children.

I know you are a good man and you wouldn't hurt anybody. This discussion was not about you in particular, but you showed us that our perps have their own deamons to deal with. I hope you will stay strong no matter what the temptation, because the bottom line is that there is no excuse for abusing a child. Not for you, and not for the guys on PJ who succumb to temptation. Whether you agree with the methods or not, the guys who failed the test and showed up for their 'appointments' are pedophiles, not only in spirit but in fact as well. They deserve society's wrath and all the pain that comes crashing down on them. And the fact that PJ broadcasts their humiliation may be purient, but maybe it will make some other people who might consider doing the same thing to think twice about it. I don't see how any of the guys who showed up can claim innocence. That is bullshit.

Bryan, I'm sorry. You have put a sympathietic human face on our abusers, and explained how they might have gotten where they were when they abused us. While I can feel sympathy for your struggle, I cannot feel any sympathy for the guys who failed the test that you passed. I also cannot tell you how proud, and grateful I am that you passed the test. The true test of a man is not in the obstacles he has faced, but in how he has overcome those obstacles. You have done well, my friend, and I wish you continued strength and courage.

With warmest regards,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#175898 - 08/25/07 11:45 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Oh, and Larry; I appreciate the sensibility you always bring to a subject, this one included. When I was abused was before the Internet, so the circumstances aren't exactly the same, but I was abused by a stranger who might have had second thoughts if a show like Perverted Justice had been running on TV at the time. Maybe, maybe not.

I'm not advocating that we should take away anybody's civil rights; that's what the lawyers are for. The perps on PJ got themselves into this mess, and the criminal justice system will sort it all out. Whether it was a child or an adult posing as a child is a moot point to me; the perps THOUGHT they were talking to a child, and that's all that matters.

Everybody has choices to make. If you did take me out and get me drunk and put me into my car, you would be complicit but I would be guilty. I am an adult, and I am responsible for my actions. If I go to Decadence in New Orleans next weekend, and dress like a slut and act like a slut and someone mistakes me for a slut, who am I to blame?

One last point; many of these perps on PJ get off during their trials because well=intentioned juries are misled by smart lawyers into believing that the perp's rights were abused, and since there was no actual 'victim', that becomes the focal point of the trial. Don't tell me those guys were 'coerced' into doing something they wouldn't otherwise have done. The usual legalese regarding entrapment doesn't apply because a minor child is not legally capable of entrapping an adult. As adults, we are supposed to know better.

I guess that's all I have to say on the matter. I know some of us here will not agree, and it may be time to put this to rest and agree to disagree. I'm glad that there are people agruing both sides of this, because that's what makes this democracy work. I respect your right to disagree, and if you are more successful in convincing everyone that your opinion is more right than mine, I will also accept that. I have great respect for everyone who had contributed to this debate. We don't have to agree to get along and work towards our common goal.

Best regards,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#175991 - 08/26/07 11:23 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
want to clarify ,the person who left the site did so long ago not cause of this thread and im getting out now cause nobody listens to what i say anyway except to point out that im just some angry guy that wants revenge. also im expected to understand that maybe all the guys that got caught in the sting were not pedos ,but no body wants to understand that most of the people who work at pj are people like us!fathers whose sons were destroyed just like we were and they had two choices ,kill the sick pigs that did it or do something like pj ,victims who have been powerless to do anything because of the PERPS NEED TREATMENT MENTALITY , working with law enforcement to put a dent in the fucking epedemic of abuse is not something to be ashamed of! do you believe that oh say the dallas police department ,asked pj to help to make money? to get fame?shit that donnt even make sense! and bj you didnt answer my question would you let me watch your kids? if i said i was a member of pj would i be booted from the site ?should i be? i did not misunderstand the comment about if the kid had been more persistent ,i appluad the fact that you resisted the urge ,but the statement made was if the kid had been more persistent i would have done it ,ie it would have been the kids fault ,that kind of thinking has got to change! and i want to point out that im not picking on any individual here ,im also surprised that out of 4000+ victims here only a few have weighed in on this subject,why ?i think its because being active in the prevention of child abuse is seen as something bad ,bj i think your courage and comitment to healing is amazing ,but dude you are one in a million for every guy that resists the urge there are 100 who dont .to me if i see an adult who has shown a desire to be with a child ,even gone so far as to try to meet ,and an 11 year old kid and both are drowning in a flood and i can only save one? well im going in after the kid .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#175998 - 08/26/07 12:27 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
I have no real sympathy for the men who get ensnared in PJ's net. I just wish PJ would concentrate their efforts where the problem really lies.

In agreement with Larry, I believe they are skating on the razors edge of the law. Their skate often falls on the wrong side of it, and they probably loose or will loose a substantial portion of their convictions as a result. How much better would it be if they operated totally within the law and were able to have a near 100% conviction rate with little or no overturn on appeal? In essence much of the money poured into this project is being wasted when it would not have to be. To me that is a travesty. I'd much rather see greater return for the dollars spent.

_________________________
ďLifeís journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ĎHoly ____Ö! What a ride!íĒ ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#176009 - 08/26/07 01:27 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: WalkingSouth]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
They obviously have a good intention, which is to stop people from raping young girls.

But the show-biz aspect gets the best of the show. Who knows, also, how much NBC edits things for drama.
Sometimes vital things may be lost in the editing room as well.

_________________________
gay30something

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#176194 - 08/27/07 01:47 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Adam,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
im getting out now cause nobody listens to what i say anyway except to point out that im just some angry guy that wants revenge.


Personally speaking, I don't think of you in this way at all. I see you as a passionate and committed advocate for CSA victims and survivors and I think that's great. Yes, you are angry, but you have a right to that anger and I don't think anyone is denying that.

But I don't see that anger as defining you. What defines you as a survivor, so far as I can see without ever having met you, is your compassion for innocent kids, your integrity and honesty about who you are and what you think, and your sense of humor.

Actually I don't think anyone else posting in this thread sees you as an angry revenge-seeker either. We have differences of opinion, of course, but that's to be expected on any crucial topic.

At the end of the day, Adam, we are all, as I said, on the same side and want the same thing: safety for kids and justice for those who have been abused. We may differ on how to get from A to B, but we don't differ on the need to get there.

Much love,
Larry

PS: My kids are all grown up now, but if they were still little I would not only allow you to babysit them, I would ask you to do so and consider myself lucky if you agreed. \:\)



_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#176196 - 08/27/07 01:53 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Lazarus]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Ric,

Originally Posted By: Lazarus
When I was abused was before the Internet, so the circumstances aren't exactly the same, but I was abused by a stranger who might have had second thoughts if a show like Perverted Justice had been running on TV at the time. Maybe, maybe not.


Good point. I didn't think of that, and of course, most of us would have been abused before the time of the Internet. I would just ask, then, if there are any others among us who were introduced into abuse by strangers.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#176201 - 08/27/07 02:08 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: healingpartner]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Lorie,

Originally Posted By: healingpartner
Intellectually I understand what you are saying Larry. But I guess I will simply have to say I respectfully disagree. You will have your opinion and I will have mine.

I still love and respect you, but can't agree. I will no longer visit this thread as I feel it has run its course for me.

I was going to write more, but I need to not throw gas on the fire.


Well, I respect your view as well and I understand what you're saying and why you feel as you do. Disagreement on a loaded issue is always going to occur, I think, and in fact it's the honest exchange of views that gets us somewhere new, to something better. Contributing to a discussion isn't throwing gas on the fire just because the discussion is a passionate one. If you have more to say I hope you will post it.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#176261 - 08/27/07 01:01 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: roadrunner]
gay30something Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 26
Loc: New England, USA
Article in New York Times that shows advertisers are staying away from To Catch a Predator...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/business/media/27predator.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

_________________________
gay30something

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#176269 - 08/27/07 01:35 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: gay30something]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
All this arguing over the legal aspects would be a moot point if the police weren't involved in this. If PJ only used public exposure and shame, and ran the show JUST LIKE THEY DO NOW, without any police or court time being used up, they would accomplish just as much, I think.


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#176402 - 08/27/07 10:01 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: Hauser]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
If you want to see a really effective and powerful alternative to the PJ hype and crap, check out the website of BACA, "Bikers against Child Abuse", mentioned by Adam earlier on this thread: http://www.bacausa.com/

Check out especially their wonderful "kids area".

If you don't have time to get into the site, here's their statement on how they work:

How BACA Works

Bikers Against Child Abuse, Inc. (BACA) is organized with a central contact person to receive calls from referring agencies and individuals. A recognized, authorized agency with which the child has had contact determines that the child is still frightened by his or her environment. The agency representative contacts BACA, or refers the individual to contact BACA and the name and address of the child is given to our BACA/Child Liaison. The Liaison determines that the case is legitimate, meaning that the authorities have been contacted, and the case in being processed within the system. The Liaison contacts the family and an initial ride is organized to meet the child at their home or in some other location. The entire BACA chapter rides to meet the child and he/she is given a vest with a BACA patch sewn on the back. The child is free to wear the vest or not, and we support their decision. The child is also given bumper stickers, and other gifts that are generally donated by the public. These initial visits generally last about a half an hour.

Following this initial contact, the child is given the name and number of two BACA members residing geographically closest to them, who then become the childs primary contact person(s). Prior to becoming the primary contacts for the child, the bikers are cleared for participation by clearing an extensive background check, have ridden with the Chapter for at least a year, and have received special instructions from the Licensed Mental Health Professional. Anytime the child feels scared and feels the need for the presence of his new BACA family, the child may call upon these bikers to go to the childs house and provide the necessary reassurance to feel safe and protected. BACA members and supporters also support the children by: providing escorts for them if they feel scared in their neighborhoods; riding by their homes on a regular basis; supporting the children at court and parole hearings; attending their interviews, and; staying with the children if they are alone and frightened. The BACA members never go to the childs house alone and never without the knowledge or permission of the parents. Our mission is not to be permanently engaged as the childs power. Our mission is to help the children and their families learn how powerful they can be. Our presence will be available as long as the child needs us. BACA also holds other functions for the children such as Bar-B-Ques, and parties.

And their creed:

BACA Creed

I am a member of Bikers Against Child Abuse. The die has been cast. The decision has been made. I have stepped over the line. I wont look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still.

My past has prepared me, my present makes sense, and my future is secure. Im finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tamed visions, mundane talking, cheap giving, and dwarfed goals.

I no longer need pre-eminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I dont have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded, or rewarded. I now live by the faith in my works, and lean on the strength of my brothers and sisters. I love with patience, live by prayer, and labor with power.

My fate is set, my gait is fast, my goal is the ultimate safety of children. My road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions are tried and true, my Guide is reliable, my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, deluded, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity. I wont give up, shut up, let up, until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up, and showed up for all wounded children. I must go until I drop, ride until I give out, and work till He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no problem recognizing me, for He will see my BACA backpatch and know that I am one of His. I am a member of Bikers Against Child Abuse, and this is my creed.

Chief
Founder, Bikers Against Child Abuse, Inc.



Edited by roadrunner (08/28/07 05:38 AM)
_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#176403 - 08/27/07 10:08 PM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: roadrunner]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
larry i mentioned baca about a week ago on this post ,heh nobody hears me huh?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#176425 - 08/28/07 12:15 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Just for the record, I read and noticed the earlier post on BACA, Adam! \:\)

_________________________
ďLifeís journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ĎHoly ____Ö! What a ride!íĒ ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#176427 - 08/28/07 12:23 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: WalkingSouth]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
heh thanks guess im not invisible after all !

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#176428 - 08/28/07 12:23 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
could just be im on the wrong side?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#176432 - 08/28/07 01:01 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
I'm not sure there is a right side to this debate. I don't seem to quite fall into either camp on this one myself, and I guess I have to be OK with that. The alternative to being OK with it is rather unappealing to me! lol

John

_________________________
ďLifeís journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ĎHoly ____Ö! What a ride!íĒ ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#176478 - 08/28/07 05:31 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
larry i mentioned baca about a week ago on this post ,heh nobody hears me huh?


Absolutely not. It was your comment that reminded me of BACA, but see the time signature on the post? 10:00 pm? That's 3:00 am here in the UK! As I was rereading the post I realized I forgot to mention you and planned to do that, but I was so tired that by the time I finished I had forgotten again!

My apologies, and please see the edited version. I'm the opposite of a vampire - I work much better in the daylight. lol

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#176479 - 08/28/07 05:37 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Adam,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
could just be im on the wrong side?


Nope! You are on the side where you feel right and justice lie, and I think you should continue just as you are. Your views are clear, honest and right to the heart of the matter. I read everything you write with interest, and I have learned so much from discussions where you and I differ on something.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#176487 - 08/28/07 07:19 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Post deleted by BJK

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#176489 - 08/28/07 08:00 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: BJK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i think whats cool is we do disagree ,and maybe at some point we strongly disagree ,and we all want to stand by what we believe ,but in the end this whole post just brought us all closer,closer to understanding each other ,closer in lots of way cause bottom line is we all want to help stop kids gettung hurt.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#176496 - 08/28/07 08:30 AM Re: To Catch a Predator - Rolling Stone Mag [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Adam,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
bottom line is we all want to help stop kids gettung hurt.


Yep, and I SOOOO wish I had gotten into cycles when I was younger. I would have gotten into BACA in a big way. \:\)

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
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