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#172422 - 08/10/07 03:41 PM Therapists?
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
Got a huge pissed off weight I'm carrying right now...

I'm trying to find a T here in Phoenix that specializes
in MALE CSA...and all i am finding so far is male/female
and a lot that help both the abused and the abuser...

I'm not even remotely comfortable w/ that last one, in
fact I find myself very pissed about it...its like they
are riding the fence...I understand the abusers are sick
twisted individuals and need these services but for these
places to offer those services to both sides of the coin
seriously pisses me off...how can they do that?..





Edited by Frog (08/10/07 03:42 PM)
_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172433 - 08/10/07 04:00 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Frog,

The problem with abusers is that so many of them are serial offenders; that is, they go for one boy after another. The man who abused me, for example, was a Scout leader and a friend of mine (also abused) and I sat down once and figured that he may have got through half the boys in the troop. Some have abused hundreds over their lifetime. So the first purpose of therapy for abusers is to get them away from their perpetrator habits. An abuser who doesn't get help and is just thrown in jail will get out one day soon and perhaps just start all over again.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#172438 - 08/10/07 04:35 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
How can these therapists treat both the abused and the abuser
at the same practice? Isn't that dangerous...I know
how ANGRY I am...if I found out my T was also treating
an abuser I would FREAK...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172439 - 08/10/07 04:38 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
hideout Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 84
Loc: michigan
frog, you have to remember that if an abuser is seeing a therapist willingly they are trying to get help
abusing is a big problem, some people cant control it
there is no excuse for it and it is wrong, i almost killed the person who did it to me, still want to
but think about it in retrospect


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#172440 - 08/10/07 04:45 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: hideout]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
I hear your point...atleast they are getting help...they
are human beings right?

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172441 - 08/10/07 04:49 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
hideout Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 84
Loc: michigan
yup:)


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#172482 - 08/10/07 07:12 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Frog,

Originally Posted By: Frog
How can these therapists treat both the abused and the abuser at the same practice? Isn't that dangerous...I know how ANGRY I am...if I found out my T was also treating an abuser I would FREAK...


A therapist who treats abusers isn't doing so with the idea of excusing what they have done. The aim is to reduce the chances that the abuser will re-offend and to remove this risk from the community.

In fact, from what I have heard an abuser gets a pretty rough time from the T, in that the T expects him to acknowledge what he has done, understand the catastrophic harm he has caused, and take 100% responsibility.

An abuser isn't instructed, for example, on how to seek forgiveness. He's told this can only come if the survivor wants to forgive him, and if that happens he should regard it as the most amazing gift in the world. Even then, he has to understand that the survivor has the right to withdraw his forgiveness at any time. If the abuser complains "My son won't even take my calls", the T doesn't pity him; he tells him, "Of course not. What do you expect after what you have done?"

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#172485 - 08/10/07 07:18 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
That helps thank you...

I just don't feel comfortable w/ a T who is willing to
treat both sides...although it does say a lot about the
T's heart....how much compassion and understanding would
that T have to have to see it from both sides and treat
both sides...

I may have to reconsider my first thoughts on this...
thanks RoadRunner for stimulating my mind on this
topic...you ROCK...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172492 - 08/10/07 07:26 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Frog,

I'm glad you made this comment:

Originally Posted By: Frog
I just don't feel comfortable w/ a T who is willing to treat both sides...


That's absolutely okay, bro! YOU have to decide how you feel about your T and whether you are comfortable with him. If something doesn't feel right, well, it doesn't feel right and you have to find a solution. In therapy your priority has to be your own issues with the abuse, not issues with the T, so in your case I would say working with a T who treats both survivors and abusers may not be a good idea. I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise. I was just trying to provide information on what actually goes on (so far as I know) when a T is working with an abuser.

For the record, I would have to say that 2 months ago I thought exactly as you do in your post here. Then I began reading a book manu>
_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#172580 - 08/11/07 09:01 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5781
Loc: Lyons, CO USA
Larry is referring to my book. It is the first one written (to my knowledge) that brings the experience of working with abusers to help survivors understand the con that the abuser put on them way back when.

I've been working in the sexual abuse field for nearly 30 years, with adult and adolescent abusers and male survivors. There have been survivors as well as partners who cannot understand that a therapist can work with both populations and not be contaminated or "take sides".

I take the side that abuse is wrong, harmful and completely unexcusable. I demand accountability from my abuser clients and don't accept excuses.

My work with survivors makes me a better therapist with abusers, to help sensitize them to the damage they've done with the primary goal of never abusing again.

My work with abusers helps me work with survivors who have been set up and conned by the abusers. It helps identify and facilitate changes in the belief systems that survivors frequently have of being responsible somehow for the abuse. It also helps dispell the myths that many survivors hold onto that keeps them stuck and living in fear and/anger.

More later.

Ken

_________________________
Blissfully retired after 35 years treating sexual abuse

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#172590 - 08/11/07 11:04 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
Thank you Ken and RoadRunner...I will entertain this
a little more and possibly consider taking on one
of these T's w/ a similar approach as you have described...
Again Thank you...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172593 - 08/11/07 11:12 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Frog,

All of that being said...and it certainly sounds cool...I wouldn't see a therapist that treats abusers either. Beyond the moral or ethical considerations...wouldn't ya always be wondering if the guy going in or coming out before or after you was an abuser? Or, would they be wondering if I was?

Nope...thank you very much...not me...you get to choose, you get to decide...if you do not like the color of the guys shoes you get to decide what you want or don't.

Ya don't get to work both sides of the fence...I think your original assesment was accurate.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172595 - 08/11/07 11:15 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: ttoon
Frog,

Beyond the moral or ethical considerations...wouldn't ya always be wondering if the guy going in or coming out before or after you was an abuser? Or, would they be wondering if I was?


WOW....I was thinking about that very same thought when I started
writing this thread...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172599 - 08/11/07 11:32 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
what bothers me about this is ,do i want to open myself up to a t who can then use what i told him to deal with a perp? like telling the perp that the thing that scares victims the most is confronting the perp? or telling them the things that trigger victims?it gives me the feeling that we are like lab rats being studied to help the very people who caused it to begin with. if an offender requests therapy and hes in jail well he gets therapy and its free!or even worse its paid for by people like us! saw a post here today where the guy cant even find a therapist that deals with male csa. seems like there is a hell of a lot more help for the stinking bastards that hurt us than there is for us. im not attacking anyone that tries to help perps ,but i do believe that they cant be helped ,they are the best actors and they can play people including therapists ,deep inside of them is an animal and no one can get to that part of them .i mean cmon these people know its wrong they know they can be caught and locked up ,does that stop them ?no cause they are not normal they aint gonna respond to anything normal people can do . they perpertrate the most horrible crime ever and if they dont care when they are doing it they aint gonna care later that they did it.how does a t decide that a perp is reformed?that he wont offend again?just because he says so?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#172600 - 08/11/07 11:37 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: shadowkid]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Uh-huh,

Rape used to be a Capital Offense...it still should be...there is no reform...no punitive action required...only corrective...and my opinion on that would take me outside the boundaries of this particular forum.

I agree with you adam, wholeheartedly.

Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#172601 - 08/11/07 11:41 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Frog,

I know how triggering this issue can be, and it may take you a while to work through it. Your own sense of safety is VERY important, after all. As kids we learned the unfortunate lesson that our safety didn't matter, that our needs didn't matter, the only thing that mattered was the needs of the pervert. It's not surprising that you would be feeling the way you do on this subject.

If I were in your shoes and could only find a therapist who also treated offenders, I think I'd be desperate enough for treatment that I'd bite the bullet and start therapy. In fact my current T treats offenders. I didn't know it when I started, but found out later in the process. The fact that he treats offenders I believe actually makes him more highly qualified to help me out because he has been able to explain things to me in a way that perhaps another T would not be able to.

Also, he never treats offenders in the same time blocks as victims, ie different days of the week or victims in the AM and offenders in the PM with a break between. He's VERY cognizant of the victims need for an atmosphere of safety. Also, since he also treats adolescent victims he cannot have them in that close proximity to offenders because of the parole conditions placed on some offenders.

Bottom line is that I'd urge you not to necessarily turn down the possibility of therapy over this issue, but also to take your time in trying to locate a therapist who you are comfortable with. You'll eventually find the right match tho you may have to kiss a few toads first.

Lots of love,

John


_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172602 - 08/11/07 11:48 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i dont wanna even sit in the same room where these animals have sat ,was some perp sitting in the chair that im in now? if a t tries to explain why a perp would molest all its doing is making excuses for their actions. nothing that comes from reasearch on perps is worth a damn, they are experts at hiding and lying ,thats how they get to be respected members of the comunnity, no one knows you know? if you corner an animal it might lay down and play dead ,till you turn your back on it then it rips your heart out

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#172608 - 08/11/07 12:21 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: shadowkid]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
It is precisely this kind of attitude that perpetuates the very atmosphere that allows the abuse of children to go on.

Everytime an abuser uses the excuse that he or she was abused it is a slap in the face to every survivor on the planet.

If I found out my therapist treated abusers...even though I've been seeing him for two years now...I'd walk out.

There would be absolutely no integrity...no trust there at all.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172609 - 08/11/07 12:24 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: shadowkid]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona

I do want help from a T...but, big big big but, I'm
not willing to put myself into a situation that I
may do something because of my ANGER and RAGE...I can
barely contain it now..I've got good days and very dark days
were I know I could kill and not even blink or lose
sleep over it...

If I cannot find a T that specializes in MALE CSA
then I guess I'm stuck w/ the cookie cutter approach
that I'm running into at this time w/ the walking the
fence or the female/male/child approach I'm seeing
in advertisements...

It's very discouraging to me to see this...it's like
they are trying to just get my money...no real heart...
like they are the corner convience store or something,
just offering a hodge podge of services to the general
public for a huge price, "..they will pay if they want to
be fixed" mentality...

I agree w/ shadowkid..they get the services for free
and I'm stuck paying the price for both of us to get help
...double jeopardy for me...adding insult to injury..
why do I have to pay for their mistakes?

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172654 - 08/11/07 05:50 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave,

I'm just picking on points being raised here on this thread, and I'd like to say I'm not advocating a "give perps a break" position. I just think we should be clear about what does and doesn't happen.

Anyhoo:

Originally Posted By: ttoon
I wouldn't see a therapist that treats abusers either. Beyond the moral or ethical considerations...wouldn't ya always be wondering if the guy going in or coming out before or after you was an abuser? Or, would they be wondering if I was?


I have to say I was in therapy for 18 months in Germany and then 20 months in Oxford and it never occurred to me to wonder were there perps in the waiting room or did anyone think I was a perp. You could tell who the new people were because they were more nervous, but other than that the issue didn't come into my head. I did ask MY T if she worked with perps and she said no she never had; but there were 7-8 other staff psychologists there and I can't say who they did and didn't work with.

At the end of the day, you have to bear in mind that most Ts don't take just abuse cases; they have lots of other types of problems to deal with in addition to CSA. No patient would have the right to ask, "Who was that creep I saw in the hall?", just as no one else would be entitled to ask questions about any of us. It's all confidential.

Many of us would probably be stunned to hear the kinds of cases that go through a psychology department or clinic over the course of a year. But our job is to focus on ourselves, not on what others might or might not have done.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#172659 - 08/11/07 06:13 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
I'm just saying as a society we have allowed this to happen...even our language is a testement to that. As we use words like "pedophile" which literally translated means, "one who loves children."

Please....

I certainly advocate change for anyone and everyone seeking it...but come on...this kind of selfish behavior and total lack of empathy...is just not something that is going to respond well to therapy.

To suggest that an abuser has a disease that can be treated is to suggest that abusing children fits into the natural order of things...and that they can be treated.

I am not a statistics kinda guy...but look at em...not ten or twenty...the average perpetrator has well over a hundred victims stacked up before he is caught.

I lost my objectivity on this a very long time ago...my tolerance, too. As I recall in the UK it is actually illegal for someone to tell a neighbor that there is a convicted sex offender living in the neighborhood!!! What?

I'm sorry...you target the most vulnerable...the most innocent segment of society...brutalize them...there is no empathy on my part...none.

In the state of Washington I hear they are inprisoning people who are "at risk" to offend...yes...sorry...I agree with that logic as inhumane as it may sound or seem.

That came directly out of or as a result of a case that was so brutal there is no way you could even put it anywhere on this site.

PC or not...I stand my ground on this one...


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172665 - 08/11/07 06:56 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

I understand your anger and I'm not arguing against it. Not am I suggesting that you should see a T who also works with perps. But...

We actually learn a great deal from research involving abusers. For example, we all benefit a lot from understanding that CSA isn't about sex, it's about power and the abuser's need to control and manipulate. That's a conclusion that emerges from work with perps. There are many other examples one could name.

As for free therapy, I guess that's true, in the same sense that a convicted murderer gets free room and board for the rest of his life. But what kind of life?

We can look at therapy for perps in the same way. When we go to see a therapist, for example, it's because we are ready and can back out of the process at any time. If a perp gets sent to therapy by a court he has to go whether he wants to or not; if he doesn't attend, he goes back to jail.

We get to choose our therapist and try out different approaches and individuals in order to find the right T. A perp sent to therapy gets who he gets and that's it.

When we go to therapy we are assured we are 100% innocent; when a perp is in therapy he's told he's 100% guilty.

We are in therapy to heal, and the T's job is to help us do that with as little new pain and trauma as possible. The first priority of a T working with a perp isn't healing, but breaking the pattern of perpetrator behavior.

When we are in therapy the T will devote a lot of time to building up trust and allowing us to move forward at our own pace; the T will be willing to listen to a lot of stuff in which we are avoiding issues because we aren't comfortable with them yet. As I understand it, therapy for a perp is much different; the T will have heard all the excuses a thousand times, and his job is to stomp on them as soon as they appear. That is, the perp doesn't get to dance away from what he has done by pointing to his own abuse as a child, or by talking crap like "I only did what the boy wanted".

Like I said, I'm not arguing anything here. Guys who don't wanted to work with Ts who also work with perps can make that decision, though my own thought would be that they might be cutting themselves off from a very talented and knowledgeable source of help. I just think we should be aware of what does and doesn't happen when a perp is in therapy. Take that and think about it, but then, of course, go where you feel you have to go in order to promote your own healing.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#172670 - 08/11/07 07:44 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
thanks larry you made good points ,but on the therapy thing ? everything you described about therapy for the perps? is exactly what happens to their victims. it just seems so weird that when i read all that it described exactly what happens to a kid who gets in trouble because of asbuse issues,forced therapy , you dont back out and you will make progress or else, but your therapy is about anger and destructive acting out not abuse stuff. and when your in detention ,no you cant go home after t ,you learn to give them what they want ,so its not therapy at all.if the kid broke some law hes 1oo%guilty not innocent, therapy for perps is not like therapy for grown up guys ,i understand that,but its exactly what its like for a kid that cant cope. when they drag you in for grand theft at at 13 they really dont care if you had a rough life. and if therapy dont work ,boot camp will ,no way will i ever say lets help the perps cause nobody is helping their victims.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Top
#172678 - 08/11/07 08:17 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: shadowkid]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Hmmm?

Larry...I have so much respect for you...and admiration for your conviction and dedication to everyone on the site.

I do understand what you are saying/suggesting.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172689 - 08/11/07 09:22 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
This thread has challenged my thought processes...
thanks for the very stimulating thoughts on this subject...
it feels good to exercise my brain...
it's been awile, 30 years, since this has happened...
and finally being a "tattle-tale" has been very empowering...
the open and honest communications on this board is
very satisfying, giving me power that I thought was dead
for so many decades...
now to carry the power from a 2-dimmensional format
to a 3D world is the hard part...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

Top
#172704 - 08/11/07 11:47 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Frog,

Regardless whether you agree with some of the things that various users have said in this thead, your last post makes our discussions all worth while. Thanks so much for your sincerity and honesty.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172717 - 08/12/07 03:53 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave, Adam,

Thanks for your measured and calm replies. I know this is rough stuff to think about - for me too! I appreciate the effort youare making when you post on such a volatile topic.

I'll just stress again that I'm not advocating anything here, except the idea that in dealing with our abuse issues it's essential to see things as they really are. Adam, I take your point entirely about the effectiveness of enforced rehab and therapy - you have been on the cutting edge of that one, I haven't. I was just stating what happens when a perp is in therapy; whether the process works is something else and you make an excellent point.

What hammers me here is how a point Dave makes fits in with what you're saying. We know from police reports that perps are not infrequently caught with PCs containing date on more than a hundred boys they have hurt. Apart from the moral dimension of all that, what does that say about this creep? He must have his entire life organized around planning, performing and recording abuse. That is, no time for much else! If that's what he has become, how does one change that? What kind of challenge does that pose for the T who gets the task from the court of breaking this pattern of behavior? How can it possibly work? I don't have answers - it's just on my mind this morning.

And Dave, I do understand how you feel and not for one second would I argue against your right to feel as you do. I don't feel any empathy or compassion for perps either. Like anger, compassion requires attention, caring and emotional energy, and so far as I am concerned there are quite enough survivors who need that. For the record, I don't see me ever forgiving the perps who hurt me. Letting go of them so they're not in my head every day? Sure. I have other things I want to do with my life. But forgiveness? Yeah right! At least that's where I am right now.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#172816 - 08/12/07 01:39 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
This is a very legitimate and informative discussion. One that contains a lot of passion and opinion. My journey will not necessarily ever be the same as another's journey, especially where this topic is concerned, nor should it. Each of us are individuals with our own specific personality, unique in the universe. So understanding that, how can we possibly expect any of us to have the exact same path through all this crap.

This whole question came to a head for me some 3 years ago when it came to light that my T was also treating perps. It was at the close of my session just as things were winding up. The T had forgotten to kill the sound on his answering machine. It came on and before he could get across the room to shut it down, a voice, apparently that of another T in the office, started telling him he had a perpetrator referral he was unable to take and wondering if my T could take him on.

I left the office confused and angry. I stewed about it for the better part of that next week leading up to my next appt. I decided I was not going to go back, that I would attempt to find another T, but even that decision left me bitter and angry and led me, in the end, to my own way of making peace with the situation.

I'd worked hard attempting to locate a T that could help me with my issues and now that I'd found one he turned out to be treating perps as well. I was never going back. I'd find someone else. It finally dawned on me that in my anger, my refusal to return to a T that had obviously been able to help me make huge strides toward recovery, I was allowing the perps yet again to reach out and control me 25-30 years after the abuse was over. They were still in control dictating to me what I could and couldn't say and to whom I was allowed to say it.

So screw them. I had found someone who could relate well with me and who was a real pro at getting in, and in just the right way pointing out to me the places where my thinking was screwed up in some way. He was good at helping me to see where the abuse had clouded my world view of reality, where it had caused me to become afraid or aggressive or had halted my emotional growth. His counseling was the best thing that had come my way in many years and there was no way I was going to allow my fear and anger toward the perps interfere with that.

In short, I was going to live my life the way I wanted to live it. I was no longer going to live in fear of some worthless creeps who were so low the only power they could have was to inflict terror and harm on a helpless child. I was the one in control now, not them and if I wanted to continue seeing my T I was damn well going to do so, and I was going to start doing a lot of other things like talking about the abuse whenever I was offered a chance, and it seemed the proper setting to do so. Since that time I've spoken to church and civic groups on several occasions regarding my experience and the horrors that SA brings into the lives of the victims. There's no way I'm going to continue to allow them to keep me quiet or tell me what I can or cannot do or with whom.

But that's my journey, and again, I'm not attempting to suggest that it should be the same as another's. Each of us has to have the freedom to do what works for us until such time as it no longer works and then to have the continued freedom to seek another avenue that does work.

Anyhow, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172862 - 08/12/07 07:25 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Thank you, John...


One hundred and tweny five million plus presrcriptions were written this year for anti-depressants. 125,000,000. That is truly an amazing figure isn't it?

You have to wonder if there are truly that many more people suffering from depression than there was say, just ten years ago. Don't you? To justify that kind of statistic.

Or, is it that the words, "disease" and "disorder" have simply replaced the word "responsibility" in our culture.

The wonderful world of pharmocolgy, brought to you by the people who suggest that intestinal bleeding, vomitting, headaches, nausea, and kidney failure are acceptable side effects so that your toenails look good on your cruise this summer.

Addiction is no longer a behavroial issue but one of genetic predisposition. "It ain't my fault, my great grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandmother shot up everyday."

My father was an alcoholic and a Manic. He had several Psychiatrists at his disposal...they treated him, medicated him. He went in once a year to the hospital at their suggestion. His insurance covered it, paid them. Let's do it. Get it done...get this under control.

They sat us down...told us we would have to "be good." Be good little boys and girls. "Can you do that? So that your father will get well?"

"Yes."

And we all lived happily ever after.

Except that now he had no responsibility for his actions what so ever. They had given him license and my mother the opportunity. "He can't help it," she would say.

He had excellent health insurance that commanded only the very best Psychiatrists. He had a provision in his health insurance that allowed him to get paid while he was in the hospital. But the Psychiatrists refused to sign the papers releasing the income until he was actually standing in the door ready to be released. Because it was not my mother's money...not ours...it was my father's. My mother's signature was good enough so that they could get their payment...

So we went hungry, we walked to school because we could not afford gas for the car. And when he got out...he took the money, went out and got drunk...came home and beat us until the welts exploded along the outside edges with those tiny drops of blood that tell you he was serious. And we started the cycle all over again.

Because there was no reason for him to do anything different. It wasn't his fault. It was the disease.

To stand up and say...I refuse to see a therapist that also treats perpetrators is also empowering. Because we have that right...we have the right to say what we need and a reasonable expectation that those needs will be honored.

You have the right to ask a therapist and if he refuses or ignores that...then you have a right to walk out the door.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172890 - 08/12/07 10:29 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I've been following this thread, somewhat afraid to reply. This is an outstanding topic, one that needed to be pursued. It will probably need to be pursued again in the future.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's opinion. In fact, I mean quite the opposite. Dave, Adam, Frog: your opinions are opinions I had never even considered before. Quite frankly, you've opened my eyes to something that was beyond my comprehension.

But John put it best when he said that all of our situations are different. That was a powerful post, and it made everyone's opinion so much more important. These are legitimate and important concerns.

Of course my situation is different, and as accepting as this board is, it's still a bit difficult for me to talk about it (hence my fear of posting here). The reason I saw a therapist for the first time was because I needed to prevent myself from becoming a perp. Of course, my first reaction was to search for someone who had some experience in dealing with perps. After a few sessions, and after a few posts here, I came to realize that I never really was a danger to become a perp, and I took steps in preventing that from happening before I ever got to the point where I was a danger.

Finally: Dave: The concern you have in your last post is one I feel so very strongly about. My mother is on about nine different pre>


Edited by BJK (08/12/07 10:43 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#172891 - 08/12/07 10:38 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: BJK]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
I'll make this one short and to the point. Bryan's post above got me to thinking and this is the profound result of my cogitations. ;\)

No amount of either medication and/or therapy is EVER going to be effective with anyone who does not want to do the work of recovery or has no desire for change. Simple as that.

John



_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172894 - 08/12/07 11:10 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: walkingsouth
No amount of either medication and/or therapy is EVER going to be effective with anyone who does not want to do the work of recovery or has no desire for change. Simple as that.

That doesn't paint the happiest picture in the world ... it's hard to want to keep moving sometimes. And the desire for change is also very frightening. Sometimes I'd rather go back to hiding...

Sounds hopeless ...


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#172897 - 08/12/07 11:25 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: MarkK]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Sometimes we all would rather go back into hiding, Mark. But what I see in your posts, even this last one, is that you have that desire. I don't think you'd have cared enough to even post your concern above if you didn't have it within yourself.

Part of the damage that was done to us by the abuse is that often we don't even know our own minds when it comes to some of this stuff. We know how we feel, but often feelings have nothing to do with reality. Our world view is clouded by the erroneous thinking we used as kids to protect ourselves with. It worked then, but now we no longer need it for protection, and yet we know no other way to be. That is one of the things that makes this journey so daunting to us, and yet that little guy that struggled through back then is still within us and still fighting to break through.

I and your other brothers here see that fight in you, Mark. It may not seem like it sometimes from your point of view, but we can clearly see it. The very fact that you are here posting tells us that it's there. Sometimes we just need to lean on our brothers for that helping hand. That's what this place is for.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172899 - 08/12/07 11:54 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Yea, mostly I am just arguing because I thought there needed to be two sides to this. It seemed a little lopsided there for a bit.


Trust is such a difficult thing...in the initial stages of therapy. So much time is spent on just getting to that point where you might truly feel trust for the first time...or feel it once again I guess in some cases.

But today's microwave solutions as far as meds go...only work if you take em.


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#173721 - 08/16/07 06:27 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2548
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: ttoon
But today's microwave solutions as far as meds go...only work if you take em.

But that's true about everything.
Trust only works if you exercise it
Courage only works if you act on it
Money only works if you spend it
Oxygen only works if you breathe it

My point? i probably don't have one. i did when i started this, but like so much in my life anymore, it's faded before i even got to experience it.

m


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