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#172659 - 08/11/07 06:13 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
I'm just saying as a society we have allowed this to happen...even our language is a testement to that. As we use words like "pedophile" which literally translated means, "one who loves children."

Please....

I certainly advocate change for anyone and everyone seeking it...but come on...this kind of selfish behavior and total lack of empathy...is just not something that is going to respond well to therapy.

To suggest that an abuser has a disease that can be treated is to suggest that abusing children fits into the natural order of things...and that they can be treated.

I am not a statistics kinda guy...but look at em...not ten or twenty...the average perpetrator has well over a hundred victims stacked up before he is caught.

I lost my objectivity on this a very long time ago...my tolerance, too. As I recall in the UK it is actually illegal for someone to tell a neighbor that there is a convicted sex offender living in the neighborhood!!! What?

I'm sorry...you target the most vulnerable...the most innocent segment of society...brutalize them...there is no empathy on my part...none.

In the state of Washington I hear they are inprisoning people who are "at risk" to offend...yes...sorry...I agree with that logic as inhumane as it may sound or seem.

That came directly out of or as a result of a case that was so brutal there is no way you could even put it anywhere on this site.

PC or not...I stand my ground on this one...


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172665 - 08/11/07 06:56 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

I understand your anger and I'm not arguing against it. Not am I suggesting that you should see a T who also works with perps. But...

We actually learn a great deal from research involving abusers. For example, we all benefit a lot from understanding that CSA isn't about sex, it's about power and the abuser's need to control and manipulate. That's a conclusion that emerges from work with perps. There are many other examples one could name.

As for free therapy, I guess that's true, in the same sense that a convicted murderer gets free room and board for the rest of his life. But what kind of life?

We can look at therapy for perps in the same way. When we go to see a therapist, for example, it's because we are ready and can back out of the process at any time. If a perp gets sent to therapy by a court he has to go whether he wants to or not; if he doesn't attend, he goes back to jail.

We get to choose our therapist and try out different approaches and individuals in order to find the right T. A perp sent to therapy gets who he gets and that's it.

When we go to therapy we are assured we are 100% innocent; when a perp is in therapy he's told he's 100% guilty.

We are in therapy to heal, and the T's job is to help us do that with as little new pain and trauma as possible. The first priority of a T working with a perp isn't healing, but breaking the pattern of perpetrator behavior.

When we are in therapy the T will devote a lot of time to building up trust and allowing us to move forward at our own pace; the T will be willing to listen to a lot of stuff in which we are avoiding issues because we aren't comfortable with them yet. As I understand it, therapy for a perp is much different; the T will have heard all the excuses a thousand times, and his job is to stomp on them as soon as they appear. That is, the perp doesn't get to dance away from what he has done by pointing to his own abuse as a child, or by talking crap like "I only did what the boy wanted".

Like I said, I'm not arguing anything here. Guys who don't wanted to work with Ts who also work with perps can make that decision, though my own thought would be that they might be cutting themselves off from a very talented and knowledgeable source of help. I just think we should be aware of what does and doesn't happen when a perp is in therapy. Take that and think about it, but then, of course, go where you feel you have to go in order to promote your own healing.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#172670 - 08/11/07 07:44 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
thanks larry you made good points ,but on the therapy thing ? everything you described about therapy for the perps? is exactly what happens to their victims. it just seems so weird that when i read all that it described exactly what happens to a kid who gets in trouble because of asbuse issues,forced therapy , you dont back out and you will make progress or else, but your therapy is about anger and destructive acting out not abuse stuff. and when your in detention ,no you cant go home after t ,you learn to give them what they want ,so its not therapy at all.if the kid broke some law hes 1oo%guilty not innocent, therapy for perps is not like therapy for grown up guys ,i understand that,but its exactly what its like for a kid that cant cope. when they drag you in for grand theft at at 13 they really dont care if you had a rough life. and if therapy dont work ,boot camp will ,no way will i ever say lets help the perps cause nobody is helping their victims.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#172678 - 08/11/07 08:17 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: shadowkid]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Hmmm?

Larry...I have so much respect for you...and admiration for your conviction and dedication to everyone on the site.

I do understand what you are saying/suggesting.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172689 - 08/11/07 09:22 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
Frog Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Arizona
This thread has challenged my thought processes...
thanks for the very stimulating thoughts on this subject...
it feels good to exercise my brain...
it's been awile, 30 years, since this has happened...
and finally being a "tattle-tale" has been very empowering...
the open and honest communications on this board is
very satisfying, giving me power that I thought was dead
for so many decades...
now to carry the power from a 2-dimmensional format
to a 3D world is the hard part...

_________________________
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: "Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time." When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment, "The one I feed the most."

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#172704 - 08/11/07 11:47 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: Frog]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Frog,

Regardless whether you agree with some of the things that various users have said in this thead, your last post makes our discussions all worth while. Thanks so much for your sincerity and honesty.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172717 - 08/12/07 03:53 AM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave, Adam,

Thanks for your measured and calm replies. I know this is rough stuff to think about - for me too! I appreciate the effort youare making when you post on such a volatile topic.

I'll just stress again that I'm not advocating anything here, except the idea that in dealing with our abuse issues it's essential to see things as they really are. Adam, I take your point entirely about the effectiveness of enforced rehab and therapy - you have been on the cutting edge of that one, I haven't. I was just stating what happens when a perp is in therapy; whether the process works is something else and you make an excellent point.

What hammers me here is how a point Dave makes fits in with what you're saying. We know from police reports that perps are not infrequently caught with PCs containing date on more than a hundred boys they have hurt. Apart from the moral dimension of all that, what does that say about this creep? He must have his entire life organized around planning, performing and recording abuse. That is, no time for much else! If that's what he has become, how does one change that? What kind of challenge does that pose for the T who gets the task from the court of breaking this pattern of behavior? How can it possibly work? I don't have answers - it's just on my mind this morning.

And Dave, I do understand how you feel and not for one second would I argue against your right to feel as you do. I don't feel any empathy or compassion for perps either. Like anger, compassion requires attention, caring and emotional energy, and so far as I am concerned there are quite enough survivors who need that. For the record, I don't see me ever forgiving the perps who hurt me. Letting go of them so they're not in my head every day? Sure. I have other things I want to do with my life. But forgiveness? Yeah right! At least that's where I am right now.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#172816 - 08/12/07 01:39 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: roadrunner]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
This is a very legitimate and informative discussion. One that contains a lot of passion and opinion. My journey will not necessarily ever be the same as another's journey, especially where this topic is concerned, nor should it. Each of us are individuals with our own specific personality, unique in the universe. So understanding that, how can we possibly expect any of us to have the exact same path through all this crap.

This whole question came to a head for me some 3 years ago when it came to light that my T was also treating perps. It was at the close of my session just as things were winding up. The T had forgotten to kill the sound on his answering machine. It came on and before he could get across the room to shut it down, a voice, apparently that of another T in the office, started telling him he had a perpetrator referral he was unable to take and wondering if my T could take him on.

I left the office confused and angry. I stewed about it for the better part of that next week leading up to my next appt. I decided I was not going to go back, that I would attempt to find another T, but even that decision left me bitter and angry and led me, in the end, to my own way of making peace with the situation.

I'd worked hard attempting to locate a T that could help me with my issues and now that I'd found one he turned out to be treating perps as well. I was never going back. I'd find someone else. It finally dawned on me that in my anger, my refusal to return to a T that had obviously been able to help me make huge strides toward recovery, I was allowing the perps yet again to reach out and control me 25-30 years after the abuse was over. They were still in control dictating to me what I could and couldn't say and to whom I was allowed to say it.

So screw them. I had found someone who could relate well with me and who was a real pro at getting in, and in just the right way pointing out to me the places where my thinking was screwed up in some way. He was good at helping me to see where the abuse had clouded my world view of reality, where it had caused me to become afraid or aggressive or had halted my emotional growth. His counseling was the best thing that had come my way in many years and there was no way I was going to allow my fear and anger toward the perps interfere with that.

In short, I was going to live my life the way I wanted to live it. I was no longer going to live in fear of some worthless creeps who were so low the only power they could have was to inflict terror and harm on a helpless child. I was the one in control now, not them and if I wanted to continue seeing my T I was damn well going to do so, and I was going to start doing a lot of other things like talking about the abuse whenever I was offered a chance, and it seemed the proper setting to do so. Since that time I've spoken to church and civic groups on several occasions regarding my experience and the horrors that SA brings into the lives of the victims. There's no way I'm going to continue to allow them to keep me quiet or tell me what I can or cannot do or with whom.

But that's my journey, and again, I'm not attempting to suggest that it should be the same as another's. Each of us has to have the freedom to do what works for us until such time as it no longer works and then to have the continued freedom to seek another avenue that does work.

Anyhow, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#172862 - 08/12/07 07:25 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: WalkingSouth]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Thank you, John...


One hundred and tweny five million plus presrcriptions were written this year for anti-depressants. 125,000,000. That is truly an amazing figure isn't it?

You have to wonder if there are truly that many more people suffering from depression than there was say, just ten years ago. Don't you? To justify that kind of statistic.

Or, is it that the words, "disease" and "disorder" have simply replaced the word "responsibility" in our culture.

The wonderful world of pharmocolgy, brought to you by the people who suggest that intestinal bleeding, vomitting, headaches, nausea, and kidney failure are acceptable side effects so that your toenails look good on your cruise this summer.

Addiction is no longer a behavroial issue but one of genetic predisposition. "It ain't my fault, my great grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandmother shot up everyday."

My father was an alcoholic and a Manic. He had several Psychiatrists at his disposal...they treated him, medicated him. He went in once a year to the hospital at their suggestion. His insurance covered it, paid them. Let's do it. Get it done...get this under control.

They sat us down...told us we would have to "be good." Be good little boys and girls. "Can you do that? So that your father will get well?"

"Yes."

And we all lived happily ever after.

Except that now he had no responsibility for his actions what so ever. They had given him license and my mother the opportunity. "He can't help it," she would say.

He had excellent health insurance that commanded only the very best Psychiatrists. He had a provision in his health insurance that allowed him to get paid while he was in the hospital. But the Psychiatrists refused to sign the papers releasing the income until he was actually standing in the door ready to be released. Because it was not my mother's money...not ours...it was my father's. My mother's signature was good enough so that they could get their payment...

So we went hungry, we walked to school because we could not afford gas for the car. And when he got out...he took the money, went out and got drunk...came home and beat us until the welts exploded along the outside edges with those tiny drops of blood that tell you he was serious. And we started the cycle all over again.

Because there was no reason for him to do anything different. It wasn't his fault. It was the disease.

To stand up and say...I refuse to see a therapist that also treats perpetrators is also empowering. Because we have that right...we have the right to say what we need and a reasonable expectation that those needs will be honored.

You have the right to ask a therapist and if he refuses or ignores that...then you have a right to walk out the door.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#172890 - 08/12/07 10:29 PM Re: Therapists? [Re: ttoon]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I've been following this thread, somewhat afraid to reply. This is an outstanding topic, one that needed to be pursued. It will probably need to be pursued again in the future.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's opinion. In fact, I mean quite the opposite. Dave, Adam, Frog: your opinions are opinions I had never even considered before. Quite frankly, you've opened my eyes to something that was beyond my comprehension.

But John put it best when he said that all of our situations are different. That was a powerful post, and it made everyone's opinion so much more important. These are legitimate and important concerns.

Of course my situation is different, and as accepting as this board is, it's still a bit difficult for me to talk about it (hence my fear of posting here). The reason I saw a therapist for the first time was because I needed to prevent myself from becoming a perp. Of course, my first reaction was to search for someone who had some experience in dealing with perps. After a few sessions, and after a few posts here, I came to realize that I never really was a danger to become a perp, and I took steps in preventing that from happening before I ever got to the point where I was a danger.

Finally: Dave: The concern you have in your last post is one I feel so very strongly about. My mother is on about nine different pre>


Edited by BJK (08/12/07 10:43 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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