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#170538 - 08/02/07 02:34 PM recovery is worse
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
doesn't recovery imply that things get better?
my group tried to warn me that as i work on things to be prepared for the down-spirals.
nothing could prepare me for this
i can practically taste the fury that boils in me
i don't want to be alone
i don't trust my temper around people
i am violated and furious
i HATE how this feels

i'm beginning to think it was better before i started the "road to recovery".

m


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#170539 - 08/02/07 02:47 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
things will get better-----------------hang in there-------------------------this recovery thing is worth it-------------------just today i left work-----------went home early-----------due to my fury and anger-------------------i know i have some issues to deal with------------------you arent alone----------------work touard the future------------------take care-----------------steve


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#170543 - 08/02/07 03:04 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
Happy Birthday Barney Offline


Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Utah/Northern Arizon
Hi Mark,

I remember feeling much like you do as I was deep into my initial discovery. I used to compare my experience to running down a dark corridor as fast as I could, not being able to see what was ahead of me. Then, someone would open an unseen door which I would crash into, leaving me laying on the floor, bleeding, in pain, etc, as a new memory of my abuse would come flooding into my mind. Once I recovered, then I would start running again, full well knowing there would be another door I would hit, another memory, and the need to do it all over again.

My therapist used to say your on a journey, you may be only at step two or three with a total of ten steps being required to complete the trip. You want the pain to end now but it won't until you complete the whole journey. It sucks, I know but what is the alternative??????

She used to say: the process of therapy is like taking two steps forward and one back. That certainly was my experience and even though I have made dramatic progress, I still have issues to work out. Am I happier and more functional? No doubt about it. As, you will be when you do the work that is required.

It took a lot of courage and strength to have made it as far as you did. Build on that foundation, pay the price that needs to be paid and the gain will be well worth the effort.

I think it is great that you have reached out to others and I suspect you will get lots of encouragement from others of us who care.

I wish you well.

Ron


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#170544 - 08/02/07 03:08 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
Happy Birthday Barney Offline


Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Utah/Northern Arizon
Hi Mark,

I remember feeling much like you do as I was deep into my initial discovery. I used to compare my experience to running down a dark corridor as fast as I could, not being able to see what was ahead of me. Then, someone would open an unseen door which I would crash into, leaving me laying on the floor, bleeding, in pain, etc, as a new memory of my abuse would come flooding into my mind. Once I recovered, then I would start running again, full well knowing there would be another door I would hit, another memory, and the need to do it all over again.

My therapist used to say your on a journey, you may be only at step two or three with a total of ten steps being required to complete the trip. You want the pain to end now but it won't until you complete the whole journey. It sucks, I know but what is the alternative??????

She used to say: the process of therapy is like taking two steps forward and one back. That certainly was my experience and even though I have made dramatic progress, I still have issues to work out. Am I happier and more functional? No doubt about it. As, you will be when you do the work that is required.

It took a lot of courage and strength to have made it as far as you did. Build on that foundation, pay the price that needs to be paid and the gain will be well worth the effort.

I think it is great that you have reached out to others and I suspect you will get lots of encouragement from others of us who care.

I wish you well.

Ron


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#170545 - 08/02/07 03:15 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: Barney]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
Hi, Mark

I'm doing that kind of figuring out now...

Okay. I'm 40. I may live another 40 years. My life isn't bad...kind of numb, unfulfilling, some bouts of depression. A 6 on a scale of 10, but I can live with it.

Is it worth it to dive into that swamp and go through, say, five years of misery, in the hopes that the last 35 years get to a 7 or 8 out of ten?

Is the cure worse than the disease?

So many "I'm falling apart" posts here, and so few "my life is much better now" posts...it's scaring the hell out of me.

Any chance of "recovery-lite"?



Edited by MemoryVault (08/02/07 03:16 PM)

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#170551 - 08/02/07 03:54 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MemoryVault]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: MemoryVault
So many "I'm falling apart" posts here, and so few "my life is much better now" posts...it's scaring the hell out of me.

that i can almost qualify by saying more people complain than those who don't ... or the fact this is a site for helping people - so there are naturally more who need help ...

if you're 40, and will live another 40 ... i'm 51 - if I take your top age of 80 - five years of misery ... i'm left with 24 years. So i really understand your question of "is it worth it?"

real question - "can i continue where i am?"
that's easier to answer.
"no"

so now - what's the solution? either continue on - or start trying to stuff the 10,000 elephant back into the 3x5 paper envelope...


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#170553 - 08/02/07 03:58 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
anyway90 Offline
Guest

Registered: 05/26/07
Posts: 148
i am 17.It sounds like a really boastful thing like mygod that is young etc.But who knows.I may be like that till 80.Might be even worse.



Edited by anyway90 (08/02/07 03:59 PM)

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#170554 - 08/02/07 04:08 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: anyway90]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
possibly. might be better. and you have time to find out. but it has posed some interesting information...
5 years out of a possible 63 is just less than 8% spent recovering.
5 years out of a possible 24 is closer to 21% spent recovering.
... 1/5
leaving 4/5 as "recovered"

....

same numbers, different vantage point ...

but who am i kidding. i can't get past the fury. i start thinking there's a way out and the fires rage fresh.


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#170558 - 08/02/07 04:46 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Mark - the downwards spirals are terrible. It's worth going through though.

Until I dealt with the abuse, it was always there just pulling me down and I didn't even realise it!

It's about 3.5 years since I really started dealing with it now, after decades of not dealing with it.

There are still down days, but they do not in any way compare with the downward spirals I used to experience.

At one time I very nearly jumped off a bridge - I didn't, I crossed it instead! I think that's what we all do here, cross the bridge to healing. It might be a rickety old bridge, but it's possible too cross it! Sometimes when we cross that bridge, there is a torrent raging underneath it, and that makes us fearful! Just as that torrent can calm down, so can our lives!

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#170561 - 08/02/07 05:14 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MemoryVault]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Guys,

This problem of dealing with the early stages of recovery is a really important one. We get so many guys here on the site who hang around for awhile and then they're gone. My own take on this is that they're thinking of what David has in mind when he makes this observation:

Originally Posted By: MemoryVault
So many "I'm falling apart" posts here, and so few "my life is much better now" posts...it's scaring the hell out of me.


I can tell you, like Rik does, that yes, it gets a whole LOT better. Perhaps guys who are further down the road don't post as much, and well, some of them feel they can manage things now and they don't need this place anymore, so they leave. If that's how they feel then that's what they should do.

But once we begin to look at things I don't think we can ever really go back. Would any of us want to live a life of confusion and denial, once we know that's what it is? Certainly recovery is rough at the beginning, and for a long time after that - and it's not an easy ride even later. It's also a task that's not a do-it-yourself project; we need professional help with this one.

But you know what? It's a great thing to discover that you really ARE a good man and have a lot to offer, that all the feelings you used to have about yourself are false, and that the things done to you years ago are not your fault and nothing for YOU to be ashamed of. I'm not recovered, not by a long shot, but I feel like a new person - the guy I always was but was never able to show. That's a wonderful thing to experience, and it never gets old, let me tell you.

Is it worth it? Absolutely. Would I ever go back? No way.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#170573 - 08/02/07 06:00 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: roadrunner]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I have to agree with Larry... everytime I come here I re-live all sorts of emotions that I wish I didn't have.

Wishing I didn't have these feelings has never made them go away, though. Not in almost 40 years.

Sometimes the medicine is bitter and hard to swallow, especially if you're not even sure it's going to work. Opening up Pandora's Box is a painful thing to do...

Two things that I can say for sure, looking from hindsight; First, it gets easier and less painful each time we do it, and secondly, given the choice of having travelled this road or not, I am sure that I would be much worse off if I had taken another route; denial and supressing my feelings only made things worse.

Hope you can find your way through all this...

Ric

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#170575 - 08/02/07 06:06 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: Lazarus]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Ric,

Good observation:

Originally Posted By: Lazarus
everytime I come here I re-live all sorts of emotions that I wish I didn't have.

Wishing I didn't have these feelings has never made them go away, though. Not in almost 40 years.


Exactly. We can hide everything and pretend it isn't there, but it IS there! It will continue to harm us and hijack our lives while as we pretend nothing is wrong. What kind of life is that?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#170582 - 08/02/07 06:46 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: roadrunner]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
I'm not recovered, not by a long shot, but I feel like a new person

Larry,

Having talked to you, read your posts, and now hearing you're "not recovered" - maybe there is a reason. Maybe the further we go the better it gets ... easier maybe ...

I can't say this has turned me around ... but it's sure given me a reason for hope.

M


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#170585 - 08/02/07 06:52 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11026
Loc: Denver, CO
Mark,

I'm going to reply without reading other replies. I have found that recovery is a process. I don't know how else to define it. I've had times when things got worse before they got better, and this is because the issues are in the forefront instead of shelved or on the back burner. Believe me when I say that on the other side of the pain is feeling freed. I've been down this road. Does that mean I still don't have issues? No. Does it mean I've arrived? No. But I can say that certain issues are no longer eating away at my heart and soul.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#170587 - 08/02/07 06:54 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
But I can say that certain issues are no longer eating away at my heart and soul.

and i want that so very much.
the more i try
the more my muscles lock up
my stomach burns
my lungs can't catch up
my eyes ache as if i've been crying for weeks
and i haven't shed a tear

i so much just want a little release


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#170594 - 08/02/07 08:00 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
I'm really torn now...

I got into recovery, hard, fifteen years ago. It nearly killed me. I remembered things that didn't happen. I confronted my family over them. Nobody in therapy or groups ever reality-checked me -- nobody ever told me to hit the brakes. I ended up suicidal and knew people who ended up in worse shape than I was. No light at the end of their tunnel--just more tunnel.

I really believe that dropping therapy, slamming the doors, throwing out my journal and living in the present, saved my life. These have been good years, and I'm stronger and ready to try again to deal with real issues in my past and present. I've been keeping a journal again, sharing with trusted friends, and opening up here. It's been helpful and opened my heart and mind a lot.

But I don't think I'll ever "dive in" again. I doubt I'll ever set foot in a therapist's office again unless I have to. I will never believe again that pain is recovery! I will remember that sometimes, there are questions that remain unanswered for a reason--sometimes your defenses do exactly what they're supposed to do, and "healing" that ruins your life is just another abuse.

Opening up about what really happened to me has helped deepen my friendships and relationships now, today. But if my "recovery" ever stops doing that and starts hurting me; if I can't get out of bed, or do my job, or enjoy my friends, I have the right to back away.

I really don't know which side of that fence I'm on now.


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#170610 - 08/02/07 08:50 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MemoryVault]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
well for me--------------i am a lot better off now than say 6 years ago-----------------my mind is clearer------------i can handle some things better---------------i even like myself ----------as to hating myself-----------------------sure i get pitfalls------------------yet i can deal with them better-------------and they dont overwelm me as much----------------i dont have my sucidal thoughts.........bad depression.......any more-------ike i am living in hell all of the time------------------i can see the blue sky------------hear the birds sing----------get enjoyment out of little things in life----------------i feel its defently worth it-----------------and there is no going back----------------for me-------------------------steve


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#170616 - 08/02/07 09:02 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MemoryVault]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Mark...

I had surgery on both my hands two years ago...the second about ten days after the first.

The second surgery went badly...they forgot the anesthetic...which sounds maybe wosre than it was...but I was highly motivated because I had felt the discomfort for most of my life...was misdiagnosed, and told that there was absolutely nothing they could do about it.

I went into it with nothing more than the Orthapedic Specialist's opinion that my life would significantly improve because of the surgeries.

I had my non-dominant hand done first, ten days later I had my other hand done.

It sucked.

For the first several weeks I could not open any door...the first several days zippers and buttons were out of the question. My hands were both bandaged and I had to rely on my wife to do very basic things for me.

But the end result is just amazing to me...absolutely amazing. No more pain that I had lived with for well over forty years. It was and remains to be gone.

This process of taking everything out...putting it under a magnifying glass sucks...it hurts...it is painful it is incredibly hard...but for me it has been so worth it.

Every single relationship I have is changed through this process. Every one. Fifteen years ago my therapist asked..."What do you want out of this experience?" I simply responded by saying, "I want to be real."


It is hard...the most difficult thing I have ever done.

It does change, evolve...you have come this far.


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#170638 - 08/02/07 10:32 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: roadrunner]
tresheridas Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 8
Loc: Utah
I'm 65, Markk, and I didn't recover the realization of my abuse until a couple of years ago. And I can still tell you, for sure, the journey is worth it.

In years, you're getting an early start dealing with the abuse itself.

On the other hand, I've been in therapy off and on since a near-suicide in my early twenties - I just didn't know that the abuse was the cause of my abysmal life.

The therapy helped me stay alive and even achieve a law degree and a legal career. Still, I struggled with dysfunctional, self-sabotaging behavior. Finally, a couple of years ago, I recovered the realization of the violent abuse I suffered. I believe I was working toward that moment of realization all my life, just dealing with the little demons until I could finally face the mother of them all.

Even with all that behind me, when the realization came, the pain and pure rage were indescribable.

But the previous therapy, I know, helped me when I went back to therapy again, this time to deal with the knowledge of my mother's violent sexual abuse of me.

Markk, I can tell you it is worth it. I can tell you I would have gone through every awful minute of it, just to feel like I do now.

Not only am I not a piece of worthless shit - my God, I am precious. I am worthy of love and I am loved. And I love the baby who survived that abuse and the little boy and the bullied teen-ager and the young adult and all of the "me's" who kept hanging in there even when suicide seemed the only decent thing to do.

If I had known that I would have one minute - even one second - feeling like I do now, I would have gone through every bit of it.

I tell you, my brother whom I've never met, you can't believe how good it's gonna get.

You hang in there, brother, no matter what. You just hang in there and keep fighting. The demons will get weaker and weaker.

And, one day, you'll think, "Damn! It's true. I am precious!"

Even then, there'll be more work to do. But you'll never forget that moment and you'll know that it will come again and again and stay longer each time.

You're tough, man, or you wouldn't even be here.

No matter what, you hang in there.

_________________________
Tres

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#170650 - 08/02/07 11:36 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: roadrunner]
MusicMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Elmira, NY
I can really relate to what Rik and Roadrunner have to say, Mark. (Thanks guys).

I have been working on this stuff heavily for almost 4 years now. Like Rik said, even though I had never really dealth with it, it was always there taking me down slowly anyway.

It has been a very long road for me, but from where I was during my 2 nervous breakdowns (especially the second one -- Oh my Gosh) to where I am now, I can say that I am much better. Because of that, I had not been how for quite a long time. However, I have noticed a marked, unforeseen regression in my condition over the past year and I am paying attention to it. That's why I recently started coming back here and why I am here often. It looks like I still have a lot of work to do and I am doing it, including still seeing my therapist.

With that said, I can still agree with Rik and Roadrunner... It does get better. It does. Would I want to go back? Not a chance.

Hang in there. You know that we care about you.


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#170671 - 08/03/07 03:59 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: roadrunner]
easterneurope Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 60
Loc: eastern europe
M ~~ so worth it. For so many reasons. I can't list them for you, because I don't know you personally. Sometimes I can only be motivated by the fact that my recovery impacts other people. Not just me. I've got 3 daughters who did not sign on to be raised by a hellish, broken father. That motivated the hell out of me. I also really know that I can stop the cycle of power abuse had on me. Or, I can pass my fear and panic on to my girls. The only way to stop it is to continue the fight. Basically, I'm a coward. I hate pain and I detest being inconvenienced. I'm 43 and I know this is it. I only get one life. I want to know it counted for something beyond what other people did to me. I've been strengthened by a lot of things and finding real purpose for my life has helped.

_________________________


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#170691 - 08/03/07 08:54 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: easterneurope]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
what i'm hearing:
1. it gets better
2. it takes time (a LOT of time)
3. it takes even more time
4. it can get worse after it gets better
5. it can take years

what i'm up against:
A. i'm not worth it
B. i don't know if i can handle much worse
C. i'm scared to death

but i'm still here. why? mostly because if you guys can do it, i should be able to. i can't be THAT much worse than any of you, can i?

but i ache.
and i'm so tired.

but my son deserves a father at home. so for at least the next 3 years until he graduates, i guess i'm in the game.

for now


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#170809 - 08/03/07 06:56 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
yaaaaa-----------------good for you-----------------mark.......................................steve


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#170822 - 08/03/07 08:28 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: sabata]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
the cheering may be a bit ... premature


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#170823 - 08/03/07 08:36 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
why????????????????????????


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#170831 - 08/03/07 09:00 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: sabata]
Xavier91 Offline
Guest

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 84
its a step... so i'd say thats worth cheering!

_________________________
Rather laugh about what has been
Then fear what still comes, perhaps
Rather loving a big ghost
Then hating something that you canít see

You are gone, but closer then ever

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#170833 - 08/03/07 09:02 PM Re: recovery is worse [Re: Xavier91]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
a step forward
3 back


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#170893 - 08/04/07 03:00 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
easterneurope Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 60
Loc: eastern europe
stepping forward, only to step backward... it implies that at least you are in motion and haven't given up!

I like this quote: "It doesn't matter where you start. It only matters where you finish."

I'm no expert, been plowing thru for years with more plowing ahead. Stay in the game.

Know what I learned.... EVERYBODY has truckloads of crap to deal with, not just us. EVERYBODY has been abused in some way, not just us. Some folks got physical disability, others got emotional issues, others have mental needs ....no one gets out unharmed. The glory is we can learn to cope, then thrive, in our own particular crap.

It's hard, as you pointed out and understand. But consider how hard it is to do nothing.

_________________________


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#170894 - 08/04/07 03:02 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: easterneurope]
easterneurope Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 60
Loc: eastern europe
...and take these next 3 years and love the hell out of your son, give him your heart. Does he know what happened to you?

_________________________


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#170896 - 08/04/07 03:10 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: easterneurope]
easterneurope Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 60
Loc: eastern europe
One more thing ...my thoughts are rambling!! LOL

My wife is dealing with the results of her really crappy parents. They were worthless for the most part. Anyway, she has days when she doesn't want to deal any more. I remind her that NOTHING WORTH HAVING EVER COMES EASY.

_________________________


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#170898 - 08/04/07 04:49 AM Re: recovery is worse [Re: MarkK]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark,

A lot of your posts suggest that you see yourself as marking time until some final collapse comes. You often say, for example, that you won't give up "yet", and here is something similar:

Originally Posted By: MarkK
but my son deserves a father at home. so for at least the next 3 years until he graduates, i guess i'm in the game.

for now


But one answer to that is that you never stop being a Dad. I'm 58, and a few years ago when I was new to recovery one of the first things I wanted to aim for was telling my Dad. I needed his support. You never get too old to be your son's father, Mark.

But even more important, my friend, is that your recovery is for you first and foremost. You can't give to others strength you don't have. You have to be strong for yourself before you can be there for others.

Yes, recovery takes a long time and it can get rough, but in the last 5 years I have made huge progress and I can actually say I like being me. That's an amazing development for a guy who felt worthless in 2003. And there's nothing special or unique about my healing skills.

I hope you can see the importance of aiming high. Don't tell yourself you won't give up "yet" - that's a defeatist way to look at things and I don't think it can help you. It's a way of saying "I know I can't do this, but I will postpone meltdown until X." Tell yourself you can do it and aim for that. It really is the only way. Which of us could ever learn to swim, for example, by getting in the water convinced we will drown regardless of how hard we try?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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