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#169464 - 07/28/07 11:08 AM rockbottom
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
can't stop the tears this morning. wife's off at work and son is at a boat show with one of his best friends, so i have the opportunity to exam my life. things i wanted to get done today too but all i can do is hug the stuffed puppy i got for Young Mark and hold on.

right now i'm not too crazy about recovery.


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#169466 - 07/28/07 11:20 AM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Mark, I'm so sorry...

I've been where you are and I know how bad it sucks. Don't beat yourself up. Right now you have the opportunity for a good cry. Go ahead and let it out. You deserve it, and you'll feel better afterwards, I promise.

I feel for you, buddy. I really do...

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#169467 - 07/28/07 12:01 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Lazarus]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Mark,

The emotion wouldn't be there if it didn't need to come out. Let it flow. The stuffed animal is just the thing to hold onto when you need to cry for Little Mark.

Just know that you have brothers here who understand and support you in your healing journey.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#169474 - 07/28/07 12:36 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: WalkingSouth]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Go ahead and let it out.

Originally Posted By: walkingsouth
Let it flow.

thanx guys, but the tears aren't there now. short shower i guess.
i feel floods flowing inside - but there's nothing on the outside but rock and stone.
so much pain. not physical pain so much, tho i'm having some symptoms that seem to relate back.

i guess i just don't know how to "let it out" or "let it flow". i've cried before ... but i've never cried for me.




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#169475 - 07/28/07 12:48 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Pete2004 Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 958
Loc: North Carolina
Mark:

The tears will come, it is a process. You have the courage and the inner strength to process this. Don't beat yourself up and don't put yourself under pressure. It will come, just as spring comes after winter. You have had some good break throughs my friend.

Peter

_________________________
There is a destiny that makes us brothers;
No one goes his way alone;
What we send into the lives of others,
comes back into our own. (Edwin Markham)

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#169479 - 07/28/07 01:56 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Pete2004]
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Mark crying is good Let it flow. Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#169483 - 07/28/07 02:12 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Muldoon]
bp83 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 111
Loc: Arkansas
we're here for you man

_________________________
-
Scott

"Life is for living, we all know, and I don't want to live it alone..."-Chris Martin

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#169486 - 07/28/07 03:00 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: bp83]
Alexander Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 223
Loc: The Netherlands
I wanted to echo BP, we are here for you. Anytime man!

_________________________
Come on, oh my star is fading
And I see no chance of release
And I know I'm dead on the surface
But I am screaming underneath

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#169493 - 07/28/07 03:47 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Alexander]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
wall of rock
solid
ungiving
unbending

how can i help him if i won't allow myself to reach him?


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#169494 - 07/28/07 03:56 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
MusicMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Elmira, NY
Mark,

I've never spoken to you before, but you just made me cry. I've hugged my teddy bear many times and cried. Sometimes it comes from out of nowhere. I guess I didn't expect it to happen even now. But it did. I feel for you and with you.

God bless


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#169510 - 07/28/07 04:56 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MusicMan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
cry for me
i have nothing

m


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#169512 - 07/28/07 05:21 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MusicMan]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Mark, I don't know how to tell you how to let go. I do know that you don't always have to be the rock or superman. You have to give yourself permission to let your feelings show once in awhile. It doesn't mean you're less of a man; it may mean that you are more of one.

It's OK, buddy. It really is. You are a like a volcano right now, and if you don't let off a little steam you're gonna blow sky high.

I wish there was some way I could help you more than that.

Laz

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#169518 - 07/28/07 05:40 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Maxx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: MarkK
cry for me
i have nothing

When I first came to this site a couple of weeks ago, I cried everytime I logged on. It felt better than all the times I wished I could have cried for all the pain I felt.

You've been hurt, as we all have. But you've got a wife and family that loves you (more than I've got), a personal support group and an online support group and a faith in God. You can make it.

I've found that emotions can be like the waves of the ocean ... they wash over you, but are then gone and you're still standing.

Stay strong,
Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

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#169519 - 07/28/07 05:40 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Laz,

i appreciate your help (and yes, you are providing help just by talking to me) - my problem isn't showing my feelings.

i can cry at funerals. shoot - i can cry at sad movies.

what i've realized today is i don't cry for myself. and i don't think i ever have. or if i have... it's been a LONG time.

M

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#169520 - 07/28/07 05:45 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Mark,

Is that because you don't feel you deserve sympathy, especially from yourself? Do you blame yourself for what happened to you or for the emotional turmoil that resulted?

If you can't cry for yourself, cry for Little Mark. He's the one who was hurt after all.

Laz

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#169521 - 07/28/07 05:49 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Is that because you don't feel you deserve sympathy, especially from yourself?

i wish i knew...
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Do you blame yourself for what happened to you or for the emotional turmoil that resulted?

not consciously, no. i've done a lot of work in that area.
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
If you can't cry for yourself, cry for Little Mark.

and that's the severest of the pain. i can't find the tears. he tells me it's ok, we snuggle the stuffed animal ... but i know i should have tears.

i don't know what's wrong with me \:\(


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#169522 - 07/28/07 05:53 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Maxx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: MarkK
i don't know what's wrong with me \:\(

You were sexually abused as a child. It screws everything up.

Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

Top
#169523 - 07/28/07 05:58 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Maxx]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
that can't be my excuse for everything


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#169524 - 07/28/07 06:02 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Maxx]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
There's nothing 'wrong' with you, buddy. It is not wrong to be emotionally distressed about being hurt in the worst way a person can be hurt. And there's nothing wrong with being strong, either. It's the coping mechanism that many of us use just to get by, day to day.

Maybe the moment has passed. Next time, give yourself permission. Little Mark is NOT OK, or you wouldn't be going through all of this. He says he's OK because he doesn't want to hurt you, doesn't want to worry you. But you know better. The only thing you can do now to ease his pain is to console him, hold him close and let him know that you know how bad he's hurt. And if it happens, cry with him.

I will cry for him, and for you. Fact is, I already am.

Laz

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#169529 - 07/28/07 06:34 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
MusicMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Elmira, NY
Mark,

I can relate to your feelings 100%. I've been there and still still do that. It's not pleasant, but it happens.

Question: Do you suffer from PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)? I do and it is chronic :(. A full blown attack of PTSD always starts out with crying. However, the crying gets so severe that I dissociate from reality, and the crying does not stop throughout. I don't know if that has ever happened to you. I hope not. Crying for me does not necessariy mean that I will fade into PTSD, but the tears are never very far away.

I think our hearts have been so deeply hurt, and the damage has gone soul deep, that crying is the only way that our emotional selves can express it when felt. It's not good, and it's not bad. It just is.

Take good care of you. It sounds like you are very loved and know that we all care very much about you.

God bless


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#169532 - 07/28/07 06:48 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Maybe the moment has passed

sure - that must be it.
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
I will cry for him, and for you. Fact is, I already am.

but you can stop now - the moment has passed

thanx for bein there.


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#169533 - 07/28/07 06:50 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MusicMan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: MusicMan
Do you suffer from PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)? I do and it is chronic :(. A full blown attack of PTSD always starts out with crying.

guess not - i don't have the crying

M


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#169563 - 07/28/07 09:15 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Mark - when I was 12, I vowed that I would never cry again because of something that someone else did. I kept that vow for over 3 decades, through the loss of my dog (the only being that never let me down once, although a few others have been close). The death of my parents, several favourite relatives, good friends in accidents, and so it goes on!

I broke down in December of 2003 (from 1969) and cried like a banshee! When you are ready, it will happen! It was a major release for me!

best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#169571 - 07/28/07 09:51 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: RICK57]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
thanks. i cried at Mom's funeral ... like i said, for MOST things it seems i can cry...

M

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#169574 - 07/28/07 10:00 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Maxx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
It seems sometimes that it's easier to cry for others than for ourselves. If we cry for ourselves, it seems neverending....

Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

Top
#169575 - 07/28/07 10:03 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Maxx]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Maxx
If we cry for ourselves, it seems neverending....

i'll have to take your word for that, Maxx

M


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#169578 - 07/28/07 10:14 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Maxx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
i think that what I mean is that once we open those gates, there's no end; it's easier to cry for others. Sometimes its easier not to cry for ourselves at all. I couldn't cry for myself for a long time.

Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

Top
#169579 - 07/28/07 10:16 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Maxx]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Maxx
i think that what I mean is that once we open those gates, there's no end


oh. ok .. not a problem i have


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#169585 - 07/28/07 10:40 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Maxx Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Yeah, I've been there. It sounds like you don't think you're worth crying for ... you are. Your pain is as legitimate as anyone else's.

Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

Top
#169586 - 07/28/07 10:41 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MusicMan]
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 979
Loc: HULBERT OK
When You are at the bottom of a well there is no where to go but UP! This will pass

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

Top
#169587 - 07/28/07 10:42 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Maxx]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Maxx
Your pain is as legitimate as anyone else's

thank you for that, Maxx. i'm just WAY too tired to argue that one with you tonight.

M


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#169681 - 07/29/07 08:24 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
Army Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 90
Loc: California
Hey Mark,

One thing that helped me to let them flow was doing some memory excersizes. Looking at an old photo of myself and recalling some aspect of the abuse. Focusing on the little hurting boy who did not ask to be hurt. I pictue him, put him in my arms and hold him. And cry.

I used to be afraid to cry cuz I thought I wouldn't stop. It took a while but I did stop. It really helped.

Praying for ya,

Army

_________________________
07 Peebbles WOR Alummni

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#169763 - 07/30/07 08:00 AM Re: rockbottom [Re: Army]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark,

One thing that might help you is to see this inability to cry as an abuse issue, and not as a personality trait of yours as an individual. We often do this without noticing it - we assume that something troubling us is a fault of ours as an individual, when in fact it's a common problem among survivors. You can see that, I think, from all the responses you have here; you are ringing a bell so many guys recognize!

Once we define this as an abuse issue we entirely reorient the way we address it. If you look back to your childhood, Mark, I bet you will see that you learned very quickly to hide not only what was happening, but also how you felt about it. It's so often a top priority for a boy to cover up what's happening to him, including how he feels - no one must know. I remember desperately fighting to hold back the tears and keep myself from trembling. It was terrible, and it still shows in all the wooden smiles and fake happy poses in photos from those days.

Another side of this is that a boy learns to numb out because that's what he had to do in order to survive. We come to think - falsely, but that's a different problem - that we don't deserve care, sympathy or help, that our feelings don't matter, and that if we cry all that will happen is that we will be exposed, shamed and judged. No wonder we close down.

So allowing ourselves to cry, my friend, is connected with allowing ourselves to feel again. It's something that is part of our recovery. It will come in its own time, when we feel safe enough to let out how we feel. It's connected with a regaining of confidence as well, since in order to let out our feelings we have to let go of that old fear that we are forever doomed and in danger.

So in a way, Mark, I don't think our tears are something we can call forth, much as we might wish we could do so. We have to just "let go" (an ambiguous idea, I know) and allow it to happen. It will come when it comes; it will come when we are ready.

So much of recovery is like that Mark. You came here to MS, for example, on April 2nd of this year. Why not the first? Why not March? Why not 2006? Or whenever? Simple: You came here when you were ready and you could not have done it one second earlier.

That's what we all do - we do things when we can - and that's another aspect of recovery we have to learn to accept. We need to allow things to happen, but then be gentle with ourselves until they do.

Hope this helps.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#169869 - 07/30/07 02:22 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: roadrunner]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
We need to allow things to happen, but then be gentle with ourselves until they do.

there was no way to fight things then - so i had to allow them to happen. the guy behind the garage - my brother and his friends - my sister - the principal's son. to keep from being hurt i was the punching bag for every jock in jr high.

WHEN DO I GET TO STOP LETTING THINGS HAPPEN?!?

i am tired of things just happening to me. physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. just so tired.

m


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#169890 - 07/30/07 04:20 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: Army]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Army
One thing that helped me to let them flow was doing some memory excersizes. Looking at an old photo of myself and recalling some aspect of the abuse. Focusing on the little hurting boy who did not ask to be hurt. I pictue him, put him in my arms and hold him. And cry.

key is "recalling some aspect of the abuse". other than knowing things happened, i'm at a loss - the details of it are not accessible, no matter how hard i try. they are more traumatic that either Young Mark or myself care to deal with i guess.

M


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#169946 - 07/30/07 10:38 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MarkK]
MusicMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Elmira, NY
I'm sorry Mark, maybe I missed it along the way, but was there a particular event that brought you to rock bottom? Or was it just being alone and reflecting on life?

Whatever it was, I can definitely relate to the rock bottom. Wow, have I been there. I hit there in late 2003 and it lasted for 6 months. I had to have tons of help to get better. But, eventually, asi started to heal, I made some changes in my life and I got better. I guess it was the old "as long as I do what I've always done, I'll get what I always got" thing.

It sounds like you're just hanging in there at this point. Do something especially nice for yourself. Maybe some of your loved ones will see that you need some nice things going on in your life and join in to help you feel better.

It took me a long time before I was able to say this, but things do get better...eventually.

God bless


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#169960 - 07/30/07 11:19 PM Re: rockbottom [Re: MusicMan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: MusicMan
was there a particular event that brought you to rock bottom?

life in general. that and i had a couple good group meetings. and good stuff always crashes the apple cart.

denver_mark


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