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#169086 - 07/26/07 08:02 AM IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability
FormerTexan Offline
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MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11181
Loc: Denver, CO
Man, am I happy there is Off-Topic! This is too good.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56855

The Internal Revenue Service has lost a lawyer's challenge in front of a jury to prove a constitutional foundation for the nation's income tax, and the victorious attorney now is setting his sights higher.

"I think now people are beginning to realize that this has got to be the largest fraud, backed up by intimidation and extortion and by the sheer force of taking peoples property and hard-earned money without any lawful authorization whatsoever," lawyer Tom Cryer told WND just days after a jury in Louisiana acquitted him of two criminal tax counts.

And before you consign him to the legions of "tin foil hat brigades" who argue against paying taxes, and then want payment to explain how to do that, he addresses the issue up front.

(Continued at the link above)

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#169117 - 07/26/07 10:05 AM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
heh - kewl. thanks for posting this.


m


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#169253 - 07/27/07 01:46 AM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: MarkK]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Thank you for posting this. I don't know HOW they convinced a jury of this when the 16th amendment is quite clear about taxing incomes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#The_Pollock_case

The IRS needs to let me keep my own damned money, thank you very much! After all, "I" worked for my money, "I" got up and put in my 8 or 10 hours, "I" did the work. Therefore, "I" should be able to keep it and spend it as I see fit.

One thing I wouldn't be spending my money on is Aircraft Carriers, more nuclear weapons, foreign aid (a euphemism for "Aid to Dependent Dictators" as a more appropriate de>

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#169254 - 07/27/07 01:56 AM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Hauser]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11181
Loc: Denver, CO
Yeah, about that 16th amendment, it's a garbage law, never lawfully ratified.

http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp

I have a copy of these books. Dry, but interesting.

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#169255 - 07/27/07 02:33 AM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Hmmmmmm. Please educate us Andy. What do you mean by "fully ratified"? I don't know much about it.


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#169305 - 07/27/07 11:38 AM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Hauser]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11181
Loc: Denver, CO
I'd love to. I'll try to draw from memory on this...

Bill Benson was an agent for the Illinois department of revenue back in the early 80s. Something about a court case prompted him to research the 16th amendment. So for a year or so, he traveled the country to all the states which were in the union in 1913 (48) and examined their state journals, archives, and laws for ratifying an amendment to the US Constitution.

He found that only two states ratified the amendment. The rest of the states either changed the wording of the resolution as proposed by Congress, or violated their own state laws for ratification, or were simply declared as ratifying it yet did not.

Kentucky voted it down three times, yet were declared as having ratified it. Oklahoma changed the wording so much it was gibberish when it came out of their legislature. States are not allowed to change a resolution for amendment as proposed by Congress. Otherwise we would have 50 different versions of the amendment. Most states altered the preamble, or the body of the amendment. One state used hard liquor in their ratification process, as there were liquor bottles found all around the house floor at the time. Regardless, there was not the Constitutionally-required three-fourths of the states needed for ratification. Yet scretary of state Philander Knox committed fraud when declaring the amendment as lawfully adopted. All of this is legally documented in 17.000 certifed documents, and these are held currently by Bill Benson.

The courts refuse to hear this issue, even though it is well within their jurisdiction. Any judge who votes it down is likely to end up dead for cutting into the central bank's money machine.

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#169322 - 07/27/07 12:56 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Well, the free college was nice while it lasted... \:\(

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#169324 - 07/27/07 01:01 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: melliferal]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11181
Loc: Denver, CO
As much as I like that point, I doubt federal income tax ever paid for any college. The Grace Commission determined back in the 80s that the federal income tax only pays for interest on the national debt. It does not go to pay for any government "services." Get rid of the Fed, and you can get rid of the IRS. This is doable.

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#169330 - 07/27/07 01:10 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
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If that's true, then when they cut income tax, they'll have to cover the interest by taking money from somewhere (i.e., wherever they're getting the money that does pay for the government services). Programs will be cut either way.

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#169331 - 07/27/07 01:13 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: melliferal]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
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Loc: Denver, CO
Get rid of the Fed, and you can get rid of the IRS. No central bank stealing from us anymore, and no collection agency to feed those thieves.

This is another discussion in itself that I sure would raise many questions. But I guarentee this is doable. Making Congress do it is another story.

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#169340 - 07/27/07 01:51 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
Chain Breaker Offline
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Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
Oh, good grief! You've got to be kidding. The 16th Amendment was ratified and is the law of the land. Don't believe all the right-wing hype. The judge who wrote this latest decision will certainly have it reversed on appeal. If it were me, I'd seek his impeachment for incompetence.

I pray for a world without groundless conspiracy theories.

Also, income tax pays for most of the federal budget. Take it away and all those services will go away -- or we'll continue with the current crazy trend of spending trillions of dollars we don't have on needless military boondoggles.

Everybody in this country benefits more from the federal income tax than they pay in. Ever heard of the Interstate Highway system? Yes, it's brought to you by big government. While excise taxes on oil paid a portion of it, another big portion came directly from the federal income tax.

Hopefully we will elect a Democratic president in 2008 and be able to roll back some of the recent changes to our society that are designed to turn our whole country into the old west.

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

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#169342 - 07/27/07 02:01 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: FormerTexan]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
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Well it would be nice, I guess. I find it difficult to get as excited as most over this issue - the IRS keeps like $30 of what it takes from me and gives all the rest back (seriously), because I'm so damned poor.

The city, now - they tax like crazy. I miss Texas - there's no state or municipal income tax there.

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#169345 - 07/27/07 02:05 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Chain Breaker]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11181
Loc: Denver, CO
"You've got to be kidding."

Does 17,000 certified documents strike you as right-wing hype? This is NOT heresay, Joe. It's d-o-c-u-m-e-n-t-e-d.

"...groundless conspiracy theories."

Please see my note on 17,000 certified documents. This is not theory. It's research, and the government is well aware of this research.

"Ever heard of the interstate highway system?"

Yes. And you are partially right about the excise taxes paying for it.

Knowing the original purpose of establishing the personal federal income tax will help you understand it's purpose today.

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#169348 - 07/27/07 02:13 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Chain Breaker]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Yes, I've heard of the Federal Highway System, it was created via taxpayer money during the 50's, to the detriment of the railroad systems which had to pay property taxes and for maintenance of their systems while GM and Ford directly benefited by producing trucks and parts whose owners didn't have the same burdens in the competition of moving people and goods.

Sure the Federal Highway system is nice, but I would rather take bullet trains and not have to pay for a car and outrageous insurance premiums etc, but I don't have that choice, because there isn't a public transportation system in this country anymore. (Amtrack doesn't qualify, not enough routes)

This is the same Federal Government that, in it's infinite wisdom, doles out "Highway Money" to the states like an allowance, gets the states hooked on the money, then makes NEW RULES in order for them to keep the money coming in! They treat the states like children, or Pavlov dogs even.

Example #1: Former President Reagan urged all the states to push the legal drinking age up to 21, REGARDLESS of the will of the people in those states. Some states, like OH, refused to comply until, guess what? Until Reagan threatened to withhold "highway money".

Example #2: All states in the Union now (except NH) have passed laws, without even deferring to the will of their constituents, allowing police to harass (pull over) citizens for not wearing their seat belts! If the states didn't comply with Washington's "request" that they enact primary enforcement of seat belt laws, they lose their "federal highway money".

As if the states couldn't handle building their own damned roads! Well maybe they could if their citizens incomes weren't being taxed to pay for "Federal Programs".

Ok I'll shut up.


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#169349 - 07/27/07 02:19 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Hauser]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I heard locomotive engineers and airline pilots get both a federal pension and a pension from their employer when (if) they retire. I'm not sure how true it is, though.

Being a locomotive engineer is a job I wouldn't mind having.



Edited by melliferal (07/27/07 02:19 PM)
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#169353 - 07/27/07 02:35 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: melliferal]
Chain Breaker Offline
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Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
Interesting to see the views of a conservative, a liberal, and a libertarian play out against each other.

In my view, those who seek to abolish the federal income tax, regardless of their stated motives, are very misguided. It would create a second Great Depression, and we would never escape from that one.

Personally, I appreciate having federal standards and regulation for the content of food and drugs, the quality of meat, the condition of our highways, and the safety of our airlines, just to name a few. Without federal student aid, many, many people of lower and middle income will be unable to pay college tuition. There is just not enough private money available to give them scholarships. University graduation remains our nation's best way our of poverty. The effects of cuts in Pell Grants are already showing in reduced numbers of lower-income and minority students being able to attend universities.

President Bush's fiscal policy is destroying this country. The very rich are richer than ever, and the middle and lower classes -- the vast majority of the population, are losing ground. And this is without mentioning his generous gifts to credit card companies, in the form of eliminated usury policy, decreased regulation, and an individual bankruptcy law written on Wall Street.

I can't wait for our country to come to its senses.



Edited by Chain Breaker (07/27/07 09:08 PM)
_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
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#169357 - 07/27/07 02:41 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Chain Breaker]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: Chain Breaker
Interesting to see the views of a conservative, a liberal, and a libertarian play out against each other.


If you can all do it without hating or killing each other, you'll have accomplished something that nobody in this country has been able to accomplish in...well, at least the last fifteen years, anyway. That in itself is something to work towards, in my callow opinion.



Edited by melliferal (07/27/07 02:41 PM)
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#169358 - 07/27/07 02:44 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: melliferal]
Chain Breaker Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
Your opinion does not strike me as at all callow, melliferal. And I hope my good buddies FormerTexan and Hauser also know I love them and just enjoy a debate. Sometimes I sound mean, but that's because I have strong opinions, not because I dislike anyone.

Much love,
Joe

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
--Wind In His Hair, Dances With Wolves

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#169359 - 07/27/07 02:47 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Chain Breaker]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
There are times, such as this, when i wonder if the general american public couldn't do better running things ...

anyhoo - have to agree - MS is one place where differences of opinion doesn't mean war, battle, or even "civil unrest"

\:\)


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#169366 - 07/27/07 03:28 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: MarkK]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Joe, I just wanna give you a brief summary of how much "good" the federal government has done with our money.

The FDA for instance, in the 60's refused to allow beta-blockers on the U.S. market because it had not yet been "properly tested". As a result, (I'm at a loss to site sources), TENS of THOUSANDS of people needlessly died for want of what is now a common drug. The same drugs had been available in Europe for many years already, but that didn't matter to the FDA. This is your Federal Government working for you.

"Without federal student aid, many, many people of lower and middle income will be unable to pay college tuition."

Joe, I think you would have made a PERFECT Soviet Citizen. I can just see you standing in line at a Soviet-Government run bakery and waiting 3 hours in line for a single loaf of bread. While you're waiting, you, with your colorful personality that you have :), would strike up conversation with the comrade standing next to you. He might ask you: "Isn't this terrible, having to wait THREE HOURS for a single loaf of bread?" And if I know you, you would reply "Yes, but it could be worse, in America, their government doesn't even SUPPLY bread!"

Isn't it amazing that we have HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of churches in the U.S. and NONE of them are financed by the Government? Amazingly, voluntary contributions make up for all of their expenses. Now, I would like you to consider the exact opposite. What if churches WERE financed by the government all these years. Would you THEN say that we couldn't possibly afford to leave government grants out of the Church System, we "couldn't afford to go to church" without government throwing a bunch of money at it.

Joe, my whole premise for arguing against government in general is that when you turn ANY problem over to the government, it is no longer a social, medical, or consumer issue. No, it then becomes a POLITICAL issue, a POLITICAL issue which will be decided upon by people with the MOST POLITICAL INFLUENCE, which ain't you or me!

Let me jab at this precious Federal Highway Program that you think is so wonderful again:

One of the presumed notions that Federal Highway funds are good for us is that they help poor states get good roads just like rich states. But that simply isn't TRUE. The federal highway program allows the richer, more powerful states to plunder the poor states. A main recipient of highway funds is Pennsylvania. Why Pennsylvania? Because the chairman of the House Transportation Committee is Bud Shuster of Pennsylvania, and he has the most, (guess what?) "political influence".

The people in states like Alabama or Montana are taxed so that congressmen and senators can reward friends with contracts for a $2-billion subway system in Miami that doesn't work, a "People Mover" in Detroit that hardly anyone uses because it goes hardly anywhere, a billion-dollar airport in Denver that no one but the Denver mayor wanted. These are "your highway dollars at work."

Ok I'm shutting up now.


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#169395 - 07/27/07 09:40 PM Re: IRS loses challenge to prove tax liability [Re: Hauser]
Chain Breaker Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
Wow, Hauser, I wish I had time to address your arguments, but I will be leaving town in the morning. I will be gone for two weeks. I'd be happy to take it up again then, if you're still interested.

I won't be on the board during that time, and I will miss everyone. Have a good time while I'm gone.

Joe

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
--Wind In His Hair, Dances With Wolves

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