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#168013 - 07/20/07 08:25 PM when a man loves a man
Nate Offline
Guest

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 94
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
well the title is an egageration, but hey it got your attention, right?

so lately i've had my sights on someone i deem a truly amazing man. words do not due him justice - he's the kindest, most thoughtful gay man i have ever met. Am I twitterpated, sure am. Nothing is happening relationally due to me leaving the country. However, meeting someone I could very easily fall in love with has been a totally new experience for me.

Since being abused and raped twice - my trust in others has been... well none. I find it odd that I feel safe with someone. I find it confusing these feelings of closeness - I guess in many ways I haven't experienced these things before. Sad I know... yet true.

I guess I'm writing this post to see if anyone else has experienced this.

have you every truly experienced love?

what obstacles do you think love encounters for those of us who have been so violated?

i know i can put up a wall. i know i'm weird w/ getting close to others. I know sex scares me to death. what experiences have you had?

when those obstacles came -- what did you do to overcome them?

I talked with this guy briefly about a couple of the things I was feeling and I felt as if I was being a burden. He wanted to know what I was feeling -- but I honestly felt like -- well i guess there was a part of me that wondered if he REALLY wanted to know. then there was a part of me that wanted to protect him from the brokeness that is within me.

does that make sense?

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#168018 - 07/20/07 09:03 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Nate]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
omg how sweet all those things you wrote about me at the begining of the post. haha. no seriously... i've never been in love tho i fake it well. with me i have a hard time making a distinction between sex and love. i also used to hustle, so i had a whole lotta sex. with a whole lotta men. it was a job and i became so desentitised from allowing people to have me, that it's so not something i ever feel passionate about. when i am in a relationship, i know when they say the right things. i know how to behave and act. i know the role i am suposed to play as the loving boyfriend. but have i honestly loved anyone? no. i feel nothing when it comes to relationships. and i either cheat and they dump me or i dump them before they dump me. to be honest, i can fall in love with many material things. i get off more on a kick ass piece of art than i do any man. so i do have feelings just not when it comes to people. that's not to say that i dont pretend to have feelings. it at least passes the time.


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#168021 - 07/20/07 09:14 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Jarrad]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
oh. P.S. a movie i really connected with was "short bus." the main character is so simmilar in my attitudes toward relationships (and i'm guessing part of yours.) he doesn't allow anyone to get close. anyway.. its VERY sexual. it was acutally ban from the theatres and wasn't allowed to be posted on the IMdb which lists every movie on the planet. so if you can get past essentially watching a movie with porn intermixed, you might be able to draw some conclutions about being close with someone verses not. (but don't hate me if you are triggered to hell or whatever.)


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#168027 - 07/20/07 09:32 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Jarrad]
Nate Offline
Guest

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 94
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
lol -- i won't blame u for my triggers jarrad. ;\)

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#168079 - 07/21/07 01:34 AM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Nate]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Nate, Jarad, you both don't yet realize the effects that your abuse could have on your future relationships. I've been exactly where both of you are; desperately wanting a loving relationship but not able to distinguish between who really loves you and who just wants to fuck you.

Love requires, it demands trust. Those of us who have been so badyly betrayed have a hard time developing trust. We know we want to trust, but we just aren't able to do it. So even with the best intentions, our relationships fail; either because we don't trust our partners or ourselves, or because we sabotage those relationships because, what the hell? He doesn't trust me anyway... either...

I feel for you guys, cause I've been there. It took a whole lotta time and a whole lotta people before I found someone I could trust. It's not easy for us.

Nate, first you have to trust yourself not to let yourself get into an abusive relationship again. If you feel it's not right, stop it. Contrary to what you've learned in the past, you are in control of your life and you deserve to be loved.

Jarrad, you've been seeking love, but mistaking sex for love, and are disappointed and jaded because you haven't found it yet. Sex has been cheapened to the point where it's just another bodily function. It feels good when you take a healthy shit, too, and that's about as important as sex is to you. Just another bodily function that needs to be taken care of. It has no more to do with love than taking a shit does.

But you're both wrong. Nate, love will come when it comes and sex will play a big part in it. If the sex doesn't feel right, then the relationship is probably not right either. Don't stress over it, and don't rush it. Jarrad, finding love will be hard for you because you are too cynical. Sex has become meaningless to you. When you find the right person (I bet it's the other way around, actually) sex will become important once again and all will be right with the world. Sex is not the only reason to have a relationship, but a realtionship with good sex is the closest that two people can ever become.

You both struggle with distorted views of what sex means. Nate, you over-emphasize it to the point of being afraid of it, and Jarrad, you trivialize it to the point of being bored with it. In my opinion, you both are wrong. Sex is not to be feared, or trivialized. My hope and belief is that you will both realize this when... WHEN... you meet the right person. I hope you both do meet this person and can accept it when you do.

My opinion- worth exactly what you paid for it...

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#168181 - 07/21/07 02:39 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Lazarus]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
laz, but all of that isnt because we are abused. its because we are gay. gay guys have sex to just haev sex. not to find love and be in relationships. what i feel is typical of a lot of young gay guys. not nessisarily young abused guys. hoenstly, most gay guys dont even think about relationships until they are in there 30s. at least not serious ones. most dont want to settle down because the world is a buffet of bodies. i cant think of any gay guys that i know, or have heard about that is still with a highschool sweetheart.


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#168283 - 07/21/07 09:43 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Jarrad]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
When is a fuck not just a fuck? It's when you do it with someone you truly love and who truly loves you in return. Otherwise it's just mutual gratification. Gay people do it, straight people do it... we're not all that different. Yes, gay men are more open about sex and have more annonymous sex than other people. But the subject wasn't about sluts like us. It was about sex, and what is good for us.

Until recently, even when I was with someone I thought I truly loved, I could not/would not accept the fact that they really loved me, because I didn't trust them or myself. So the sex was just sex for sex's sake. Nothing more. You think it's hip that you can fuck anybody you want, but you know what? It's just an ego trip. The sex means nothing, but the fact that somebody else was attracted to you is attractive in itself. That's why they call it a 'score'. Yeah! You made a homerun. You go, boy!

I did what you are doing for more years than I care to mention. And in the end, some of it was exciting, like hitting a homerun, but none of it was particularly gratifying. I slept around because I was trying to prove to myself that I was attractive, that I was worth something. In the end, it got to the point where it was no longer worth the effort. Sure, it was flattering to get hit on by an attractive guy, but as time went by I turned more and more of them down. They didn't really want ME, they just wanted a hot fuck with a hot guy. How many times can you get off to the same old porn movie?

Someday, hopefully, you'll find someone you really like who really likes you, and not just for sex, or for talking about sex, or for keeping you company while you hunt for sex; someone who really likes YOU. If you trust yourself enough to trust that person, you might have a chance at a meaningful relationship. That's probably not even on your radar right now, but someday it will be. That's when you'll discover that your abuse really did fuck you up. Because you'll want that relationship, but it will be hard because your boundaries are fucked up, your value system is skewed beyond recognition, and your triggers will come back to bite you in the ass.

Sexual abuse is not the only thing that causes people to act like this, but in my humble opinion, it is a factor in many people. Sexual compulsion, sex addiction are common results of sexual abuse in many men, especailly gay men.

But Jarrad, if you didn't think your sexual abuse was causing some sort of problem in your life you wouldn't be here talking about all of this. You might be in denial, my friend. If you're a slut (and I say that in the kindest possible manner) what made you that way? Is that a healthy lifestyle? Is that how you define yourself and how you want to live your life?

And no, Jarrad; not all gay men are like that. Perhaps in your circle of friends they are, but you know what? Birds of a feather, and all that. I know many gay couples who have been together 10, 20 years or more. I was like you, Jarrad, until I found a man that I really love. I've grown to the point where I actually beleive that he loves me. I don't need other men now. I wouldn't take the chance of hurting his feelings by cheating on him, nor he with me. It hasn't all been wonderful; my triggers bite my ass occasionally because I didn't deal with them properly when I had the chance. But he still loves me. The sex is great, but it's about more than sex.

As hard as it would have been for me to admit when I was 20 or 30, the meaning of life is not all about sex. There is so much more. And because of that simple recognition, even the sex means so much more. It's not just mutual masturbation anymore.

Hope some of this makes sense. Am I wasting my time?

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#168290 - 07/21/07 09:56 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Lazarus]
Scoutvictim Offline
Guest

Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 434
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Laz....no your not wasting your time....

For some here...they may not believe you, but I do.

I hope I can find my "other half" like you have.

Much happiness to you and your man.

Carl

_________________________
Shawn and Ben will always be in my heart....

Happiness is like peeing your pants; Everyone can see it, but only YOU feel the warmth.

Peebles, Ohio WOR alumni, Oct. 2007

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#168644 - 07/23/07 08:20 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Scoutvictim]
Nate Offline
Guest

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 94
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
lazaruz,

thanks for your post. i appreciate the harsh truth. i needed to hear it.

jarrad -- i'm 24 and don't sleep around. i do want a serious relationship. just so ya know it does exist below 30.

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#168792 - 07/24/07 01:37 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Jarrad]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Originally Posted By: Jarrad
= gay guys have sex to just haev sex.


Okay back up...what....hell no!

There are alot of gay guys that fall into that stereotype and use it as an EXCUSE but I will tell you I know plenty of gay guys who dont have sex with random partners cause they cant control their hormones. Humans are the ONLY mammals that CAN control there sexual urges. And we should do that.

I get tired of hearing of the stereotype that because we are gay, we sleep around....we don't hold down relationships....NO. We can have long-term...life long relationships with people who truely love us for us...not for our body. It is our OWN fault for not looking for the proper partner and thats where the effects of our abusers comes in.

We have a completely destroyed views of who is good for us and who we deserve. The first step is realising we are more than pieces of sex meat. We are human beings that deserve to be treated like well...human beings...not like sex toys.

Love does not equal sex and sex does not equal love!! That was my HARDEST concept to get through my mind. Sex is a part of the relationship but you know what...sex is difficult for us. Thats the reason i cant ever bottom. But with my partner I have found that sex is amazing...love is there and it makes it prolly one of best things in life you can experience. Not to sound like a chick here but its love making not just sex.

I have found a wonderful man who loves me and supports me....IT IS POSSIBLE, dont get discouraged.

Brian
(Climbing down off of his soap box)


_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#168796 - 07/24/07 01:52 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Nate]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Okay after that rant...to answer your questions Nate.

Have I ever truely experienced love?

Yes but it wasnt till i experienced it that I realised all the other times were not actually love...just sexual attraction or common bonds. Alot of hormones but no Love.

What kind of obsticles...WOW you got about a day and a half to talk about it..LOL

Seriously though....everything from intamacy issues...trust issues...crankiness...walls...oh man too long of a list. But the more you make yourself aware of what your doing the more you can try to counteract those responses. Also its best to talk to your partner..l.let him know whats going on. If I hadn't talk with mine he wouldn't be with me still because he could not figure out why i act the way I did.

Oh...sex...arrghh. Frustrating. Being open with your partner can help alot. I found myself approaching it as a job...something to get over and done with. A performance of sorts....this was all complicated by the fact I am a top so alot of performance anxiety kicked in. I spent my first 3 gay relationships going at sex wrong. I found out a lot of the expectations that I felt were projected by me...not actually being expected by my partner. I cant say enough about being open with your partner. Also keep in mind that you dont HAVE to have anal sex if that is your phobia. You dont have to have sex in anyway when you are starting out!! If the guy wants you for you....then if you make him wait...he will. If he runs away then you know what??? Probably wasn't in it for you...he was in it for sex.

This all makes sense...especially on the idea if he really wants to know and not wanting to share that with him. However if you want a RELATIONSHIP not just sex with the guy you have to be honest.

Sincerely,
Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#168809 - 07/24/07 02:56 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: pain4ever]
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I have never "made love"...in fact I never allowed myself to be that vulnerable. Sex...well sure...lots of that. I hope I find out what making love is like in this life-time!

Kenn

_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#168810 - 07/24/07 02:58 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Kenn]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
again....sounding like a girl...

Making love is wonderful and so much different than sex.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#168813 - 07/24/07 03:07 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: pain4ever]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: pain4ever
Making love is wonderful and so much different than sex.

...how is that "sounding like a girl"?????


m


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#168814 - 07/24/07 03:08 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: MarkK]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
LOL...built in stereotypes from childhood kickin in...sorry.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#168825 - 07/24/07 05:06 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: pain4ever]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
heh ;\)

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#168863 - 07/24/07 09:55 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: MarkK]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
You don't sound like a girl, Pain. You sound like a well adjusted man to me. So many men thing that showing sensitivity is effeminate, but let me tell you, if more men did it they'd understand how much beauty they were missing out on because they were afraid they'd look like a 'sissy'. Pshaw.

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#168914 - 07/25/07 07:35 AM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: pain4ever]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: pain4ever
Making love is wonderful and so much different than sex.


I second that remark. After being with my wonderful boyfriend for 6 years, I have found that there is a big difference between "getting off" and the type of orgasm experienced when we are really connecting during love making (I admit it does feel kinda awkward calling it that). It has taken me a long time to be able to get to that point of comfort, and I still have work to do.

I remember a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking in my mid 20's (I am 35). I was under the impression that I was not capable of having a loving healthy relationship, I just sort of believed that I was permanently broken, or that fate would always make sure I can't have that, like if I were trapped in a sort of caste system.

I have to tell you, I never thought I could meet someone as fantastic as my guy, and he never ceases to amaze me with his warmth and generosity. I absolutely do not want that to sound like I'm bragging or anything as gross as that, I just want to share that it's all in your mind. It's what you choose to believe about yourself that makes the difference. It just hit me one day that I didn't want to believe that anymore, so I decided to try believing that I AM capable and worth it. I started to feel so much better about myself.

We all deserve the kind of relationship we really want, but think we can't have.

Craig

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#169024 - 07/25/07 08:43 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: cbfull]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
First of all, I was in love with my late wife for the better part of 34 years. After she died I visited a friend and his partner of 30 years. I thought that for me to have a loving relationship with another man was an impossibility. When I saw that my friend and his partner had all the same traits and looks and little loving things that I had with my late wife, I knew I could have that too.

A year after my wife died I found a wonderful guy, about the same age as me. We talked on the phone quite a bit, and after about a month I rode the bike up to see him. It was LOVE at first sight. We've been together ever since. We accept each other for who we are. Sure, things don't always go perfectly smooth, but we're both guys and we've both lived our entire lives longing for a relationship like this.

I wasn't alway faithful to my late wife but I did the best that I could before I started dealing with my abuse issues. I never told anyone about being abused for over 38 years. I acted out. I just buried those feelings from when I was eleven. Now that I have been so lucky to find a second love in my life I know that I'll never be unfaithful to him. This is my second chance, I've dealt with a lot of my issues and when they come up now I realize where it's coming from. My partner will tell me not to go into that dark place, that he's there for me now and will be as long as we live. So, in answer to the original question, YES, there is love out there for gay men. I just had to be ready to find it and recognize it when it happened.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#169101 - 07/26/07 09:10 AM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: MarkK]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Originally Posted By: MarkK
heh ;\)



Yeah...just ranting about stereotypes than I follow one...point well taken.

Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#169103 - 07/26/07 09:13 AM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Lazarus]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
You don't sound like a girl, Pain. You sound like a well adjusted man to me. So many men thing that showing sensitivity is effeminate, but let me tell you, if more men did it they'd understand how much beauty they were missing out on because they were afraid they'd look like a 'sissy'. Pshaw.


LOL...Funny you should talk about the "effeminate" thing...I have accepted my being gay but I can't seem to accept any part of me being "effeminate".

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#169225 - 07/26/07 09:34 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Nate]
Russ2 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 77
Hi Nate,

Thank you so much for taking the time to post on such a meaningful and personal topic. I would just like to say that as a gay male survivor of CSA, it is possible to find true love and to fully enjoy all the pleasures (both emotional and physical) of a life-long relationship.

It may take time to find that one special man, but as long as you are patient, understanding, realistic and maintain a glimmer of hopefulness, then it will very likely happen for you. My husband and I have been happy together (and deeply in love) for over 15 years now, and it just keeps getting better and better each day!

All my best,
Russ


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#170962 - 08/04/07 02:37 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: pain4ever]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
WOW, I almost want to cry for so many reasons. It is a mixture of sad distortions that are consequences of abuse and the beauty of the poins which Lazzarus so wonderfully states. I am the fool who once was so numb that meaningless sex duped me into meaning they liked me or maybe even loved me. In reality they used me and reabused me. What a model I had to set my standards by. Annonymous gay sex, or sex that is a distortion of love is the result of unhealthy boundaries and beliefs. I would be devestated after the guys were done and they never called again unless it was for a quickie. That cycle played over for me all of my life and I am only beginning to see the truth and take control. To say that ALL gay men are sluts is mischarecterizing the truth. As Laz said birds of a feather.

I was numb for years I was angry and mistrusting or foolishly too trusting because I wanted to believe someone actually valued me or might possibly love me. How is that for insecurity? Just one more consequence of CSA. I believe Jarrad and Nate are still a little numb, in denial and deep down crave to be loved. I don't want to pretend to know your feelings but if you are survivors then I'd say my guess it pretty close to the truth. I hope to one day find a good loving man who will embrace me and I hope I could do the same. I have a long way to go and a short time to get there but I have hope. That is why I am grateful to be part of this group. Laz and many others can help me and they have. I fully support everyone here who struggles, has pain and tries. I want to see each of us recover our dignity and find out what love , trust, boundaries and respect are.

Amen to Laz. You are so correct. I wish you a lifetime of happiness. I hope we all find that special someone and discover ourselves in the process.
Peace, Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#170965 - 08/04/07 04:14 PM Re: when a man loves a man [Re: Danbuff]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Dan,

Thank you for the kind words. It's very nice to have one's feelings and opinions validated by someone else. You've made my day.

The key to finding a healthy and fulfilling relationship, I think, is to be ready to accept it when it happens. That requires that we, as CSA survivors, have done at least some of our homework in healing. Realizing our past mistakes and determining not to repeat them. Opening ourselves up to being just a little bit vulnerable with the people we trust. Learning from our experience the difference between who is really interested in us vs who is just looking for his next score. Finally, and most importantly, it means believing we deserve a healthy relationship.

That's a lot of homework! It's not surprising that many people haven't gotten to that point... hell, it only took me 40 years! LOL I am glad to see anybody who is here searching for help, but especially glad to see the younger guys, who have a chance to change their lives now and not spend years or decades in the emotional (and sexual) limbo that I went through.

I am happy to be of help whenever and however I can.

Thanks again, Dan

Ric

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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