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#164721 - 07/04/07 10:44 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Sometimes it is much easier to lash out at the unseen. We can scream, rant, rave and vent our anger, confusion and hurt at this unseen 'whatever' because it is not going to punch us out. A flesh and blood thing may just do that. After all, it was a flesh and blood less-than animal that hurt us.

Where was this unknown deity hiding out? I do not know. Why was it allowed to happen? I do not know. Why were Hitler and Stalin allowed to kill millions? Why does society today make boys and men feel sleazy because they were molested or raped? We are males, we are macho, we are supposed to repel our attackers and all that bullshit. So what if we were only 4. 9, 15 or so. We failed to live up to our mythological image.

I don't think a god waves his magic wand and says "sorry, it's your turn today for anything to happen." Or is there really a devil, evil fighting good? Don't have the answers. Have my point of view, but am not going to shove it down any one's craw.
Stuff to think about, that's all. We pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living.

froggy in a world of his own say some.

_________________________
??

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#164755 - 07/04/07 03:24 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Bad things are allowed to happen b/c of men's free will. If God prevented them from happening or stepped in and stopped them, then He wouldn't be giving us free will and instead would be orchestrating as though we are His puppets. He is sad when bad things happen, and He is there for us to help us heal from them when we ask Him in prayer. That is why the world is truly a "free" place and can therefore be a very dangerous one at times. B/c all of us, including our abusers, have free will to make their own choices.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#164780 - 07/04/07 06:48 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Brokenhearted]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
if you admit to freewill then you admit there is no god ,or at least that he has no magical powers ,or at least he is one piss poor parent ,he creates all these children ,sets them down on earth and then just walks away? dont teach them how to live or even leave fucking directions on how shit works ,just says well im leaving you here but when you die i'll see you again and we will go back over your life and see if you measure up? if thats not abuse its at least one hell of a case of neglect. i agree 100% that man has freewill,freewill makes god obsolete. and if the bible is supposed to be the guide why the hell is it a language nobody can understand?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164782 - 07/04/07 07:26 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if you admit to freewill then you admit there is no god ,or at least that he has no magical powers ,or at least he is one piss poor parent


I really don't understand your logic in that statement, since there seems to be no logic in it at all. It's like saying because someone across town in mowing their yard, then I don't exist. I guess you can think the above if you want to, that's o.k. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote:

he creates all these children ,sets them down on earth and then just walks away?


Who said he walked away? I feel his presence in my life everyday. There was a period in my life when I wasn't looking for it, though. But I don't feel he has walked away from me. Quite the contrary, I feel he is very near when I need him most.

Quote:

dont teach them how to live or even leave fucking directions on how shit works ,just says well im leaving you here but when you die i'll see you again and we will go back over your life and see if you measure up?


I'm not sure what you're looking for, something like a 3-ring binder in English and Espanol? I mean, literally and specifically, what are you expecting? Personally, I see the Bible as my instruction manual for life. I know a lot of people probably roll their eyes at that, but it works for me. I guess I'm really not understanding what your expectations are here, and why any of us should really be expecting anything.

Quote:

if thats not abuse its at least one hell of a case of neglect.


Again, I guess you can think that if you want to. I see it as an example of how much God loves me, i.e., he created the universe and all of us in it so that we could have fellowship and a relationship with him in it. I don't see that as neglect.

Quote:

i agree 100% that man has freewill,freewill makes god obsolete.


No, I don't think so. It simply means we aren't puppets, as previously stated. Otherwise, all our lives would simply be like a cartoon on television with no real purpose or outcome.

Quote:

and if the bible is supposed to be the guide why the hell is it a language nobody can understand?


There are many translations of the Bible that have been done in everyday language, such as the Living Bible, etc. They are written in a style that is very easy to understand. If you'd like, I can make some good recommendations for you, or would even be glad to send you one. I know a lot of people don't read the Bible because they remember the King James Version from their youth and found it difficult to read because of all the "thee", "thou", "verily", etc., phrasings. Many newer translations are written in contemporary English phrasings, making it much easier to understand.

_________________________
Eddie

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#164787 - 07/04/07 07:56 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: EGL]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I want to take a minute and thank ALL of you guys for your open honesty. It makes this kind of discussion work - the fact we are all willing to listen to each other.

I feel very honored to be part of this discussion.

M

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#164798 - 07/04/07 08:36 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i dont expect anything from god and i aint been disappointed yet,maybe im just stupid or at least i was stupid as a kid cause you know what? i fucking expected god to save me! never quite got over the fact that he didnt. convince the kid in the closet that there really is a god. the response about logic dont make sense to me about mowing the yard? my statement is only repeating what those who believe have told me ,everyone ,even in this thread ,its your logic not mine ,god wont interfere ,cause he gaves us freewill,god has no power to change things or fix them or stop them .your logic not mine,i believed that he could do all those things so whose belief was stronger? i believed with the innocence of a child . i mean does anybody understand? i really believed that god was gonna show up at any minute ,cause thats what i was taught ,but i didnt lose my faith over night ,i hung onto it as long as an 11 year old could when he was living in hell . im not saying dont believe in god ,but for me its about being fooled i think ,god fooled me once ,never again

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164802 - 07/04/07 08:50 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
Everyone can believe as they wish, obviously. You believe as you do, I believe as I do. Which is essentially what faith comes down to - what you believe. Above you said that God won't interfer or change things or fix them or stop them - I believe that he can and does. Why it happens in some instances and not others, I have no idea. And I know that no one on this earth does either, and will never know in their lifetime here. No one is going to suddenly come upon a realization that solves this question that has been on men's minds for all eternity.

As to why he didn't intervene in your or my abuse, or the abuse of all the countless others, I don't know. I believe he could have. But I've made my peace with him over the fact that he didn't. What helps me is to know that I can use the past to make me a better person than if I had not experienced all that, and to use it to help someone else along the way who needs help. To me, that's taking the evil and turning it into the good.

_________________________
Eddie

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#164851 - 07/05/07 04:21 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: pain4ever
I am not trying to attack anyone or God, or anyones faith, I simply want to understand how people can have faith in God after what happened to us all.


Rather than rehearse the arguments pro and con, I'll just say that what gives me more inspiration and hope than anything else is the faith I see in the lives and thinking of some of my closest friends, including Former Texan and EGL. I look at them and see something I wish I had, but don't and don't know how to get.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but there it is anyway.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164852 - 07/05/07 04:30 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
im not saying dont believe in god ,but for me its about being fooled i think ,god fooled me once ,never again


I remember feeling totally abandoned by God. I would look at this big pic we had in the church showing Jesus with kids all around him, happy and safe, and then I would remember my last time in the pastor's study with the abuser (who wasn't the pastor, I hasten to add) and ask, "Why not me too? How come I don't get protected? Or helped? Or comforted? Or whatever else it is that God does."

I think it's good you're so honest about how you feel and in fact I think you're a pretty spiritual guy, despite your resentments and anger, which I totally understand and wouldn't begrudge you for a second.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164869 - 07/05/07 08:56 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Thanks guys for all of this discussion. It has really helped, immensely.

I guess it come down to my needing to realize that we have free will and I am still angry with God for a number of reasons.

I see everyones points and I realize that having faith in something is totally necessary to complete my healing journey. For me though there is a seriously huge other issue aside from the abuse that I need to come to terms with to God.

Shadow...I see your side...I feel your anger and distrust in an all mighty deity. However I am starting to see, like you, that the little guy inside of me (You...the kid on the closet for me its the Boy hanging in a barn) does not define me. Shadow...you are so much more than that kid in the closet. I hope you can see that.

It comes down stoping the "why me" which I had thought I had dropped but apparently in my spirituality its still there.

I saw now "What happenned, happenned but it does not define me and its not my place to ask why because I will never know why" I have to move on...stop my little pity party (which I thought was over too, but apparently not) and realise its all over now. I guess I could say God did help me, he gave me the strength to move on, to stand up to my abusers and last of all kept me alive when I should have died.

Brian



_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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