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#163244 - 06/25/07 09:04 AM Thing thats tough for me...
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Okay guys,

Here is my thing. I have dealt with alot of my abuse. Abuse by the hands of guys who were suppossed to be men of God. I have lost my faith.

I cried out for God to help me over and over. If he truely sees everything and cares for everyone...then why did he let it happen?

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#163255 - 06/25/07 09:24 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Don't forget what Judas did. So why should some clergy be any different? Humans make choices and will be held accountable.

Faith in what? People, the institutions? Faith should indicate you believe in a Diety, but you are free to choose any institution that appeals to you. As stated before, you will find God in the goodness in others. Watch, then decide.

froggy

_________________________
??

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#163256 - 06/25/07 09:27 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: froggy12]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
My faith that is lost is in a higher power that watches over us and protects us. How could he let this crap happen?

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#163277 - 06/25/07 10:51 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
we spend so much time talking about and giving praise to a fairy tale,why? why is god so damn important if he cant or wont do anything ? whats has god done for you lately? and if the answer is surviving i bet lots of guys will debate if thats a good thing or not. as we grow up we leave the fairy tales behind right,are there any wars fought over the tooth fairy,or santa claus?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#163278 - 06/25/07 10:52 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
LOL...right on SK. I can not blindly beleive in something that was suppossed to be my "savior" where was he when I needed saving?

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#163280 - 06/25/07 10:56 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
Dexx Offline
New Here

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 29
who told you he was supposed to save you in the first place? i thought everyone had free will and he wasn't going to intervene anyways.

_________________________
I knew I was un-wanted when my bath toys were a radio and a toaster.

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#163485 - 06/26/07 04:53 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Dexx]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Who said it is "He?" A bunch of wandering goat herders in the desert said that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when. Just another mirage...or sipping on fermented date juice? 'tis a puzzlement.

froggy

_________________________
??

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#163527 - 06/26/07 08:40 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: froggy12]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
i dont understand why people turn to god... first of all science has pretty well proven most of the bible wrong but second why do we spend our time looking for the good in somthing that we cant see touch or feel why do we search for god's love when realy if people cared a little bit more for the people around them we would be much better off.


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#163548 - 06/26/07 09:46 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brian,

I feel with your dilemma. I was abused by a Scout leader, but he was also a deacon in our church and presented himself to me as a bigshot and very powerful man - all to get what he wanted of course. The way he used religion as one of his tools to manipulate and devastate me slowly wrecked me spiritually, and I cannot say with any confidence that this is an area of recovery in which I will succeed.

I don't think there are any easy answers to your question but I can recommend a book that helped me a lot: When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold S. Kushner. the author is a rabbi who lost his son at age 14 to a slow wasting disease. The book isn't a specifically Jewish view, and you can read it without getting bogged down in the theology. It was helpful to me because I felt I was in the company of someone else who was struggling with a similar question.

Have you considered attending a Weekend of Recovery dedicated to clergy abuse? This might be a decisive experience for you, and certainly it would be helpful to interact with other guys with similar issues.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#163993 - 06/29/07 09:09 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Larry,

I honestly have a problem, like Theatrekid, with blindly beleiving in something. I am very analytical...I work in computers...and I simply have a problem swallowing the whole thing like my entire family does.

Besides the obvious effect of being abused by clergy. I just wanna know where this suppossed God was??

Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164026 - 06/29/07 12:32 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brian,

I have that problem too. I like to line up my ducks in order and then start shooting. I make lists of points and work on them; I journal and then analyze my journal. And so on.

And I ask the same question you do. At one point I also wondered how any kid who has done the things that I had to do - and in the church itself - could ever be loved or wanted by God. But now I see that I was innocent - I was being manipulated and controlled. I didn't know I had a choice, so for me those choices didn't exist.

The real problem now is one of connecting with God. I don't feel there is a barrier between me and God; I feel there's a terrible void.

The problem for guys who are rational and analytical, Daniel, is that we are assuming that this kind of thinking will provide the solutions we need. I wonder if that's really true, or at least that won't take us all the way with CSA issues. There is so much about CSA that's entirely emotional, just blind hot feelings. And where is the sense in CSA, after all; what possesses an abuser to think it makes sense to seek sex from a firghtened defenseless child?

Ultimately our recovery does require faith of some kind. At least faith in ourselves, a willingness to take risks that seem to fly in the face of everything we think we know. And perhaps faith in something beyond that. Do we call it the indomitable human spirit that we all share? Do we call it God? Does it matter? If there is a benevolent Creator "out there" do we need him? For what, if it turns out he won't or can't protect children?

I don't have the answers to all these questions and in any case they get controversial. These are just my thoughts, and all I can say further is that these things trouble me and I wish I could connect to whatever source it is that could help me.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164033 - 06/29/07 01:05 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Who says we are not supposed to question anything? And that includes God. Blind faith is nice but I'm a cynic. Science is wonderful and like a god, has given us atomic weapons, lethal poisons, medicines that work and do not. Life can be easier or not, thanks to science. But where in hell do politicians comes from? They can be viler than any clergy, give sleaze a new interpretation, and make Attila The Hun seem like a gentlemman.

It's all in the perspective of "what is?"

froggy

_________________________
??

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#164234 - 06/30/07 10:51 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: froggy12]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Heck, I'm a believer in God, but I never started growing and healing in my life till I got angry at God, I can't say he provided me all the answers to my anger, but through my anger I did find a sense of peace in it all that allows me to let all the anger, recrimination, etc. go.

That's my journey, and I don't really know what questions or answers will come my way in the future. My journey takes me one day, one step, one growth experience at at time. I don't expect anyone else to have the same journey I do, but for me I just decided to let God see to the greater things of the universe.

I believe there will come a time when the answers to my great questions in life will be answered. Till that time it's still one day at a time.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#164580 - 07/03/07 09:00 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: WalkingSouth]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
There is only one question I want answered...Why was I treated like I was without protection or help from a benevolent omnipresent God I worshipped?

I know you all cant answer it...its pointless really.

I now have faith in myself...which was instilled by therapy. Thats who I heal for...and more then that I heal for my daughter.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164585 - 07/03/07 11:03 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
wouldn't be called "faith" if it was easy, or provable.

assurance of things hoped for
conviction of things not seen

if i had the answers, i'd have no need for the faith.

M

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#164592 - 07/03/07 12:35 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Time for me to go out on a limb...


I hear plenty of anger on this thread, and it's understandable anger. What I don't understand is the faith-bashing. Fairy tale? I don't think so. Science proven the bible wrong? Actually, I've heard quite the opposite. You wanna vent, I'll listen. I will go to the ends of the earth to give someone an ear over heart-felt anger, even towards God. Even I can stake my claim over such matters since my third perp was a church counselor. We're here for each other, and I want to be here for people. But faith-bashing is hard to not take personal, folks.

The first person who ever gave a crud about worthless me was someone who wanted to pray with me when I was 13. He was the bus driver in 7th grade and he gave me some hope in an otherwise hopeless life. Up to that point, I was nothing to everyone.



Edited by FormerTexan (07/03/07 12:50 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#164596 - 07/03/07 01:09 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
FT...

I have no HATE for God...just tons of questions and am having problems finding the faith that i lost years ago. I am trying to get other takes on this. I am not trying to attack anyone or God, or anyones faith, I simply want to understand how people can have faith in God after what happened to us all.

My issues are two fold as well....as I am gay. I beleive that God made me the way I am and if God is infailable then how could he say what I am is wrong?

I know....opening big sensitive issues here...but isnt that what the forum for spirituality is for? Discussing our spirtuality, or in my case the lack there of.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164600 - 07/03/07 01:26 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
P4E,

"I simply want to understand how people can have faith in God after what happened to us all."

And I totally understand that goal. It's the potshots I was hearing that I didn't care for, and I refered to them in my above post. Legitimate questions I can understand. But bashing has no place here. I don't make posts insulting atheists or their beliefs, even though I can't fathom how they think.

The way I see it, God is not gonna stand in the way of someone making a choice in life, even if it hurts me in some way. If God made my choices for me, I would be a robot. I would have no freewill. I have made stupid choices in life that I thought were the right thing to do. God never stood in my way. He also didn't stand in my way when I said something that hurt someone. Would I regret that later - sure. But the damage was done, I said something hurtful. All I can do is try to make it right later. God didn't stop me from hurting someone anymore than He would stop me from helping someone. It's not God's place to appear in a vision, stand in my way of doing something and say "NO."

That being said, he won't stop a perp from making a hurtful choice either, as far as I know. I could be running short on that rationale, but it's hard to see any other way, at this time.



Edited by FormerTexan (07/03/07 01:31 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#164602 - 07/03/07 01:38 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
FT...what about Psalms 91???

2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.


15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.


I called on him...time and time again...yet nothing....it continued.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164603 - 07/03/07 01:42 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Psalm 18 1-3

1 I love you, O LORD, my strength.
2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation, my stronghold.

3 I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise,
and I am saved from my enemies.

Psalm 121:7-8
121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
121:8 The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

I can keep going...so many verses on how he is to protect us and will protect us...yet even as faithful as I was...I was not protected...just like so many here!



_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164604 - 07/03/07 01:50 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Ever read Job? I turned to that book back in '95 when I thought everything was going down the toilet and I got some understanding from it.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#164605 - 07/03/07 01:52 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Yes, I read the bible religiously...in a very religous family...found 13 churches my grandfather and his father. My grandfather BEING ONE OF MY PERPS.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164606 - 07/03/07 01:54 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Yeah, my mother was one of mine and yet tried to wear a mask of religious impression from time to time.

I turned to Job because it was all I had to make sense of what was happening to me at the time.





Edited by FormerTexan (07/03/07 01:58 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#164608 - 07/03/07 01:58 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Well...I am starting to think...no matter where I look for my answers, I will never find them (and I know maybe I am not worthy of knowing the answers) and my faith may never be restored because of my betrayed trust by the most "spiritual" man I knew....make that men.

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164610 - 07/03/07 02:04 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
I will be the first to admit I don't have all the answers. I just believe in my heart there has to be a way to reconcile these things. We live in a totally fallen world. There's so much happening in the world that I cannot control. I can only look out for me, and try to lift up other tired folks along the way.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#164615 - 07/03/07 02:29 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
this is a difficult thread - trying to put voice to why I believe has never been easy, though I don't understand why. and of course, not having many memories of my past, I don't exactly feel qualified to talk to people who remember with painful detail every moment ...

at the same time, I find it difficult to remain quiet when I see other struggling ...

I know enough to know the burning and frequent "falling" on my head could have easily killed me. But I'm still here.

I have found that therapists and councelors that have no experience with SA on boys have little chance of helping me cope. So if I can help one person - just one - because of what I've been through, then (for me) my past makes more sense.

Not because I value myself less - but because I value others so much more. Yes, my pain was bad - obviously - I've blocked out years. But I was never nailed to a tree to save people who were spitting on me and beating me.

I'm going to step down now and hope I haven't offended anyone...

M
__________________________
Hanging on by just fingertips is still hanging on


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#164626 - 07/03/07 03:30 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Mark, you haven't offended anyone I think with what you posted -- I actually think you put it very well. And I, too, find it difficult to put to words why I believe and have faith as I do. I think the reason I get offended when I see "faith bashing", (i.e., saying what I base my faith on is akin to simple fairy tales), is that I view faith as something very central to my core. I guess it could be called the soul, if you will, but I do not think of faith as a thought process -- I view it as a physical part of my makeup. It's just who I am as a person and cannot be separated from me. That may be a weird way of looking at it, but it's how I've always viewed my faith, and I realize it may not be applicable to others, even those who have a faith in God.

P4E, and others looking for the answer to "why me?" -- I don't have that answer, but I like the way Mark put it above, which is that if my pain that I've been through causes me to help someone else, then I have a little better understanding of it. Like FT, I don't believe God consciousless wanted me to go through all the crap that I did, but being that it happened, I think He can use that experience in me to help others.

We often hear the question of "Why does God allow x or y to happen?" As Andy noted, it's the concept of a fallen world, otherwise we would be living in Eden right now. We are human, brokenness exists in our world, but I truly believe that we will never have answers to the Why question this side of our mortality.


_________________________
Eddie

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#164677 - 07/04/07 12:28 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: EGL]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
There are many good questions being raised here. I have asked them myself with no concrete answer. The only thing I could come up with is the way God has created us with limited understanding. We do not have the same type of mind that God has. If we did we would all be God. Therefore we cannot understand all his ways. This includes why bad things happen to good people, why he gave us free will to hurt each other with, and "where does the love of God go when the pain turns the minutes to hours". These things I have accepted as mysteries that the answers to will not be revealed to us in this life. These questions just do not seem to have answers in this plane of existence so why beat yourself up looking for them. I have spent much time trying to find them and I just can't locate the answers.

Mark


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#164695 - 07/04/07 02:11 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Mark Antony]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
For me the questions being asked here are not questions that one man can ever answer definitively for another man. The best we can do is state our belief and live our life in agreement with our convictions.

Having said that, I'm not sure there was ever any stones aimed at any one person in this thread, I read a lot of questioning here and consider those questions good and legitimate, but no one of us will ever be able to convince another in this realm. These answers come from a conviction born out of deep personal struggle and even heartache. Not all of us are going to choose the same road when it comes to these things, and I would hope that no one would resent or think less of the other because of the choices they make in this regard.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#164709 - 07/04/07 05:14 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: WalkingSouth]
pietie Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 326
Loc: South Africa
There is so many questions in here that I believe we will never have the answers to. As for myself. My faith is the cornerstone of my recovery. If it was not for my faith I know I would not still have been here.

So why did God allow this to happen to me/us? I don't know, but I believe that He can use the pain and struggle I/we went through to help others going through the same. I know that because of what happened to me I am so protective of my two boys, something that might have been different if it didnt happen to me.

For a long time I blamed God for what happened to me. I still sometimes get angry at Him but I believe He knows why and don't condemn me for it. But I have to agree with something that was said earlier. God do not want to interfere with our own free will. If He did He could "force" us all to be christians and believe in Him. That is not how He operates. Adam and Eve had the choice to eat of the fruit and they did. We have the choice to believe in Him or not. Our perps had the choice to hurt us or not. If God intervened in that He would no longer be a fair God as He then took away the choice. I beleive He was tehre with me when it happened and I beleive He was hurt by it. But all is a fight between good and eveil. I also believe He was the one that "helped" me by not allowing any of my suicide attempts to be succesful.

For one minute imagine the following scenario: You are a father watching your children play outside. You are watching through the thick window in a room from which you are tied too (referring to free will). Then somebody comes and hurt your child. You can not get out because you are tied but you have to watch what is happening. You will be disgusted and hurt by this and not being able to do anything. The same with God. Our free will to choose can not enable Him to stop it from happening. He can however comfort us afterwards and cry with us.

My second perp was in the church as well. But I do not want to blame God any longer. It keeps me from having a relationship with Him. It keeps me from getting free from things that hold me back. I am on my way forward. I want to be healed and I will not let anything keep me from recovery. I beleive that God is the only one that can truely make us free. I have proven it, spirituality and faith and a close relationship with God and for me it has been my refuge. Since I started living closer to Him and focussing on my relationship with Him things have changed. It has been 7 weeks since the last time I was depressed at all. Not because of me but because of Him that helps me and in whom I find my strength.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#164721 - 07/04/07 10:44 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Sometimes it is much easier to lash out at the unseen. We can scream, rant, rave and vent our anger, confusion and hurt at this unseen 'whatever' because it is not going to punch us out. A flesh and blood thing may just do that. After all, it was a flesh and blood less-than animal that hurt us.

Where was this unknown deity hiding out? I do not know. Why was it allowed to happen? I do not know. Why were Hitler and Stalin allowed to kill millions? Why does society today make boys and men feel sleazy because they were molested or raped? We are males, we are macho, we are supposed to repel our attackers and all that bullshit. So what if we were only 4. 9, 15 or so. We failed to live up to our mythological image.

I don't think a god waves his magic wand and says "sorry, it's your turn today for anything to happen." Or is there really a devil, evil fighting good? Don't have the answers. Have my point of view, but am not going to shove it down any one's craw.
Stuff to think about, that's all. We pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living.

froggy in a world of his own say some.

_________________________
??

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#164755 - 07/04/07 03:24 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
Brokenhearted Offline
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Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Bad things are allowed to happen b/c of men's free will. If God prevented them from happening or stepped in and stopped them, then He wouldn't be giving us free will and instead would be orchestrating as though we are His puppets. He is sad when bad things happen, and He is there for us to help us heal from them when we ask Him in prayer. That is why the world is truly a "free" place and can therefore be a very dangerous one at times. B/c all of us, including our abusers, have free will to make their own choices.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#164780 - 07/04/07 06:48 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Brokenhearted]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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if you admit to freewill then you admit there is no god ,or at least that he has no magical powers ,or at least he is one piss poor parent ,he creates all these children ,sets them down on earth and then just walks away? dont teach them how to live or even leave fucking directions on how shit works ,just says well im leaving you here but when you die i'll see you again and we will go back over your life and see if you measure up? if thats not abuse its at least one hell of a case of neglect. i agree 100% that man has freewill,freewill makes god obsolete. and if the bible is supposed to be the guide why the hell is it a language nobody can understand?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164782 - 07/04/07 07:26 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
if you admit to freewill then you admit there is no god ,or at least that he has no magical powers ,or at least he is one piss poor parent


I really don't understand your logic in that statement, since there seems to be no logic in it at all. It's like saying because someone across town in mowing their yard, then I don't exist. I guess you can think the above if you want to, that's o.k. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote:

he creates all these children ,sets them down on earth and then just walks away?


Who said he walked away? I feel his presence in my life everyday. There was a period in my life when I wasn't looking for it, though. But I don't feel he has walked away from me. Quite the contrary, I feel he is very near when I need him most.

Quote:

dont teach them how to live or even leave fucking directions on how shit works ,just says well im leaving you here but when you die i'll see you again and we will go back over your life and see if you measure up?


I'm not sure what you're looking for, something like a 3-ring binder in English and Espanol? I mean, literally and specifically, what are you expecting? Personally, I see the Bible as my instruction manual for life. I know a lot of people probably roll their eyes at that, but it works for me. I guess I'm really not understanding what your expectations are here, and why any of us should really be expecting anything.

Quote:

if thats not abuse its at least one hell of a case of neglect.


Again, I guess you can think that if you want to. I see it as an example of how much God loves me, i.e., he created the universe and all of us in it so that we could have fellowship and a relationship with him in it. I don't see that as neglect.

Quote:

i agree 100% that man has freewill,freewill makes god obsolete.


No, I don't think so. It simply means we aren't puppets, as previously stated. Otherwise, all our lives would simply be like a cartoon on television with no real purpose or outcome.

Quote:

and if the bible is supposed to be the guide why the hell is it a language nobody can understand?


There are many translations of the Bible that have been done in everyday language, such as the Living Bible, etc. They are written in a style that is very easy to understand. If you'd like, I can make some good recommendations for you, or would even be glad to send you one. I know a lot of people don't read the Bible because they remember the King James Version from their youth and found it difficult to read because of all the "thee", "thou", "verily", etc., phrasings. Many newer translations are written in contemporary English phrasings, making it much easier to understand.

_________________________
Eddie

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#164787 - 07/04/07 07:56 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: EGL]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I want to take a minute and thank ALL of you guys for your open honesty. It makes this kind of discussion work - the fact we are all willing to listen to each other.

I feel very honored to be part of this discussion.

M

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#164798 - 07/04/07 08:36 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
i dont expect anything from god and i aint been disappointed yet,maybe im just stupid or at least i was stupid as a kid cause you know what? i fucking expected god to save me! never quite got over the fact that he didnt. convince the kid in the closet that there really is a god. the response about logic dont make sense to me about mowing the yard? my statement is only repeating what those who believe have told me ,everyone ,even in this thread ,its your logic not mine ,god wont interfere ,cause he gaves us freewill,god has no power to change things or fix them or stop them .your logic not mine,i believed that he could do all those things so whose belief was stronger? i believed with the innocence of a child . i mean does anybody understand? i really believed that god was gonna show up at any minute ,cause thats what i was taught ,but i didnt lose my faith over night ,i hung onto it as long as an 11 year old could when he was living in hell . im not saying dont believe in god ,but for me its about being fooled i think ,god fooled me once ,never again

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164802 - 07/04/07 08:50 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Everyone can believe as they wish, obviously. You believe as you do, I believe as I do. Which is essentially what faith comes down to - what you believe. Above you said that God won't interfer or change things or fix them or stop them - I believe that he can and does. Why it happens in some instances and not others, I have no idea. And I know that no one on this earth does either, and will never know in their lifetime here. No one is going to suddenly come upon a realization that solves this question that has been on men's minds for all eternity.

As to why he didn't intervene in your or my abuse, or the abuse of all the countless others, I don't know. I believe he could have. But I've made my peace with him over the fact that he didn't. What helps me is to know that I can use the past to make me a better person than if I had not experienced all that, and to use it to help someone else along the way who needs help. To me, that's taking the evil and turning it into the good.

_________________________
Eddie

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#164851 - 07/05/07 04:21 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: pain4ever
I am not trying to attack anyone or God, or anyones faith, I simply want to understand how people can have faith in God after what happened to us all.


Rather than rehearse the arguments pro and con, I'll just say that what gives me more inspiration and hope than anything else is the faith I see in the lives and thinking of some of my closest friends, including Former Texan and EGL. I look at them and see something I wish I had, but don't and don't know how to get.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but there it is anyway.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164852 - 07/05/07 04:30 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
im not saying dont believe in god ,but for me its about being fooled i think ,god fooled me once ,never again


I remember feeling totally abandoned by God. I would look at this big pic we had in the church showing Jesus with kids all around him, happy and safe, and then I would remember my last time in the pastor's study with the abuser (who wasn't the pastor, I hasten to add) and ask, "Why not me too? How come I don't get protected? Or helped? Or comforted? Or whatever else it is that God does."

I think it's good you're so honest about how you feel and in fact I think you're a pretty spiritual guy, despite your resentments and anger, which I totally understand and wouldn't begrudge you for a second.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164869 - 07/05/07 08:56 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Thanks guys for all of this discussion. It has really helped, immensely.

I guess it come down to my needing to realize that we have free will and I am still angry with God for a number of reasons.

I see everyones points and I realize that having faith in something is totally necessary to complete my healing journey. For me though there is a seriously huge other issue aside from the abuse that I need to come to terms with to God.

Shadow...I see your side...I feel your anger and distrust in an all mighty deity. However I am starting to see, like you, that the little guy inside of me (You...the kid on the closet for me its the Boy hanging in a barn) does not define me. Shadow...you are so much more than that kid in the closet. I hope you can see that.

It comes down stoping the "why me" which I had thought I had dropped but apparently in my spirituality its still there.

I saw now "What happenned, happenned but it does not define me and its not my place to ask why because I will never know why" I have to move on...stop my little pity party (which I thought was over too, but apparently not) and realise its all over now. I guess I could say God did help me, he gave me the strength to move on, to stand up to my abusers and last of all kept me alive when I should have died.

Brian



_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164872 - 07/05/07 09:16 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
sometimes staying alive is not a blessing more like a curse,wonder if god knows how disappointed i was to wake up again every morning ? i dont think its a pity party ,admitting i got fucked by life is being realistic not self pity shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164875 - 07/05/07 09:22 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
I agree, admitting that isn't self-pity. It's just facts and reality.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#164876 - 07/05/07 09:22 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Shadow,

Please....I was aiming the pity party comment at myself...not you. I faced the facts but i found myself in a continual spiral of why...and self-pity. Like I said I was commenting on my own problem. I was not attacking you.

I too was there....cried that I woke up each morning to live that horrific nightmare of a childhood. Yes what happenned to us was God awful horribly wrong and horrific but you know what???? You survived it!!!!!! You are no longer a victim!!!

Dont continue to let it define you and your existance!

Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164898 - 07/05/07 12:48 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Quote:
I am not trying to attack anyone or God, or anyones faith, I simply want to understand how people can have faith in God after what happened to us all.


It's a hell of a lot better than the alternative...

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#164901 - 07/05/07 01:01 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: WalkingSouth]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
WalkingSouth,

What is the alternative?? That we are alone...no greater power looking after us? We die...we actually die...no afterlife? That we are the "masters" of our own life?

Is it about control? Do we not want to beleive that we are in control of our own life?

Brian

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164911 - 07/05/07 01:47 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Brian,

Hmmm..... You may die if you wish, but I think it would be a bit difficult to be the master of, and in control of your life while dead.

I'd much rather live for eternity in a place where there are no abusers, no evil, no emotional pain, etc. I'd much rather explore the universe at my leisure and learn the secrets of the atom. I'd rather make love in a world where there is no memory of abuse to cloud my enjoyment of it just when it's getting good. I'd rather be free to study, to learn, to build, to travel, to do any of the things I enjoy or am curious about, when and if I wish to do them, and to know that I have all of eternity in which to do it, free from any of the evil humanity currently knows.

That is why I believe.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#164914 - 07/05/07 01:54 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
sometimes staying alive is not a blessing more like a curse,wonder if god knows how disappointed i was to wake up again every morning?

I've had those days when staying alive didn't seem much like a blessing, but if I had died then, I would have missed out on things... Maybe not "stop the world, this is wonderful" stuff - but still stuff I wouldn't want to miss.
Personally - I think God knows. I also believes He weeps with us.

I would also agree that admitting my past is being realistic - though if I spend my life moaning about the past and not trying to recover my life, for me that would be self pity. And has been, I'm sorry to admit ... but no more. I now strive for the truth, regardless of how "good" or "bad" it might be - just so it is truth.

Hang in there...

denver_mark
_________________________
Hanging on by just my fingernails is still hanging on...

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#164917 - 07/05/07 01:59 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
"Hmmm..... You may die if you wish, but I think it would be a bit difficult to be the master of, and in control of your life while dead. "

No No I wasnt saying I want to die! I was saying those are the questions I have...Is there truely an after life?? If we dont beleive that then what is the alternative?

I was asking what is the alternatives as you answered....

What is the alternative to have an after life...total death?
What is the alternative to beleive that God controls our life?? We are the masters of our life?

Those were questions on the alternatives...what do you think the alternatives are to beleiving in God and that entire faith?




_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#164921 - 07/05/07 02:19 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
p4e its cool k?i didnt think it was aimed at me at all. but i dont think you doing it was a pity party either. is it just that men know how limited they are that we have to believe we will go on? also and walking i know this dont apply to you ,but how many people follow that line of thinking and dont do the things in their life today that they should? well i'll put it off till tomorrow cause i got eternity .is it better to assume you will have a second chance at life or live it like this is the one shot i get? to me thats why healing is so imperative it has to happen now cause if i die next week id like at least one day of freedom. faith is a very strange thing to me cause faith is about believing ,i dont think its about what you have faith in as long as you have the ability to have faith ,the rock that sits in my front yard could be god to me and who can argue its not ,if i believe? i want to be honest without being an ass ,but whats being described is exactly the way i felt when i was a kid , and look what that faith got me. also one person tells me god cant interfere ,but the next one tells me i see god doing things in my life ,direct opposite views of the same faith. people tell me god cant help ,but god will help ? its less confusing to me to say ok maybe god created us ,doubtfull but maybe . but after that god is done with us ,freewill remember? why would god not help us yet still give us endless chances ? if i believe in your god i believe it makes perfect sense for him to say ok you got one life its up to you to do whatever with it ,no second chances . im not gonna waste any more time waiting for god to show up cause we all admit he wont,also if perps can get into heaven ,i dont wanna be there anyway

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#164922 - 07/05/07 02:23 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
lorraine Offline
New Here

Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Texas
God gave all of us choices in our life but he will have the last word because evil doers have no choice in the afterlife!

I am not an MSA but for my 53 years on this earth I have grown up in an alcoholic home, was married to an abusive man and am now married to a verbally abusive one who also may be a MSA. I could say, why me?.. but I think God was there to show me the light at the end of the tunnel and I have reaped the benefit of becoming stronger thru these trials in my life.

I hope this helps a little..

Lorraine



Edited by lorraine (07/08/07 12:09 AM)
_________________________
I can do nothing to change my childhood but I am in the driver's seat now as an adult!


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#164926 - 07/05/07 02:51 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: lorraine]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Brian,

I'm sorry. I did misunderstand what you were saying.

Quote:
What is the alternative to have an after life...total death?

That would be a logical assumption the way I see it.

Quote:
What is the alternative to beleive that God controls our life?? We are the masters of our life?

Also a logical assumption. I've tried that one tho... doesn't work for me. I always fuck it up good! lol

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#164949 - 07/05/07 05:34 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Me? Master of my own life and destiny? Now there's a scary prospect for the world! lol

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#164962 - 07/05/07 07:16 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
Me? Master of my own life and destiny? Now there's a scary prospect for the world! lol

Much love,
Larry


Indeed it is! \:\) You know I love you, though, bro!

_________________________
Eddie

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#165052 - 07/06/07 02:52 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
pietie Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 326
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
also one person tells me god cant interfere ,but the next one tells me i see god doing things in my life ,direct opposite views of the same faith. people tell me god cant help ,but god will help ? its less confusing to me to say ok maybe god created us ,doubtfull but maybe .

why would god not help us yet still give us endless chances ?


I see God doing things in my life. But He does not interfere. That is the point where prayer comes into effect. Certain things I pray for and God gives it to me. He does things in my life because I asked Him to. Because I gave Him that right in my life. Not my will but His. So I dont agree that it is opposite views of faith at all. God can help any of us and He does help.

God gives us endless chances because He loves us. I always compare my relationship and love for God and by God to my relationship with my children. God gives us endles chances because of His love for us. I will not less my child any less when he doesn't do what i tell him to because I know it will be good for him. Even after the upteenth time I will still love Him.

I rather live a life like there is a God than die and then find out He was there. To me my relationship with Him is not about the reward and about going to heaven its about the satisfaction I get from our relationship. To know He is there and that He loves me despite of my unbelieve and mistakes.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#165115 - 07/06/07 01:34 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Shadow,

Originally Posted By: shadowkid
also one person tells me god cant interfere ,but the next one tells me i see god doing things in my life ,direct opposite views of the same faith. people tell me god cant help ,but god will help ? its less confusing to me to say ok maybe god created us ,doubtfull but maybe . but after that god is done with us ,freewill remember? why would god not help us yet still give us endless chances ?


I certainly don't hold myself up as an example of a man of faith, but here's my answer all the same. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that God is as we are told he is: all-powerful and all-knowing. In that case he would know everything that will ever happen to us and would have the power to intervene anywhere and any time to rescue us from harm, danger, adversity, whatever. You with me so far?

But if he did use his limitless power and knowledge to our benefit, then that means we would have no freedom at all and our lives would be meaningless. No one would ever really achieve anything, since God is hanging around 24/7 to zap him out of any difficulty. There would be no need to think about anything for ourselves, because no matter what dumb-ass thing we did, again, God would be there to step in and save us from the consequences. There would be no meaningful difference between good and evil, since both would lead to a perfect wonderful outcome.

Even the laws of nature would be hijacked. No tree would be allowed to fall if someone was underneath that tree, or climbing it. Rains would have to stop before they reach a flood stage, and no mechanical device would be allowed to fail if it endangered someone's perfect and wonderful life.

Would we appreciate such a life if all we had to do was lay back and watch it unfold, as opposed to work and plan for it? What would be the point of happiness, and indeed, could there be any such thing as happiness?

I could go on, but if we step out of our present condition and look at things objectively, I think it's possible to see that a life lived under divine guarantee of perpetual safety wouldn't be worth living at all.

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#165355 - 07/08/07 06:20 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
Waterman Offline
New Here

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Canada
Perhaps you have to change your ideas as to what "God" is, what does this funny little word signify.
Often we get stuck on a very narrow meaning of this mysterious concept and if it doesn't anymore match our expectations and assumptions, we want to get rid of the whole idea, throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak.
If you think of God as a sort of all-powerful person, much like a very powerful human who could interfere with our human affairs down here, then you will be disappointed; however, if you begin to think of God as a not easy to understand, yet incredibly creative source of all being, then you might begin to see that he/she/it is also the source of our being, and that we are a society of humans who have all the "god-given" resources to make it work for ourselves even in the face of seemingly overwhelming obstacles. You do need a bit of faith here, but I can assure you that it might be worthwhile. People do try to make it work and some tragically don't get it right or fail outright. Along the way they often victimize and hurt others; however, there also are many, many good people who are willing to help and understand your hurt, your best evidence for this of course is this website and this wonderful organization right here. So you see, "God" might just have known that we humans actually can help ourselves and each other to overcome and heal even the gravest of wounds that we might inflict on each other. Perhaps this helps you to see why God does not and did not interfere in human affairs. We can help each other.



Edited by Waterman (07/08/07 06:22 AM)

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#166765 - 07/15/07 09:41 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Waterman]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Interesting thread. Here's my two cents, for what it's worth;

"God" = "Inexplicable Circumstance"

In other words, whatever set of circumstances caused the creation of the universe and everthing in it that we cannot yet explain, can be expressed in the simple term, "God". As soon as we discover the actual, scientific mechanisms of creation, the term "God" will be useless, just as the ancient gods faded away as humans learned the "secret" of their particular superpowers (i.e. Vulcan made volcanoes, Thor made lightning and thunder, etc.)

The only reason Jehovah has persisted as long as he has is that he is credited with everything, so we'll have to learn everything before we can prove his non-existance. That will take time...

I don't get comfort from an omnipotent being watching over me, and I don't get frustrated why he didn't save me. That's just the way it is.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#166777 - 07/15/07 10:56 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Lazarus]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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i'm sorry if i offended anyone with my comments in this thread ,but when we talk about god i have only one frame of reference to go by and that is the thoughts and beliefs of an 11year old. it could be that i'm, more mad at myself for ever believing than i am at god. i do not think its my fault or a shot at people who do believe that i was so disappointed when god didnt help me .as a kid i didnt believe in my parents i didnt believe that people wouldnt hurt me ,i didnt believe i didnt desreve it ,but i did believe in god and i didnt have any of these questions ,i had faith ,i can have faith if i reach my hand out to a dog that it wont bite me right? but if it does bite me ,i'm damn sure not gonna reach out to that same dog again for a really long time.

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#166794 - 07/15/07 11:50 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
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Shadow,

I don't think you have a thing in the world to be apologizing for. Someone started a discussion and you are expressing what it means to you. That is your absolute right here and I'm glad you are staying true to yourself. How can your time here possibly help you if you cannot be yourself and say what you think and feel? The reality of what you think is the most important thing you have to work on in your recovery, and I hope you continue to do that with the honesty and candor you have always displayed here.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#166798 - 07/15/07 11:56 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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thanks larry

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#166827 - 07/15/07 02:44 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
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Adam,

I would never begrudge how you feel about things at the time you were 11yo, or now for that matter. I am one of the first people who will say 'state how you feel.' There is nothing wrong in saying "I felt abandonded by God," or "I feel like God just threw me to the wolves." Be angry, yes! Share that anger, share that disappointment. I will never tell you or anyone how to feel about God. No one should.

It's the seemingly-matter-of-fact opinions that will feel abrasive to me. Statements like 'the bible is a fairy tale' don't ring true to me at all, especially after all the work I've done in my life to discover its origins and authenticity. And then theaterkid made a statement about how science has proven the bible wrong, which is simply not true in my thinking and experience. It's taking the feelings of anger towards God and turning it into insults that doesn't sit well with me, perhaps not with some others here either.

You know me. You know I will walk as many steps with you as it takes if you need to share your anger or frustration about whatever or whoever. I will never judge that, and couldn't in reality do so anyway. I only ask that other comments that brush against others core beliefs not be made here. To me that feels probably about the same as going to someone and telling them 'forgive your perp or you're going to hell.'

And by the way, if you feel I say something out of line, please bring it to my attention. It makes sense that I should grant the same courtesy I ask for.



Edited by FormerTexan (07/15/07 02:57 PM)
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#166828 - 07/15/07 02:50 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
FormerTexan Offline
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Larry,

"How can your time here possibly help you if you cannot be yourself and say what you think and feel?"

I totally agree with that in as far as other's sensibilities are not tread thereon. There are no wrong feelings in my book, but all of us on the board have to choose our words with care, myself included.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#166839 - 07/15/07 04:01 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
roadrunner Offline
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Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
I totally agree with that in as far as other's sensibilities are not tread thereon. There are no wrong feelings in my book, but all of us on the board have to choose our words with care, myself included.


I think we're in agreement here, but perhaps this is something to talk about. I will leave Shadow out of the discussion since he's not the only one who's affected.

Many guys on the site struggle with the problem of believing in a merciful compassionate God while at the same time looking back to horrific abuse in their own childhood. How could God have allowed that to happen? Various aspects of this trouble so many of us, including you and me.

Our responses, however, vary. I know you are a guy of profound faith and I respect you so much for that; I wish I had the strength and serenity that your faith so clearly provides to you. I once did have it, as a boy, but since the abuse, which included numerous episodes in the church that were designed deliberately to shame and humiliate me in the most extreme ways imaginable (and some - as you know - unimaginable), I find myself more or less broken spiritually. I don't deny that, and I wish I had more effective ideas on what to do about it. I consider myself a spiritual and believing person, but I just have no idea how to connect with this God I believe in.

There are, however, guys who feel that abuse shows them a God who is either uncaring or impotent to act, if he even exists at all. They feel profound anger at God, perhaps in much the same way that others feel anger at the abusers. What are they to do with this anger?

I personally think they need to let it out. There must of course be limits, in the same way that there are limits on what we say to each other in other aspects of our discussions here on the site. But if a guy needs to say that he disbelieves in God, or is angry with God, or resents or hates God, then those are feelings he needs to let out. To deny him this option is to privilege one view of religious experience over another.

So where is the line crossed? It seems to me that one guy's needs for expression should not be filled by invalidating the feelings of others. That is, if a guy rejects belief in God it's his right to say so, but his statements should not go so far as to ridicule guys who do believe in God and find religion important in their lives. If someone tells me "I don't believe in God", that's his view and I can accept that he feels this way; I would want him to be able to say that to us. But I would not want to hear something like, "Belief in God is stupid". That's crossing the line, I think.

For me this is comparable to the difference between saying, for example, "The abuse was not your fault" and "You are stupid if you think the abuse was your fault". We should all feel free to express our feelings, but that needs to be done without disempowering or belittling our brothers here on the site who may be in a different place in their recovery or may be handling their issues in different ways.

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#166857 - 07/15/07 05:38 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: roadrunner]
FormerTexan Offline
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Larry,

You are saying everything I'm thinking. Let the feelings out, yes, but also have limits. Of course that applies to me as well.

I don't really know how much "strength" I have in my faith, but thank you for saying that.

I too had an abusive experience with someone in a church. Perp #3 was some kind of counselor in a church. I know firsthand because of that man what betrayal and debasement feel like. I know firsthand how anyone else can have a horrible perception of God and church. You say bible to them and they want to spit. And I don't blame them one bit. On the other hand, my first connection with adults that had any compassion was a bus driver at 13 who saw my misery and wanted to help. They only way he really could was to have me ride with him on the bus another round while he led me in a prayer. So you could say I've experienced both sides of this topical coin.

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#166877 - 07/15/07 09:00 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: FormerTexan]
theatrekid Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
[
Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Adam,

then theaterkid made a statement about how science has proven the bible wrong, which is simply not true in my thinking and experience.


First of all I appologise if i offended any one by this statement that was not my intention...

but the bible has been proven to be inaccurate. there are hundreds of beliefs that come from the bible that scientifically just don't make sense. like the age of the world, the idea that a women came from a man. not the other way around, a global flood,

I understand how religion helps people. i get that. and im fine with it. but to tell me that their is more truth in the bible than say Lord of the Rings or Star Wars i flat out don't believe... show me the evidence.

but anyways my point of posting what i did wasnt to say the bible wasnt true. which i do believe. but my point was to say instead of turning to god for help. why not turn to each other. i think people use religion as a support to find a sense of belonging and understanding. In my limited experience (limited cus im only 18) people that are devoutley religious use their church community as a support the people help each other and for the most part try to be the best they can amongst each other because they have the same common beliefs. What i meant to say earlier is why do we need the bible to make us do this. why shouldnt we all try to do the best and help each other regardless of our beliefs.


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#166879 - 07/15/07 09:06 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
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Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: theatrekid
but the bible has been proven to be inaccurate

so much of life is based on where you stand - what you see as proof, truth, etc .... personally, I've never seen any proof of inaccuracy ...

BUT - I know that this place has been good for me.

Maybe I should be happy with that and go no further.

M


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#166888 - 07/15/07 09:34 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
theatrekid Offline
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MarkK this place has been good for all of us i think.

this place is a living example of what i mean. Every one on here is so completely different but we all are here to help each other and be helped. we do this because we understand what we have been through not because we believe in the same stuff i think thats what makes it a good place..

I think having the conversation about religion vs. science is important not because i seek to prove people wrong but because we should be able to understand other peoples beliefs even if we think they are completely wrong.

Any ways thats how i see it.

,Chris


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#166893 - 07/15/07 09:47 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Chris,

"why not turn to each other."

Well, we do here all the time.

And in my mind, why not do both?

Thanks for clarifying too.



Edited by FormerTexan (07/15/07 09:52 PM)
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#166895 - 07/15/07 09:58 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
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I think what sticks out to me about this whole conversation is not necessarily what we each believe as far as our faith, or science, or what we don't believe. I think what Andy was getting at, and I agree with, is that we need to be respectful of others beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. As Larry noted above, it's one thing to state that you don't agree with someone else's beliefs, but quite another to belittle them because of their beliefs. I think it's important to understand that for some people, their faith is the very essence of who they are -- be it Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever. To talk derogatory about what they base their faith on may make them feel that this applies similarly about them as well. I think it just comes down to a basic level of respect for others and what they choose to base their beliefs on.

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Eddie

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#166896 - 07/15/07 09:59 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: EGL]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Very well articulated, Eddie. Thanks.

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“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#166897 - 07/15/07 10:04 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: theatrekid
I think having the conversation about religion vs. science is important not because i seek to prove people wrong but because we should be able to understand other peoples beliefs


I agree completely, Chris.

M


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#166903 - 07/15/07 11:06 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: MarkK]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
i see no belittling in this thread ,if disagreeing is belittling then why have a conversation at all? but if it will make it better i'll believe k? adam

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#166906 - 07/15/07 11:32 PM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: shadowkid]
EGL Offline
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I think it's been explained about as many ways as possible. I really don't know how to say it any differently.

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Eddie

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#168520 - 07/23/07 03:08 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pain4ever]
Maxx Offline
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Loc: Ohio
Boy, this is a long thread! I've read pretty much all of it and I noticed most (if not all) of it is from the Christian perspective. There are many other ways of looking at the world (and "God") than just through the lens of the bible. I personally lost my faith in the church not because of my abuse (even though the 2nd perp was a church leader), but because I found too many contradictions to what I believe to be true. I can't believe in a God that would condemn someone like Ghandi to everlasting torment just because he didn't believe in Christ. My beliefs lean more towards the Buddist/Toaist ways of thinking now. For me, the idea that God didn't protect me from my abuser doesn't come into question because I don't think of God in that manner. Maybe if your faith doesn't work for you, you should look at other faiths.

Basically, shit happens. What happens to you is not as important as how you react to what happens to you. I'd recomend "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl. It's about his experiences as a concentration camp survivor and his resulting philosophy. Basically, it's the meaning that you attach to your experiences that's important and you have the freedom to choose that meaning. You can choose to attach a meaning that empowers you or disempowers you. (Still working on that one myself.)

Maxx

_________________________
Shackled by guilt I did not create
No absolutions, no paroles or escapes.
Swallow it down, do whatever it takes to get by...

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#168666 - 07/24/07 01:00 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: Maxx]
theatrekid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
I have seen this book several times Maxx but havnt picked it up i will take a look at it some time.

and welcome to Male survivor its a good place its helped me quiet a bit.

,Chris


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#168717 - 07/24/07 09:22 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: theatrekid]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Funny thing....out of all this and couple really good friends, I have found a path to my faith again. The explainations here helped me understand that and I thank each of you for that.

I also wanna say thanks to HP and Rob. Rob the way you explain things really opened up my eyes and HP your faith and strength showed me that God must exist.

Brian

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Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#168906 - 07/25/07 04:22 AM Re: Thing thats tough for me... [Re: pietie]
Thomson Offline
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Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 30
This is a really difficult thread, as we all have the same questions but do not find the answers.

I am not a Christian so I can only talk about the Muslim worldview.

The problem we are facing is that we are blaming God for something a vicious human committed. As God has promised in Quran(Muslim religious book) that every good deed, no matter how small would be rewarded and every bad deed no matter how small would be punished.

So the good deeds are rewarded on the day of judgement and bad deeds are punished no matter how small. In this world bad things happen, people get sick, people die but all is because this world is a test, if we do good in midst of difficulties we would be rewarded more.
With there being a day of judgement and afterlife, the perps would be punished for what they did to us and we would be rewarded for the pain we suffered,so hey! there is hope for us all and darkness and hell for the perps.

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