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#162606 - 06/21/07 09:45 AM Bless me Father for I have sinned....
ttoon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Bless



Edited by ttoon (07/09/07 06:52 AM)
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#162614 - 06/21/07 10:03 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
GWsurvives Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 251
Loc: Atlanta, and here, among othe...
ttoon,

I will only agree with you whole heartedly. You have put into words exactly my perspective on the "God" thing.

Sorry you have to be here, but since you do, it's a good place to be.

GW

_________________________
"Some times there just aren't enough rocks" Forrest Gump

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#162616 - 06/21/07 10:13 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
knot4sail16 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Southeastern U.S.
ttoon,

Thank you for sharing this. I don't think this is an attack. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to enter into your deep questions.

Your story highlights for me some new and old questions that I have about God.

I don't think you have to believe in God after going through that. At the same time, I don't stop believing in God after what I have been through.

If God is loving and able to intervene, I don't have an explanation as to why God doesn't stop evil.

I find it hard to believe that a God who is loving yet somehow allows us to experience such horrific evil would also demand that we believe in and trust that God. I think such a God would have to have grace over our unbelief.

Thanks again for sharing such a difficult part of yourself.

Peace

_________________________
letting the broken pieces be shaped into something new and beautiful is the greatest joy and struggle of this journey

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#162644 - 06/21/07 11:55 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: ttoon]
krayoss Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 112
Loc: west
Post deleted by krayoss


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#162723 - 06/21/07 08:46 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: krayoss]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

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#162762 - 06/21/07 11:07 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
ttoon,

I too am a product of RC schooling, 1st thru 12, including seminary. I was almost an ardent believer, especially as an altar boy, choir in HS, Boot Camp and then it went on hiatus.

The rape & molestation were around age 12,13 16 ???? not really sure anymore. I did not put a notch in the tree for each time it happened.

I believe and I don't believe but I had history profs say that I am an anomaly and I can accept that. My sister is an RC church lady and tries to impose her morality on me. I thank her but decline.

To me, god is the goodness in others, No face, no beard, no sex -if we are made in the image and likeness of god, god must be a hermaphrodite and will be interesting to meet some day. "Hey god, howzit going?" And if god is all goodness and love, god will know what I am going through and will understand. Not to worry. Done that already.

froggy, wandering and wondering.

_________________________
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#162772 - 06/21/07 11:52 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: froggy12]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

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checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
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#162779 - 06/22/07 12:11 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave,

I hear you and you have every right to your anger. As you work through your issues only you have the right to determine the course of your recovery. What works for others may be neither here nor there for you. You will find a lot of support here, but ultimately your path will be your own - chosen by you.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#162791 - 06/22/07 02:31 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
pietie Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 326
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: ttoon
If I say that I do not believe in God then why is that perceived as a challenge to coerce or manipulate or convert me? If I say I do not believe in God and someone responds by saying, “I will pray for you.” Isn’t that the same as them saying to me…I am right and you are wrong. Isn’t that abusive? If I say I do not believe in God…then why is that an attack?
How have I attacked you? How have I hurt you? If I suggest that spirituality is, in fact, the relationship we have with all living things and exclude God as the Father, the creator…qualify it by offering that it is my opinion, my belief…then why are you compelled to argue? If you say, “Eventually, when you are through being angry, or have worked through your anger, you will find God again.” Aren’t you telling me what to feel and how to feel…passing judgment on me?

Is this post…an attack? Is it a judgment? Do you feel threatened?
Why?
Dave


Dave

I have ade it clear in many instances where I stand spiritually.

Do I see your post as an attack? No
Is it a jusdgement? No.
Do I feel threatened? No.
Have you attacked me or my believes? No.
Will I pray for you? Yes.
Why? Because I am standing on the other side. I find my strength in Him. Not in a church, not in an institution, but Him. He has carried me through pretty rough times. When there was no one else, He was there.
Am I going to try to convert you? No. That is not my place to do.

You have the right to believe what you want, we all do. We are all connected with a similar pain, hurt and struggle. Your experience made youbelieve the things you do. My experience makes me believe what I do.

Thanks for your honesty in your post.

_________________________
Not Perfect, just forgiven

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#162803 - 06/22/07 07:24 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: pietie]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

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#162837 - 06/22/07 10:33 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Dave,

Not threatened at all. You've expressed the things you need to express. Whether I agree with them or not is beside the point. The important thing is that you have been able to say what needs to be said and to be heard.

I hear you, friend.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#162925 - 06/22/07 06:02 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
It's called diversity and lawdy, lawdy, some Christians are troubled by it.

a cynical froggy today

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#163011 - 06/23/07 07:09 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: froggy12]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Hi Guys

As for the statement of diversity, the Catholic Church is not a buffet. You do not get to pick and choose what you want to accept. It is a very narrow belife in the Bible you either accept it or you do not, everyone is welcome but there are very specific ways to behave.

As for why a good and loving God would allow evil into the world is another issue. I have found all the pain and evil I have experianced has forced growth and made me a better person. I have had to experiance the negative of evil to force the positive changes I have made. This is now part of who I am and has caused me to become a better person. In retrospect I see that there were motives for him to allow me to get so low I wanted to die (I once asked the same question how can God allow this). I now have an understanding of people in crisis and can identify with them and work with them on a level that others can not. I have learned compassion and sensitivity from my abuse. He has formed me through the nightmare I experianced for the work he has asked me to do. How could I extend the sensitivity of healing with knowing it. If I had not experianced the battle how would I know when the victory has been achieved for others or even myself.


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#163019 - 06/23/07 09:41 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: Mark Antony]
ttoon Offline
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Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

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#163178 - 06/24/07 10:19 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Hi guys

Well, I will be the first to agree there were evil men doing terible things to boys under the cover of the priesthood. I also agree that the authorities in the church severly mishandled the situation. There is no teaching of the Catholic Church that says what happened is acceptable. Actually the bible states that anyone who causes harm to a child is better off to have a milstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea. There is evil in the world and in this case it has permeated the Catholic Church. The Church is made up of people who are not perfect. If you want to start pointing out errors in handeling the situation, where were the parents that knew that these men where just being moved to other parishes? Not removed from access to children. If that happened to one of my kids and the priest was not removed from having access to children. I would be at the door of the nearest ploice station as soon as I knew that the priest still had access to children.

As far as your rules seeming to fall short, the rules do not fall short. The imperfect humans dealing with the situation did not even come anywhere near the mark on following the rule. Had the rule been followed things would have been exceedingly different.

As far as my ability to understand people in crisis. You have not supported or disproved anything to do with my abilities in that area. What you have done is made assumptions based on the church I belong too. You also have made it clear that you are very ignorant of the teachings of that church.

Lets take a vote. Lets be fair before the vote is taken. To be fair you must have some information on what my foundations truly are, not what you assume them to be based on the church I belong to and a situation that ocurred in a state 1,200 miles form where I live.

As far as asking for forgiveness, If I thought there was just a slim possibility of a faint hope that there was a minute shred of sincerity in that request, I would with out hesitation! However I judge that your asking for forgiveness in this situation is just an example of political correctness. So you can say that you did the right thing and I should not be offened.

I am glad for your responce it is about time someone was able to defend the teacchings of the Catholic Church and demonstrate that what happened was not in accord with the teachings. Just because a man has been ordained into ministry does not mean he is protected from buring in Hell. The clergy is as suceptable to evil as anyone else (probably more so cause they are leading the fight against the enemy) many have fallen and many more will fall. But the teachings of the Catholic Church are still true and good even if the leaders mishandle things and fall.



Edited by Mark Antony (06/24/07 10:21 PM)

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#163202 - 06/25/07 12:25 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: Mark Antony]
ttoon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

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#163208 - 06/25/07 01:06 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Guys,

Just a reminder to keep posts respectful even when stating differences of opinion \:\)

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#163225 - 06/25/07 07:35 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: WalkingSouth]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
God does not plant seeds of abuse or any other evil. He does however allow evil in the world so he can in the long run use it for good.

The ignorant comment is not a reflection on intellegence just knowledge. There are many things I am not knowledgeable about therefore I am ignorant of them.


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#163287 - 06/25/07 11:17 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: Mark Antony]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
god allows evil so he can use it later? and if what you say is gospell then why the hell aren't half the priests in the world sinking in the ocean with mill stones around their necks?and why is it ignorant to want proof that something is real and not just part of the longest running propaganda campaign in history? to me the church's position is crystal clear ,the church is the most important thing ,not the kids who get destroyed ,not the families that get destroyed,not the lives of innocent bystanders,that are affected,. above all else the biggest money making scam in history is whats important,people think that guys like me and ttoon are dangerous to the church ,we are non believers doomed to rot in hell ,the real danger in this world is the church its self ,they have proven that they will ignore abuse in the name of saving the church. and its all done in the name of god , what i am ignorant about is what we get in return for total obedience to the church and to their god?a ticket to heaven?well i have been told that everyone can get into heaven all they have to do is ask ,even the perps ,how shitty would that be?to walk through the gate and find out your perp is already there? god allowed what happened to me ,to use as a tool later ,well i guess thats a noble way to be huh? yeah i think god kept me alive so he could stand me up and say ,see things could be worse.ttoon gets my vote whatever we are voting on . i will go to the beach everyday but i bet i wont see one priest there with a stone around his neck or any other perp for that matter

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#163297 - 06/25/07 11:51 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... *DELETED* [Re: shadowkid]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Post deleted by ttoon

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
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#163538 - 06/26/07 09:00 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: ttoon]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
ttoon

I do not know what God's reason is for allowing the SA to happen to you. I do not know what God's wishes for you are. You must disern that yourself.
I do know that when evil has happened to me I have learned greatly from it. That is when I have decided too. I could decide too sit around and feel sorry for myself and say see God is just being mean to me again.
Do not get me wrong I have had many times when I have sat and felt sorry for myself. However that has always been my choice. There has always been a point where I make the decision to either grow or feel sorry for myself. Growth is hard work, scarry, and painful, it takes us out of our comfort zone. Growth is also a choice. Freewill is one of the gifts God gives us. We can heal and grow and become a better person for what has happened to us or we can become bitter and use any type of evil that happens to us as "proof" God does not care for us and just wants to inflict pain on us, or maybe really does not exist all. I can't make that choice for you.

I can also say that as a result of evil that has happened to me there has always been a point when I had to make a choice. The choices have always been learn grow and go on with life or sit and feel sorry for myself. I do not always like the learn grow and go on option but it has always been there.

Mark


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#164236 - 06/30/07 11:06 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: Mark Antony]
trusty Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Indiana, USA
I surely hope that the pain we all feel and attempt to work through is not misconstrued as feeling sorry for ourselves. It's pretty tough work, and, sure, maybe some of us have handled it better than others.

I first tried to handle it by telling someone about my abuse. I was 7 years old. I confessed, in explicit detail, to my priest. He did absolutely nothing, despite the fact he KNEW who was talking to him. He knew my brother that I named by name. We both went to the church school. My entire family lived a block from the church. HE DID NOTHING!

So, I waited another 25 years to tell anyone else. And now, 42 years after that confession, I'm in a lot of pain...I don't think I'm just feeling sorry for myself. Some of my siblings, however, think that Satan has taken me over because I'm obsessing over my sexual desires for men.

REJ



_________________________
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#164237 - 06/30/07 11:08 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: trusty]
trusty Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Indiana, USA
Oh, I forgot. The priest actually did something. He told me say a "Hail Mary" and an "Our Father" as penance for MY sins; and he told me to go and sin no more.

REJ

_________________________
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#164424 - 07/02/07 06:32 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: trusty]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
trusty

There is a huge difference between working through the pain we feel from the abuse and feeling sorry for yourself. One is an active healing process. They other a way to seek pity.
As far as the local Priest not acting on what you told him in the confessional, that is a different issue. The Priest is bound by the seal of the confessional to not tell anyone what is told to him in the confidence of confessional. Why he did not request you to come talk with him outside of the confessional so he could deal with the problem. I can only say was an error of being an imperfect human like all of us. We have all let people down, some in more serious ways than others. Priests are people not some sort of special individual that does not have faults. They make mistakes and they sin like any human. If you chose to be angry with God for what happened to you go ahead. He is a BIG GOD and can take any anger you have for him.
I view his error in handling your situation no worse than mine when the wife of my abuser caught him in the act with me. I waited and waited for a responce but she did nothing. Years later when I asked her why she did not act? Her response was I did not know what to do? I knew it was wrong but did not know what to do.
Could the Priest have been in a simmilar situation? Maybe he did not know how to deal with your problem. Why neither one of these people chose not to seek out what to do I can not answer. If the Priest is still alive you may want to seek him out to ask him. He is the only one who can answer that. You may find he is tortured by his own lack of action. The wife in my case says she is.

Mark


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#165117 - 07/06/07 01:47 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: trusty]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Trusty,

Originally Posted By: trusty
So, I waited another 25 years to tell anyone else. And now, 42 years after that confession, I'm in a lot of pain...I don't think I'm just feeling sorry for myself. Some of my siblings, however, think that Satan has taken me over because I'm obsessing over my sexual desires for men.


I can't speak for the Church, but here on Male Survivor you have every right in the world to all you feelings, whatever they may be. In fact, that's where we all have to start, with how we really feel, even if we don't like those feelings or already know them to be untrue. Our feelings are the reality we have to begin looking at. Your pain is real, and if you regret its impact on you then that doesn't make you pathetic, it makes you human.

As for your sexual feelings for men, if that's what works for you and you are sure of that, then hey, that's you and more power to you. There's isn't anything wrong with being gay, regardless of what religious conservatives say and try to back up with selective quotations from the Bible. No God I would ever be interested in worshiping would make a guy gay by nature (and that's how guys "become" gay) and then condemn him for it.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#165137 - 07/06/07 02:47 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: roadrunner]
trusty Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Indiana, USA
Hi Larry,
Thanks much for the encouraging words. I'm actually feeling good today. My wife and I reached a great turning point last night, and I'm feeling pretty okay about myself and the future.

It is a shame that so much of our hurt can be tangled up with issues over our religious faith.

Thanks,
Russ

_________________________
"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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#165366 - 07/08/07 08:33 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: trusty]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
Larry

You have a very typical understanding of what Christian Churches teach about being gay. As for all demoninations I can not say what they teach. As for the Catholic Church it teaches that All unmarried people should remain chaste. It does not matter if you are gay or straight if you are not married sexual intercoures is a sin. Sexual intercourse is reserved for married couples. The big issue I see is that The Catholic Church will not marry a gay or lesbian couple because that type of relationship under the churches definition does not constitute a marriage. A gay or lesbian person by the reason of being gay or lesbian has no more guilt or condemnation than a straight person. If a gay, lesbian, or single straight person elect to seek a sexually active relationship they are all in sin. There are not degrees of sin. Any violation of Gods comandments is sin. One is not condemed for being gay or lesbian provided they remain chaste. They are equally in sin with a straight single person if the gay, lesbian, and straight single are persuing a sexually active relationship. There are at least four gay people in the Catholic Church I attend and they are accepted as well as any of us sinners. Church is a hospital for the spiritually needy not a home for the saints.

Mark


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#165367 - 07/08/07 08:39 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: Mark Antony]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
ttoon

As for the road less traveled you are right. If you are good with>

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#165374 - 07/08/07 11:16 AM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: Mark Antony]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
strange how much the gate looks like the inside of the closet door,guess maybe in my innocence i just chose the wrong path ,freewill strikes again! its hard to see the path or the gate when your crying tears of blood. if it happend to an adult i could cope ,if god wont protect the children then i got no use for him ,but i'm glad it works for you

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#165415 - 07/08/07 04:39 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: shadowkid]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
strange \,if god wont protect the children then i got no use for him ,but i'm glad it works for you


I feel the same way adam... i dont want a god who lets horrible stuff happen to people in my life.

,chris


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#165443 - 07/08/07 09:21 PM Re: Bless me Father for I have sinned.... [Re: theatrekid]
Mark Antony Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Michigan
God does not force anyone to accept him. He also never promised life would not have bad times. In fact Jesus tells us we will have troubles. But bad times are not the end. If you choose recovery. Being you are reading this that is apparent you have chosen recovery

I think that you are forgeting also that when Jesus came as our savior. It was to save us fromm our sin and the penalty of them that we would have, not from sins committed aginst us.

There is that free will thing again. Not only does free will allow us to chose evil, it also allows us to choose to do evil aginst someone else. We are not robots programed for good only. We have to choose between good and bad on a daily basis sometimes people choose bad on a daily basis.

Mark


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