Post deleted by ttoon

tk,
I really appreciate your response. Just because I do believe in God doesn't mean I think I have everything figured out. In fact, some of the questions you raise and the problems you have with the Bible are the same ones I raise all the time. You're right that a lot of the stuff that men wrote in the Bible doesn't support the kind of God that I was talking about, and frankly, most evangelical Christians would call me a heretic for how I view the Bible.

Back to the original question of where does the love of God go when the pain turns the minutes to hours?

Whether we hold to a faith in God or not, we have the opportunity like ttoon says, to turn to one another to find healing in community. I think we all participate not as independent agents, or as codependent victims, but in a healthy level of interdependency where we extend and receive the love that can restore us by living honestly and openly with those around us.

I happen to view this as our way of participating in and bringing about the love of God that was missing when we were all in our darkest hour. WE all have the opportunity to enter into one another's pain and help each other to find the courage to embrace our life now.

I think our different views present a tension that can hold us together and help us all gain clarity, rather than pushing us apart. That's the beautiful thing about a community that is committed to the safety and development of the members and not just being doggedly committed to some specific interpretation or ideology of how to think.

you guys challenge me deeply. Thanks.

Peace

i've been watching and reading - i have one small comment i'd like to add - my own 2 cents, such as they are

as for where the love of God goes during those times ... i believe it goes into the hearts of His people. unfortunately, being human flesh we have the tendancy to fail.

that said - i thank all of you for your openness to the original question. the discussion here has helped me with issues of my own.

ttoon

I think we have different ideas about free will. You stated that the idea of free will fails miserably. Then you state that God is more interested in knowing us than controling us. That is exactly why he gave us free will. So he would not control us. We can chose who we become and what we do and belive. The idea of free will releases us from control by God. He tells us how he would like us to act and what he wants from us. Then he gives us free will so we can decide if that is what we are going to do. That includes having a relationship with him.

Mark

the freewill explanation kinda makes god useless i think,an 11 year old does not have freewill.

I tend to think the opposite - which is what makes SA so cruel. An 11 year-old's will is ignored, actions are done outside and against his free will.

Maybe it's just semantics and how we define "free will"... And maybe it's just the effects of my past speaking up again...

At any rate - have to agree with Dave - WAY too much protection for the powers and none for the powerless.

Shadow,



Or we could put it this way: An 11-year-old doesn't know his options, rights, or potential. And if he doesn't know about these things, in what meaningful sense can we say he really has them?

It's like saying, "Oh, why didn't you walk clear of the fire through the secret door?", to someone who didn't know there even existed a secret door.

Much love,
Larry

I like your analogy, Larry. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree. Excellent de>