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#160588 - 06/08/07 07:36 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: Chain Breaker]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
maybe they were left out cause they are the truth,and show that there is no need for the church at all,maybe we can get to the spiritual place on our own .what would happen if suddenly the church no longer had power over people?peace maybe?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#160594 - 06/08/07 07:57 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11116
Loc: Denver, CO
I did a study on this once. I ran across a book called The Other Gospels, and another called The Other Bible, and have bought both. The difference in literary style to the bible as we know it today is astounding. Some of the books are apocrypha, some are pseudopigrapha. CB, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that apocrypha are considered historically accurate, but were not canonized because of their lack of literary connection with what is canonized. I'm not sure that even makes sense to me. Pseudopigrapha are the books that are old forgeries, or the gnostic books.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#160610 - 06/08/07 08:47 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: FormerTexan]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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the bible is the forgery it was designed to make the church the only way to god or salvation ,how much power is that ,thats why preists got away with molesting for so long ,the gnostics tell the story of jesus and IT MAKES SENSE! jesus was a mortal man not the son of god or a god himself ,jesus had a wife and a father and mother ,now which makes more sense?that or imaculate conception? it was written by the people who were with jesus,jesus and mary magdelan had a family yes jesus had a child. but if he wasnt a god then maybe people could really be like him? the story in the bible was to convince people that they could never be like jesus and that the only way to even be close was to dedicate your life and money to the church,did you know that there is more wealth in vatican city than anywhere else in the world?if they sold all the art and statues and divied up all the money they have ,world hunger would no longer exist . everything in the bible is geared to make the church the most powerfull force there is ,because its only through pedophle protecting church policy that you can be close to god or ever expect to go to heaven . the curch is the ultimate abuser because for thousands of years they have carried on this lie to keep the power over the people

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#160613 - 06/08/07 08:58 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: shadowkid]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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also jesus was a jew and in those days a male jew was almost comanded to have children it was part of carrying on the faith,if a jewish man had no children he was considerd inferior ,dont you think the bible would have tried to explain why he didnt have children? it just makes so much more sense to me ,that jesus was a real hunam man who had the freewill to be good ,and he was killed to be a martyr for the church ,see if god will sacrifice his own son then asking you to sacrifice your own life for god was turned into a way to get to heaven. if you can find a pre 1950 picture of the last supper ,the person sittiing in the positon of honor at jesuses right is not a disciple at all its a women , its his wife mary and they are joined at the hip ,if you can look closly at it its obvious that there is more to the pic than meets the eye

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#160617 - 06/08/07 09:08 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
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"a male jew was almost comanded to have children it was part of carrying on the faith"

Can you show me where this is commanded in the old testament? I would really like to read that, because this would be a first. Such a command does not leave much room for celibacy or other circumstances, such as dying for the sins of the world.

I don't agree that the bible is a forgery. I do agree in that churches have abused the bible and misapplied it. As for the Da Vinci code movie and book, I found it intriguing. However, this movie, however fascinating, replaces the bible with a famous painter's work. The two contradict seem to highly each other and cannot be reconciled.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#160622 - 06/08/07 09:24 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: FormerTexan]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
You either believe (faith) or you don't. I do. It works for me. But to call what other people base their faith on a forgery is not helpful.

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Eddie

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#160652 - 06/08/07 11:37 AM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: EGL]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11116
Loc: Denver, CO
I should also clarify, Adam.

"Pseudopigrapha are the books that are old forgeries, or the gnostic books."

This can read like I was calling the gnostic book forgeries. What I mean is that the gnostic books are also pseudopigrapha.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#160672 - 06/08/07 01:13 PM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: FormerTexan]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
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Posts: 2437
i knew i shoulda just stayed outa this one,sorry if i offended anyone.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#160712 - 06/08/07 04:21 PM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: shadowkid]
Chain Breaker Offline
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Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
Shadow,

Speaking only for myself, I have not been offended by anything you've written on here, and I hope I have not offended you. I know you're searching for the truth.

I personally find the Gnostic Gospels fascinating, and I don't think traditional Christians should be afraid of them. They date from about the same time as the canonized gospels and are part of a mystical Christian movement. When I say "mystical," I'm referring to a movement that believes in and subscribes to the notion of personal spiritual connection with the divine, together with secret knowledge that is only given to a privileged few. That knowledge is, again, given through both writings and visions. All religions have their mystical elements. Gnosticism was the first to arise within Christianity. An important thing to remember with regard to mysticisms is that the mainstream believers and the leaders tend to regard them as deviating from the already existing revealed word and traditions. This often can lead to persecution. This was the case with the Gnostics. They were badly mistreated by the leaders of the church. Being persecuted, however, does not mean someone is right. The Gnostic Gospels are all pseudepigrapha by any scholarly definition that I've seen. I believe, though, that there is much of merit in their teachings.

I see we have hijacked this thread , so I'll continue my comments by PM to Shadow and FT.

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
--Wind In His Hair, Dances With Wolves

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#160857 - 06/09/07 12:30 PM Re: God as a Father figure [Re: Chain Breaker]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Speaking as a professional historian I'd like to say that the whole Da Vinci Code thing is nonsense from beginning to end. Dan Brown's book is a novel, let's recall. It would take many volumes and years and years of pointless work to disprove it, and most historians just chuckle and get on with their work. By comparison, it makes better sense to argue that the pyramids were built by aliens.

On the Gospels, there were a lot of stories about the life and mission of Jesus in circulation in the years after his death. Some of these were used by the compilers of the Gospel texts we have in the NT, and others made their way into other accounts. None of these accounts aim to write the biography of Jesus as such. They were all what we call kerygmatic, meaning that their purpose was to argue the truth of Christianity and show how the life of Jesus reflects a divine plan for the world.

That doesn't mean the texts are false. It just means that all of them tell the story from a committed Christian perspective, and that's of course why they ended up as books of the NT. Other books were also in circulation, but for whatever reasons (most of these reasons are not clear to us now) these were not included in the canon of the NT.

None of these books are "forged" in the sense of being deliberate and deceitful frauds. Forgery and falsification have nothing to do with the issue from a historical perspective - all have something to contribute. They differ in perspective, being written from Jewish, gentile, philosophical or mystical perspectives or for the benefit of people who thought along those lines. When we read these texts we get some sense of the richness of religious thought in emerging Christian circles.

If we find the 4 Gospels more convincing than other stories we may have read, that's just because we have been brought up with these 4 accounts. That's what we are familiar with and these are the books that subsequent Christian theology stands on.

But at the end of the day, as Eddie suggests, what we make of these books is a matter of faith. Switching to my personal view now, it seems to me that religion in which there's no element of faith - i.e. in which we demand proof for everything - really isn't religion, it's more like philosophy. Belief in God in any real sense calls on us to trust in the truth of things that lie beyond our understanding.

Religion is often dismissed these days as the refuge of the weak, but that's nonsense too, in my book at least. To be a genuinely religious person takes commitment, courage and a willingness to learn and change.

Sorry for the further diversion of the thread!

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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