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#156585 - 05/17/07 02:00 AM Just to stir up the waters a little bit:
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

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#156794 - 05/18/07 02:17 AM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: Hauser]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." is a line from the 1939 film Gone with the Wind starring Clark Gable and Vivien Leigh.


Now can we get on with healing?

froggy

_________________________
??

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#156795 - 05/18/07 02:25 AM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: froggy12]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Be not charmed by Ms Stahl's demeanor, in her previous life she had another role:

William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
from Macbeth

A dark Cave. In the middle, a Caldron boiling. Thunder.

Enter the three Witches.

1 WITCH. Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
2 WITCH. Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin'd.
3 WITCH. Harpier cries:'tis time! 'tis time!
1 WITCH. Round about the caldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone,
Days and nights has thirty-one;
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
2 WITCH. Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
3 WITCH. Scale of dragon; tooth of wolf;
Witches' mummy; maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark;
Root of hemlock digg'd i the dark;
Liver of blaspheming Jew;
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Sliver'd in the moon's eclipse;
Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips;
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingrediants of our caldron.
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
2 WITCH. Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.


Add some good gin and you don't care what it tastes like.

Froggy drowning in another Nor'easter. glug glug


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brinded - having obscure dark streaks or flecks on gray
gulf - the throat
drab - prostitute
chaudron - entrails
The above appears at the beginning of Act IV, Scene 1 as found in:

Shakespeare, William. The Globe Illustrated Shakespeare: The Complete Works Annotated. Howard Staunton ed. New York: Gramercy Books, 1993.

_________________________
??

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#156824 - 05/18/07 11:45 AM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: Hauser]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Hauser, the part I found interesting was trying to determine who is gay by body language and voice. So we have straight guys and gay guys. They did not say anything about bisexual guys, or love-shy guys or trans-gender guys, but I feel that these guys are also due to the same hormonal influences during pregnancy. I also found one article that talked about trans-gender and the use of the insecticide DDT.
http://www.love-shy.com
gendertree.com

PS: I also ether read or saw something about it may be genetics but not one gene like they have been hunting for. But that women have been selecting guys that have desirable characteristic's. Only sometimes these genes combined to produce a gay man.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#156837 - 05/18/07 01:02 PM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: lostcowboy]
pain4ever Offline


Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 1032
Let me just say this, there is no sure fire way of determining oif a guy is gay or not. I proved that, I am gay, played it staraight for 28 years and no one knew. No one in my family, no friends......its rediculous to think you can tell by mannerisms if a person is gay, might ring true for some but not all!

_________________________
Peace and Tranquility all depends on your frame of reference.

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#158055 - 05/24/07 08:08 PM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: pain4ever]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
These discussions always fascinate me. Personally, i think many of us are more confused and uncertain than we think. Deciding to give up on straight/gay as opposites was one of the best moves I ever made in thinking of my own sexuality.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#158211 - 05/25/07 07:19 PM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: roadrunner]
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Ok Larry, I'll bite... not literally (hmmm, maybe?!) lol

What do you mean about giving up straight and gay as opposites? Do you mean there is a contiuum that most people fall on?

Just wanted to hear your experience since I struggle myself.

Dan

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#158216 - 05/25/07 08:29 PM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: dannym]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Dan:
There is a continuum of sexual arousal that does not mean sexual orientation. John Money, of Johns Hopkins U, 20 or so years ago, proposed a continuum of sexual interest ranging from exclusively heter to exclusively homo. He also divided it in terms of experience and interest/arousal.

While many people, based on experience, may be exclusively or predominately hetero or homosexual, it doesn't mean they are the same way in terms of their interest or arousal.

So, for example, a man might have 4 sexual partners, all female. Under this schema, he would be 100% heterosexual However, in terms of interest/arousal, he could be 50/50 or a different percentage in terms of what turns him on. If a survivor, he might have an interest in penises that could play out in terms of acting out with other males or a fascination with penises in porn scenes. That doesn't make him gay but it might be an indicator that he is more "bisexual" in terms of his turn-ons. (Which could be a reaction to his abuse.)

It is a complicated process. While we can more readily count the number of homosexual/same sex relationships we have had (or heterosexual ones) it is difficult to gauge the impact of desire/interest/arousal we might have with our fantasies.

I guess that's what makes this work so challenging and difficult for some.

Ken



Edited by Ken Singer, LCSW (05/25/07 08:31 PM)

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#158341 - 05/26/07 06:48 PM Re: Just to stir up the waters a little bit: [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Danny,

There is a public tendency to see "straight" as the opposite of "gay", just because they refer to sexual acts with the two different sexes. At that level this way of looking at things may be accurate, but it quickly breaks down at other levels.

For example, if straight sex is okay and healthy, and gay sex is its opposite, then does that make gay sex wrong and bad? Many people think so, for social or religious reasons. But at this level it's of course a false comparison when we draw this kind of contrast. It's also unhelpful when we try to use the supposed dichotomy to describe what straight and gay men are like socially and culturally. Are all delicate and "soft" men gay? Of course not. Are there no gay men in the NFL? Guess again! And so on.

And as Ken points out, there are guys who have never had gay sex and are not inclined to do so, but who are aroused by the naked male form or interested in penises, how well other men are endowed sexually, and so on. Straight or gay?

I had to struggle with this, Dan, because when I was a boy my best friend and I were abused together. He was 12 and I was 13, and things lasted for a year like this. I had already been abused for four years before that, so by the time I was 14 I guess you could say I had totally wrecked boundaries. So did my friend. It's a long and difficult story, but for the moment I'll just say that looking back on those years in terms of absolutes just didn't help me at all. I also went through a time when I was doing some very self-destructive acting out, for the most part driven by alcohol, drugs and the music scene of the times. That involved both male and female partners. Yet I have never thought of myself as gay, and in 1980, when a gay friend whom I had supported wanted to thank me by showing me "his New York" (during the day and not in the evening, he insisted - lol), I was pleased as punch to go with him but felt very awkward the whole time.

Ken might want to comment here, but I am not even convinced of the validity of Money's proposal for a continuum with one end being exclusively straight and the other end exclusively gay. My reason is that this model still involves the major assumption of gay and straight as opposites that are taken for granted from the start and not proven at all.

I'm not sure I would want to propose this in a serious way, and even if I wanted to I am not professionally qualified to do it. But could we map out sexuality as a kind of figure-eight, with "gay" and "straight" as shifting and overlapping spheres of inclination? If we did, then suddenly the way "gay" and "straight" relate to one another would look entirely different! My point here is that this difference would owe a lot to the fact that we started with different assumptions.

Finally Danny, I dislike the contrast between "straight" and "gay" because that invites us to judge ourselves in terms of our sexual feelings and inclinations, as if we should be one and not the other. I have said this many times on the DB, but this sounds like bullshit to me. Instead of worrying about whether he falls in this category or the other, I think a survivor should think in terms of these three questions:

1) Am I being totally honest with myself about my sexual feelings and inclinations?
2) Am I being honest and responsible in my relations with my sexual partner(s)?
3) Do I feel sexually fulfilled?

If a guy can honestly answer yes to all those questions, then hey, so far as I am concerned he should be happy. Let other people spin their wheels in the swamp of straight v. gay.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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