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#156536 - 05/16/07 08:34 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: Chain Breaker]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
the problem in this however is how to convince him i didn't mean what he thinks it means...this is when we get into the no win debates because he will absolutely insist on something being the way he sees it.


There is such a tremendous amount in this post that I can't even begin to address all of it, so my feeble little mind will just take this quote.

Indy, my b/f and I get into this one all the time. For instance, he insists that the reason he's in therapy is to make sense of what happened. The answer in my head? You can't! How could you possibly make sense out of an adult abusing a child? This particular conversation came up a few weeks ago, but rather than argue, which I wanted to do with everything in me, I asked him if he was getting anywhere with that. Naturally, the answer was no. So I asked him why he thought that was. He didn't know, so he said he would keep trying. OK, that's fine, what do you think would be a reasonable explanation? and so on. I tried so hard to not let myself express what I knew to be the absolute right answer because I'd done that before and all it got us was tears. I let him talk it out with me, although really with himself. Unfortunately, even though I know what to do, when faced with such an absolute falsehood, I eventually said he would never find an explanation because there wasn't one to be found. The tears flowed and the conversation ended.

I guess what I'm saying to you and myself is that while our belief here and probably in other aspects of life, are absolutely right, men like my b/f don't see is that way. We're challenging everything they've believed for so long that it's almost an affront to their intelligence. The man "knows" what the boy learned. For a person to change their core belief systems has to be one of the most difficult things in this world to do and until the surivivor is ready to take those first tentative steps on his own he will resist and fight anyone who tries to tell him differently.

As for him thinking that he knows what you're thinking, yeah, I've gotten that one too, but I've been more successful in fixing that one. I can usually tell, if he doesn't tell me outright, when he's getting me wrong and can let him know without a confrontation. In that situation, gentle works because once again, it's almost like a challenge to my b/f's intelligence if I tell him he's got it wrong. But in this instance it's easier because I'm explaining me. He will listen to that quite carefully since who knows me better than me?

ROCK ON.............Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#156541 - 05/16/07 09:13 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: Trish4850]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
Originally Posted By: Trish4850

Indy, my b/f and I get into this one all the time. For instance, he insists that the reason he's in therapy is to make sense of what happened. The answer in my head? You can't! How could you possibly make sense out of an adult abusing a child? This particular conversation came up a few weeks ago, but rather than argue, which I wanted to do with everything in me, I asked him if he was getting anywhere with that. Naturally, the answer was no. So I asked him why he thought that was. He didn't know, so he said he would keep trying. OK, that's fine, what do you think would be a reasonable explanation? and so on. I tried so hard to not let myself express what I knew to be the absolute right answer because I'd done that before and all it got us was tears. I let him talk it out with me, although really with himself. Unfortunately, even though I know what to do, when faced with such an absolute falsehood, I eventually said he would never find an explanation because there wasn't one to be found. The tears flowed and the conversation ended.


Wow, Trish. I think my wife could have written that same post about me. I spend so much time trying to make sense of the past, too, and I just go around and around in circles with it. I am determined there has to be some answer I'm just not finding yet. Maybe I need to stop looking for it cause it's not going to happen? Thanks, you've given me a lot to think on.

_________________________
Eddie

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#156544 - 05/16/07 10:06 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: Trish4850]
want2help Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 25
Loc: WV
Boy, there is so much here that I relate to, especially the talking about him having to see it his way, hear it his way. We too have many times gone round in circles over an issue that he's been mad at me for two years relating to how he perceived things and refusing to accept that how I meant them was totally different. I too wish I would remain calm and be able to talk him through it but I get so frustrated I just want to scream, which I don't, however the frustration eventually shows and the conversation usually ends without a resolution.

I appreciate reading about the survivor's responses and how you see through different eyes. I do feel understanding is the key, I appreciate Indy posting this and getting such good response because it helped me and I'm sure speaks for many others.

I understand the assertiveness you're speaking of. I am very passive in so many ways but I am also very independent and have a voice. When he was feeling confident in the relationship, he seemed okay with that voice, but once the triggers started, he has been speaking with a wounded voice. He says it's his cynical side that is there to protect him therefore he has trouble believing me. Do you ever hear that? Everyone else has failed to keep their commitment to him so why would I? Part of me understands and wants to be very patient yet another part wants to say no wonder they didn't - you push everyone away with cold, cynical responses. Do you feel that happens too?

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the post, the abundant information. I read more often than I reply, but I'm learning a lot.
W2H


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#156545 - 05/16/07 10:07 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: Chain Breaker]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
Quote:
"Finally, we need to learn that our partners are not our parents."

I might add that our partners need to learn not to parent us. That has been a big struggle for both my wife, who is also a survivor, and myself. We tend to trigger each other all over the place by parenting.

You say you don't do that... Well, I'd be willing to bet you do. We all do. Let's be honest and find out how and stop it. I'm talking to myself here too, guys, not throwing stones at the rest of y'all. ;\)

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#156621 - 05/17/07 09:19 AM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: WalkingSouth]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
[quote=walkingsouth]
Quote:

I might add that our partners need to learn not to parent us.


john, i know i don't do this because i raised a son and am more than happy to finally stand back and take a breath...i don't mind nurturing, encouraging, and a little nudge now and then but just as i raised my son to be independent and take care of himself, i believe each individual adult should do the same; we can lean on each other when necessary and should but it's up to us to make our own decisions and determine our own futures.

maybe because so much of my childhood and early life seemed others were making decisions effecting me w/o my approval/permission i'm very sensitive about it, i make an honest attempt not to do that to others.

with all that being said, as one who is growing on in years, i do hope those younger than me seek out my experience that i can share what i've learned from them. is that parenting? i don't know, if it is it's not a bad thing i think.

i also think maybe this could be its own thread...!

all the best,
indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#156751 - 05/17/07 08:06 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: indygal]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
I agree, that the "parenting" issue could definitely be it's own thread. I see someone started one already on this subject. I'll go read it.

I'll take your word for it, indy, and sorry for sounding confrontational in my post. I didn't realize how that sounded till I came back here this afternoon and re-read it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#156851 - 05/18/07 03:14 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: WalkingSouth]
lostcowboy Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 795
Loc: North Texas
I see that I also have to go read the Parenting thread.

Trish said, "For a person to change their core belief systems has to be one of the most difficult things in this world to do and until the survivor is ready to take those first tentative steps on his own he will resist and fight anyone who tries to tell him differently."

Trish, you sure said a mouthful. I am currently reading Sexual Anorexia by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D on page 72 figure 3.2 Core Beliefs for Three Obsessional States of mind. Draw three interlocking circles.
Core Beliefs, Common to the three states!
1. I am basically a bad unworthy person.
2. No one could love me as I am.
3. My needs are never going to be met if I have to depend on others.

Sexual Anorexics:
Sex is my most terrifying need.

Sex Addicts
Sex is my most important need.

Co-Addicts, (or codependent, (I added this word))
Sex is the most important sign of love.

Very few people are all of one type or another, there are many variations and combinations of the three types. Also couples can interact with each other. Couples can switch roles also, sometime one can be the addict, or the co-addict. Also there can be interactions with other types of addictions, deprivations.

Other types of abuse could cause this it does not have to be sexual abuse/rape that causes this.

Obviously the best way to handle this is with a therapist There are also 12 step programs for these addiction/co-addictions.
(SLAA) Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous meetings
(RCA) Recovering Couples Anonymous

After the navy, I am not ready to trust a therapist, and I am not ready to go for a 12 step program at this time. So I am just reading.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#156869 - 05/18/07 09:08 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: WalkingSouth]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: walkingsouth
I'll take your word for it, indy, and sorry for sounding confrontational in my post. I didn't realize how that sounded till I came back here this afternoon and re-read it.


john,

really there's no need to apologize i never saw your words as being confrontational, not in the least.

thanks very much for comments - i do appreciate it - i think i was a bit surprised how after people started talking this seemed to be a very good topic - and the parenting thing branched off in such a way that it did - not a problem at all.

fyi, we all have our triggers, well i guess parenting topics can be for me after coming from such a physically abusive childhood.

all the best,
indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#156871 - 05/18/07 09:17 PM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: Trish4850]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: Trish4850
men like my b/f don't see is that way. We're challenging everything they've believed for so long that it's almost an affront to their intelligence. The man "knows" what the boy learned. For a person to change their core belief systems has to be one of the most difficult things in this world to do and until the surivivor is ready to take those first tentative steps on his own he will resist and fight anyone who tries to tell him differently.


trish,
i hear what you are saying and better appreciate his need for me to accept him when he insists he is right in something like this. that's not to say i will (always) accept his insistence, just that i can better appreciate why he's insisting so strongly.

all the best,
indy



Edited by indygal (05/18/07 09:18 PM)
_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#156922 - 05/19/07 01:29 AM Re: when women assert ourselves [Re: indygal]
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hello indy,

I felt very similarly with regards to sex where my partner was concerned... that in most aspects of our relationship he respected that I could make decisions, form opinions, take care of myself, etc-- but if I never had an opinion on, or brought up the subject of, what I wanted my own sex life to look like, that would be even better.

I never heard the wicked witch stuff but there was a lot of shaming and nastiness in his responses to me when I brought up sex. Mostly, if I asked him why he didn't like sex, it was because I was sick and dirty minded. Once he became furious with me because of a joking comment I had made earlier in the day about not wanting to make love in a room where a particular, sort of creepy painting was hanging.

I asked my partner what the difference is between now and then, and he said an understanding that me talking about our sex life with him does not always mean that I am trying to have sex with him. So we are back to control, and the part that is scary and that he can't control (what I want).

Not easy.

SAR


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