I am a mother of two boys who were sexually abused by their father. I know this is a forum for men to express themselves and support each other, so I truly hope I am not intruding or offending any of you by posting.

My childern were silent about the abuse for a long time. I am so angry with myself for not "seeing it" before.
I'm sure the story is familiar to all of you, but their dad had told them that he would kill all of us if they ever told me what he was doing.

Years later, (5 years after I took them and left) they finally felt safe enough to tell me. I called DHS immediately.
In hindesite, I should have called the police and filed a report.

DHS investigated and confirmed oral/genital contact in addition to the physical and emotional abuse. And I immediately got my boys into sexual abuse counseling.

We live in Oklahoma. The DA would not prosecute and their father was not made to register as a sex offender.

As a result, the courts are forcing reconciliation between my boys and their dad. I have fought as hard as I can and there is nothing I can do to stop it.
My boys have told the judge, their attorney, and their counselor that they do not want any contact with their father, but the courts will not listen.

I know my children are feeling the same things all of you are and I don't know what else to do to help them.

Their counselor gives me advice, but she is a woman who has never been abused. So, I am asking any of you who read my post...

Is there any particular thing that you would have wanted your parent to say to you or is there anything they could have done for you?

Have any of you gone through a legal situation like this and can you offer any advice?

I have been writing legislaters trying to change/create laws - to no avail. I have contacted the Governor, Lt. Governor, and Attorney General and gone to give a speech at the Capital.
I don't understand why protecting children/people from abuse is so hard for the courts to do.
In Oklahoma, a biological parent has right to see his children no matter what he has done to them.

I am so proud of my boys for staying as strong as they can through all of this, but the court system is going to screw them up. How can they ever feel empowered when their voiced are not heard?

Know that I am with you on reform. Things need to change! I will do everything in my power to change not just my states laws, but federal law. Take care!

JD's Mom

Hi again Scorpio,

What a horror! The courts screw up, badly sometimes. I manage a family law firm and see it quite frequently. The difference here is that your boys don't have the luxury of time for the Judge to figure out he's screwing up. Sadly, I'm involved in a case right now with similar circumstances and my boss is fighting like a crazy man to keep the little boy protected, not from his father, but from his father's other son, the boy's step brother.

Back to you - keep fighting and when you lose, fight again and again and again and again. If the court is forcing reconcilation, is there at least supervised visitation so that the boys aren't alone with their father? If not, push for that while the fight to terminate vistation goes on.

The biggest problem here is that if you don't obey the court, it's a guarantee that you'll be the one to get in trouble which can only work badly for the boys. Short of running with them, which has it's own huge problems, standing and having the fight is all I can think of.

The guys will hopefully have some advice as to what you can tell them, I'm at a loss. No matter what, if they are forced to see their father, it won't be good for them.

How old are they?

ROCK ON...........Trish

Hi Scorpio,

I'm a survivor, and I thank you for your efforts to protect your boys. Children are precious.

Here's what I think you ought to do: Find out who your member of Congress is, call his/her office at the capitol and ask to speak to someone in constituent services. Tell them about your situation and ask for either a private law to protect your children or help navigating the system and stopping this injustice. Members of Congress can be very helpful in these matters, as they have powerful connections. If the plans for reconciliation are going forward, you must act right away. Your efforts may fall short, but they will allow you to know that you have left no stone unturned. On the other hand, they may bear fruit, and you and your sons can be happy together.

Also, have you sought out a child protective order or an injunction in your local courts? You can often get these even without a criminal conviction. Sometimes the administrative action of DHS can be enough to put a stop to these actions. Pull out whatever stops you can. This is going to be a battle.

no matter what you MUST protect your children; remember - a molestor is a dangerous individual, no matter that the law hasn't necessarily caught up with him yet.

all this advice is good but you should be ready to leave the state and take the children if you have to - their safety MUST be paramount - it's not easy, but the fact they will know why will certainly help.

let it be your last resort, final option - but just let it be an option.

you are their lifeline right now. plan your strategy, keep it real, don't bet 'things will work out for the best' because when family courts are involved, they rarely do. supervised visits? get real - why should your children - any child - have to spend one minute in the same room w/someone who violated them so ?

good luck, you are not alone, many mothers have gone before you, myself included.

indy

JD's Mom,

Thank you so much for being there for your boys, trust me there is nothing you could have "seen" if they were anything like me.

For your sons, make sure they know that is not there fault. Nurture them, be there for them. Most of us never had that. Most of us felt it was our fault and felt guilty. Just let them know your there for them and that they are precious and loved. Give them the protection they deserve.

Sorry I am ranting.

I wish I had mmore info on the legals but don't let their father near them unsupervised.

Hi, Chainbreaker. Thanks so much for your advice and support.

I went to court today and the jugde got angry that the boys had not visited with their dad yet. He ordered that they have to go this Friday! My childrens fathers attorney asked the judge to put a restraining order in place so that I could not talk to my kids. Your words of support were much needed after a day like today!

My children did have an order of protection during the DHS investigation. Because of it, DHS felt the boys were going to be safe, so they did not recommend services or criminal action for their dad. Boy, did that backfire!
Their dad asked for visitation/reconcilliation and the order of protection was dropped and a reconcilliation therepist was brought in. Just like that!
My kids are 16 and 13 and the courts will not take their wishes into consideration. It is so sad. I know that there are thousands of kids out there right now going through the same thing. I have got to get the public to care about this situation somehow. Just the fact that this website exists and there are so many members breaks my heart. It also makes me more determined than ever to raise public awareness and change laws!

My Lt. Governor is calling DHS on my behalf and is going to ask them why they dropped the ball and what they are going to do about it. But I hate to get my hopes up, they have been crushed so many times before!

Have you personally had to use the legislative system to get something done?

Hey Indygal! I know! Supervised visits don't protect anyone emotionally! And they are just a gateway to unsupervised visits.
I don't understand how the court system thinks!

I am giving my kids all the love and support that I can and tell them that I am fighting like hell to keep them safe, but the court system is so screwed up.
If I fight to hard to protect my kids it is possible to lose them through a myth called 'Parent Alienation Syndrome', in which the abusive parent cries his eyes out in front of the judge that the healthy parent is unfairly keeping them from their kid.
I totally agree that no child should have to spend anytime at all with an abusive parent - just because they are the parent!

Thank you for your support. I hope your case is over and ended well.

Hey P4E. Thank you so much for your reply. Somewhere in my brain I know the abuse was all secretive and hidden and there was nothing I could have seen, but my heart will not let me off the hook.
I am there for my kids as much as I can be. If you read my reply to chainbreaker, you know that I have to be very careful of what I say to my kids, and I was put down by one evaluator as being "too nurturing" to my kids to the point of hurting them! She was absolutely crazy! How can you be too nurturing to an abused child?!

I am so sorry that you didn't have that and were left to feel guilty and like it was your fault.

I really hope that you have been able to get over the guilt feelings, they can tear you up inside.
In relation to your name, my heart hopes that you will not feel pain forever because it was not your fault. You are a wonderful person who is deserving of all the great things in life.
You, too, are precious.
Your post made me cry and let me release a little bit more of the guilt I feel inside. That's big!

As for your last comment, I would take them and run before I would ever let their dad near them unsupervised! I'm tempted to do it anyway.

My son's father was violent. The courts said that just because he was violent towards me (ie adults) didn't mean that he'd necessarily be violent towards children. Therefore he should be able to have access to our baby son.

I wasn't prepared to risk it so I took the baby and ran.

20 years later I have no regrets.

Scoop your kids up and take them out of his reach. If your youngest is 13, then there's only a few years before he'll reach an age where no-one, not even a court, will be able to make him see his father.

The practicalities of running are not easy. Your kids will have to leave their school and their friends. You'll need to change your name and find a school you can trust to keep your boys safe. You'll have to decide which friends/family you can trust - all others will have to be cut from your life.

But from my experience, it's worth it.
SB x

modteam deleted my advice to you w/o first posting a message here; they said something about it being illegal for you to move out of state w/your own children? huh? rather than expose them to a father who sexually abused them?

no, it's not, you can do it and i hope you do - even if there's a court order in place you can move out of state, file under a different state's jurisdiction, find one that's more supportive of abused children; apparently oklahoma is not? what nonsense.

i feel for you and hope you find the strength to get thru this - again, don't wait for the law to change for you - politicians just want to ride along on your good graces, the wheels of justice turn extremely slow - don't jeopardize your children's safety in the meantime thinking it was going to be ok,

keep your children safe *first* and change the law *second*

indy

How strong ARE those boys?

How about going to the DA (with your boys) and have them TELL him what he did to them. Insist that he file charges against the father, or you will start a public campaign (letter writing, public speeches) denouncing his so-called public service to your community. Call him, and set up an appointment to see him, then bring those 2 already brave kids in with you and make him listen to them. Or, instead of dragging those boys through this, bring their counselors with you and let THEM tell the DA of what they're going through!

The point is, if you can have charges pending (of an abusive nature) against him, he probably won't be able to have access to the kids until he's found not guilty.

My thoughts are with you.

OK...YOU need a better attorney! This is no arena for amatures. This is life and death!

I'd do all I can to get a pit-bull attorney on your side. One that will invoke the power of the press, the governor and shame the courts in to submission!

There has GOT to be a psycho-mean atty who instills fear in the hearts of anyone through the very mention of his name. Cant find him? Ask other attornys. THEY know who he is. Trust me on this!!

The ONE thing courts fear.........PUBLIC SCRUTINY!!!

The ONE thing the polititicans fear......PUBLIC SCRUTINY!!!

I understand and share the sentiments expressed above.

Sentiment aside, however, kidnapping is a crime in all US states, and crossing a state line makes it a federal crime. One parent can be charged with kidnapping in exactly the situations described above. It is the obligation of this site to call attention to that fact.

no, dewey, you are not correct in this assumption - only if one hides the child in violation of a court order;

it is certainly possible and legal to move one's residence; (unless in such a rare case it has been specifically stipulated under a court order signed by a judge that the person is not allowed to do so ) and if one informs the court, and as i also suggested, files in a different jurisdiction, certainly that is NOT hiding anything - it is only making it more difficult for the other party to have access.

*another option* is of course to file civil damages against him; hopefully that might also pull some weight with the court and politicians just in case there is any lingering doubt that you are not serious or the claims are not justified.

i wish you all the luck and this is all i have to say about this - there are umpteen resources on the internet to help you find a better "junkyard dog" type atty - as the guys were saying -

indy

JD's Mom,

Speaking for everyone here, I'd like to urge you to do everything WITHIN the law to protect your children. It is your duty as a mother and a member of the human race and certainly no one will fault you for it.

Indygal,

Your post is being returned to it's original content as I know you truly did not mean to advise any illegal action.

I know each poster on this thread is being very careful when offering advise that they not advise another individual to break the law.

Scorpio,

Frankly, all this sickens me and I am rather tempted to second Soapy Bubbles. Get your kids and scram out of Oklahoma. The problem is that the courts might just pursue you wherever you go.

What really blows me away is that your older son is 16 and the courts still seek to try to force reconciliation on him. So far as I know, the trend these days is to grant more and more legal rights to a boy once he reaches 16.

If this isn't the case in Oklahoma, then again, maybe the answer lies in getting out and establishing residence in another state. But seek legal advice on this one. You don't want to go from the frying pan to the fire.

Much love,
Larry

Hey! What if you got a job offer from out of state? (hint, hint), wouldn't THAT be a viable (and LEGAL) excuse to move out of state? (with the boys).

ok, well, wasn't going to say anything else but seems i am anyway....

the thing is, courts don't pursue cases like this on their own because they are too busy and overloaded already - it's the other party (in this case the sleazoid father) who is more than likely putting pressure on the court to do something.

now, a lot has been said here before about how csa is a result of a power trip and this is a situation where that really rings true -

this is *not* your typical custody battle where the parents just can't agree - this is *not* a situation where the father is being ripped from his children and really cares about them - this is, more than likely (and i'd bet a dollar on it) a case where he has put himself front and center in this court situation in order to (1) intimidate the boys (2) intimidate their mother and hopefully, not be charged w/a crime - if that's at all possible - and/or avoid them ever coming after him in the future - that is, to strike fear in their hearts (see, i still have the power over you to see you whenever i want)

by staying w/i the jurisdiction of this court, in ok, you are in a sense, also on his turf, to go ahead and take a chance on a new life elsewhere, you change the entire dynamics of the relationship, put a finality in place he cannot, and will not, be able to change, if he even bothered to try.

chances are he's such a f___up anyway he's not going to even bother trying to file for visitation rights in another state....hence it could possibly be a very good thing for your boys not to have to worry about this - or worry about having to see him again, at least in the near future.

i can only imagine what kind of internal conflict they must be experiencing now - and the possibility of having to see him up close again - jees - it boggles one's mind!!

so jd's mom - i admire your determination to try and get the laws changed after having experienced first hand their backwardness and definitely unprogressive purpose, but again, i urge you to focus on the immediate task at hand, which is to secure yourself and your family in an environment where you have more control over the situation.

there are websites which list the various laws for each state regarding statutes and childhood abuse. do some more research, talk to more attys and see what can be done should you decide to move out of state, as i suggested originally.

is it also possible your attempts at changing the laws in the here and now a way of absolving yourself of guilt - maybe because you somehow blame yourself for having married the man??

it's also worth noting he could very well wind up w/a new girlfriend/wife, one who also has children, or has more of his own, so there's another reason for him to want to silence his past victims - that could get really ugly if you were living in the same vicinity - how would you deal w/it? perhaps he might start living w/someone new who has children ? could you deal with it? would you tell her about him? and what do the courts say about this? i'd be right on top of them asking them point blank, what are you all going to do about this man as he's a danger and a menace to society...

didn't mean this to be so long it just rankles me no end what you and your boys are going thru, and this s.o.b. just walks...

all the best,
indy

Scorpio,

How are you and the kids?

Trish

Hey Everyone! Thank you for all your replies and advice! I forgot all my sign in information, so I have been trying forever to log back on!

The kids are doing good for now, thanks for asking Trish!
Here is where things stand for now; our judge gave ME a 3 year protective order (?), and wrote an order stating that my ex can not have any contact with the kids until further order of the court, except to send them letters and cards.

I know my major concern was not about child support, but (FYI) he owes the kids over $5000 in support. He cried to the judge that he has no money to live on and he is just barely scraping by himself - so the judge let it go! He did not order him to pay it!
Not that I really want it from him, but I felt that at least if he had to pay that back monthly, he might not be able to afford to take me back to court, you know?
(Now I keep having nightmares that my ex has kidnapped the boys) Everytime he feels like he has won, it just makes him more bold. I am scared of what he might do. Maybe the judge was too since he gave ME the protective order. Even that is a scarey thought!

But, it left it completely open for my ex to file an "appeal", since he has never been officially charged with anything. Believe me, Hauser, I have gone round and round with the DA - called all the legislators, the Governor, Lt. Gov., you name it I have been on their doorsteps.
But, I did not take the kids to speak with the DA in person though - I know they are strong enough to do it! I will talk to them about it and see how they feel. Thank you for that idea!
And, YES, it is rediculous for a judge to force a 16 YO to see an abusive father when he doesn't want to, but from what I have heard, it happens a lot here.

It is probably wrong of me, but I have tried to shield them from as much of this as I possibly can. I have been let down by so many people so many times, I just hate to put them through it, too.
But I do think letting them take on some of it would be good for them and it may open a few doors that are closed to me!

Anyway - I have tried to get anyone and everyone to put what is going on in the court in the spotlight, I just can't make it happen! I don't understand why everyone is so sympathetic to the abuser!!!

Indy, your advice was right on- I already had moving to different state, changing my name and home schooling the kids on my mind. Even at their ages, if the court allows my ex access to them, it is probably what I'll do.
I just have to find a "kid sympathetic" state to "get a job offer from" and go ask for their help. It seems like every other state is just as bad though.
And, right again, I do blame myself for marrying him and not "seeing the abuse" while it was happening.
I don't think I will get over the guilt until my kids are fully grown and I see that they are going to REALLY be OK.
And, I have posed the same statement to the DA about my ex being dangerous to all children and all the different scinarios that may happen without him locked-up, but it does not motivate them to do anything!

I have noticed though, that in my county, most child sexual abusers have already had many, many complaints about them before the DA arrests them. By the time they are actually arrested they have already abused hundreds of children. It is rediculous that this issue HAS BEEN in the media, but it seems like everyone just accepts it as "the way it is".

I just want to thank all of you for your help and support and let you know how much it means to me that you all care and are willing to help.
I have not gotten that anywhere else and it means so much coming from all of you, because I know you know what you are talking about. You have experienced it.

I hope that where ever you all are tonight that you are well and at peace. I'm sending you good thoughts and prayers!

Be well and keep in touch!

Michele

I started reading this ... it made me sick, mad .furious more mad than anything else i have read in here... how could our legal system do this to children how could a DA not prosecute a child abuser? i dont get it.... i didnt read all of the posts just the first couple and then the last one i hope every thing works our for you and your kids Michele

I really have to thank you for coming here! I really admire you!! I am so sorry for what you had to go through. The best thing a parent can be is exactly what you are being, let yourself off the hook!!

I am going to prosecute these bastards one day.
JT