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#151454 - 04/18/07 11:30 AM Media Headache Coming?
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
Just read this about the Virginia Tech shooter:

Cho wrote a play called "Richard McBeef" in which he describes a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia. The story ends with the boy's death.

Another piece, called "Mr. Brownstone," has three high-school students facing an abusive teacher.

"I wanna kill him," says one character.

"I wanna watch him bleed like the way he made us kids bleed," says another.


If there turn out to be survivor issues involved in Cho's rampage, there may be a lot of ugly attacks on male survivors in the press. I don't know if we've got any way of coping personally or responding publicly, but the finger-pointing is already getting out of control and nobody's latched onto the survivor angle.

Stay strong, my friends -- could be a lot of triggers coming...

MV


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#151459 - 04/18/07 12:09 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: MemoryVault]
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Its funny how we always expect the finger to be pointed at us.
This tragedy will not be blamed on him being abused, it was
more to do with a girl he was besotted with.

Nobody can know when someone decides to use their anger as a
weapon to kill, but some signs where there and nobody took
notice.

Hindsight or finger pointing is not going to raise the dead,
neither does the thoughts of the masses.
He was an obvious psychopath, just one of the many amongst us,

ste


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#151479 - 04/18/07 01:46 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: reality2k4]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I think Cho was a survivor who lacked the support and courage to seek help. I bet he was perped. I could be wrong, but my GUT FEELING is that he was a victim of CSA.


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#151495 - 04/18/07 02:34 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: MemoryVault]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: MemoryVault
I don't know if we've got any way of coping personally or responding publicly, but the finger-pointing is already getting out of control and nobody's latched onto the survivor angle.


Survivor angle has already come up, in the more "thoughtful" journals. I was reading a blog this morning where a therapist said she thought he was an abuse survivor.

_________________________
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#151556 - 04/18/07 07:05 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Nobbynobs]
Lloydy Offline
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http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

That's the link to the 'plays'

Reading them I'm sure he was a victim of abuse, almost certainly sexual. Just how many clues are there in those writings?

Everything is there, revenge, the graphic details, the 'feel-good' of the casino win, the expectation of being the 'loser' and the subsequent loss of the win.
Even the style of writing has the essence of a fast running fantasy / dissociation to it.

I'm not an expert, never professed to be one either, I'm a survivor who's made an effort to understand what goes on in order to help myself, everything else I've learned is a bonus.

People were reading this stuff he'd written, far better educated and informed people than me, didn't someone spot that this kid was having problems?
Or am I sounding like one of the army of TV 'experts' ?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#151565 - 04/18/07 07:37 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Lloydy]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
I had a different take of McBeef. It appeard as though Cho was Mcbeef. The spoiled kid, the over protective, irrational women...both use to wealth. How McBeef hadnt actully commited any offense but underwent all this attack until he finally snapped at the end. Maybe cho saw that as himself, being unjustly attacked.

I actully dont believe he underwent any sexual abuse. I think he turned psychotic. Isolated and introveted with his thoughts, fantasies and angers for too long that the line blurred and something trivial set him off. Brings to mind Marc Lapine who hated feminists. Cho hated rich kids and women.



Edited by jamie' (04/18/07 07:39 PM)
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#151577 - 04/18/07 08:22 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
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Loc: Toronto
Marc Lepine hated everyone, but he especially hated women.

Here is a good psych-based assessment of that Cho guy, from a blogger I know:

http://everyoneneedstherapy.blogspot.com/

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#151621 - 04/18/07 11:34 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Nobbynobs]
runaround Offline
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I think Cho was sexually abused as a child. My gut feeling is that the fact that he never made eye contact with people and hardly ever spoke was due to shame and a secret he was trying to protect. I think the secret of the abuse finally ate him alive. Notice also the rage in his two plays towards older male figures including a stepfather and male teacher his characters wanted to kill. These father figures I think are the real targets for the rage.

I think in his videos he was talking to a real person, rather than all people. I think he wanted to bring shame upon this person by killing a bunch of innocent bystanders. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, but as someone who was sexually abused by his father, I can relate to much of Chos rage including wanting to get even and wanting to act it out. I got help for my rage, shame and terror issues, though. Its too bad he didnt get the help he needed so that he could have talked it out instead of acting it out.


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#151656 - 04/19/07 06:04 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: runaround]
reality2k4 Offline
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His classmates already had him down as "a school shooter*.
The writings were assessed by a psychologist, and dismissed
as fantasy.

I dont think anyone could have foretold the horror ahead, but in
hindsight, we all see the clues.
There are many pieces to this jigsaw, and blaming one aspect
will never lead us to the cause.

Lets face it, he should have had some level of support, but
he did not.
If you track it back to his childhood, who knows what he has
witnessed, or been made to do.

He obviously did not fit into society, that is all they may
ever know,

ste


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#151664 - 04/19/07 07:08 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: reality2k4]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6358
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Of course guys, you know it was the gun's fault. That ought to take lot of the media attention andvery limited time off of survivors.

They seem to be treating his potential "abuse issues" in a foregone-conclusion mode. That is, they say "victim of abuse"...the public automatically has their well in-grained conclusion surronding that....and "that" seems to be the vampire syndrome et. al.

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#151668 - 04/19/07 07:41 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Still]
melliferal Offline
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Posts: 1159
No, guys - there were all kinds of signs, certainly, but people saw them. His students and even some of his teachers were so afraid of him, he was even removed from one of his classes. Everyone knew there was something wrong with this guy. He didn't just "snap" one day; he was ALWAYS like this.

The problem here isn't that "nobody noticed", the problem is that nobody could do anything about it. What could anyone have done? He was ordered by a court to undergo therapy, but he didn't. He was asked to stay away from people who were scared of him, but he wouldn't. Until someone does something illegal, nobody can force him to do anything or restrict his freedoms in any way.

I personally see no compelling reason to think this guy was a CSA survivor. And even if he was, I refuse to have any empathy for him - for one, because he's dead; for another, because he crossed the line. Right now he's nothing but a murderer; to try and relate to him by considering that he might've been a CSA survivor is too close to trying to make an excuse for him. In any case, he made clear on his tape to NBC to whom all his rage was leveled; he says not a word about abusers or pedophiles.

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#151673 - 04/19/07 08:20 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: melliferal]
Nobbynobs Offline
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I'm with you Mel. So what if he was a CSA survivor. It's no excuse to hurt or kill other people.

In any case, there are several mental conditions that have symptoms similar to PTSD (PTSD being the "characteristic" CSA condition) so his actions could have been as a result of delusional thinking, or any number of other non-CSA related causes.

Or maybe, as a good therapist friend of mine puts it, he was just outright crazy. Some people are so far gone that it is impossible to unravel their stories or even come up with a diagnosis of their condition.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#151697 - 04/19/07 12:16 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Nobbynobs]
jamie' Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Its classic that the public need to know why. Why did they do it, what led them there ect. Cho killed himself and not much was known so people jump to conclusions based on the smallest bits of information. People like those psychiatrist and Nobs friend make at best, valid psychological profiles by disecting single traits and fitting them into the DSM-IV. Public starts pointing fingers based on that or jumping to their own conclusions. And we are here talking about it, because people want to know why. He was troubled obviously, but alot of people are. And being troubled in itself is no excuse for a shooting rampage that ends in suicide. I'm troubled and i'd take a guess that a few of you are aswell. If any of us decided to go out and shoot a bunch on people i'd be positive CSA would be brought up once it was over, whether it was related to the reason or not that one snapped. It would just make the public feel better at knowing there was a cause. Then bringing up political issues to say that it could have been avoided...and a tragic event becomes a one or a groups political platform.

Also consider the idea that had cho been stopped after the first incident this wouldnt of hardly made any news. Nobody would have cared. Or been interested in why it happened. And its stuff like that which is so troubling about society. I'm also sure theres cho fansites up about now aswell.And after seeing the pictures and stuff he sent to the news i'm more convinced he was attempting to be a martyr. And provide all these disturbing/interesting articles so he could be studied. So he wouldnt be forgotten. Troubled is as best a diagnosis there will get. Anything more detailed from a psychological point of view requires face time. Real interaction for a proper diagnosis. And there would of been no preventing it, even with psychiatric care. Plus being weird isnt a cause for hospitalization.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#151712 - 04/19/07 02:45 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Still]
runaround Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 3
I can appreciate other abuse survivors not wanting to feel unfairly attacked by the media for Chos chosen actions. Its probably like the south Korean community not wanting to be blamed as well. Even if Cho was abused as a child, like I think he was, that has nothing to do with this community of survivors.

Like the Korean community, there are way too many in this survivor community who dont go onto commit horrendous crimes that any correlation by the media is just ignorance, which may have to be addressed through education. So far, I dont see any media types blaming adult male survivors as a group.

The group I see the media going after is Chos other community, the gun owners group, which is something that we as a society have some control over and can do something about.


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#151715 - 04/19/07 03:04 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: runaround]
reality2k4 Offline
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What he did was nothing about being abused, it was about a fantasist who had set the play for a bloodbath.
Its not the work of a madman who just lost it, but a carefully
planned attack and eventual suicide.

He was isolated by others who he saw as enemies, because they did not like, and indeed were scared of his plays.
You see how he blames society for his fate.
This is the work of a psychopath, a bomb waiting to go off.

He has probably planned this since Columbine, and thought he would be seen as some 'hero' to all the other sickos who would do similar things.
There simply is NO acceptable answer for what he did.

Maybe they should not have shown the videos so soon, but it shows that he was in control of the whole event and it was all planned.
Why? Did the police move away from the campus to find the killer!
There should have been a lock down, and the cops should have searched the scene without diversion.

It was one big cockup by the cops, and interestingly, the gun lobby is pretty quiet,

ste


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#151759 - 04/19/07 06:18 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Still]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Great link Nobby'

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#151774 - 04/19/07 07:23 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Lloydy]
Trish4850 Offline
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Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
For an indivdual to have no empathy whatsoever for others or even himself is the exception to every rule of humanity. I wish he was alive so we could find some answers but at the same time, I'm very glad he's dead.

Trish

_________________________
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#151802 - 04/19/07 10:31 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: melliferal]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal,

Originally Posted By: melliferal
I personally see no compelling reason to think this guy was a CSA survivor. And even if he was, I refuse to have any empathy for him - for one, because he's dead; for another, because he crossed the line. Right now he's nothing but a murderer; to try and relate to him by considering that he might've been a CSA survivor is too close to trying to make an excuse for him. In any case, he made clear on his tape to NBC to whom all his rage was leveled; he says not a word about abusers or pedophiles.


I agree with you 100%. There are SO many survivors - the vast majority - who don't come even close to violence against others in their reactions to what was done to them as boys. IF he was a victim of CSA at one point that doesn't give him a pass to commit murder. As you say, that's all he is now, a murderer.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#151809 - 04/19/07 11:07 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: roadrunner]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
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deleted. Just realised this is the public forum. I'll repost this on the private side.



Edited by Nobbynobs (04/19/07 11:12 PM)
_________________________
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- Mel Brooks

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#151851 - 04/20/07 10:31 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
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MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
A couple of things...

First, I have not seen enough evidence to determine one way or another whether or not Cho was abused. In part this is because I have chosen to avoid a lot of the media hype surrounding this incident because the grief and horror we all feel, and the media plays up, get in the way of cool headed evaluation of the facts.

Secondly, I just want to point out that it's very easy for people to "see" similarities in almost everyone they look at. The girl who seems to be crying on the train next to you could be feeling sad for any number of reasons; the person passing you on the street whose face is stern must be angry, but perhaps he's just won the lottery is trying ot contain his excitement. The point is our first reaction to seeing something outside ourselves is to compare it to ourselves for reference. Therefore I would be very cautious about saying that I was sure Cho was abused because I can relate in such and such a way to his experessions of pain. Until and unless you have the chance to talk to and really get to know someone, it's very easy to be deceived about who they truly are.

Lastly, I really really really really really really really really really cannot stand any mention of abuse, or his victimhood relating to this tragedy. In the rush to make sense of a senseless act of violence, the knee-jerk reaction of everyone is to search for reasons why any human being could be so cut off from a basic sense of morality, could be so depraved and indifferent about themselves and their fellow man. All we can say is that this person was broken, in a terrible, horrific, and absolute way. Anything that happened to him (abuse, exposure to violent messages in the same media that now seeks to explain him, and/or social rejection) were merely influences that all worked to subtly shift him fuirther and further away from "healthy" or at the very least "delusional but not psychotic" to "murderous savage". No one thing pushed him over the edge, and anyone who points to any influence be it abuse, violence, or rejection misses the truth by a wide mark and promotes an ignorant bias that only serves to further stimatize those who struggle and conquer the self-same challenges on a daily basis.

What made him do it? Something tragically flawed inside Cho himself. Why did this have to happen? Because Cho never asked for the help he needed so desperately. That's all anyone can safely say about this without making life harder on those who struggle to overcome our own emotional challenges. How can you stop a madman like this? The terrible truth is that there may simply be no way to stop this kind of psychosis. Any attempt to "save future lives" by stigmatizing victims, in the hopes of preventing them from turning into future Cho's will only serve to make healing that much harder for the victims, and do nothing to encourage the others among the suffering masses to step forward and ask ho0nestly and hopefully for the help and healing they so desperately need.



Edited by tartugas (04/20/07 10:32 AM)
_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#151929 - 04/20/07 07:20 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: tartugas]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
To further underscore how the Cho situation REALLY compares with our own situation, consider what people are saying. The questions being asked, the thoughts being 'thunk', the theories being proferred by the victims and their families. "What made Cho do something like that?" "What was he thinking?" "How can we stop this from happening again?" "Why US?" I don't know about you, but these questions seem awfully familar to me.

I, for one (and I think I may have said something like this before about pedos), am not in any particular hurry to understand what Cho was thinking when he did what he did. I just get this dreadful feeling that if I understood what was going on in his mind, there would be something seriously wrong with me.

As I indicated before, I see little hope of ever preventing another sociopath from finally executing some master plan of horror, in much the same way that I won't put any money on us ever being able to reliably identify dangerous pedophiles and intervene before they cause any pain. I remain convinced that in both cases, salvation lies not in intercepting the threats, but in educating and empowering potential victims before they become real victims.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#152130 - 04/21/07 07:51 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: tartugas]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I still think that 'something' in his past, probably abuse, became some kind of catalyst to this man's murderous behaviour.
I have no feelings of sadness over his demise, only for his innocent victims.
And I agree 100% that abuse can never be used as an excuse for extreme behaviours such as this, but we can't discount it as a factor either.

Of course I could be wrong, I've only read the media's take on this and his writings, and seen his video.
The truth is we'll never know unless others come forward who knew Cho and an accurate picture of his past can be made, but that will never give us what was actually going on inside his mind.

I also think that it is important to try and understand what happened, society has a duty to try and understand so we can work towards possible interventions in the future.
Obviously we can't create these conditions as an experiment, so in the same way as doctors have studied the effects of things like PTSD on people who already suffer with it, then Cho's behaviours and actions must be studied. However distasteful that might seem.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#152389 - 04/23/07 12:05 PM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Lloydy]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
This will happen again. It's only a matter of time. Unless, of course, we do away with this silly notion of "gun-free" zones. If just ONE of those students were packing, he/she could have STOPPED him, but he/she COULDN'T because of the infinite wisdom that Virgina's lawmakers, who only just last year voted down a bill that would have allowed conceal/carry permits on college campuses.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_amendment/va_campus_gun_bill_gets_shot_down.htm

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Instead they want us to rely on 911 and swat teams arriving hours later and sticking their weapons in the faces of already terrorized students. Amazing that these people keep being re-elected.


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#152554 - 04/24/07 07:06 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Hauser]
Chain Breaker Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Michigan
What I see as a tragedy is that Cho had such easy access to a handgun. He bought it legally! Maybe now the Virginia legislature will consider some decent gun control laws. I work in a university, and I am grateful that we have rules prohibiting guns on campus. If universities start allowing students to carry guns, shootings will increase. Nothing personal, Alan, we just disagree on this one.

_________________________
My name is Joe. I am a survivor and a good man. You can count on me.

CB

"[Insert your name here], I am [Chain Breaker]. Do you see that I am your friend? Can you see that you will always be my friend?"
--Wind In His Hair, Dances With Wolves

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#152581 - 04/24/07 11:44 AM Re: Media Headache Coming? [Re: Chain Breaker]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Hey, no apologies necessary, and I would share your opinion on this matter EXCEPT for one minor thing, government simply does NOT deliver on it's promises.

Our government pledged to eliminate drug abuse and drugs are cheaper and just as readily readily available.

Our government promised to eliminate poverty, and now we have generations of people dependent on the government handouts for food and medical care.

Our government promised to make our retirements secure with "social security", and we all know it's going to collapse before I get to retire AFTER having put money into it for my whole life.

And promises promises promises. I won't go into how many promises our government has made and failed to deliver. (I CAN if you want me to). But if you feel that their promise to protect you buy making guns illegal will work, well,....I honestly don't know where you get your faith.

If you criminalize drugs, only thugs like the Crypts and the Bloods will sell drugs. If you criminalize alcohol, only thugs like Al Capone will sell it. If you make handguns illegal,.................well I think I've said enough.

Oh, and from what I recall, handguns a TOTALLY banned in Washington D.C., and they have one of the highest murder rates in the country?




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