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#150681 - 04/13/07 03:55 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: Lloydy]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Lloydy

I also know that my wife knows about my fantasies, and the fact I acted them out as well, so is she wondering what fantasy is running through my head? Probably, and the thought of her thinking that is crushing for me.

Eventually my mind becomes flooded with contradictive thoughts and ideas, guilt comes along and kills the moment and I roll over finished, and silent.


Dave,

Despite the fact that B' adamantly denies EVER fantasizing or thinking about anything when we're in bed together, I know that that's not true. I really don't get why a man his age would even bother denying it, though I assume he's got major shame and guilt issues related to his fantasy life, whatever it entails. Also, his protests of denial that he's ever "thinking about anything" while having sex with me, always leave me with the feeling that I am in the company of a child, and I do not mean this in any demeaning way at all. It certainly makes sense to me that at some level his overall development was arrested way back during the CSA years (from age 6-12), especially when it comes to discussing sex, and in a personal and mature way (read, not chummy yuk-yuks with the guys).

I have tried countless times to tell him that whatever they are, it's perfectly natural and normal to have fantasies AND to have them while having sex with someone...even, on occasion, to be fantasizing about someone other than the person we're with at the time. As far as I know, without sexually arousing thoughts/images in our minds, the mood for sex--with anyone--is going to die pretty quickly, whether you're male or female, and whether an SA survivor or not.

I do not always feel a need to know what his fantasies are, whether he's in bed with me at the time or not, and I certainly don't need to know all of them. I too have fantasies it's unlikely I'd ever divulge to anyone, though with enough trust and confidence in my partner's understanding and acceptance (etc) of me, I might be willing to share them at some point with that person. Sometimes, though not often, I can be having sex with B' and thinking about other men (usually faceless ones) having some kind of involvement, but the underlying theme for me is still US. Regardless, in our case I don't try to share ANY of my fantasies with B' anymore, as this just triggers him in countless ways, no matter what the content. Even the mere hint that I might want to talk about such things is enough to get him severely agitated.

Obviously, I can't speak for your wife, but I can tell you what inevitably comes up for me when B' and I are in bed together...thoughts and awarenesses I try desperately to block out (or override with fantasies of my own).

Often enough, things start out with me feeling like he's at least somewhat "present" with me--something that gets me feeling really, really good and is a real turn-on for me. Within minutes, however, I inevitably get the clear sense that B' has "left the building," at which point I start feeling insecure, anxious, unattractive to him, hurt, frustrated, resentful, abandoned, rejected, etc. This never used to be the case, but given our history, it is certainly true for me now and has been for a long time.

I worry about what's going on for him--how he might be perceiving me (if he's thinking of me at all), what might be turning him off about being with me at the time, who and what he might be turning to/enjoying in his head, etc. Obviously, by this point I'm no longer really "present" either and the whole scenario becomes (no doubt for both of us) one of just trying to get us both off as soon as possible, before the ability to even get that far dissipates entirely. [Possible Triggers here] Usually, getting off is not a problem for me, but under such circumstances I'm basically just masterbating myself with his body, which tends to leave me feeling really alone and empty. Meanwhile, he often has trouble getting off and if/when he does it tends to take a long time, with me basically trying to help get him there (as quickly as possible) when I've long since lost the mood. Still, somehow I usually end up feeling that if I can at least hang in there long enough for him to cum (if he can at all), the experience will leave a better feeling aftertaste/memory for both of us than otherwise. Either way, it's not a recipe for breeding closeness and comfort.

Do I worry that he's probably fantasizing about someone else when we're in bed together? You bet. And it hurts. HUGE. I know he looks at porn. I know, for example, that he meets women on the road who excite him. I know that he's had at least two other lovers since we first began seeing each other. I know that he says at least one of those was someone he found hugely exciting and thoroughly enjoyable (it's worth noting that this was NOT someone he was seriously involved with...she was more like the "woman who gets hammered in a bar" that you describe in one of your posts). And he says he doesn't EVER fantasize about me anymore.

What gets me worrying about what's (who's) going on in his head when we're having sex and what hurts so much is that I feel like it's never about me/us. That I don't "do it" for him. That while I'm getting turned on by the closeness, scent, taste, sight, etc, of him, and the idea of being WITH HIM--of being US and together in such a personal, private and meaningful way--he's likely doing all he can to be somewhere else, thinking about something/someone else entirely, just to keep himself turned on enough to have sex with me at all. It's an excruciatingly painful, lonely, humiliating, negating and upsetting feeling.

Having said all that, it's important to add that (on the basis of my past experience with former lovers) I do not believe that I'd find the idea of him fantasizing about someone else nearly so upsetting and threatening if we had a happy, healthy, active sex life together. In fact, there are, however infrequently, times when I might even be turned on by the idea of him being turned on by someone/something else at the time, IF he was sharing the fantasy with me and I felt able to accomodate or play along with it for him. The very sharing of certain fantasies, even sometimes those involving others, can be a hugely exciting and bonding experience, strengthening rather than weakening my sense of connection and joy with my lover. To feel that something I'm doing is exciting him or heightening his pleasure is a hell-uv-an aphrodisiac.

Hopefully I haven't wandered too far off point here. In our case, it's the secrets (his), the not knowing, the inability to even acknowledge, discuss or explore these things with him, that makes it all feel that much more difficult. And most of all, it's my awareness that he finds sex with me such a trial, and increasingly, an utterly unappealling proposition.

You know, B' stayed the night here again last night. And as we lay cuddling this morning I could feel his body showing signs of arousal from time to time, but neither of us gave any sign of acknowledging this...to do so has become far too "dangerous" feeling somehow. I got up mourning over it all and trying not to show it. I sat in the livingroom trying not to wonder if, now that he had some privacy, he was masterbating in my bed. Whether he was or not, I longed for him to want me in there with him, to want ME. And after he got up to shower I couldn't help, as I made the bed, but look for any sign of his having been masterbating...a fact that I know would really piss him off.

I have become so hypervigilant, so hypersensitive, so...pathetic?...about it all. And yet, I probably would have avoided having sex with him anyway--which is a brand new development for me--because I just don't think I can handle another unhappy sexual experience with him right now. Why? Because in my mind it would only reaffirm for him that the problem is one of incompatibility...that I just don't turn him on and that's that. I don't see things that way, but it hardly matters when he won't consider any other possibility/explanation.

I know that you've been open with your wife about much of this stuff and even if it hasn't changed things much for you two sexually, you're a hell-uv-a-lot farther ahead to be able to do so than not. The secrets and the power they can retain are what, for me, kill the most.

Stride



Edited by stride (04/13/07 04:06 PM)
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#150696 - 04/13/07 04:30 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: honey girl]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
P.S. What do I do??? I want so much to send this thread to him, or at least talk with him about this stuff today. Somewhere in F & F this morning I read lostcowboy's post about how he'd hasn't had sex with his wife since 1990. It really upset me. I'm afraid that if I don't/can't talk about this stuff with B', our current relationship as lovers who aren't sexual with each other will either just go on and on and on the way it is, or will end with him leaving me for someone else.

Meanwhile, I'm the one who proposed this "new arrangement" of ours and we're only 12 days into it. I want to talk about this stuff WITH HIM, and in a way that he can hear...in a way that will open up the lines of understanding & communication more...in a way that might draw us closer, rather than push him away.

Dave, you suggested that perhaps you (our partners) need to be "upset" more? Care to elaborate?

WHAT DO I DO?

Stride
P.S. The Zibergeld book is an excellent one. The updated version was recommended to me by a sex therapist a few years back and I've read it many times (B' won't go near it). The book is called: "The New Male Sexuality: The Truth about Men, Sex, and Pleasure," by Bernie Zibergeld, PhD (Bantam Books, 1992). I found it in a used bookstore. Definitely worth reading.




Edited by stride (04/13/07 04:35 PM)
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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#150701 - 04/13/07 04:48 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
selene Offline
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Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 221
Loc: midwest
.



Edited by selene (10/04/07 04:17 AM)
_________________________
"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye." ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupery from The Little Prince

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#150705 - 04/13/07 04:54 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Sorry, one last thing: Another reason I'm so reluctant to try'n talk about these things with B' now is that I know he loves me and doesn't want to hurt me. I'm sure he worries that his being with me only keeps me from the kind of happiness I (or anyone) deserve. Soooo, in addition to everything else, I'm now afraid that rather than trying to slog through all of this stuff with me, he'd just say he can't help the way he is/feels, it's not working for either of us, so it'd be best that we just not see each other as anything more than friends anymore.

That's all very well and good, save for the immeasurable, very special and clearly abiding love/connection we have--something we've each tried to get past many times before, only to find ourselves, respectively, coming face-to-face with the realization
that there's no one else we want to be with. We BOTH want to be together, the only difference there, it seems to me, being that he's much much better at disconnecting himself from his feelings, which enables him to carry on indefinitely, with or without me, telling himself whatever he needs to to rationalize things.

The fear of abandonment is mine.

Stride

_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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#150707 - 04/13/07 05:17 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: selene]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
"... ok, perhaps i'm weird or childish, but i have never been able to think of anything more arousing and exciting than what i'm doing at the time and who i'm doing it with ..."

Which are sexually arousing thoughts. I didn't mean to infer that one had to thinking or fantasizing about something other than what/who is happening at the time. And yeh, most the time I'm thinking the kind of things you are.

Selene, I have tried to talk to him about all of these things. Many, MANY times. And yes, I have also told him about times like this morning when I've "wondered." His reaction to my sharing about the latter has ranged from anger to disgust to laughter and denial. It's rarely, if ever, felt productive.

I am also aware of his anxieties about his "equipment," performance, etc--always have been--and have done all I can to help alleviate those worries for him. The only signs in all these years that that's helped at all though, are (1) his having finally become willing to go see a dr about getting the pre>
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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#150719 - 04/13/07 07:18 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Stride
"But more than that, I quickly became of aware of just how panicked I was at the idea, and so sure, no doubt quite rightly, that if we did give it a go it would end up being yet another disappointment for us both."

We - both partners - seem to be in a Catch 22 situation that neither side is brave enough, or confident enough, to break out of.
More circular behaviour / thinking perhaps?

Kathryn
"And relatedy, because, like you, Rob's fantasies arose out of his sexual abuse, I don't know how to "play" with these fantasies in the way I might be able to if he were just an average bisexual man with bisexual fantasies."

I think I know what your getting at here, correct me if I'm wrong though.
I know that I'm not gay or bi in the regularly accepted manner, I have no desire for any kind of relationship with a man - sexual or otherwise. The confusion that arose for me came from the bj fantasies before I had therapy, I was confused, but not any more.
But I don't think that's your point.
"If" we as partners were in a relationship that was so open and free that it accomodated one partner being bisexual, then the chances are that the sex within the partnership would be based upon the ability to share EVERYTHING. So there would be no shocks, no guilt, no shame, no wondering "what if", there would be total confidence in being able to communicate - no matter what was being requested or suggested. The answer might be "No, piss off !" but there would be no problem in asking.
People have open sex lives, sex shops prove it. Millions of sex toys and films are sold, people dress up, tie each other up, and act out fantasies.

That's normal stuff, the openess. But as you say, "I don't know how to "play" with these fantasies " because you don't know how your partner will react?
For me, asking my wife to play along with my fantasies is a non starter on two counts at least. I just couldn't ask, and how could it be done? ( Answers on a postcard please ! )
If my fantasy involved nurses then it's easy, buy a sexy nursy uniform from a sex shop!
My fantasy has, over time, been misused to a degree that even I don't want it anymore. It just lurks there waiting to catch me out.

Clifford
I'll get that book, I've been looking for something like that for a while now.
I'm also a huge fan of Dr Carnes and have used his web site for a long time now, the sex addiction stuff is very good. I think the online questionaire is very accurate as well.
I know that I have an addictive personality, and my score on the questionaire is way up high. Perhaps, like so many other addictions, abstinence is the solution? Not the perfect one I know, but an asexual relationship that's stable and loving and strives to find other expressions of love and passion might well be better than one that struggles along trying to fix something broken beyond repair?
So many of us are in relationships that are being torn apart by the pressure to have sex as an important part of that relationship, something the media and society has driven into us for decades. Should we place ourselves under that pressure? Maybe not?
Should we try to consign sex to the "nice to have" pile instead of the "I believe it's essential" pile ?

Honeygirl
"I'm a female CSA survivor, as well as the partner of a male CSA survivor, and I coped with PTSD symptoms for a very long time without having any idea what they signaled. One of them was "intrusive thoughts" related to the original abuse incident(s). I am wondering now whether the fantasies associated with particular sorts of sexual activity that are being described here as unpleasant and troubling are not a permutation of the so-called "intrusive thoughts." In some ways, this seems to me like an effort that survivors might make to re-establish a sense of personal control, transforming (or reframing/relabeling) the thoughts that are there without our volition to some extent into ones that we think we can exercise some control over--and perhaps have turn out differently.
Just an idea."


That is exactly how the flashbacks present themselves, as intrusive thoughts. And they are somewhat under my control now, after years of therapy and hard work, but not completely under my control. Sometimes the triggers are more or less guaranteed to set them off, sexual contact being the biggest trigger.
Over the last few years I have got the level of control to a degree where I can make the effect less damaging, but only 'less' - I can't gain total control over them and make them go away, the truth is that these kinds of intrusive thoughts will always be with us, and that the best we can do is "reframe" them in such a way that we can introduce stronger thoughts ( fantasies ) that will overpower them somehow.
Your idea is the right one, replace the bad thought with good thought. It's the battle to do so that's slow and soul destroying.

Stride
"Despite the fact that B' adamantly denies EVER fantasizing or thinking about anything when we're in bed together, I know that that's not true. I really don't get why a man his age would even bother denying it, though I assume he's got major shame and guilt issues related to his fantasy life, whatever it entails."

Ahh, the guilt and shame! It's what brought me and a whole bunch of other guys here.
Most people agree that a fantasy is something inside our heads, and sharing the fantasy does to a degree kill it off. Obviously not completely or I'd be cured and on my favourite 4x4 forum!
Perhaps he can't find another, more acceptable, fantasy to replace the one he's got?

"Obviously, I can't speak for your wife, but I can tell you what inevitably comes up for me when B' and I are in bed together...thoughts and awarenesses I try desperately to block out (or override with fantasies of my own). "

That's very interesting, it works both ways?

"Often enough, things start out with me feeling like he's at least somewhat "present" with me--something that gets me feeling really, really good and is a real turn-on for me. Within minutes, however, I inevitably get the clear sense that B' has "left the building,"

That's exactly what we ( most likely ) did as kids when being abused. We "left the building" !
But what was happeneing to us as we zoned out was that someone was having sex with us. That's a potent mixture of power, physical pleasure, pain, emotions, and all the other stuff associated with abuse, going into an impressionable young boy.
So, what did we learn? Nothing good, that's a fact!

"What gets me worrying about what's (who's) going on in his head when we're having sex and what hurts so much is that I feel like it's never about me/us. That I don't "do it" for him. That while I'm getting turned on by the closeness, scent, taste, sight, etc, of him, and the idea of being WITH HIM--of being US and together in such a personal, private and meaningful way--he's likely doing all he can to be somewhere else, thinking about something/someone else entirely, just to keep himself turned on enough to have sex with me at all. It's an excruciatingly painful, lonely, humiliating, negating and upsetting feeling."

Conversely, I suspect that my wife is thinking something like this. So I try extra hard to look interested. Making love isn't about "looking interested" - I am interested, I just can't seem to show it!

"And yet, I probably would have avoided having sex with him anyway--"

So, we all end up here..........................

"Dave, you suggested that perhaps you (our partners) need to be "upset" more? Care to elaborate?"

Perhaps we end up not having sex with each other because both partners have become too afraid of upsetting the other one. Well, we're grown ups - aren't we?
I, as a survivor, have shed tears and spent a lot of time getting my act together. With some success as well, I'm both happy and proud of where I am today. But it could be better.
I got here by therapy, love and support, understanding and compassion, and all that stuff from the people I love. I appreciate that completely.
How the fuck do I move on from here? I still have all stuff in place, it's there and working and it's ok with me. But am I becoming complacent and comfortable?

Is it too easy for me to suck it all up and make the best of it? My wife does things to ease my life, she knows my triggers and theb things that upset me so she avoids them. Why?
Because she loves me and wants me to be better is why. I can't complain about that can I ?
But life deals some low blows all the time, people do get upset and have bad experiences - they generally deal with them because they learned to deal with crap in the normal way through childhood - we didn't.
But a lot of us are catching up fast. Therapy and the support of loved ones teaches us these skills, we learn to face the hurt in the therapists chair, we cry on our partners shoulders.
So why shouldn't I cry in the bedroom where I know I have 100% love and support to ease me through the trauma of sex and towards making love?
Would I suffer serious trauma that couldn't be fixed if my wife pushed me a bit? I seriously don't think so. I might get pissed off if she kept on pushing, but a 'controlled' push would be welcome.

Obviously that's something a partner would have to think through VERY carefully, and be prepared for some hard time as well.
But is the degree of likely upset so huge? As a husband I get my arse kicked by my wife on a regular basis, I spend too much time in my workshop, there's oil on the towel, I peed on the toilet seat. So what? I get grief - I get over it. I learned that somewhere, so why not use it? Perhaps Selene has the answer?

"... what do you think would happen if you just asked and told him the things you've said above? ... including wondering if he masturbated once you'd gotten out of bed ...

... being honest especially about sex is no easy task ... especially for a csa survivor ... but it CAN happen ... and it seems to me it's even more necessary than usual in order to develop a decent sex life ... "
( Selene)

"Soooo, in addition to everything else, I'm now afraid that rather than trying to slog through all of this stuff with me, he'd just say he can't help the way he is/feels, it's not working for either of us, so it'd be best that we just not see each other as anything more than friends anymore. "

Is this the perceived danger or the reality? I can't tell, not even after 32 years together. I don't even know if my wife feels this way at all, maybe sometimes she does? In the dark times.
I know how I feel, and it's not like that. I would do everything possible to keep the marriage alive. I have said "I can't help the way I feel" so many times, maybe too many times? Perhaps I've come to believe it?

Perhaps I should add "How can I fix it?"

Wheee, that was a long one!
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
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#150742 - 04/14/07 12:21 AM Re: Lloydy *DELETED* [Re: Lloydy]
selene Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 221
Loc: midwest
Post deleted by selene

_________________________
"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye." ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupery from The Little Prince

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#150743 - 04/14/07 12:23 AM Re: Lloydy [Re: selene]
selene Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 221
Loc: midwest
.



Edited by selene (10/04/07 04:12 AM)
_________________________
"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the eye." ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupery from The Little Prince

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#150766 - 04/14/07 05:35 AM Re: Lloydy [Re: selene]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Selene,

True enough. And believe me, I've tried--many, many times--but he's generally not been open to that. He will want for us to cuddle quietly and go to sleep, or he will want to get up and eat, or to get up and shower (by himself), or he'll get up suddenly needing to get on with his day doing other things (run errands, go home to practice, make phone calls, do laundry, whatever), giving me a quick kiss goodbye once he's dressed and be gone, with an "I'll call you later" to me on his way out.

At best, any attempts by me to "invite him back in"--subtly or not so subtly--are met with a gentle "hushing" and deflection of any efforts on my part to resume things. Often he seems quite okay at these times with cuddling or having me scratch his back, or sometimes just being silly and playful, but these are almost never segues back into sex. It's as if once the moment's gone for him, it's gone for quite a while (hours at best, but more likely days or weeks). And the last thing I want to do is to be perceived or experienced in any way by him as trying to persuade (which likely equates at some level with "coerce" in his mind/body) or "maneuver" him into doing something sexual that he doesn't already feel like doing. I am NOT his perp but attempts to rekindle the mood when he doesn't show any real sign of wanting to be seduced can leave me feeling like one. Now there's a HORRIBLE feeling.

The sad truth is, we are not talking about someone who is, when it comes down to it, comfortable with his own sexuality, nevermind mine. Consequently, many things that I would feel perfectly safe and free to do with someone else (read, someone without all of his CSA-born issues) have simply proven themselves, repeatedly, to be really bad ideas with him. For now, I'd be thrilled if I could even just get him feeling really turned on by and wanting me (sexually) again for more than a rare and fleeting moment (read, a minute or two) here n' there.

Stride



Edited by stride (04/14/07 05:51 AM)
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

Top
#150771 - 04/14/07 06:51 AM Re: Lloydy [Re: selene]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Quote:
...i think maybe the way to fight "fantasies" you no longer wish to have is with something different ... like reality ... that's about all i can think of that is more powerful that fantasy ... maybe you can find that reality in the curve of your wife's neck or the way she looks at you that makes you certain that she loves you or kissing her, crying and shaking if you have to, until you *know* it's not the same as your abuse ...

.. i think reality, feeling more rather then feeling less, may be a way to connect with your wife again, dave ... it's done wonders for us ...



Selene,

I couldn't agree with you more. Perhaps Dave, you are ready for this with your wife?

I have suggested exactly these kinds of things to B'...tried to convey to him that other realities and experiences beyond the ones he perceives or is familiar with are very possible--and not just *possible* but pleasurable, freeing, rewarding, affirming...all that good stuff. Still, he insists that *I* should "get real," that sex is a physical act having little to nothing to do with emotional feelings and connection. In his mind "good" sex is dependent (for him) upon "buff," young looking and attractive bodies, rock hard erections, tight pussies, and nonverbal interactions where the goal is penetrate and then ensure that his lover achieves orgasm (and preferably more than one) before he does, and all without taking too long. To hear him tell it, sex is about f*king and physical release, plain and simple. The term "making love" is just some icky, flaky notion made up by people like me who want to try to make sex out to be something more than it is and perhaps even ruin it all by wanting to dress it up that way.

B' does not seem to get how the curve of my neck, hip or back, the sides of my breasts, or the silkiness of my hair in his fingers can be a turn-on. He does not understand how I can get so turned on just stroking his belly--especially if he's gained a couple of pounds or lost any muscle tone there--how I can get so turned on just by looking at him even when he's covered in sawdust, sweat or what-have-you...Likewise, he doesn't understand, for example, how I could possibly hope that he'd find me very exciting if I've gained a few pounds or am not very toned at the time. For him, physical attraction is dependent upon what kind of shape one's in and how one looks. I'm a slim, good-looking woman who looks younger than I am, but I don't have the body of a pin-up and as far as I'm concerned, that's not "it." He's in excellent shape, but he's also grey-haired and thinning, and I love to kiss that balding spot at the back of his head. He doesn't get that at all. So, to try to suggest the kinda stuff you're talking about here Selene is definitely a "no-go" with him thus far.

The point is that for him emotions, *feelings* and experiencing each other in sensory ways beyond things like direct genital stimulation seem to play only a very minor role at best when it comes to what makes sex exciting, desirable or good....At worst, they can seem a definite turn-off for him. He can tell me that he loves me outside of the bedroom, but never in bed. He can tell me that I look good or even "hot," but never in bed. He can look at me with appreciation when I'm dressed up in something he likes, but not in the bedroom.

B' thinks that I'm "crazy" to be able to be so turned by and into him just because he's who he is, young or old, buff or not, 6-pack abs or round belly, tanned or white-skinned, broke or doing well. Likewise, he believes it entirely unrealistic of me to expect that he could be turned on by me just because I'm me.

I have no argument with what you suggest at all, Selene. The challenge in my case is to find a way to open him up to the possibilities and joys of which you speak. But for so long as his mind remains closed to other possibilities, they're just not going to work for him...

Dave, it does seem to me that you may be ready for the things Selene suggests, though only you can say for sure. If so, I think you'll find that a whole new, incredibly beautiful and magical world awaits both you and your wife.

Stride
P.S. Selene--I am SO happy for you! May this new path you and your husband are on continue. It's certainly inspiring to hear about how far you've journeyed together and where you are with each other now.




Edited by stride (04/14/07 07:50 AM)
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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