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#150371 - 04/11/07 06:43 PM Lloydy
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Lloydy,

First let me say that I appreciate your openess. This stuff is so confusing.

So I have a question that I would completely understand if you feel uncomfortable addressing. Really. And I'm a tad embarrased to ask but but could you elaborate on what it's like to fantasize about penises/men while having sex with your wife --what it's like for you emotionally?

Again, if this is too personal I understand.

Thanks,
Katie


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#150383 - 04/11/07 07:21 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: Kathryn]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
No problem Katie.
30 years ago it was a fantasy, I'm 53 now and it's an intrusion.

It is somewhat confusing to me because I giving bj's is something that I have done to more males than I have had female sexual partners. I had a lot of abusers over 4 years at boarding school and this became my particular talent I guess.

So, having had that much experience of giving bj's, why is it a fantasy?
I know I'm not gay because I don't feel any emotional ties to men like I do to women, I don't find men attractive or want any kind of relationship with another man.
I'm perfectly straight in my sexual orientation, although I did struggle with that until I went through therapy.

My only interest in other men ( other than normal friendships ) is in the act of giving a bj, not really bothered about receiving a bj back or anal sex, which I also experienced a lot of as a boy.

For me this is all to do with regaining power over my abusers by doing this very powerful sex act on my terms, not theirs.
Even though my abusers groomed and beat me into a position where I would ask them for sex, and suggest and ask for particular sex acts, I now realise that I was completely under their control. Nothing was done without them wanting it, they led me on by using loaded questions and leaving me with no alternatives, but it looked as though I was the instigator and the sex mad boy.

The fantasy, as it ended up when I went acting out with other men, became very specific.
I didn't include the actual man in the fantasy, he could have been any colour, age or whatever.
The circumstances of how I came to be giving a bj were also vague to the point of being non existant, it didn't matter. All I fixated on was the bj, and the fact that I was the instigator.

In therapy I came to realise that I was trying to recreate my abuse on my terms, I wanted the power.
And looking back at the acting out it became obvious as well. If another man suggested anything, offered to do something, asked me to do something - even if all he said was "suck me off", which was what I (thought) I wanted, then I'd lost the fantasy and I wanted out instantly. I have ended up fighting with men to get away.
Their suggestions, requests or offers became demands in my mind - and that was my reason for being there. I wanted to be in control, I wanted the power.

So, my fantasy is more about power and control than sex, and the truth is I can't excercise power and control over someone I love through sex, or any other methods for that matter.

When I was younger and I started to use this fantasy I didn't understand it one bit, I just thought it was a bit kinky and odd that I had a fantasy about something I did as a boy - but hey, it worked.
Now I understand it, it won't go away. Andn it sure as hell doesn't work when I'm having sex with my wife.
If I look at gay porn, bj's, it's still not really effective as an aid to masturbation.

But like I said before, the knowledge that fantasies have led me to lose control in the past scares me.
Perhaps that's why the old familiar one still has some marginal appeal?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#150400 - 04/11/07 08:14 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: Lloydy]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Llody,

Not to probe -- and feel free to tell me to back off, I can be rather blunt -- but I understand the whys of the fantasy.

What I really am interested in, for obvious personal reasons, is the effect it has while having sex with your wife. I mean does it get easier to accept the fantasy as fantasy, or does it still cause you to withdraw or feel guilty, etc.... I assume it would feel very awkward if I were to have fantasies of a woman while trying to make love to my husband.

The reason I ask is because in considering my relationship with Rob I really don't know how to deal with his fantasies, mostly because he actually acted on them for a really long time. It would be different if the fantasies hadn't lead to action, it would feel less threatening. But as it is, it feels quite threatening to me. Which probably doesn't help matters in that I'm sure my fealings would only compound Rob's guilt and embarresment over the matter.
But my fealings are what they are.

Take care and thanks so much for responding,
Katie


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#150414 - 04/11/07 09:05 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: Lloydy]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Dave,

It is such a blessing and HUGE source of relief to be able to talk about this stuff with others. Sex and intimacy is such a huge issue for so many of us, yet it's rare to find a safe place where people--especially men, I daresay--are willing to open up in such frank and soulful ways. Sex and intimacy are such deeply individual and personal realms, yet now that I'm in a relationship where these incredibly important things are so troubled, I find that being able to (collectively) examine, share and reflect on them with such candour is both amazingly comforting and instructive. Thank you, as always, for your willingness to be so candid with us.

"In therapy I came to realise that I was trying to recreate my abuse on my terms, I wanted the power.
And looking back at the acting out it became obvious as well. If another man suggested anything, offered to do something, asked me to do something - even if all he said was "suck me off", which was what I (thought) I wanted, then I'd lost the fantasy and I wanted out instantly. I have ended up fighting with men to get away.
Their suggestions, requests or offers became demands in my mind - and that was my reason for being there. I wanted to be in control, I wanted the power.

So, my fantasy is more about power and control than sex, and the truth is I can't excercise power and control over someone I love through sex, or any other methods for that matter."

Interesting. Leaves me wondering if much of B's repulsion/objections to any "suggestions, requests or offers" from me arises from the very same thing. He has always insisted that my suggesting, requesting or offering to do anything related to our sex life (no matter how minor or innocuous a thing it may seem to me) really turns him off and leaves him feeling like I'm trying to "make" him do something, rather than just leaving things up to him. He also says that it makes him NOT want to do anything I've suggested or requested because "it would just make it feel 'contrived' if I did, and not natural..." that I should just let him do what he does, figure it out on his own, and leave it alone if he doesn't.

Hmmm...if sex is really all about power and control for him--which would make sense, given his childhood history--then it makes all-the-more sense to me why having sex with me, someone he deeply loves and whom he knows truly loves him, just doesn't work for him. Ditto for his total aversion to the phrase or concept of "making love."

I'm not sure where all of this leaves me, but I'm going to reread your post several more times and ponder on it a while...

Stride







Edited by stride (04/11/07 09:07 PM)
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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#150523 - 04/12/07 05:02 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kathryn
Yeah, I wandered off on a bit of a tangent there, sorry.

How do I feel?
I suppose it's a circular pattern of thinking, and a part of it is always with me. I dread the fantasy corrupting our making love, so the easy option is to avoid making love, which I do a lot.
That's the start of of a simple 'circular behaviour' one thought provokes another.

So here I am thinking of excuses before we even get to the action, and that's something I hate doing so I feel guilty.

With some effort and the correct alignment of the planets I sometimes get past that and try to make love with my wife.
And this is when the problems begin.

I worry about getting an erection, the worry distracts me so I don't get an erection. So I try to relax, which is an impossibility - relaxation is a natural thing that can't be forced at will.
Then I decide to risk a bit of fantasy, think of some straight porn I have seen or an erotic scene from a film. Even the woman at work who wanted my body a while back. I didn't want hers though, so it's a non starter as a fantasy.

By this time I'm 'working from a list' and caressing by numbers.
The possibility of failure is now very real, so I go to the old standby fantasy that worked so well for so long. The bj fantasy.

By now I don't give a flying f**k what I fantasise about as long as it works.
But this bj fantasy begins to do my head in, it's so at odds with what I want to do, what I'm actually trying to do.
I also know that my wife knows about my fantasies, and the fact I acted them out as well, so is she wondering what fantasy is running through my head? Probably, and the thought of her thinking that is crushing for me.

Eventually my mind becomes flooded with contradictive thoughts and ideas, guilt comes along and kills the moment and I roll over finished, and silent.

I've been through 3 years of 1 to 1 cognitive behavioural therapy and a few years of group work. I've also partly trained as a counsellor since then, so I have some understanding of what's going on. I certainly understand that I need further therapy, and I will probably try some Transactional Analysis this time as I think the model address' the links between behaviours and actions in a more defined manner.

But to get back to the plot, the circular behaviour can have as many items on it's periphery as it needs, indeed everything should be there. Actually sit down with a paper and pencil, draw a big circle and add things ( in order going one way around ) that have a cause and effect on each other. Mine's a bloody huge circle!
Then see how each thing leads to the next, and on and on until you arrive back at the start, as it inevitably does.
Somewhere there's a weak point, one item that can be worked on and changed, and the circle is broken, or at least made smaller.

I'll admit that I'm no walking advert for this theory, but it is effective I promise. And that's because the negative emotions and feelings can sit on the circle alongside the good ones, we can see them all on one page.
I seem to nibble away at my circle and make it smaller, complete success at breaking the circle still hasn't happened. But it will.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#150525 - 04/12/07 05:21 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Stride
Quote:
Interesting. Leaves me wondering if much of B's repulsion/objections to any "suggestions, requests or offers" from me arises from the very same thing. He has always insisted that my suggesting, requesting or offering to do anything related to our sex life (no matter how minor or innocuous a thing it may seem to me) really turns him off and leaves him feeling like I'm trying to "make" him do something, rather than just leaving things up to him. He also says that it makes him NOT want to do anything I've suggested or requested because "it would just make it feel 'contrived' if I did, and not natural..." that I should just let him do what he does, figure it out on his own, and leave it alone if he doesn't.


Right on the button, that's exactly how I feel - or at least part of it.

And all that makes you feel bad, you end up being cautious to the point of not doing anything that 'might' upset us.
Perhaps we need upsetting a bit more? Seriously, I'm beginning to think that guys like us have so many hang ups that if we get over some a bunch of new ones will come right along! In truth that has happened to me to a certain extent.

I have sometimes wondered how I would react to having sex with the kind of woman who gets hammered in a bar on a Saturday night and considers a good fuck as essential to finish the night off properly! Someone who fucks for the hell of it rather than for love and passion.
It's not my style, I'm 100% faithful so I wouldn't do it. But is there something basic about the kind of fuck that doesn't need all the emotional baggage that is, or could be, very liberating in a way I just can't begin to comprehend?

My acting out didn't give me any of that, maybe there was too much emotion and history involved for me that I didn't understand at the time. Perhaps the men I met were just after basic sex? I don't know.

Making love is complicated, it's a two way thing that requires a level of understanding and love for the partner which in itself is huge, finding that when I can't find my own understanding ( and love ? ) seems to be impossible.

Is it any wonder that my idea of 'making love' is much closer to the base fucking that I described above.
I can see now that I'm actually retreating from the emotions involved, not between me and my wife, but between me and the sex I desire.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#150550 - 04/12/07 07:36 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: Lloydy]
stride Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 202
Loc: B.C. Canada
Dave,

For the first time EVER I think someone has finally turned the big light on for me: Everything in me (that "inner voice/wisdom") recognizes the "circular behaviour" pattern which you describe so clearly as being exactly what happens for B' if sex is "on the menu" for us at any given time. I don't know if he fantasizes about giving bjs or not, but I'd bet my life's wages that the thought/emotional/physical processes you describe would ring loud and true for him as well--and bang on.

In reading your "circular behaviour" post, all the cards fell into place for me, and I just KNOW they fit perfectly with what's actually going on with him.

A few years back B' started taking Cialis to deal with his ED and now says he accepts this as simply what he has to do (for the rest of his life) to get an erection, though he attributes his problems with ED to his age and nothing else. Still, his Cialis-assisted ability to get erections now hasn't changed things much beyond the initial stages of our sexual encounters. Even Cialis, Viagra or whatever won't work if your head's not into sex at the time or you lose that headspace at some point. And almost invariably he does. If anything, I'd say this has become more of a problem than before, no doubt because of anxieties/expectations that our encounters will still wind up feeling awkward and unfulfilling for both of us anyway, erection or not. In other words, while before he may have attributed a lot of our sexual difficulties to his not being able to maintain his erections, turns out erections are not the panacea he'd hoped they'd be...he couldn't just take a pill and everything would be "happy ever after." This has no doubt only brought the problems of our sex life into sharper relief for him, thus making things that much more uncomfortable, if I don't miss my guess.

And naturally, given years of our deeply troubled sex life I have come to harbour and bring to our bed similar anxieties and expectations, which only exacerbates the situation.

Funny, B' spent the night last night and at one point suddenly suggested that he run home (which is pretty much just across the street) and get/take a Cialis. I froze. For one thing, given that there's been no talk of sex nor any indication of interest in it from him--especially since our recent agreement about this--the suggestion totally surprised me.

But more than that, I quickly became of aware of just how panicked I was at the idea, and so sure, no doubt quite rightly, that if we did give it a go it would end up being yet another disappointment for us both. I'm terrified that that would only reaffirm for him his belief that we're just not compatible as lovers and we'd end up right back where we were a few weeks ago. Things have been feeling really good with us lately and I want to keep building on that for now, but in the moment I couldn't bring myself to say that. I just froze (VERY unlike me!). Fortunately, he started talking about something else almost immediately. He did run home "to get his laptop and contact lens stuff," but as far as I'm aware he didn't take any Cialis while he was there. Perhaps I'll discover otherwise when he wakes up from his nap, but for now I feel "safe."

Isn't it strange (and sad!) how so much has changed all-of-a-sudden? Me, who has always longed for and jumped at any opportunity to be sexual with him, is suddenly afraid of the prospect and feeling relieved that he hasn't pursued his thought of our having sex last night/today!

God, I wish so much that he would read these posts of yours, Dave (and others'). I really think it would help him understand himself and what's going on for him much better, which in turn might enable us to work on something other than strawmen, you know?

For now, my sending him or telling him about these posts would only piss him off or something, and he'd no doubt find some reason to "have to" go home all-of-a-sudden (read, escape from me/this). But at least you've given me something that truly fits, rings true, and makes sense...crystal clear, in fact. And that's a whole lot more concrete insight than I've ever had into this before. I'm not sure yet what, if anything, I can do with it, but somehow the burden seems easier to bear with this new understanding.

For the 1000th, but not the last time, THANK YOU!

Stride





Edited by stride (04/12/07 07:44 PM)
_________________________
In the right formation,
the lifting power of many wings can
achieve twice the distance of any bird flying alone.

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#150556 - 04/12/07 08:13 PM Re: Lloydy [Re: stride]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303

Dave,

Firt, ditto everything Stride just said only more eloquently than I could. Really -- thanks.

I don't know if this helps any or not but my feelings about Rob having fantasies of men while having sex with me is pretty darn tough. But for lots of other women I've talked with it's not much of a problem for them. Why it bothers me to the extent it does and not other women probably involves a million different factors, but the ones I've been able to discern are:
1) different family background. Because Rob's acted on these fantasies while in relationships with women it triggers the profound feelings I have about having my physical boundaries violated due to my own physical abuse history. 2) And relatedy, because, like you, Rob's fantasies arose out of his sexual abuse, I don't know how to "play" with these fantasies in the way I might be able to if he were just an average bisexual man with bisexual fantasies. 3) He's been a bit over the top in describing his experiences with not very well-chosen words. What he's provided in honesty has been a bit lacking in diplomacy :). 4) Some women seem to carry their gender differently than I and either are more in touch with or have stronger cross-gendered identifications -- and we all have some.

Anyway, even if your wife does wonder when or if you're having the bj fantasies she may not mind at all. And I know for a fact, due to personal experience, that passing homoerotic fantasies in and of themselves do not disturb me. It's all the rest that does. But your wife seems to have different feelings and personal associations than I do. I imagine she feels relatively comfortable with the situation or she wouldn't be where she is.
Your sentence about feeling crushed really got to me. I'm so sorry about this. I really am. And I imagine that this is one of the most profound ways in which those who abused you have harmed you.

I know that this is one of the really big areas I have to work on if I'm to make things work with Rob. And the thing is Dave, that if I decide I can -- that means really dealing with and accepting it.
Ans so again, I assume your wife has done so to a far greater degree than your fears express.

This situation just really sucks.

Thankyou so much for your oppeness. You've given me much to think about.

Take care,
Katie


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#150612 - 04/13/07 02:38 AM Re: Lloydy [Re: Kathryn]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi guys hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in here.
For Dave and Stride, this sex problem sounds to me to be a, I must preform/be successful/ not FAIL, anxiety type of problem. So far I haven't had it yet, maybe as I haven't had sex with the wife since 1990, and last had sex with a guy in 1994. But that's another story.
Anyway, let me throw a book at you, Male Sexuality by Bernie Zilbergeld, PH.D., it is a old book so look in the used book stores for it. He talks about some techniques that may help. The techniques are designed to take the pressure off, as you don't get to have real sex at first, just foreplay. Then later you take it to the next step.
I admit that I have not read the whole book, only the chapter about touching, but I did skim the rest of the book, a lot of good info in it.

For Dave and Katie This part about the fantasies/acting out, sounds a lot like sexual addiction/drug addiction/other addiction/alcoholism, I have been reading on the subjects of late. They all talk about a shame cycle. That sounds like what you are trying to explain Dave. From the book "Don't call it love by Patrick Carnes,Ph.D, page 105 Figure 3-1 the shame cycle.
The top of the figure is ACTING OUT with a arrow to the right to OUT OF CONTROL, under that you have Compulsive: Eating, Sex, Alcohol/Drugs, Spending, Risk Taking,and Working. At the bottom you have a arrow to the left to, Control. Under control you have Compulsive: Dieting, Sex Avoidance, Alcohol Avoidance, Saving, Risk Avoidance, Religion. As you can see it forms a circle, Acting out to out of control to Acting in to Control, and back to acting out.

In another part of the book he gives the characteristics of addicts and co-addicts, they are amazingly similar.
Dave as some one who is training as a counselor, you will likely be interested in most of the books Patrick Carnes has put out. you can find them http://www.gentlepath.com/showproduct.cfm?product_type=book
I have been having some very good luck finding them in my town, I guess God wants me to read them.
PS: "In the Shadows of the net", talks much more about fantasies and porn, acting out.
Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#150655 - 04/13/07 11:08 AM Re: Lloydy [Re: lostcowboy]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Hi, everybody.
I haven't logged in for quite some time, but I have been reading very regularly, and feeling very appreciative for the information-sharing that continues on such a high level. Today I am emerging from a very pressured stretch at work, and I also have a suggestion to offer to this particular thread.
I'm a female CSA survivor, as well as the partner of a male CSA survivor, and I coped with PTSD symptoms for a very long time without having any idea what they signaled. One of them was "intrusive thoughts" related to the original abuse incident(s). I am wondering now whether the fantasies associated with particular sorts of sexual activity that are being described here as unpleasant and troubling are not a permutation of the so-called "intrusive thoughts." In some ways, this seems to me like an effort that survivors might make to re-establish a sense of personal control, transforming (or reframing/relabeling) the thoughts that are there without our volition to some extent into ones that we think we can exercise some control over--and perhaps have turn out differently.
Just an idea.
In any case, I do find these recent threads on the impact of CSA on loving sexual activity with partners to be very illuminating, since this is an area that my BF and I continue to have huge, huge difficulty dealing with. I can relate to you, Stride, in yearning...and then reconsidering, because things have so often turned out so painfully. I will see if I can track down the book you recommend, lostcowboy; it sounds helpful. And Lloydy--that's a remarkable level of detail and disclosure you offer, which I suspect might be pretty applicable to my BF too. I appreciate your inspiring message overall. I am going to suggest again to my BF that he read some of these threads, because I think that having this information in common might help us continue to talk through all of this with each other. But for him, too, there are other, more pressing priorities (as odd as that may seem!:)
Thank you, as always, to everyone who posts with such a high level of conscientiousness. I feel a great sense of mutual support and solidarity.
HG

_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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