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#14910 - 09/30/02 01:19 PM NOMSV
factsperson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 17
Ken Singer,

First I would like to thank you for speaking up and showing integrity in discussing these matters. You have been forthright and open about yourself and you have volunteered this information.

You ask me what my "beef" is? I do not exactly have a "beef", I feel that the things I have been expressing are topics that should have been expressed and discussed by all people associated with NOMSV all along.

I feel that the topic of whether or not NOMSV represents (if that is the appropriate word) perpretrators or not is a MAJOR issue for NOMSV that should have been brought out in the open all along.

I simply rather accidently discovered that several of the therapists with postings on this website treat offenders, not just yourself. Again, I believe that you're coming out is rather to be admired for you are the only one so far who has done that. That gives me the strong impression that you are honest about what you say about yourself.

The issue is, once again, I feel that NOMSV therapists should not be treating perpetrators and victimes at the same time. As an example that I am not alone in this, Dr. Susan Forward in her book Betrayal of Innocence indicated that her patients asked her not to treat abusers which she honored and she has never been sorry that she chose that path. So here we have a very well known abuse therapist known world wide who does not do this. That, by itself, makes my statement reasonable.

My "beef:: A lot of the responses by honored members of this website indicated a belief that many of the abusers were abused themselves. I have never seen any firm statistics on this however based on what I have read this is not true. If the present President of NOMSV woould like to comment on that, that would be appreciated.

So, from the mail so far, several people might apparently change their minds if they knew that this was not true.

Secondly, how does a therapist who treat abusers get the abuser to stop abusing other people which a lot of NOMSV posters indicted was important in allowing therapists to treat abusers. Certainly the way it is done is the same way that therapists treat victims, with empathy, concern, warmth, support etc. I feel that all NOMSV members should be aware of that and let them make a decision how they feel about abusers being treated the same way that they (victims) are being treated in therapy.

My points are :

1. I would have never thought that there were therapists in NOMSV (other than Mr. Singer) who even treated abusers.

2. I never knew that NOMSV had a policy that abusers were allowed to use the NOMSV web site as long as they would not talk about the abuse until someone in a posting said that.

3. It is my belief that many of the MOMSV members or people who just post at this site are aware of these facts.

THe purpose of this posting is not to "divide" members, the purpose of this posting is to bring out into the open these topics so that all NOMSV members can realize them and to allow NOMSV to explain their policies so that people can decide for themselves how they feel about that and to let NOMSV know how their constituents feel about this.

It should be brought out into the open.

Of course you could always just tell people that this is the way it is but at least they would know that and can decide that how they feel.

When you attend a NOMSV Conference which are always excellent and very helpful to victims NEVER would anyone get the impression that abusers are being treated by NOMSV therapists and personnel.


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#14911 - 10/01/02 11:20 AM Re: NOMSV
contender Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/17/01
Posts: 58
Loc: New York
I feel that factperson has raised some topics for discussion even though her/his presentation may not be that good at times.

I don't agree with freevoice that factperson is indicating that therapists are condoning what the offender did however it would be informative to understand what the treatment of an offender is.

I am sure that NOMSV will be able to handle themselves well on these points but I believe that they are topics and questions reasonable enough to answer.


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#14912 - 10/02/02 05:16 PM Re: NOMSV
factsperson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 17
FreeVoice,

I first read all the other postings to mine and all of them were supportive in their disagreeing with me and concurred in part with what I had to say.

However yours does not have the same tone. You totally disagree with me always and even go so far as to criticize me in my expressing myself on this matter.

I have noticed that your postings are slanted, that is, you find no value in what I am saying and you want me to "go away".

Why don't you be a man and come out and tell everyone that you are a perpetrator?

I have not heard from the ex-President and the present President on my concerns and questions. I assume it will be forthcoming.

Thank you.


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#14913 - 10/03/02 02:31 AM Re: NOMSV
Roy Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 184
Loc: Los Angeles
Factsperson,

Your accusation that "freevoice" is a perpetrator implies that you think anyone who is in disagreement with you is a perpetrator. That is so small minded as to not even warrant a response.

Frankly, it is none of your business what the issues are of the other clients your therapist or any of the therapists at NOMSV happen to see. Personally, I wouldn't care if my therapist treated Charles Manson as long as he/she was skilled, compassionate, and attentive to my needs.

I replied to an earlier post of yours and there is no way anyone could misread my response as being supportive of your actions here. Nor did I then or do I now concur in any way, shape, or form with what you have to say. Let me be the first to go on record as saying I find no value in what you are saying and that I want you to go away.


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#14914 - 10/04/02 04:33 PM Re: NOMSV
factsperson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 17
Mr. Ken Singer,

You asked me what my beef was and I told you. So far I have not heard from you or the President of NOMSV presently to some well thought out questions.

Is it that you had no plans to answer or letting a couple of people who don't agree with me and attack me for raising these issues do your answering for you?

Oh, if it is true that perptrators are alloed into the discusion group as long as they don't talk about the abuse, this is also not a good idea as they are sadistic and will gt into the pain and anguish of victims (you should know that Mr. Singer).


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#14915 - 10/05/02 12:08 AM Re: NOMSV
Richard Gartner, PhD Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/20/00
Posts: 402
Loc: New York, NY, USA
A Discussion Forum is set up so that people may read and answer posts in their own time. I did not see this particular thread till today, and that is why I am only answering it now. By and large, I and others on the NOMSV Board have always tried to give this Forum over to members for Discussion, only coming in ourselves when we felt there was a need. This is why most of the responses about this issue have come from survivor/members.

First, as to factsperson's question about statistics related to perpetrators having been abused themselves:

I believe one of the best research studies of the prevalence and incidence of sexual abuse of boys is one done by David Lisak and his colleagues at the University of Massachusetts-Boston. There is a published study from 1996 listed in the professional bibliography on this web site (Lisak, Hopper, and Song), but Dr. Lisak has continued to collect data. The published study had 600 subjects but he now has data on over 3000 subjects which tend to confirm the earlier numbers. He presented some of the data at NOMSVís New York conference in 2001.

I will summarize some of his most important findings. I have tried to simplify the findings in the interest of clarity. If you want more details, please go to his study, or to my de>
_________________________
www.richardgartner.com

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#14916 - 10/07/02 05:43 AM Re: NOMSV
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
I want to ask a question. If a perpatrator wishes to change, he probably will not be able to do it alone. If you do not think people can change, then i do not know why you are here. How can they find help if everyone turns them away?

I can certainly understand the frustration, watching child molesters constantly slapped on the wrist, getting away with "mandatory" therapy, seeing them victomize other survivors who are vulnrable through support groups and other means, but what do you want to do? Do you want to explain to an abused child that thier father is a pedophile, and that all those bad things he did to them means he has to die? Try explaining that pedophiles are nothing but animals to thier wives and children. It is a choice, yes, but it is also a sickness. If we deny the choice and treat the sickness, there is no justice. If we accept the choice but deny the sickness, there is no mercy. You do not get the luxory of accepting either compassion or justice as the one virtue you choose over the other. If you want it to be clearly posted that offenders are permitted on the boards, that is fine. But to be honest there is very little NOSMV could do to keep out offenders if they tried. There are a few people i suspect here are offenders who are only here to take advantage, but there are others i think are trying to change. But there is no way for me to prove who i suspect are currently active or stop them from coming here, or tell the difference between the two. 99% of the time, your probably right, they probably are out to get you. But that doesnt change the fact that you are denying victoms of sexual abuse a chance to be heard, or that you are turning away what may be the only shot to keep an offender from contining to abuse others. Offenders are often family, who could not break the cycle themselves. Some offenders may have been extremely young and confused when they started, it is not excusable, but it is hardly reasonable to throw a five year child in jail because he has molested one of his younger siblings. Reality is not black and white.


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#14917 - 10/07/02 10:47 PM Re: NOMSV
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Factsperson:
I just came back last night from the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers annual conference in Montreal, so I apologize for not responding to your posting until today.

You make a number of assumptions regarding the treatment of abusers and the role of NOMSV in it. First of all, NOMSV/MaleSurvivor is primarily dedicated to the healing of male survivors of sexual abuse. When I (or any other member) talk about working with abusers, it is about preventing more victims. I assume you are supportive of this goal.

When you say, "I feel that the topic of whether or not NOMSV represents (if that is the appropriate word) perpretrators or not is a MAJOR issue for NOMSV that should have been brought out in the open all along", I have difficulty understanding what you mean by this. We do not give perpetrators a forum here, either directly or indirectly. This discussion area is for survivors, therapists who work with them, and those who love/support them. If someone who identifies as a survivor happens to have a history of abusing others, it is his choice whether to reveal that or not. We have no way to identify or exclude them on this ground. We will ban some individuals who are abusive to others in their writings upon our moderators' discretion.

I have respect for Dr. Susan Forward's work as an early pioneer of sexual abuse/incest more than 20 years ago. However, if it was true that she decided to not see abusers out of her patients' preference, that is her decision. My clients know I see both abusers and survivors and I have never had anyone ask this of me. Each person who I see gets the respect and time they pay for, regardless of their "status" as an "abuser" or "survivor": each person is a person to me, regardless of what label someone might put on them. I will do my best to help them.

The issue you raise about the numbers of abusers who were themselves abused has been documented in the research time and again. Why some victims become victimizers and most don't is important, but should not play a role in what is going on here. While I believe that it is important to treat the victimization issues for abusers, your healing should be independent of theirs. Everyone in the abuser treatment field agrees that this is important to treatment for abusers. To not address their victimization issues raises the possibility of more offenses/more victims.

If you want statistics on this, I will get them for you, but I suspect this is a diversion from your agenda.

Your last comment needs to be addressed. You wrote:
"When you attend a NOMSV Conference which are always excellent and very helpful to victims NEVER would anyone get the impression that abusers are being treated by NOMSV therapists and personnel."

I wonder... have YOU attended a NOMSV conference (when and where)? What difference does it mean about the therapists (presenters?) who treat abusers and survivors? Again, I am in the small minority (perhaps the only one) who does work with both populations. I'll be interested if you attended any of my workshops in the past whether you saw a difference in my presentation because of who I work with.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ken Singer, LCSW
NOMSV past president
Current board member NOMSV
NJ ATSA Executive Director
Board Member, Child Assault Prevention-NJ


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#14918 - 10/07/02 10:55 PM Re: NOMSV
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
And PS:
Is this the right discussion place for this topic? Perhaps it should be moved to the Board discussion or someplace else?
Ken


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#14919 - 10/10/02 07:14 PM Re: NOMSV
factsperson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 17
Mr. Singer,

Thank you for your response.

Yes, I would be interested in the statistics that you mentioned, I don't understand why you would think this would be a diversion from my agenda, I do not have any agenda, I am just voicing my opinion.

I don't understand why whether or not I attended a NOMSV convention matters since I highly praised the convention. (I did not say that NOMSV represented abusers at the convention.) Also I don't understand why you state whether or not is is true that Susan Forward no longer treats abusers as I mentioned the book where she states this in the beginning. I admit that the vast majority of the people are probably not going to check it themselves but it is there.

The reason why I talked about what I did in my postings is because one of the responses to them indicated that NOMSV had a policy that abusers were allowed to use the NOMSV web site as long as they would not talk about the abuse until someone in a posting said that. Is that true? (Am I allowed to ask?)

Certainly perpetrators who are abused themselves should be able to use the NOMSV website if they are trying to change. However, as Dr. Gartner indicated, the vast majority of offenders were not abused themselves. I guess this is the group that concerns me using the website. However there is no control over this. I am sorry if you feel I do not have the right to offer my opinion on this.

I have received e-mail from the Board saying I am being disruptive in my postings. I wrote back to them and asked them what it was that I said that was disruptive so I can modify my postings in the future. I have not received a response to date.

I get the impression that if someone disagrees with the Boards policy, for example, on the topic of abusers, that this person is "disruptive".

I don't understand this as any victim would naturally ask a question like this, it is perfectly normal and expectable for a victim to react this way. It is perfectly normal and natural for a person who was abused and sees there life affected by this in a myriad of ways would at least WONDER why some NOMSV people would treat abusers especially if they are not in the field itself or on the board or a moderatorand has no knowledge that this is the policy.

Mr. Singer, you said that my postings are dividing
the membership. How are they dividing the membership? The only way that they could divide the membership is if some members feel that NOMSV should not being treating abusers or that abusers should not be allowed on the website, this is the only way that members could be divided, not on what I believe. And what is wrong with that, are you not interested in what your constituency feels and thinks as you represent them? If it divides the membership then it is the message, not the messenger.

Again, why not put to a vote whether members want NOMSV to treat abusers or whatever? The issue here is not only the treatment of abusers (most of them have not been abused themselves) but who sets the guidelines for NOMSV policy. Should it be the Board or the vast thousands of members? I think it should be both, if the majority agree with NOMSV, then let it be for this is the way it should be.

If you want to find me "disruptive" and remove my ability to offer opinions then let it be.

I find it mind boggling that I am being "disruptive" because I, as an abuse survivor, question treatment of abusers(did you want to ask me if I was actually abused?). I guess I have worked thru enough issues to reach the point that I can question "authority" and decide what is good for me, not automatically identify with the victimizer or minimize my importance as a human being and immediately agree with whatever the person "in charge" wants. Actually I should be commended for my courage to question with the Board or possibly disagree with the Board. I also feel that I have expressed myself in a respectful manner.

If you feel that this topic should not longer be posted here and be discussed only by the Board then let it be. I will respect that decision.


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