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#147743 - 03/30/07 02:13 AM gay abuser
hayden Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 7
For the past 25 years I have had major sexual idetity issues. Over the past months, as I linked my problems to my abuse, I have been reading everything I can find about abuse. At the time of my abuse I knew that my abuser was gay. I spent all those years thinking that I was gay as a result of my experience with my gay abuser. Most of the stuff in the books says that same-sex abusers are not homosexual, but I knew that mine was. Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this? As I saw my abuser over the years as an 'out and proud' homosexual, it only reinforced thinking that I must be gay. And I learned several years (probably 5 years - when I was 12) after my abuse that my abuser was also abused my a man when he was younger. Not hard to make the connection that he had something happen and now is gay, therefore, I must be the same.
I'm wondering about about how knowing that your abuser is gay effects sexual identity issues. Or anyone who has any thoughts or ideas on this issue.


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#147770 - 03/30/07 08:38 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: hayden]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Being abused by a male does not make one gay. 10% of the population is gay and most victims of sexual abuse probably don't
have a sense of their sexual identity when they are abused.

So, some boys who (for whatever reason) are destined to be gay, also get abused. Basically, what I'm saying is that it is not a cause and effect situation. Your abuser might have been destined to be gay and might have been abused but his abuse didn't cause him to be gay. Same for you.

Ken


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#147771 - 03/30/07 08:39 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: hayden]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
I was abused by a gay man when I was around 20. I guess it was abuse. I wasn't asked, I was coerced. I was used. I was an adult and I just let him do what he wanted without fighting back, just as I had done as a child. But I do think it was abuse and yes I battled for years about whether I too was gay because of the experiance. I still wonder from time to time but really don't believe that I am. Don't know if this helps any but this is my experiance.

Dale


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#147801 - 03/30/07 11:34 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: Elad 12]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Hayden,

I think it would be most helpful for you to look at your feelings about your sexuality as one effect the abuse has had on you. It would be so normal for an abused boy to ponder the sexual acts forced upon him, observe that gay men do those same acts, and therefore wonder if now he's gay. It's all very confusing anyway, and a kid living in silence, fear and shame isn't exactly in a good position to get it all sorted out. So this becomes an issue he carries into adulthood.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#147810 - 03/30/07 12:17 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Elad 12]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dale,

Originally Posted By: Elad 12
I wasn't asked, I was coerced. I was used.


Originally Posted By: Elad 12
I was an adult and I just let him do what he wanted without fighting back, just as I had done as a child.


I was struck by how you make the first comment, which (rightly) asserts how abusive the situation was, but then shift to the second comment, which somehow accepts blame for what happened.

There are so many of us who can look back and see, after the abuse ended, times where further sexual incidents occurred. We therefore conclude that while we may have been innocent kids during the abuse, we stand absolutely responsible for whatever happened to us as older teens or adults. Why? Because we were older. We knew we had choices. We could have protected ourselves or said no. We could have stopped it. And so on. We then take the further step of concluding that "responsible" means we are to blame for those incidents".

I think we should reject that argument, and indeed, all that way of thinking. We can all remember how abuse tears up a boy emotionally. That damage continues into adulthood unless he gets the help he needs, and until very recently how would a boy get such help? So it just continues on into adulthood and affects the man that the boy has become.

I remember you talking about that incident when you were 20, and man, I can just imagine how it played out. You were taken by surprise: you were stunned, and suddenly you discovered, "Here I am again". Dale, you didn't "let him do what he wanted without fighting back", you just collapsed, just as so many other young guys in that situation have also done. Little Dale's feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness just flooded over you, and frankly, I'm just not sure what you could have done to protect yourself.

So I hope you won't accept blame for this incident. Accepting responsibility is something else. Yes, we are all adults and must accept responsibility for what we do, but in this case accepting responsibility would mean seeking help and trying to work through your issues, which is exactly what you are doing.

Accepting blame implies that you could have or should have seen this coming, or that you could have or should done something to prevent it or stop it. I really don't think any of that is true.

Looking back at it honestly, do you?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#147859 - 03/30/07 07:25 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: roadrunner]
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
Larry,

You are right. Thanks for pointing that out. When you said "collapsed" I think that was the perfect word to describe what happened.

Dale


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#147952 - 03/31/07 09:52 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: Elad 12]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
in my personal homo opinion, i think you are you born one way and you stay that way. i dont think abuse can "turn you gay." there is absolutely nothing that would turn me straight. its just not who i am. i think tho that things get confusing because "gay" sex opens up another set of emotions and feelings. physcially your body gets turned on which might make you say "oh my god i got turned on so i must be gay." but thats not the case. your body just reacts as a body should. it doesnt know which gender person is touching you.


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#148047 - 03/31/07 06:54 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Jarrad]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: Jarrad
physcially your body gets turned on which might make you say "oh my god i got turned on so i must be gay." but thats not the case. your body just reacts as a body should. it doesnt know which gender person is touching you.


This reminds me of the huge problem some survivors have with guilt: they think the abuse was their fault because they got an erection, achieved an orgasm or ejaculated. They're missing the fact that we are sexual beings and will respond to stimulation, even if the abuser's advances are not wanted and even feared. The sexual response just means our "plumbing" is in order.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#148050 - 03/31/07 07:07 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: roadrunner]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
so..........i have yet figured this sex thing out........i am not attracted to men.....or women..........now a transgendered asian...with youghfull looks...does something......so what does that make me....gsy??????????straight?????????inbetween???????????Sutck>>>>>>>>>>>arristed development??????????????????


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#148103 - 04/01/07 01:45 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: sabata]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Labels are for cans. ;\)



Edited by Dewey2k (04/01/07 11:34 AM)

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#148111 - 04/01/07 03:56 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
maybe lables are for cans...............but that doesnt help me understand......my own sexual things............steve


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#148146 - 04/01/07 11:57 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: sabata]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Steve,

I forgot to put the smiley up after that statement. I added it just now. I didn't mean to be flip. Sorry about that.

When we try to label ourselves (or others for that matter), it puts us in a box with preconceived notions that may or may not fit us. I am primarily attracted to men, yet I find some women physically very attractive. So what am I? Gay? Bi?

I just am. *shrug* If something works for me, then it works.

I use the label gay because it is convenient and fits my attractions for the most part. The stereotypes certainly don't fit me: you wouldn't be able to tell I am gay just by talking to me or looking at me.

I don't worry about the label because no one label can fully describe all that I am.

If you're attracted to youthful looking transgendered, but aren't really attracted to men or women, then you are you: you just are.

As far as arrested emotional development, I think all survivors have this to a greater or lesser extent. I know I do. We're learning all of the stuff that should have developed naturally as we grew up through childhood and our teen years. It's no comfort, I know, but there it is.

If I missed the point, please tell me.



Edited by Dewey2k (04/01/07 11:58 AM)

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#148213 - 04/01/07 05:56 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
thanks foe the clarifaction...............dewey..........i understand about lables.........yet due to my attractions.........is probley one of the reasons i isolate myself....yet as you say when one looks at me they dont see this......but i feel they do.....for some reason....maybe i am still full of shame....waking around with my head down....hoping no one sees me.........steve


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#148224 - 04/01/07 07:02 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: sabata]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Steve,

Shame is pervasive, as you know, and it can infect every facet of our lives.

There are two truisms I've found over the years:
  • Most people won't go out of their way find out these things without an invitation or a reason. They are just not that interested.
  • We think people are always watching us, but in truth, again, they just aren't that interested unless they've been given an invite or a reason.


People are all caught up in their own business, and don't have time to put us under a microscope. A lot of them are probably feeling a lot of the same things, in my experience.

You aren't alone, Steve


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#148230 - 04/01/07 07:44 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
So true............Dewey.........i Allways have to keep my guard up.....i dont invite ayone or give anyone reaons.......keeping the mask on......Steve


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#148289 - 04/02/07 12:17 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: sabata]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Steve,

Originally Posted By: sabata
i understand about lables.........yet due to my attractions.........is probley one of the reasons i isolate myself....yet as you say when one looks at me they dont see this......but i feel they do.....for some reason....maybe i am still full of shame....waking around with my head down....hoping no one sees me.


That feeling that everyone somehow "knows" is a dread we carry along with us from when we were abused as boys. Can you remember how that felt? I recall going to school and feeling like I had an "abuse announcement" written on me with Christmas lights. But as Dwayne says, it just isn't so. Most people are into their own lives and just don't see a thing, and even if they did, they would have no way of interpreting what they saw.

On labels, I think it's worth bearing in mind that gay and straight aren't simple opposites; there are so many shades of sexuality, if you like, and I bet very few people are absolutely gay or absolutely straight. It seems to me that instead of worrying about conforming to the expectations of others we would be better off thinking of these three questions:

1. Am I being totally honest with myself about who I am and what I want sexually?
2. Am I being responsible with my sexual partner(s)?
3. Do I feel fulfilled sexually?

Our aim should be to get to a point where we can answer yes to all three questions. Once we can do that, who cares what others know or think?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#148439 - 04/02/07 08:23 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: roadrunner]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
being honest..good question...........responsable with partners..........no problem there.....no partners...........furfulled sexually????????????i get rid of the urge by myself.....then get on with things............steve


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#165168 - 07/06/07 08:20 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
Buernt Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 5
Ken,

One night at a slumber party with a friend of mine, the subject of the morality of homosexuality came up. None of the people there knew I was abused when I was four until I was seven or that I was fighting a homosexual identity. Three of the guys there identified themselves as gay. One of them, my friend, would later identify himself as gay also. I told them I felt that homosexuality was wrong and that is was probably the result of spiritual, mental, and/or sexual abuse for a lot of people. At the time, the only gay people I knew was the one who abused me, who was not openly gay, and my uncle who was sexually abused by two of his brothers. The three openly gay people volunteered that none of them had ever been abused. My friend, who later decided he was gay, told me the next day that one of them was molested by his uncles, one by a family friend, and the other one's dad was in jail for molesting him. My friend was beaten by his mom and raped by a family friend. It is kinda funny how all of us screwed up kids ended up at a slumber party together. My friend even knowing my background tried to get me to engage in a relationship with him. It made me sad to my core. The fact is I think they lied about what happened to them in order to make their decision to be homosexual their own choice rather than something someone chose for them.


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#165306 - 07/07/07 11:18 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Buernt]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I'm sorry to disagree, but being gay or straight is not something that someone else chooses or forces on you.

Even though I was abused by four different men, that is not what makes me gay. If anything, you'd think that would have made me anything BUT gay. The fact that I am gay now had nothing to do with the sex of my abusers; that's just the way I am.

Of this I am convinced...

If a gay boy were to be abused by a female, would that make him straight? If so, there'd be a whole new tend in treatments for homosexuality...

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#165327 - 07/08/07 02:33 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: Lazarus]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
If I may be so bold as to state an opinion here.

I agree with the statements that being sexually abused by a male does not make one gay.

The statement has also been made that same sex attraction is something you're born with. I can agree with that as well to a point. The problem I have with all this "what makes me whatever label you want to give my sexual tendencies" question is that I get tired of folks telling me that it has to be a certain way.

The right wing Moral Majority types seem to believe that the only cause can be my personal choice. They say that because to admit otherwise will bring their whole religious and political house of cards tumbling down.

The militant homosexual crowd seem to insist that I believe it is something I'm born with. To admit otherwise will bring their whole political house of cards tumbling down.

I believe there are perhaps many reasons for being attracted to the same or opposite sex including genetics AND/OR choice, not to mention the spectrum of reasons that may lie in between the two extremes.

So, now that I've said my piece just shoot me! Damn I've been wanting to say that for a long time. If I hijacked the thread just get a rope!

John



Edited by walkingsouth (07/08/07 10:15 AM)
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#165344 - 07/08/07 04:10 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I think you're probably right. Maybe it becomes easier to see if we look at examples that aren't so morally charged and controversial. One guy likes the city, for example, while another can't stand cities and loves to live out in a forest. One guy will love laying around on the beach while another doesn't. One guy likes to dress up while another is very informal. In all those cases i think we would admit that both nature and nurture must surely play a role. So why not with issues of sexuality?

Just a thought.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#165364 - 07/08/07 07:29 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Please allow me to elaborate on this point for a moment;

Most of my adult life I was what people would label as "BiSexual", and my credo was that it was the PERSON I fell in love (or lust) with that was important, not their gender. I've always been a very sexual person (sexual addiction? Probably...)I've slept with "straight" men, gay men, straight women, and once I even had a torrid little affair with a self-proclaimed lesbian that was one of the best sexual relationships I've ever had.

In my adult life I've had 5 long-term relationships (arbitrarily I define that as living together as a couple for 5 years or longer): three with men and two with women. I married both of the women and had three kids, and I would have married the men as well, if it had been possible.

I am now in what I beleve will be my last 'marriage', and it's with a man I love very much. I say that I believe it will be my last because this is the first time I have ever been monogamous, and that's the way I want it.

The bottom line is this; being labeled a bisexual is worse than being labeled as gay because neither straight nor gay people trust you to make a comittment, and probably for good reason. But I think that, if social stigma were removed most people would be bisexual to some degree. It's when one finally makes a choice to commit to one person that any type of lable might apply. Since I am in a committed gay relationship, I consider myself gay, and I am openly gay with my family and in my community. But I'm still attracted to some women as well, even though I wouldn't act on that attraction. That puts me somewhere in the middle of the gay-straight spectrum.

With the exception of the Moral Majority and the militant homosexuals, I think that's where most people are - somewhere in the middle where labels don't apply.

So Steve, I'd suggest that you not let the issue of whether you are straight or gay be too bothersome. Just be yourself. If you just want a fuck-buddy, the body parts might matter. When you fall in love, it should be with a whole person.

Just my two cents...

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#166322 - 07/12/07 02:56 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Lazarus]
Buernt Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 5
This is an argument from false cause. I didn't say abuse will always shape someone in the form of the abuse. I was just saying from my personal experience, all the gay people I have met have been sexually abused. This could be a stastical anomoly, but my knowledge of the events give it more merit than a mere five instances. My close friend from the story was raped at 14 but his whole life his mom beat him and said she wished she had aborted him. He was one of five kids and was a result of a one night stand. He longed for a dad and even in his advances towards me wanted me to love him in a way that was both fathering and sexual. I don't think that his abuse made him gay. I think he was abused because he was vunerable. In his case, his mother attacking his worth and considering him garbage and having no dad left him void. He needed someone to fill up a big empty place in him, and a woman was just something to judge him and torment him with his inadequacy.

My point was to say that the statements about abuse being from straight men and that abuse doesn't result in homosexuality are made for the same reason those three people lied to me. If you don't need moral justification before God, don't argue for moral justification. People who create a category of moral justification when they claim that anything that doesn't hurt someone against his or her will have no reason to justify themselves and others if no one gets hurt. If an abused person wants to say I enjoy men and the first men I enjoyed were the one's who abused me, how are they "hurt" by that statement. Other then to say that other people's perceptions hurt them. And these perceptions must, therefore, be changed. Wait!! I think that explains the search for moral justification. Bleck...

Here is the deal. Sexuality is not an input/output kinda thing. It involves values, fears, pride, hope, expectation, pain, joy, etc. All abusers are not the same. All victims are not the same. My abuser would stop raping me when I was in pain. But he still threatened to kill me and rape me if I told anyone. If I was hurting, he would make me do stuff to him for my pleasure. He was always caring and desiring to "please" me. I wish he had just hurt me like some of you were hurt. I wish he hadn't of tried to get into my heart and mind.

Not all abuse results in homosexuality. But here is something interesting, female abuse of a male by coercion is emasculating (unless it is some teacher acting like a giddy 13 year old) and male abuse of a male is emasculating. When you have an emasculated male looking for his stolen masculinity, many of them will not look to a woman. They will look to men. Little boys discover what it means to be a man from watching other men and not from watching women. Emasculated males have two popular choices in regards to finding their sexual masculinity: womanize or look to other men. How many times have we all heard about a man trying to make himself straight by sleeping with a ton of women? Every time I hear someone use that as part of their moral justification for being gay I have to laugh. Don't they know that even straight men have trouble keeping it up from womanizing? Unfortunately, sleeping with tons of women is like water skiing naked. You just end up numb and exhausted.

In Greek society, I don't think abuse caused the prevelance of homosexuality. I think it was the glorification of self. And women weren't seen as really having a self. They were considered incapable of knowing a man or being equal to a man. If men worship masculinity, they will naturally be disposed to homosexuality. I think all the gays in Greek society were genetically gay. But then again, I think vanity is genetic. Men worshipping power and masculinity is also genetic.

Sexuality is extremely malible but only in one direction. Once it is set, it is like apoxy glue. How it is set is not a direct connection. It is a choosing individual being formed as he or she responds to experience and forms values, receives values, rejects values, responds to instinct, etc. Therefore, a person can forge a path of sexual being in their mind with no apparent/conscious choice and once it is set it is like a tree trunk. It can grow various branches and lean and tilt some, but it's core stays in the same place. Something so engrained in a person is not changed by direct volition or choice. I believe it has a biological basis. However, I do not believe it is purely genetic or fixed apart from a person's becoming. The people who want us to believe it is fixed beyond all experience and immutable are trying to free us from guilt for something they don't even believe is wrong. If someone is trying to change his or her sexuality based on guilt, they are screwed. Trying to be something for someone else is no way to embark on the most painful and blinding journey. At best, such a person will end up being a fake and a twisted bifrication.

But wanting to change because you want to unravel what happened to you, because you want to enjoy a wife, because you want to take back something that was taken from you, etc are reasons that are noble enough to carry someone through something so hard. Clearly if you don't want those things, why change? In fact, I would advise anyone to never try and "moralize" themselves without knowing why they are compelled to do so. By the way, a Greek man in Greek society could have stopped and questioned whether his desire to sleep with a man/boy was formed by a social force that did not have his best interest in mind, and in so doing seek to dismantle that desire and the values that hold it up. In the same way, a modern emasculated (hyper-masculine included) man can seek to understand the forces that formed him and unravel them. Granted abuse allows for a much clearer this is what he/she and this is what I am.

I do not like people telling me how to think. I do not like people making broad assertions and forcing them down everyone's throats in order to avoid guilt they shouldn't have in the first place.


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#210348 - 03/12/08 08:00 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
Jarrad-

Your post about sexuality goes against all experience I have seen on this site. Many people are confused for years about their sexuality because of abuse. It is a defining symptom.

JT


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#210349 - 03/12/08 08:04 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
HAHA I agree!


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