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#165344 - 07/08/07 04:10 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I think you're probably right. Maybe it becomes easier to see if we look at examples that aren't so morally charged and controversial. One guy likes the city, for example, while another can't stand cities and loves to live out in a forest. One guy will love laying around on the beach while another doesn't. One guy likes to dress up while another is very informal. In all those cases i think we would admit that both nature and nurture must surely play a role. So why not with issues of sexuality?

Just a thought.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#165364 - 07/08/07 07:29 AM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Please allow me to elaborate on this point for a moment;

Most of my adult life I was what people would label as "BiSexual", and my credo was that it was the PERSON I fell in love (or lust) with that was important, not their gender. I've always been a very sexual person (sexual addiction? Probably...)I've slept with "straight" men, gay men, straight women, and once I even had a torrid little affair with a self-proclaimed lesbian that was one of the best sexual relationships I've ever had.

In my adult life I've had 5 long-term relationships (arbitrarily I define that as living together as a couple for 5 years or longer): three with men and two with women. I married both of the women and had three kids, and I would have married the men as well, if it had been possible.

I am now in what I beleve will be my last 'marriage', and it's with a man I love very much. I say that I believe it will be my last because this is the first time I have ever been monogamous, and that's the way I want it.

The bottom line is this; being labeled a bisexual is worse than being labeled as gay because neither straight nor gay people trust you to make a comittment, and probably for good reason. But I think that, if social stigma were removed most people would be bisexual to some degree. It's when one finally makes a choice to commit to one person that any type of lable might apply. Since I am in a committed gay relationship, I consider myself gay, and I am openly gay with my family and in my community. But I'm still attracted to some women as well, even though I wouldn't act on that attraction. That puts me somewhere in the middle of the gay-straight spectrum.

With the exception of the Moral Majority and the militant homosexuals, I think that's where most people are - somewhere in the middle where labels don't apply.

So Steve, I'd suggest that you not let the issue of whether you are straight or gay be too bothersome. Just be yourself. If you just want a fuck-buddy, the body parts might matter. When you fall in love, it should be with a whole person.

Just my two cents...

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#166322 - 07/12/07 02:56 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Lazarus]
Buernt Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 5
This is an argument from false cause. I didn't say abuse will always shape someone in the form of the abuse. I was just saying from my personal experience, all the gay people I have met have been sexually abused. This could be a stastical anomoly, but my knowledge of the events give it more merit than a mere five instances. My close friend from the story was raped at 14 but his whole life his mom beat him and said she wished she had aborted him. He was one of five kids and was a result of a one night stand. He longed for a dad and even in his advances towards me wanted me to love him in a way that was both fathering and sexual. I don't think that his abuse made him gay. I think he was abused because he was vunerable. In his case, his mother attacking his worth and considering him garbage and having no dad left him void. He needed someone to fill up a big empty place in him, and a woman was just something to judge him and torment him with his inadequacy.

My point was to say that the statements about abuse being from straight men and that abuse doesn't result in homosexuality are made for the same reason those three people lied to me. If you don't need moral justification before God, don't argue for moral justification. People who create a category of moral justification when they claim that anything that doesn't hurt someone against his or her will have no reason to justify themselves and others if no one gets hurt. If an abused person wants to say I enjoy men and the first men I enjoyed were the one's who abused me, how are they "hurt" by that statement. Other then to say that other people's perceptions hurt them. And these perceptions must, therefore, be changed. Wait!! I think that explains the search for moral justification. Bleck...

Here is the deal. Sexuality is not an input/output kinda thing. It involves values, fears, pride, hope, expectation, pain, joy, etc. All abusers are not the same. All victims are not the same. My abuser would stop raping me when I was in pain. But he still threatened to kill me and rape me if I told anyone. If I was hurting, he would make me do stuff to him for my pleasure. He was always caring and desiring to "please" me. I wish he had just hurt me like some of you were hurt. I wish he hadn't of tried to get into my heart and mind.

Not all abuse results in homosexuality. But here is something interesting, female abuse of a male by coercion is emasculating (unless it is some teacher acting like a giddy 13 year old) and male abuse of a male is emasculating. When you have an emasculated male looking for his stolen masculinity, many of them will not look to a woman. They will look to men. Little boys discover what it means to be a man from watching other men and not from watching women. Emasculated males have two popular choices in regards to finding their sexual masculinity: womanize or look to other men. How many times have we all heard about a man trying to make himself straight by sleeping with a ton of women? Every time I hear someone use that as part of their moral justification for being gay I have to laugh. Don't they know that even straight men have trouble keeping it up from womanizing? Unfortunately, sleeping with tons of women is like water skiing naked. You just end up numb and exhausted.

In Greek society, I don't think abuse caused the prevelance of homosexuality. I think it was the glorification of self. And women weren't seen as really having a self. They were considered incapable of knowing a man or being equal to a man. If men worship masculinity, they will naturally be disposed to homosexuality. I think all the gays in Greek society were genetically gay. But then again, I think vanity is genetic. Men worshipping power and masculinity is also genetic.

Sexuality is extremely malible but only in one direction. Once it is set, it is like apoxy glue. How it is set is not a direct connection. It is a choosing individual being formed as he or she responds to experience and forms values, receives values, rejects values, responds to instinct, etc. Therefore, a person can forge a path of sexual being in their mind with no apparent/conscious choice and once it is set it is like a tree trunk. It can grow various branches and lean and tilt some, but it's core stays in the same place. Something so engrained in a person is not changed by direct volition or choice. I believe it has a biological basis. However, I do not believe it is purely genetic or fixed apart from a person's becoming. The people who want us to believe it is fixed beyond all experience and immutable are trying to free us from guilt for something they don't even believe is wrong. If someone is trying to change his or her sexuality based on guilt, they are screwed. Trying to be something for someone else is no way to embark on the most painful and blinding journey. At best, such a person will end up being a fake and a twisted bifrication.

But wanting to change because you want to unravel what happened to you, because you want to enjoy a wife, because you want to take back something that was taken from you, etc are reasons that are noble enough to carry someone through something so hard. Clearly if you don't want those things, why change? In fact, I would advise anyone to never try and "moralize" themselves without knowing why they are compelled to do so. By the way, a Greek man in Greek society could have stopped and questioned whether his desire to sleep with a man/boy was formed by a social force that did not have his best interest in mind, and in so doing seek to dismantle that desire and the values that hold it up. In the same way, a modern emasculated (hyper-masculine included) man can seek to understand the forces that formed him and unravel them. Granted abuse allows for a much clearer this is what he/she and this is what I am.

I do not like people telling me how to think. I do not like people making broad assertions and forcing them down everyone's throats in order to avoid guilt they shouldn't have in the first place.


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#210348 - 03/12/08 08:00 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: Dewey2k]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
Jarrad-

Your post about sexuality goes against all experience I have seen on this site. Many people are confused for years about their sexuality because of abuse. It is a defining symptom.

JT


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#210349 - 03/12/08 08:04 PM Re: gay abuser [Re: WalkingSouth]
JT's the Man Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 41
HAHA I agree!


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