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#147509 - 03/28/07 08:46 PM Many paths
Elad 12 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
dg


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#147533 - 03/28/07 10:26 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dale,

I'm translating a medieval Arabic book that you would like, I think. It goes like this. A boy is born by spontaneous generation on a deserted island and is adopted by a gazelle, who raises him as her own child. He grows up and discovers, through his own intellect, all the truths of the natural and spiritual worlds.

Then, when the boy grows up, a man from another island which is inhabited lands and the two discover each other. After they learn to communicate, the one from the inhabited island discovers that his "organized religion" is but a hollow shell of the "natural religion" of the guy from the deserted island. So they go off to the inhabited island to teach them the errors of their ways. Now you can imagine how well THAT goes!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#147534 - 03/28/07 10:27 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Dale,

There is also an argument to be made for raising your child lovingly within a faith and teaching him how that faith embraces and honours all other faiths. Pope Benedict wrote a beautiful piece called "The Open Circle" that talks about the importance of teaching Catholic children the beauty and value of faiths other than Christianity.

Personally I believe that each person will find their own faith as you did, but I also believe that you need to stay within "your" faith, and use the beliefs and faith of others as a source of strength. For example I have a close friend who is Muslim. His faith is unbelievably strong and whenever I talk to him I feel like I have been drinking at the fountain of youth. He restores my own faith in God.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#147550 - 03/29/07 12:07 AM Re: Many paths [Re: Nobbynobs]
Elad 12 Offline
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Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
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#147578 - 03/29/07 08:38 AM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
You're right, it doesn't happen that way very often. A lot of people are so overcome by fear that they pass on those fears to their children. Religion seems to bring out the worst of those fears and you end up with things like those private schools that you describe.

At the same time, I know people who are trying to raise their children within one faith, but teaching them to love and appreciate all faiths. I guess we can only hope and pray that this catches on.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#147650 - 03/29/07 05:49 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Nobbynobs]
Halibut Offline
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Registered: 08/29/06
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I think God speaks in at least 6.9 billion voices. What he says in each of those languages is the same....

Frank


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#147668 - 03/29/07 06:37 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Halibut]
Nobbynobs Offline
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Posts: 1286
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"They come in throngs and set us examples of every virtue. The languages differ but the religion is the same; as many different choirs chant the psalms as there are nations..."

St. Jerome

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#147764 - 03/30/07 07:27 AM Re: Many paths [Re: Nobbynobs]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
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Loc: Carlisle, PA
Looking back over this thread reminds me of a similar discussion I have been having in another context. Someone participating in the group posted with a telling comment: "Your God is too small".

Something to think about! It's our spiritual institutions and society that impose these intolerable and narrow limits on the mercy and goodness of God, and then threaten us with eternal punishment if we don't comply. Why on earth should we fall for that?

I look at my Muslim and Jewish friends and I don't see people who are doomed. I see people just like myself, struggling to do their best as calling on God for his love and support. If I can't imagine a God capable of that unconditional love and support, that's my failing and not God's.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#147766 - 03/30/07 08:20 AM Re: Many paths [Re: roadrunner]
Elad 12 Offline
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#148609 - 04/03/07 01:29 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
Muldoon Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
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Loc: St Paul MN
Quote:
A part of me believes that children should not be introduced to or made to believe a certian religion until they are old enough to search out for themselves the knowledge they are seeking, that forcing kids to believe a certian way is abusive.


Dale that's the way I brought my girl up. I let her find her own way down her path. I think it worked out, she did lots of reading for years.

Wish I had half the spirtality she has and I didn't force any of it on her.

Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#148673 - 04/03/07 07:16 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Muldoon]
Elad 12 Offline
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#148755 - 04/04/07 04:17 AM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
Muldoon Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
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While that was the same old shit that I got from my parents and I rejected it all. Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#149139 - 04/05/07 06:44 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Muldoon]
jwb1410 Offline
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Posts: 2
Loc: IL
Dale and Tom,

Dale put forth that the forcing of a child to believe a certain way is possibly abusive. I would put forth that how we parent in America is often, even with the best of intentions, a wounding process. And, we are learning healthier ways.

My experience in my church has been that many of the kids are forced to attend - the greater the resistance, the greater the force.

I did not have a choice as a child as to whether or not I would attend church, but I found my ways to survive it. One way was to dissociate. My brother showed me what the path of resistance looked like, and it did not look good. You lost love and affection. Not wanting that, and seeing no way out, I escaped to my fantasy world, and pretty much zoned out.

Not wanting my children to experience what I did, I have defend their right not to go to church, and I support them in what it is that they do want to do. That does not mean that I do not share my beliefs with them, but when I do, I present them as being mine. I share with them what I have learned of life and leave it up to them to decide what to do with it.

God does not need me to convince my children of his/her existence. Just like I do not need to defend gravity. If it exists, then they will experience it. Like with gravity though, my children needs God named for them. I can do that for them.

I can be their guide and companion, but I do not want to be a "Dictator for God."


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#149308 - 04/06/07 08:43 PM Re: Many paths [Re: jwb1410]
Elad 12 Offline
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d



Edited by Elad 12 (06/06/10 08:21 PM)

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#149314 - 04/06/07 08:57 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
GWsurvives Offline
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Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 251
Loc: Atlanta, and here, among othe...
Dale.. I'm not sure what I believe. I was raised in the Baptist church, three times a week mandatory. Dad's still a deacon. My older brother was abused my the youth minister at that church. I have lost all faith in ANY organized religion, too many bad things happen in the name of "God". That being said, I do know there is something, some THING, that is more than I am. Is it the souls of all that came before us? Is it the "gods" of the American Indian, the ancient Greeks, the natives of Brazil? I'm not sure. I know for me, it is not the all powerful "God" of the bible, the one that looks over sparrows so he must surely look over me. I am beginning to think that "God" is so much bigger than any religion. Much too busy to to be involved in a person's life. He's off creating other universes. For if he is not, how could he let the evilness and awefullness that happens in this world happen? I choose to believe he is unaware.

My 2 cents, and probablly not worth 2 cents to anyone but ME!

GW

_________________________
"Some times there just aren't enough rocks" Forrest Gump

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#149386 - 04/07/07 08:43 AM Re: Many paths [Re: GWsurvives]
Elad 12 Offline
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#149446 - 04/07/07 03:26 PM Re: Many paths [Re: jwb1410]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
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JWB,

Originally Posted By: jwb1410
My experience in my church has been that many of the kids are forced to attend - the greater the resistance, the greater the force.

I did not have a choice as a child as to whether or not I would attend church, but I found my ways to survive it.


My sister Cathie ("Lady Rock" here on MS) and I used to get dragged to church every Sunday. Our response, once we were old enough to figure out a strategy, was to say we were going to sit in the balcony with our friends. Then we would take off to the State Restaurant down on Front Street, on the river, for burgers and fries. We would have a wonderful time, then blitz back to the church in time for fellowship hour after the service.

What was funny was that Mom would ask us what we thought of the sermon, and we could discuss it with her just on the basis of the title we had seen listed in the program. I guess we were pretty cynical.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#149461 - 04/07/07 04:40 PM Re: Many paths [Re: roadrunner]
Elad 12 Offline
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#149464 - 04/07/07 05:01 PM Re: Many paths [Re: Elad 12]
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dale, I do believe children should follow their parents in religion, and the reason I say it, is that religion saved me in the long run.

There can in my eatimation be only one God, call him what you want.
We pretty much blame religion for any bad events that go on, when religion is not the cause of wars and famine.

I have read many books on indigenous peoples and the religion they follow, and it is empowering to read this stuff.
The Mayah indians, Buddhists, Hinduism, do not condone wars, nor do they create them.

Man causes wars with the religious card as its joker!
That statement causes more resentment in communities than any war could possibly achieve, the ability to blame religion as a weapon in terrorism is totally blindsided philosophy,

ste


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#149588 - 04/08/07 12:38 PM Re: Many paths [Re: reality2k4]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Larry, Dale,

So funny! I was much more compliant in my church going. When I reached the teen years when church traditionally becomes a terrible bore, our congregation hired a youth pastor who was much more "hip", and we'd often times have our own services. Made it much more palatable to this bad boy, cuz (cos, 'cuz, wink wink) I surely would have been out doing something else even if it was just sitting in the car staring at the dashboard. Perhaps that's the reason I'm still a church goer today.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#149591 - 04/08/07 12:46 PM Re: Many paths [Re: WalkingSouth]
EGL Offline
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Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I guess I'll present a flip side to the forced attendance scenario. We went to church up until I was about 5 or 6, then we just stopped going. So basically, I grew up without any spiritual guidance whatsoever. We never, ever discussed anything spiritual in our house, nothing about God, nothing about religion, period. Looking back now, it was where a lot of the emotional vacuum came from.

Out of all the things I have a gripe about with my parents, the emotional abuse, the physical abuse and neglect, all of that - the thing that I think bothers me a lot is the fact that they didn't see fit to impart to me any sense of self and spirituality. It's like they thought that I either didn't deserve it, didn't need it, or just wasn't worth it. I don't know. But I see that as a real failure on their part.

I think it is a beautiful thing when a parent shares their spirituality with their child in a loving way that shows a part of their heritage. I missed that in my childhood and it really pains me that I didn't have it. I've been avoiding this thread because of that, but finally decided to chime in. So I don't know which is worse, to have it rammed down your throat or to have it so totally absent. I guess both really suck.

_________________________
Eddie

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#149651 - 04/08/07 05:24 PM Re: Many paths [Re: WalkingSouth]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

Originally Posted By: walkingsouth
When I reached the teen years when church traditionally becomes a terrible bore, our congregation hired a youth pastor who was much more "hip", and we'd often times have our own services. Made it much more palatable to this bad boy, cuz (cos, 'cuz, wink wink) I surely would have been out doing something else even if it was just sitting in the car staring at the dashboard. Perhaps that's the reason I'm still a church goer today.


That's so cool you had that. We had a youth pastor for awhile, or rather an assistant minister who was more in tune with what kids wanted and what would hold their attention. We sat around and talked about issues like sex, racism, capital punishment, Vietnam, and so on. It was really good.

Then a new "youth leader" took over and wanted to browbeat us about the danger of going to hell if we even glanced in the direction of any religious beliefs apart from those of mainstream American Protestantism. The Catholics, Mormons, Jews - all were doomed because they were members of "cults".

So back to the State Restaurant! Yay!!!!! A group of us took along our copies of the book we were supposed to be reading and gagged on our fries as we read out the most hilarious examples of the insanity that filled the book.

Sigh. I have forgotten the title unfortunately. I'll have to check with Cathie and see if she remembers.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#149652 - 04/08/07 05:26 PM Re: Many paths [Re: EGL]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Quote:
So I don't know which is worse, to have it rammed down your throat or to have it so totally absent. I guess both really suck.

Eddie,

I actually think you've hit it spot on with that comment. Thanks.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#149653 - 04/08/07 05:34 PM Re: Many paths [Re: EGL]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Eddie,

Originally Posted By: EGL
I think it is a beautiful thing when a parent shares their spirituality with their child in a loving way that shows a part of their heritage. I missed that in my childhood and it really pains me that I didn't have it. I've been avoiding this thread because of that, but finally decided to chime in. So I don't know which is worse, to have it rammed down your throat or to have it so totally absent. I guess both really suck.


I wonder if there's no conflict at all between what you are saying and what others are writing about. My parents imparted to my sisters and me a real sense of spirituality and I appreciated and respected that. What we resisted - fiercely - was dogmatism and intolerance, which we detected in ample measure in the church. Is that "spirituality"? I don't think so.

I should say that things improved a lot in our church in the 70s, largely due to the influence of the younger adults (like my parents) who got older, started taking on more responsibility in the church, and demanded that things change.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#149667 - 04/08/07 06:43 PM Re: Many paths [Re: EGL]
Elad 12 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
Eddie,

Thanks for writing what you did. It makes me think. I suppose the ideal situation probably lies somewhere between how we were both raised. I just don't know where. I like what someone else wrote. He shares his beliefs with his children but "as his beliefs" and I tend to think parents should support thier children when they want to explore different spiritual paths. But that's me coming from the place that my upbringing created for me .

Dale


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#149766 - 04/09/07 12:49 AM Re: Many paths [Re: EGL]
jwb1410 Offline
New Here

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 2
Loc: IL
Eddie,

Thanks for sharing your story. I am glad you decided to "chime in." No matter what your parents thought, you did deserve to have your childhood personal and spiritual needs met, and you were worth it (and you still are). It was their failure.

You are right; both abusive and neglectful treatment really suck!

I have a lot of thoughts about the middle road. The gist of them is that children need to be seen and heard and nurtured and accepted and praised and guided and protected and validated. That is what I believe it means to love. When parents fail to consistently do so, children suffer and their sense of self is warped. The road of recovery from such wounds is truly a "Heroes Journey" and a spiritual path.


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#149939 - 04/09/07 09:43 PM Re: Many paths [Re: jwb1410]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Quote:
children need to be seen and heard and nurtured and accepted and praised and guided and protected and validated. That is what I believe it means to love. When parents fail to consistently do so, children suffer and their sense of self is warped. The road of recovery from such wounds is truly a "Heroes Journey" and a spiritual path.

Exceptionally well put, jwb. I wonder what's so difficult about that concept...

Thanks,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#149941 - 04/09/07 09:50 PM Re: Many paths [Re: WalkingSouth]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Thank you, JWB. That was so very well said.

P.S. Welcome to MS. Glad you're here and hope you find healing here as well.

_________________________
Eddie

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#150837 - 04/14/07 08:19 PM Re: Many paths [Re: EGL]
froggy12 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
It's not always a good idea to know what happens in God's Kitchen. It's better to stay in the dining room, near the door, in case of a grease fire.

froggy

_________________________
??

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#150839 - 04/14/07 08:40 PM Re: Many paths [Re: froggy12]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
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my family neve took us to church but they did talk about god ,yeah god knows if your bad ,god sees everything you do ,god will punisih you if your bad ,all i felt about god was fear ,then when all the bad stuff happened i totaly expected god to stop it and punish my perp ,after all he saw everything right? i think never mentioning god to a kid is better than making him believe that god would save him if he was good ,all that does is make the kid think hes not good enough for god to care about.saying nothing is better than lying

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#151960 - 04/21/07 12:02 AM Re: Many paths [Re: Muldoon]
Daniel Peter Offline
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Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Canada
I was only ever concerned with ONE of God's voices, or messengers. He taught me that I could never trust anything ANY human ever told me about "God." Fortunately, I haven't lost my trust in God himself.

Today, after a few decades of "enlightenment," I still won't trust them...but at least am finishing a BA in Biblical Studies so I can understand what they were SUPPOSED to be teaching me.

I did get some valuable lessons though: NO religion can possibly be perfect, because humans control what their lesson plans; therefore, NO religion deserves absolute loyalty, they deserve to have their leaders viewed critically. Also, since religions are led by "people," a follower who will die for their religion, or kill for their religion, cannot be justify it in the name of God...only in the name of their teacher--in whom they have TRULY placed their trust over and above GOD'S law. More-over, by killing or dying or "other" acts int eh name of "what God wants", they are taking the gift of life that God gave each of us, and that all religions teach to charish, and are destroying it for themselves as well as for others. Thus, those who do those things in the name of "God" are the ones who are TRULY rejecting GOD by spitting in the face of His gifts to us.

(yes, I'm a little Duck Fupped...spiritually at least.)

Daniel Peter

_________________________
He who dies with the most toys...loses them all when he dies.

He who dies having fed and cared for his brother, wins in the eyes of God...and the hearts of his brothers.

He who dies but didn't ride...well...he didn't really live anyway!

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