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#146050 - 03/19/07 05:05 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Sometimes when we are too close to our pain it becomes so large that it consumes us, at that moment nothing that anyone would say would make any sense.

The only escape then is to watch someone elseís pain, and find the courage then to survive, and better still work at it.

Personally what freed me from my pain, was listening to another story that had pain greater than mine - A boy who was trapped for three months by his abusers, and abused regularly, till he escaped. He is still alive, that was itself reason enough for me to get started on my healing work.

Here's another inspiring story about a Rwandan Holocaust survivor, you could final forgive and set herself. Read it, and then take a state on forgiveness. If she can, any one can.

Forgiving the Unforgiveable


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146064 - 03/19/07 09:15 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Well I haven't gone away! Anyone that has read my views on this topic in its previous incarnations will know exactly where I stand.

Anyone else can have their opinion, but I am not waiting for some baptism of forgiving light - it won't happen!

I have too many important things going on in my life to even consider for one millisecond whether or not I should forgive the paedophile that groomed and sexually abused me and numerous others.

I spend my time making sure that others in this world are safe, and doing what I can to promote their happiness and contentment.

Before I made a statement that led to this lowlife paedophiles conviction in court, I wondered if there was a light on in his soul! Was there any reason that he may have done this, that he did not himself understand? There obviously wasn't, as he decided to torture myself and other complainants by denying everything and extending the damage done to us by another 17 months before he was convicted. If he had shown any sign of remorse, any concern at all about any of the survivors of his crimes, then maybe I could have shown some forgiveness.

He does not care about any of us! Let him rot!

If someone breaks my lamp (one early example in this text) I can forgive them, for that would be an accident. If someone picks my lamp up and wilfully smashes it over my head, that is a different issue & only forgiveable if there is some medical or mental issues that results in such an attack.

That's what paedophiles do see - they smash us over our heads with their desires, and they don't give a damn about the damage.

Forgive? No! Move on? Yes!

As for the religious side (seeing as how it's been brought in again). How can I take seriously that I must follow the path of those 'seriously good, religious people' that created a haven in the church for paedophiles. A haven that lasted for decades. Religious people that covered up paedophile activities & simply moved their preachers to another parish to start abusing all over again.

Suffer not the little children, let them come unto me? Hypocrisy to the extreme.

PS - it's now one year (17th March) since I was in court bringing 'my abuser' to account for his crimes. His life has not really changed in that time (suspended sentence because the crimes were historical).

Of the 3 of us that went against him in court - 'this elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions from long ago'.

I have varying thoughts about the old bastard - none of them feature fluffy kittens and cute little puppies. The good thing is that he is no longer in my mind all day / every day. He pops up now ang again, but has no control now.

Witness number 2 - see him quite regulalry, but he always looks sad.

Witness number 3 - well he was highly upset on the last day in court, because our overly politically correct judiciary were obviously more concerned about the bloody paedophile than they were about us. Witness number 3 is now a virtual recluse.

See we only wanted REAL JUSTICE - tell them that they must forgive to their faces, and I don't believe the answer would come in words.

We do not have to forgive ourselves, for we did nothing wrong, even though like many I did blame myself for what happened.

I am off to work shortly and will do the best that I can. I am proud of what I have achieved despite the paedophile. That is the best way that I can forgive myself - being successful. That way I can show the paedophile my middle finger and tell him to pivot.

Best wishes ...Rik

*Still in the hang them and flog them brigade & no apologies for that!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#146070 - 03/19/07 09:35 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: RICK57]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Fkn right!!!

I'm SO sorry to hear about the suspended sentence!

THAT'S what relying on the justice system will do for us gents!!

Did you happen to see the little video of Florida justice killing a boy?

NOW... do we forgive the failed justice system????

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#146074 - 03/19/07 10:17 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Robbie,

Oh no I am in no way try to shut down this topic. The lessons I am learning from everyone are truly inspiriing and helping me to further refine my own thinking on this very difficult and poignant issue.

I hope that everyone will understand that my writings are not attempts at converting anyone to my point of view. I am not a preacher, merely a fellow survivor who is using this place to rediscover my own voice as a person, and as a writer. My posts are my attempts to formulate and figure out my own thinking about many aspects of my own path to recovery. I have been tremendously uplifted (and surprised) to hear from many people here that my work has been helpful to them. I promise I'll continue to do my work and share it with you all, not because I feel an obligation to anyone else, but because I feel an obligation to myself to continue my own healing.

Rik,

No apologies necessary my friend. I am just as outraged at the failure of your justice system to hold your abuser accountable as you are. Your ability to move forward in your own life is commendable, as is the stand you took to try get this person held responsible for wht he did. Sadly, the jury's attitude shows just how much work we as a community have to do to get this evil understood for the life destroying crime that it is.

I also wanted to comment on the light (pardon the pun) you shed on my earlier example about a friend who breaks your lamp. You are correct to point out that the example I used relies on the unspoken assumption that the damage was caused by an accident. However, I think the power of forgiveness can be even more clearly highlighted when I am attacked.

To tie this into an earlier thread, I think that the crime at stake is not assault, but robbery. What the person who attacks me steals from me is a sense of inner peace (not to sound too zen about it). Why does he steal it? Well for many reasons (none of which constitute a justifiable excuse), but at the core I get attacked when someone seeks to take my own sense of peace away to replenish some lack of peace in themselves.

For me, I hold that repairing the damage done, and replacing what was stolen from me take greater precedence than holding those who have done me wrong accountable. Why? For two reasons -

First, after being attacked by someone, it seems to me unlikely that they will freely offer to replace what was taken. Therefore it falls on me to replace what was taken from my soul. In my way of thinking, this assumption and acceptance of the damage done, and the effort I make to replace what was taken from me constitute forgiveness. It does not, in ANY WAY absolve my abuser of his guilt, rather I choose to accept that he will never offer to replace what he took from me.

Secondly, I think that I will be a more powerful warrior when I have learned how to protect my own sense of self from the attacks of everyday life. I can be a more effective champion for the rights of all of us, and work harder to get society to change its attitudes about how significant the damage done to us has been now that I have done the first stages of healing; now that I have begun to repair and replace what was stolen from me.

The more and more I think about these issues, the more I begin to feel certain that, in some way, this is becoming a life's work for me. Not merely healing myself, but standing up and fighting for all of us. As you so poignantly described Rik, there is far too much ignorance and far too much acceptence of the criminals in our society. This is what constitutes the failure of our justice system (and yours in England too) in my opinion. It's not that the laws are weak, it's that people seem to willing to let abusers walk away without holding them acountable for their crimes. Don't get me wrong, I very strongly believe in the importance of "innocent until proven guilty", but I think that, in the case of abusers, the system has not yet learned how to appropriately deal with these monsters.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146081 - 03/19/07 12:02 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
A discussion becomes unfruitful for all, when it enters a familiar territory, when it starts resembling less of a discussion but more of a verbal war zone. Where each side tries to convince the other one so hard to give up their viewpoint, that insecurities rise up, and soon we forget that we have come here to heal ourselves and not to convince another survivor of personal viewpoint.

As always there is time to let go of a viewpoint or a discussion - when it is not longer serves the purpose of empowerment.

If it works for someone, then who I am to convince someone otherwise?

Ultimately forgives or not, like healing is between a person and his God. I don't picture any where. After all it is a personal journey for us all. We seek what we need at the moment, and we get it too. As that is what the generous Universe does, each time.

And then it comes to me, I too have taken decades to reach here. We all have to bear our cross, no consolation for any one.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146082 - 03/19/07 12:05 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
but I think that, in the case of abusers, the system has not yet learned how to appropriately deal with these monsters.


I think the justice system is doing fine. The problem is not that the system doesn't know how to deal with child molesters, it's that it is very difficult to prosecute any crime against children because of the lack of evidence that is acceptable in court. Children make poor witnesses, and psychological damage is very hard to prove in court.

That's what makes forgiveness such a necessity. We are not going to stop child molesters by tracking them down and arresting them. It simply doesn't work. We are going to stop child abuse by working towards communities where abuse doesn't occur, where children are supported and protected. And that sort of community can't exist without forgiveness and understanding.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146084 - 03/19/07 01:24 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Morning Star,

I'm saddened to hear you say that. I don't think that we're entering into unhealthy territory at all. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that any time any of us speak our minds here we are engaged in something incredibly healthy. Even if we feel the need to scream, rant, rave, or cry out in pain. It's far better for us to share these feelings here than to keep them bottled up or to let them out in other arenas where our feelings might be overwhelming to others and misinterpreted.

The success or failure of your journey will never be measured in how many people you win over to your point of view, but by how far you come in your own personal healing. I have greatly valued all of your contributions to this discussion thus far, and especially been grateful for your willingness to stand up for your beliefs in a non confrontational way.

I hope that you wil choose to continue being a part of our discussion here. You have no way of knowing just how many people your words and thoughts touch. And if someone disagrees with you, then I would encourage you to open your heart and your mind to their point of view and accept that we need not all be on the same page, but we do need to respect and support everyone's need to stand up and be heard.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146085 - 03/19/07 01:25 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
For the same reason a Peace March works far better than a March Against war.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146087 - 03/19/07 01:34 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Tartugas,

There is difference between stating my truth and trying to converting anotherís into mine. I never realized when I drifted into the latter.

Truth is always personal, so I shouldn't feel the need to convince anyone of it, as that itself creates friction.

When I try to convince someone, I am already starting on a weak footing. Why not allow someone else the same space and trust their wisdom to reach life conclusions as I have. So I needed to back out and access my own strength and need to convince. A viewpoint no matter how right or strong is just that - a viewpoint; and let's not start wars of viewpoints here. We are all here to heal and make peace, not war.

Aggression always increases aggression, no matter where we apply it, it never brings in peace and harmony.

Here, I got to test the strength of my conviction in my beliefs. If I am such a firm 'believer' why donít I rather pray for other children here. I got through it not through advice or judgment, but through prayer, and grace.

May No child remain unhealed.
May we all receive grace,
May we all be able to offer it
to those have hurt and betrayed us
in the past.
May we able to start afresh today,
and live the life choose for ourselves,
May this be our prayer everyday here.



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146088 - 03/19/07 01:49 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
This is the problem with "taking positions" in a mode of negotiations. It becomes a tug-o-war. Here, at MS, we ought not be in "negotiation mode." Rather, here at MS, let's be in learning, understanding, and consoling modes...and just know that we will have radically differing opinions on this topic and many others accociated with our CSA.

And just to throw a wrench into the works....I realized today that I can forgive my Dad for kicking the shnik out of me during those very bad years. (did I just say that out loud?)

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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