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#14662 - 04/22/06 08:48 PM NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Through links from this site I've found out about NAMBLA, mainly through http://rikijo.blogspot.com/.

I know you have the 1st ammendment in the US but how can an organisation like this be allowed to exist?!

Please let me know if I'm being ignorant of what they actually atand for but from what I've found out I'm dumbfounded!!

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14663 - 04/22/06 08:55 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark,

I'm afraid you're right. But the fact of the matter is that the First Amendment protects freedom of expression regardless of how disgusting and reprehensible it is. In the States, for example, there is also a legal Nazi Party.

I too have difficulty with NAMBLA's right to exist, but at the end of the day perhaps it's a "good" thing (I use the adjective with caution). If this group were to be banned it would simply disappear underground. As it is they blabber on and so many of them can be tracked and detected.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14664 - 04/22/06 09:00 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
But they seem to raise huge amounts of money!

I take your point though it's a good way of identifying people to avoid!

Still in shock though! It's so so wrong! I've never said this before but thank god for our tabloid press! They would roast them alive!!

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14665 - 04/22/06 09:14 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
NAMBLA is not only active in the US...they are also here in Canada and I would not be surprised if there is an equivalent group in Europe. They are advocates of the "Boy-lover" defense to pedophilia, i.e., they argue that having sex with boys is perfectly ok and natural, and that pedophilia is just another type of sexual orientation like heterosexuality or homosexuality.

I believe that in the late 1990's the FBI infiltrated the USA branch of NAMBLA, and I would be very surprised if the FBI was not monitoring them very closely today.

Another bad group are the ones who are advocating the "false memory" defence for perps. This is the theory that therapists are implanting abuse memories in victims. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few perps in those groups as well.

Personally I think the existence of all these groups means that the perps are on the defensive. Law enforcement agencies are getting better at catching them, and more kids are coming forward and ratting them out. It shouldn't be surprising that perps feel the need to get together and try to fool the public into thinking that what they are doing is normal.

That said, it also goes to show how dangerous the perps can be...groups like NAMBLA can fool people into thinking that perps are just guys with "different" preferences. If you are concerned about them, talk to your local police or if you are in the US, to the FBI. The more attention that can be brought onto these guys from law enforcement, the better.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14666 - 04/22/06 09:22 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
You've only just found out about NAMBLA? They've been around a while. NAMBLA is a group that has managed to irk just about everyone. They are especially burdensome to the gay rights movement, off whom they leech. One of their favorite slogans is "Eight is too late". Does that make you angry? I bet it does...

Still and all, just about every law enforcement agency in the US is all over NAMBLA, so don't worry about them too much. Such groups are like roaches; shine enough light on them and they scamper away.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14667 - 04/22/06 09:34 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Does it not make you wonder just who is involved in this site?
Are there a great many ppl in authority who turn a blind eye.

It must be so, sites like this are left to run, as they are the means of contact for child abusers. But authority lets them go on.
Why? Becuase even if not active, authority figures can simulate their fantasies through sites like this existing.

I guess there are plenty of links to child abuse on the site, but not sure.
These sites tend to make an issue between abuse and love of boys.

It is a twisted view, but apparently there are a whole load of them with a view that boylove is positive for boys.
Transgeneration of sex has gone on through the ages.

Society breeds abuse by social deprivation, and low income, which gives richer people the invite to divulge in perverse sex, which they find easy to do with vulnerable kids.

You only have to look at how many kids tell!
Is it not an indication of how many kids never did tell, and live a hell on earth.

If you can stomach it, go on their site, tell them it is wrong what they do, and see if they agree with you!

If goverments were intent on dealing with sites like this, then they would have dealt with it before, but dont you think that somehow authority figures are complicit with their views.

I do,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14668 - 04/22/06 09:55 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Can anyone highlight a organisation that lobbies against this group. I feel anger feel it would be better to support an organised legal group that highlights the complete manipulation and abuse their POV breeds.

To qoute someone's signature, sorry I can't remember who's exactly

"Children don't consent they conform"

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14669 - 04/22/06 11:50 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark,

While I can't say for sure, my sense of things is that NAMBLA's line is so shocking to the public that they don't find much support anyway.

The sign-off line you are thinking of is the great one Melliferal has a few posts above: "Children cannot consent; they can only comply."

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14670 - 04/23/06 12:57 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Did anyone see the film 'Swordfish'... the main point was that democracy was being saved by unusual methods! Not that I fully agreed with the context!

Is there not a bunch of rich men out there that will equally save society against these perverts?!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14671 - 04/23/06 01:36 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by mark250676:
Can anyone highlight a organisation that lobbies against this group. I feel anger feel it would be better to support an organised legal group that highlights the complete manipulation and abuse their POV breeds.
Mark
Most childrens' rights charities lobby against groups like NAMBLA, along with law enforcement organisations, public safety, etc. Also, a letter to the editor of your local paper or a magazine can't hurt. Freedom of speech works both ways; NAMBLA has the right to their opinion, and we have the right to disagree with it.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14672 - 04/23/06 01:58 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
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Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
In the UK, I believe such organisations are illegal!? Please someone tell me I am right????

Rik

*They are probaly more likely to receive lottery funding!

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14674 - 04/23/06 10:45 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
From ACLU website

'But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.'

Surely an organisation like NAMBLA makes these people feel their views are normal and as such they feel supported to carry out their perverted acts. As such of course NAMBLA have responsibility for the actions of their members if it's related to the message of the organisation.

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14675 - 04/23/06 10:53 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
If it was a political site, or a terrorist site, it would have been brought down, and every member brought to book.

That is as much as I need to think right now, but nobody can even touch them without being totally scorned and flamed, try it and see,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14676 - 04/23/06 03:39 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
ste,
What kind of replies have people got when they confront these people? Living in the UK means this organisation would be illegal if set up here. As a result I'm sure any UK members would be commiting an offence. As such I'm happy to contact the local media about them.

I am getting concerned that since finding out about this organisation I'm being more and more pre occupied about doing as much as I can, to highlight the madness of it's existance in some way.

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14677 - 04/23/06 03:50 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Just regarding the comments people have on the ACLU...remember that the ACLU is only fighting to defend NAMBLA's right to speak. They have also defended the KKK and other groups.

Also remember that the ACLU's mission is only to uphold the right to free speech; they don't care what you are saying, only that you have a right to say it. They would be as quick to defend you, should you publicly criticise NAMBLA and NAMBLA tried to use the courts or other means to shut you up.

Personally I feel that NAMBLA has every right to say what they want in public , just as I have every right to publicly warn people that NAMBLA and groups like it are evil.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14678 - 04/23/06 04:08 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Sorry to go on but...

However John Reinstein, the director of the ACLU Massachusetts, said that although NAMBLA "may extol conduct which is currently illegal", there was nothing on its website that "advocated or incited the commission of any illegal acts, including murder or rape"

In the UK an adult having a sexual relationship with a minor is rape. Is it not in the US?

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14679 - 04/23/06 04:21 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Yeah the whole "boy love" thing is annoying as well. To listen to (or read, as it were) these peoples' conversations is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, they claim to hate child abuse "in all its forms", and describe how much they feel sorry for abuse victims and want perpetrators to go to jail, and on the other hand they seem very adamant about the "fact" that if you buy a kid's trust with enough affection or material goods, it's OK to use that trust to convince them to have sex, because then it's not abuse, it's "consentual".

Oh, yes, they also seem to think that the only reason kids don't want to have sex all the time, and the only reason "some" kids feel abused after being molested, is because society has brainwashed them into thinking that sex with adults is wrong. Of course, I suppose it is much easier to blame "society" for making your rape victim a "rape victim", rather than accept responsibility for being the person who actually did the deed to begin with.

It's funny, sometimes - in a recently-referenced (in another thread) pedophile message board, somebody pointed out a post from a pedo explaining that kids' sexuality is something "sacred" and should not be spoiled for any reason whatsoever. An admirable position, I suppose - except for the fact that the post was followed by ten other posts exclaiming that the original poster was wrong. Pedos don't even like other pedos who may suggest that abuse is abuse.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14680 - 04/23/06 05:44 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
The whole ancient greek thing is a joke as well. Do they also worship Poseidon, Hera and Hephaestus?! Society has moved on from beleiving in seperate gods that control the individual elements and it's also moved on from men who can grow beards raping boys that can't!

Sex between the knee's was big in these times as well. Some how I don't think Nambla memebers are after this!

Sorry end of rant. I studied classical civilisation at school.

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14681 - 04/23/06 06:21 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
US Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales

Mr Gonzales highlighted the problem of adults preying on children in chat rooms and networking sites with the purpose of making sexual contact.

Close NAMBLA down then!

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14682 - 04/23/06 07:14 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
The fact that some old Greek pots show 40-year-old men having homosexual relationships with 20-year-old men doesn't mean that the Greeks were into molesting little boys, either. Don't try to tell that to the peds, though - those well-muscled, tall young men on the pots are supposed to represent 9-year-olds, I guess.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14683 - 04/23/06 08:02 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I just watched a program today about life in the 1800's in edinburgh.
They had boys working down the sewers cleaning them out for a penny a day.

It was filthy work, and they had to buy the torches to light down there.
Men would visit the sewers to pay the boys an extra penny for sex.

CSA has gone on for the duration of time, nobody has the will nor wit to do anything about it.
Most public toilets are closed because they have been known to harbour men who pay boys for sex.

How many were found out, NONE!

We can only keep chipping little by little, to make people understand,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14685 - 04/23/06 10:05 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I went on to that site in the 90's as I have said earlier.
Nobody can tell us who we can fantasise about is the issue on this site.

They could even quote the number of boys abused is never known, because they never thought it was abuse, but love or whatever.

I was reading of one perp who had many boys who he took on holiday, and even talked graphically about how he was accepted into the family, often holding the boy involved.

That was in front of the boys parents!
He was grooming him right in front of his parents!
They just thought he was a good friend to the little boy.

If I had a boy, and he brought a man home who was way out of his age limit, the red lights would flash onto danger.

I grew up in the 60's among flower power and free sex, just think of the hurt it did to me.
Free sex as a boy meant just that, take what you want, I will pay later.

Guess my logic was totally wrong, as a boy,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14686 - 04/24/06 12:47 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I like your post, jacobtk. NAMBLA is taking advantage of the fact that there is still not much information out there about the sexual abuse of boys in the general public. I think as the word gets out more and more about this abuse, it will become increasingly difficult for NAMBLA to get an audience other than their own membership for their twisted message.

And reality2k4, if I found a strange man trying to befriend my son who wasn't trying to befriend me at the same time, I'd make sure that man knew in no uncertain terms that he was not welcome.

I had older male friends as a boy, but they were either friends of my parents or my friends' parents. I would have zero trust for any older male showing an interest in my son who wasn't from one of either of those two groups.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14687 - 04/24/06 04:51 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
There used to be an organization online called Better A Millstone. They would report on child pornography and work toward reporting people or organizations that sponsored or supported child pornography in any way. Also the American Family Association has reported against NAMBLA in their newsletter. Better A Millstone is no longer online, not sure why.

These are the only organizations I know who reported against NAMBLA.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#14688 - 04/24/06 08:49 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
whois bless them.

Have a telephone number and address now.

Oh and a host who I'll give a ring tommorow.

Thanks for all your support.

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14689 - 04/24/06 09:15 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
The most pro-active group in the UK is phoenix survivors.
Shy Keenan digs up more dirt than a dredger floating through the sewer of life.

Guess what! Her site is constantly flamed by kiddie fiddlers, she said it, not me.
Her tireless fight has unearthed more pedo rings than all the police forces together.

That is only a figure of speech but she does blow open this whole cover up of abusers who are in authority in the UK.

NAMBLA must have protection from high up, it would never survive other than to feed the beasts who think there is nothing wrong with having sex with boys.

Abuse is probably the biggest scourge society faces, and ultimately causes massive resources on Governments throughout the world in anti social behaviour, to drugs, prostitution, even murder.

Just a footnote, but these gangs of criminals who the police are scared of, often abuse kids, and the kids are terrified to tell, because often they are manipulated into running drugs, or depending upon the gang to supply drugs.

Too terrified to tell, shut up for life, you bet!

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14690 - 04/25/06 12:02 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I agree that NAMBLA must be getting funding and support from somewhere. I also suspect that law enforcement is busily trying to get to the bottom of that support. There is no public support for pedos, and the law enforcement agencies know that their profile is improved for every pedo they catch. If it's one thing the police like, it's good publicity, so that alone should keep the NAMBLA adminstration up at night.

Also, look at the huge decision a month ago by Microsoft and the major North American banks to start working against child porn. There are some massive resources being directed at stopping these abusers.

I agree that there are probably some powerful and wealthy people behind NAMBLA, but the _really_ powerful people, at least in Canada and the US, appear to be aligning themselves against them. Our job is to make sure that the people on our side know how much we appreciate them, and also to help get the word out on child abuse.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14691 - 04/27/06 12:24 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Sadly no response from the local media yet! Do I go on the offensive and ring them?

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14692 - 04/27/06 01:01 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Sure! Call the crime editor! Call the health editor! Call the business editor and tell him about the banks going after pedophiles.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14693 - 04/27/06 08:23 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Yah know, there is such a thing as directing so much fury and energy at perps that one avoids doing the really painful work of healing oneself ...


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#14694 - 04/27/06 12:03 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Since the subject has come up, I'd just like to say that Greek homosexuality is often misunderstood. For a good accessible introduction, have a look at a book by my colleague Kenenth Dover, Greek Homosexuality. Sick groups like NAMBLA will of course take the facts and twist them however it suits them.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14695 - 04/27/06 02:08 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
A bit like a group I am trying to infiltrate at the moment. Here is a recent comment from one of their members. I hasten to add that this site I am monitering has no images on site. If they did I would not be doing what I am doing

"Paedophiles are no different to any other men. This sort of myth propogation does no good at all, much like the recent example LDD showed where The Sun/NotW used the pictures of Roy Whiting where he looks like a typical cliched child molester.

You'll be telling us paedophiles are genetically more in common with crabs next."

And this from the same poster:

"ALL men use the same tactics on their sexual prey, whatever age or sex that prey may be. There is no difference between paedophiles and whatever you call a 'normal' male.

And yes some females are the same.

Roy Whiting is not a 'typical' child abuser, is there any such thing? The point was your scum friends in the tabloids are not interested in you are any abused kids. If they were they wouldn't try to brainwash their readers into believing a stereotyped image of what a child abuser is. They would concentrate on stressing that they are no different in looks or mentality to any other person".

We really do have our work cut out for us.

The worlds gone completely off its trolley.

Kirk

"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#14696 - 04/27/06 02:16 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Kirk, I have little interest in gutter news that sell on the back of abuse.
Yes, it is a feeding frenzy with joe public seeing a stereotypical effigy.

They dont have a "cause", all they are interested in is selling their drivel to the masses.

I would suggest to all that sites like nambla will never go, they could not exist for decades without the legal know how, and finances available to keep it going.

Go figure it out,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14697 - 04/27/06 02:39 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
The perp runs this one up the flagpole:

Quote:
"ALL men use the same tactics on their sexual prey, whatever age or sex that prey may be. There is no difference between paedophiles and whatever you call a 'normal' male.
Hmmm. I see. I guess that means that all men are sexual predators? What happened to this perp's complaint about stereotypes?

It's also interesting to see that there is no difference between 1) preying on an innocent child and 2) making sexual advances to someone your own age who is equipped to handle the situation, make clear informed choices, and decide what is best for them based on adult resources and experiences. What happened to the bitter tears about false reasoning?

It's infuriating even to have to THINK about this nonsense, but the implications of not doing so are so grave.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14698 - 04/27/06 02:59 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
I agree with the perp on one point but for different reasons. The media shouldn't stereotype on image as it leads people to believe they can see perps where in reality they can look like anything. They don't all wear trench coats. They're not all old. They're not all scruffy looking etc etc.

And in response to putting efforts into digging out these perverts and exposing them. Yeah it does detract my energies from more cerebral actitvites such as councolling but at the moment it feels good! I feel worthy of standing up and saying you may have done it to me but I'm gonna do everything to limit the chances of you doing it to anyone else.

And to be honest yeah I'm annoyed at the moment. My sister is a beautiful person who has never hurt anyone. At the moment she's giving birth to her son who died yesterday after 21 weeks of her pregnancy. Bad things happen to good people. The least I can do is to make bad people have the bad things they do bite them on the arse every so often!

Rant over.

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14700 - 04/27/06 05:00 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Jacob,

Quote:
I thought boylovers were supposed to care more about the boys than they do themselves.
Isn't that the truth. Love doesn't have a thing to do with exploitation of the innocence and trust that another person has because he is so much younger. That exploitation is, in fact the very essence of abuse.

It occurs to me that both love and abuse are about power. To love is to use one's power to nurture and protect for the other one's benefit, even at the expense of one's own. To abuse is to use one's power to exploit and harm for the benefit of oneself, even at the expense of the other's.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14701 - 04/27/06 07:47 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Quote:


It's infuriating even to have to THINK about this nonsense, but the implications of not doing so are so grave.

Larry [/QB]
Thats exactly the problem Larry the people in power look upon this sort of garbage as just that ... garbage, not understanding that some people actually believe it.

And with people just disragarding it as twaddle gives the authours more credibility because no one in power does anything about it ... Whats the old saying:

"All it takes for evil to continue is for good men to stand by and do nothing".

How very apt

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#14702 - 04/27/06 08:06 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Kirk I don't think you are giving the people in power much credit. They have every reason to go after NAMBLA. Supporting pedophile organisations does not earn you votes. Closing them down does.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14704 - 04/27/06 09:55 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Stereo-typical images of paedophiles!

The three friends that wrote supportive statements for me, prior to going to court (they stated how my character had changed since speaking up to them) all had images in their minds of what the perv would look like!

They all expected to see some grubby little old man...what they actually saw in court was a bloke that really just looked like any other typical 69 year old! They wouldn't have picked him out from a group of 10 men of a similar age as the one that was the perv! They would have expected someone that was overweight, wearing thick glasses and with grubby stained clothes!

He really could have just been anybody!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14705 - 04/27/06 11:09 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Let's expose it then!

You put nambla into google and they come out as number 1. Surely we've got enough knowledge on this site to change that with another site saying what they are really about?

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14706 - 04/28/06 05:25 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Since I really didn't know anything at all about NAMBLA before this thread got going, I thought maybe I should become better informed. I found an interesting and very detailed entry on the group in the Wikipedia, and you can read it at this address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA.

One interesting thing that I picked up on is the judgment (by whoever wrote the article) that "More recently, media reports have suggested that for practical purposes the group no longer exists and that it consists only of a web site maintained by a few enthusiasts."

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14707 - 04/28/06 05:46 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
This is even funny, cartman joins nambla.
Read it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman_joins_NAMBLA

ste

This is what it stands for;

National Association of Marlon Brando Look Alikes

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14708 - 04/28/06 06:24 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
I saw the south park episode some time ago and never got the link.

I also read the wikipedia entry. But the more and more you look into it it becomes apparant that NAMBLA is still very much alive and active. The FBI appear to be tracking them which can only help.

The member I've tracked done also runs a buisness which promotes itself as a 'family site' where people of all ages can come and talk and ask for advice. He's amde the classic mistake of choosing one login name and using it so it's easy to track his posts on other forums. Sadly it appears he uses these forums to groom and gain trust as well. I'm very tempted to post the info but I don't think this is the right site to do it on. I would also never want to risk putting this site in any legal danger either.

It's just a case of finding the right way to bring it to others attention and reduce the risk. He still shows patterns of offending and admits to using 40 years of youth work to get close to boys and 'feel' their love. Oh theirs that word again 'Love' I couldn't think of anything fruther from Love!!

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14709 - 04/28/06 08:33 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Mark,

there is a place to report suspicious sites, cannot remember the name.
You need concrete evidence to nab them, they can pretty much say what they like unless they act on what they say.

N****A must have millions of members worldwide, unless it is now used as a smokescreen for other seedy sites.

Perps are pretty good at networking, and somehow are pretty crafty on being detected.
They must have spent their whole lives working at being so f*cking perfect at evasion.

Just like we spend ours learning to survive,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#14710 - 04/29/06 12:25 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by reality2k4:
Mark,

there is a place to report suspicious sites, cannot remember the name.

ste
It's the CyberTipLine, run by the Centre for Missing and Exploited Children. Check out the rest of the site while you are there, you might not know it, but these people are working miracles on a daily basis. We survivors owe a debt of gratitude to them.

http://www.missingkids.com/cybertip/

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14711 - 04/29/06 05:14 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
BrianW Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 3
Loc: US
I actually infiltrated NAMBLA in the early 90's and got on their "steering committee" hoping to get some inside info to turn every one of those sick f*ckers in and found they were mostly a bunch of fat, pathetic old f*gs screaming about "youth rights" and the other half slobbering f*cks just looking for "boy pics" (*vomit*). Back in their peak in the 80's they consisted of only around 8 creeps, now they probably consist of a sole guy who's counting down his days until the police come. Count them dead.

And that "Better A Millstone" group that Texan mentioned was run by Mike Echols who was the author of "My First Name is Steven," a lurid exploitive book about the abuse of a young boy that was made into a TV movie, then later he wrote another sexually explicit book about a priest that molested a couple brothers. He put up a website with kiddie porn on it then ended up dying in prison after he was arrested for a sex offense. Just google Mike Echols Died for more of that fat sicko.


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#14712 - 04/29/06 08:33 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Once a few years ago, I attempted to read "My First Name Is Steven", as I was into "true crime" books at the time. I didn't even make it a quarter of the way through; I found the de>
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14713 - 04/29/06 10:12 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I've been following the link Mark posted for some time now, and I think this guy and others like him ( follow some of his links ) are genuinly 'on the case'.

But are they effective? how many people stumble across his blog, and how many of them are sufficiently affected or moved to actually get off their butts and do something?
Sadly, by the very nature of blogs, it's probably very inneffective, but we have no idea of course of any other actions that the blogger is taking.

I don't doubt for one minute that various police and internal security services are sitting on NAMBLA and other similar organizations waiting for them to make an illegal move.
But they are very clever, something we know only too well, and they know exactly how much to give away in the public gaze of a 'forum' - they make themselves known to each other then move on make contact via private methods.
To gain access to child porn sites you have to stump up some pictures before you gain access, that way they know you are 'one of them', which makes infiltration virtually impossible.
And don't forget that they are desperate people who will defend their 'secret' at all costs. Some of them will be sad old bastards, but others could be crazy f*****s with the means of tracing people who threaten their freedom.

The only methods left to people like us who want to see them closed down, and rotting in hell, is the legal route.
And although it will be frustrating and slow, it will most likely be the most effective way.
For every molester that's caught legally the police get another piece of the jigsaw, they get the molesters computer and trace the contacts etc.
Slowly, the big picture falls into place.

As for NAMBLA's 'rights to free speech'? well, I have to say that I can't argue with that.
I think that UK and US laws are quite similar in many respects regarding freedom of speech.
But recently UK laws have changed, and it's now illegal to promote terrorism and racial / religious hatred. We had Islamic Mullahs standing on our streets glorifying 9/11 and the London tube bombings, and inciting more terrorist acts.
The law has changed and it's stopped. Or has it?

The majority of decent law abiding people are rightly enraged at the minority who promote terrorism, racial hatred or child abuse, and will on the face of it welcome changes in the law that stops it.
But does it drive these hate crime promoters deeper underground? I think so.

Personally I don't give a shit about NAMBLA, yes, their views are offensive and indefensible, but the more they shout the more decent people will hear them. And decent people will win through.
The molesters are a tiny minority of people, and they will find each other, and victims, whatever laws are passed to make life harder for them.
There's a saying often used in celebrity circles that "no publicity is bad publicity". But it is for NAMBLA, their own distorted and irrational views are so at odds with decent peoples views that they shoot themselves in the foot, it's just a pity they don't shoot themselves in the head!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14714 - 04/29/06 10:24 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Another point to remember-

If you are thinking of 'researching' NAMBLA, or any similar sites then remember that law enforcment agencies are constantly monitoring traffic to these sites.

If you visit them then the alarm bells ring and you might get a visit from the law.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#14715 - 04/29/06 10:46 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#14716 - 04/30/06 12:05 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:

To gain access to child porn sites you have to stump up some pictures before you gain access, that way they know you are 'one of them', which makes infiltration virtually impossible.
This is true; the only way law enforcement is able to extinguish such groups is to use the account of an already-established "member" who just happened to be caught doing something else. That happens rarely; the "system" is really effective. There is a myth - a favorite of pedos - which claims that law enforcement agencies are the largest "sellers and distributors" of child pornography". While most websites offering to SELL "kiddy porn" are run by LEOs, no material is actually traded. In truth, law enforcement can't -send- child porn to anyone for any reason at all. The more intelligent pedos know this, and use it to protect themselves.

Far easier is going after the uncautious pervs who use those illegal music-downloading programs. The file-trading networks aren't as anonymous as some people think, and the FBI has managed to convict a few people this way ( "Operation Peer Pressure" )

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14719 - 04/30/06 06:21 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave,

You make my May Day weekend with this one my friend:

Quote:
But it is for NAMBLA, their own distorted and irrational views are so at odds with decent peoples views that they shoot themselves in the foot, it's just a pity they don't shoot themselves in the head!
Like your energy and commitment, your unfailing wit never seems to stop shining through.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14720 - 04/30/06 06:44 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave,

researching sites like those would just make me feel like vomiting.

The last time I got the guts to see what they stood for was in early 90s.
They were openly talking about flying to London to meet up because the kids are so cute!

It is an addiction, and they are highly organied worldwide.
Nobody can ever make them think they are doing wrong, dont even try.

When they do get caught, they play the victim role to get out of it, and sometimes it even works,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#14721 - 04/30/06 09:57 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Dave,

Awesome post. I agree. I can't say that I like the fact that NAMBLA is allowed to get their message out, but I have enough faith in people to know that very few people will be fooled by their twisted justifications. People know in their gut that manipulating and sexually assaulting children is wrong, and I think they will be revolted when they become aware of NAMBLA.

What I don't get is why does NAMBLA make any of its doings public? How deluded are these people?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

Top
#14722 - 04/30/06 10:18 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Guess what!!!

The site is protected by 'LAW'.

Then think???
Who? Makes the laws.

Then think, Who? protects them from litigation.

Then think, how up does protection figure in todays society when a site like this cannot be legislated against.

Come on, spell the TRUTH!

Dont play chess with them,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#14723 - 05/01/06 05:53 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Well reality, it pains me to say it, but the people who made the laws which protect sites like this are Jefferson, Adams, Madison, and the other colonists who drafted the first Amendments to the US Constitution. Of course, those nice people hadn't envisioned the internet or groups like NAMBLA; however, the laws they made still cover them. The First Amendment protects websites which advocate pedophilia, white supremacy, homophobia, fundamentalist hate-mongering, and all manner for horribleness, so long as those websites don't incite a specific crime. For all its sickness, NAMBLA's claiming that "boy love" should be acceptable just isn't yet over the "advocating something illegal" line.

Now that I've by some ridiculous twist of fate somehow found myself "defending" this group, I need to go scrub my eyes with steel wool. Meanwhile, I think freedom of speech is important enough, that it's worth putting up with groups like NAMBLA if it means that once-unpopular but truly great notions like civil rights are able to find light through such freedom.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14724 - 05/01/06 03:00 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14725 - 05/01/06 04:18 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal, Nobby,

I don't think you are defending NAMBLA. You are defending the right of free speech that a free and democratic society - however imperfect - depends on for survival. The sad fact is that not all of society will use that right responsibly. NAMBLA is just one of many examples of how sick that irresponsibility can get.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14726 - 05/01/06 09:08 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Never said I was defending them, and for the record, I will use my freedom of speech to say that I think NAMBLA is a bunch of sick, twisted, evil, disgusting, repulsive, bottom-feeding, cowardly, pathetic, worthless, slimy, smelly, and stupid pedophiles, who are trying to use the semblance of a lobby group to convince the public that they are not a bunch of child-molesting criminals.

I think that in the public's eye, NAMBLA will become about as credible as the KKK, just a bunch of stupid, misguided people trying to get others to believe their lies.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14727 - 05/01/06 09:26 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think that yes the site is sick, and yes, I had no dialogue with them, because I already know what they are going to say.

I for one dont want to hear what they want to say nor think.
It is sick when academics make stupid thesis which are immediately looked on as ground breaking thesis.

Have they ever taken into account the stories of abused kids.
NO!
So they marry the concept that it is OK to have 'consensual' sex with a child.

There is a hidden but strong lobby in the UK for lowering the age of consent of children.
That falls right into the perps hands, Oh, I thought he/she was older!

Believe me, I could not really guess a childs age, they are all different sizes growing up I guess.

That is not the real point, it is how old a child is emotionally to engage in sex that they choose to engage in, and not what an adult chooses for the child to make a sexual relationship with.

I cannot fathom out, how any child would want to fancy an old man or woman, other than the peer pressure.

Taken aside, these fanciful thoughts are nothing but normal childish thoughts, and ones which responsible adults should never be drawn into.
Infatuation by a child is because they want to be like you, not part of you.

They invite you into their world as friends, not lovers, guess that sounds right,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#14728 - 05/01/06 11:55 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Anyone claiming 'consensual' sex with a child in any country/state where that child is legally under the age of consent, looses the argument immediately! A child that is deemed too young to give consent, cannot have consensual sex with anyone!

I think that it is time to put the age of consent up, rather than accepting liberal attititudes that it should be lowered!

Look at the posts that have appeared here....many of us were way under the age of consent when abused, however, I have also noticed from time to time, we get posts along the line of 'was I too old to be abused'.

I was sexualised, before I knew what sex was! If anyone deems that you have consented to anything that you do not fully understand, then you have not consented!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14729 - 05/02/06 12:14 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
A while back I was looking into the way that the groups such as NAMBLA used supposedly respectable and accurate studies to justify their beliefs, and I had to agree with the widely held view that these groups are VERY selective in what they put forward, obviously in an effort to gain respectability.

I have only looked quickly at these two links, and be warned one of them has views that you will find distasteful at the very least, but they are both putting forward the views of one 'researcher' - who's qualifications are possibly unknown, who's research is possibly unverified? I didn't have time to look and search that deeply.

But what is obvious is that the one site, pro-pedo, is selective in what it quotes.

We should never be in any doubt that this level of 'organized pedo' is out to create a respectable illusion surrounding their views.

Here's the links, but take care with them, one for certain will make you very angry.

Dave

http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/

http://paedosexualitaet.de/lib/Sandfort1994.html

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14730 - 05/02/06 05:27 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
NAMBLA, in my opinion, represents a segment of the perv population which I'll call the "smooth operators". Rather than impulsively kidnapping a raping, or using threats of violence to ensure silence, these clever pervs carefully manipulate the victim into thinking he (the victim) actually wants to protect the perpetrator. These individuals are fortunate, in a macabre way. Their targets are children who are too young to understand sex and its implications; such people are easy to mold. Children are not born with a concept of the boundaries that we as a society place on sex. It is the focus of the whole idea of "grooming" for a pedophile to earn a kid's absolute trust, and then use that trust as a tool to exploit a kid's ignorance and thrust a deviate conception of sexuality into the kid's mind before he has a clear understanding of those societal boundaries. The victim knows nothing about sex, but also knows that the perpetrator is "loving and trustworthy", and therefore buys into the deviate concept the perpetrator offers. The pedophile then creates a self-perpetuating delusion by using the child's "okay, whatever you say" compliance as proof of "consent" - that the kid really "wants" the abuse. Worse, the "consent" also comes with a sort of "collaboration". The pedo instructs the child as to what he should be "feeling"; once the suggestion takes root, the pedo then explains to the child that these "natural feelings" (which were planted by the perpetrator to begin with) are looked down upon by the rest of society, and that strict silence is required for the well-being of both individuals. As long as the perpetrator can reinforce the child's unquestioning trust - and prevent the child from developing an understanding of societal norms regarding sexuality - the victim's silence is assured.

But despite what the pedophiles try to say, this "consent" is by no means informed. They commit the same crime committed by those who defraud the elderly out of financial and real assets by tricking them to sign releases and powers-of-attorney. Those people also have "proof of consent" - in the form of the victim's signature on legal documents - but of course, those elderly folks really had no idea what they were signing. With children, it's the same way. They know nothing about sex, they're spoon-fed misinformation about it, and convinced that it's something they really want; they fall for the trick and go along with the abuse thinking for all the world that they're willing participants, or even instigators, in the activities which they were all along directed into by their abusers. That's exactly what happened to me.

Think of the implications of allowing an adult to have sex with a "willing" ten-year-old, for example. Suppose that, a few years later, that now-young-adult considers the events of the past and realizes that his "consent" was bought or manipulated, and that he was abused, which leads to intense emotional distress. Does such a person have an avenue of redress? Or is he, since he said "yes" at the time and didn't decide until several years later that he should've (and would've) said "no", simply out of luck? "Sorry you were tricked, but yes is yes". Or worse, will the victim be accused of becoming some type of perpetrator? "The sex was consentual and you had no problem with it, and now you're just trying to get rich at the expense of your former 'partner'!" Does anybody see the problems that could arise? I'm willing to bet that not even the NAMBLA folks have thought that far enough ahead.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14731 - 05/02/06 08:24 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianW:
... they were mostly a bunch of fat, pathetic old f*gs ...
Must you use the term "fag" when describing NAMBLA ? It's been clearly established that normal, natural homosexuality is NOT THE SAME THING as pedophilia.

There are plenty of male survivors who just happen to be gay, and we're burdened with the extra task of separating our innate sexuality from our abuse. NAMBLA is certainly deserving of your righteous rage, but gay male survivors are not.

BTW, I just came back from the MaleSurvivor Weekend of Recovery held at Simpsonwood, where we divided up into small groups of 7-8 men to do most of the work. My group had two gay men (including myself), a third man unsure of his orientation, and 4 totally straight men. I can assure you that my straight brothers respect me as a man and would never stoop to calling me - or any other gay man - a "fag".

I expect the same from you.


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#14732 - 05/02/06 08:36 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rik,

Thanks for this one:

Quote:
I was sexualised, before I knew what sex was! If anyone deems that you have consented to anything that you do not fully understand, then you have not consented!
I was abused starting at age 11, and I didn't know that what was being done to me was sex. I thought sex was about Mommy and Daddy making babies, and what the abuser was doing (and making me do) clearly wasn't that.

I used to feel very stupid about my "ignorance", but now I realize I was just very very innocent. I had a right to that innocence.

On consent, the phrase I have always liked is this one: "If a kid doesn't KNOW he has a choice, then he doesn't HAVE a choice."

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14733 - 05/02/06 08:38 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Nobby,

Quote:
for the record, I will use my freedom of speech to say that I think NAMBLA is a bunch of sick, twisted, evil, disgusting, repulsive, bottom-feeding, cowardly, pathetic, worthless, slimy, smelly, and stupid pedophiles, who are trying to use the semblance of a lobby group to convince the public that they are not a bunch of child-molesting criminals.
Hmmmm. I think that about covers it!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14734 - 05/02/06 02:51 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Whilst researching the group, careful not to go on any of their sites, by reading of others expereinces, knowledge and campaigns I stumbled across a site that made me even madder.

Although they were campaigning against nambla, this right wing christian group, was trying to say it was all a result of societies 'acceptance' of homosexuality! As far as I'm concerned the abusers sexuality has very very little to do with act of sbuse. As has been said many a time the act isn't about sex it's about the taking of power and the destruction of innocence and trust!

To use NAMBLA to victimise other unrelated groups is just wrong and shifts the focus of where this anger should be directed ie at NAMBLA, it's members and their crimes.

I've managed to build an online profile of one of the nambla members in the UK. Although he proudly admits to working with children for 40 years to gain their trust the local media appear to have no interest?! When I'm ready I'll take the next step.

Mark

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14735 - 05/02/06 02:52 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by melliferal:
Think of the implications of allowing an adult to have sex with a "willing" ten-year-old, for example. Suppose that, a few years later, that now-young-adult considers the events of the past and realizes that his "consent" was bought or manipulated, and that he was abused, which leads to intense emotional distress. Does such a person have an avenue of redress? Or is he, since he said "yes" at the time and didn't decide until several years later that he should've (and would've) said "no", simply out of luck? "Sorry you were tricked, but yes is yes". Or worse, will the victim be accused of becoming some type of perpetrator? "The sex was consentual and you had no problem with it, and now you're just trying to get rich at the expense of your former 'partner'!" Does anybody see the problems that could arise? I'm willing to bet that not even the NAMBLA folks have thought that far enough ahead.
In this case I would turn to contract law for guidance. Under Common law, contracts signed under duress are difficult to uphold. In this case you have an implicit verbal "agreement" between a pedo and a child, in which the child consents to sex. Ignoring for a moment that under common law children cannot enter into contracts, and that contracts for sex are illegal in most jurisdictions, I think any lawyer worth his salt could successfully argue that a such a contract, where one party is under duress, is not valid. So the pedos try to "hide" the duress by controlling the child to make them appear compliant with the abuse.

You asked what happens when the child later understands that they were under duress...I think that the answer is simple. Like the seniors buying aluminum siding, the law provides a framework in which such contracts are invalid, and the perpetrators are guilty of fraud. I wonder if law enforcement is getting wiser to the practise of grooming? If so, pedos will be finding themselves high and dry when the courts find them guilty of using duress.

I think sophisticated pedos such as the NAMBLA crowd try to mitigate the risk of children coming forward by putting a lot of effort into the grooming and threats. However, if law enforcement and the Courts become more aware of the practise of grooming and use the much more powerful psychological tools and expertise that exist today, I think it will eventually become much harder for pedos to successfully groom a child to become silent.

Has NAMBLA thought this far ahead? I don't know. I doubt that the pedos have the resources that the "good guys" now have, so I think that the pedos are probably fighting a rearguard action against law enforcement. I wonder if the practise of grooming might go out of fashion? If it does, what does this mean for organised pedophiles? I think the answer is in front of us. Pedos are now travelling to other countries to exploit children who do not have the protection of sophisticated law enforcement and common law. I wonder if NAMBLA might become a highly-specialised travel agency?

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14736 - 05/02/06 03:45 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Butterfly kisses?!

The female version of NAMBLA?

Think I'm going to sit down in a dark room and just take it all in for a bit. I so hope this is a hoax but sadly I don't think it is.

You shouldn't have rights if you can't understand the responsibilities. If you advocate illegal sexual relationships then you are guilty of any crimes linked to that advocacy! Much like looking at child porn images. You create the market by buying the images.

As a kid I didn't stand a chance when I was exposed to the predators that inhabit these groups!

_________________________
Survivor and fighter!

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#14737 - 05/02/06 03:56 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave,

sorry but cannot get my head around the bottom link posted, so I am not going to the first one.

What a load of crap, who did this goon interview for this data?
Must have been a poll on nambla,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14738 - 05/04/06 12:22 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ste
those two links contain the 'work' of one man.

One link is the full study as published, and the other is the 'selected highlights' as presented by a boylovers site.

I have no idea at all if the man who wrote the study is a genuine academic, or if he's a charalatan. I don't know. But the research paper is out there for all to read with some degree of authenticity, which seems good when you read his profile

http://www.hivcenternyc.org/people/theosandfort.html

The other site however selects parts of Sandford's work that suits their argument, the one that they claim makes it alright for adults to have 'loving and sexual relationships with boys'

It's difficult to say exactly who they are aiming their selective views at though?
If they are trying to convince the huge majority of people that are rightly horrified at child abuse then I don't think any amount of massaging the facts will make a great deal of difference, most people would read this stuff and still stick to their original view that sex with kids is still wrong.

My view is that they are preaching to the converted, other ( and potential ) abusers who seek self justification for what they either do, or plan to do.

There's a cycle that everyone goes through when we set out to do something that is outside our normal behaviour, and it doesn't matter if it's illegal, dangerous or just something right outside of our normal lives. Part of that cycle is 'justifying' to ourselves the need to do whatever it is.
And that's what dressing up sexual abuse in distorted, selective and often pseudo-scientific terms is - it's the guilty giving themselves permission.

The problem is that they have a reason to do it, a big and overwhelming reason, and the rest of us haven't got as much reason, or at least resourses, to plough through all their shit and refute it.
It's like arguing with the crazy guy ranting on a street corner, you can't argue with a sick mind.

But do we try? I guess we must.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14739 - 05/04/06 09:34 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave,

tch,tch, he is a psychiatrist yuck.
So if one of us came to him, he would prefer to say you liked what happened!

I for one, have never read about any instance of positive sexual relationships between adults and children, so God knows where he got his data sample from.

I do however remember the infatuation a child can feel over adults they meet.
Crossing the line within the trust of an adult over a child is totally wrong.

I have to be sure in my mind that people think that somehow children are complicit in what happens to them, hence the survivor feeling like they are somehow seen as guilty within society.

That is one thing that keeps us silent, not achademic clap trap,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14740 - 05/04/06 06:36 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I think we need to realize that science and scholarship can always be twisted and distorted for the sake of vested interest. History is full of examples: imperialism, nationalism, racism, slavery, gender issues, the Holocaust.

All you need for this is a scholar who is more interested in his bank account and personal advancement than he is in the truth. And that type, sad to say, is all too easy to find.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14741 - 05/05/06 12:07 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Which brings us to this piece -

http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/bauserman_objectivity.htm

where the acedemics disagree with each other!

"We" know that our experiences were bad for us, we wouldn't be here if they weren't, and most of us have a lot of faith in counselling and therapy which are products of the world of psychology ( broadly speaking )

But we also know that each person is an individual and 'works' differently.
Some psychological theories will be proven in nearly everyone, the basic stuff. But I think that once it gets into the realms of finding clear behavioural traits in relativly small numbers of people with a particular problem or set of influences accuracy is just about impossible.

With the study I mentioned above I don't think it's worth the paper it's written on.
Of course there are boys who enjoy their relationships with men, however much we might disagree.
But can it be quantified in a meaningful way? I don't think so because it's a snapshot in time and can't possibly take into account the future feelings and behaviours of the boy.

But it's pedalled around as 'scientific data' and then selectivly used by the creeps at NAMBLA and the like.
It might be researched well, it might be accurate as far as it goes, but is it meaningful?

And we can also fall into the trap of accepting scientific data that suits our position just as easily, when I believe we should be working with the data we know best - the stuff inside our own heads!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14742 - 05/05/06 11:18 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I dont think it is about what academics think in a world they have no contact with.
The big trouble is those who believe this crap, an believe me there are many who do.

There are many brilliant academics, but unfortunately the state pays others to produce this utter garbage, but yes, this stuff is taken 'as gospel' by the public.

I often thought there must be some positivity among some boys who had gay feelings towards older men, hence the large number who do not seek help, or think they were the guilty partner.

You only have to see the way judges rule against perps who have been abusing the same boy for years, and somehow the judge rules teh boy to be complicit.

Judges need to be taught a few base facts, that the age of consent does not give a child any consent in abuse.
No matter what the judge thinks, nor academia,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14743 - 05/06/06 12:43 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mark's original post was about NAMBLA and why they are allowed to exist in a society that makes child abuse both illegal and abhorent, a good question that has raised so many interesting issues in this long topic. But has Marc's question been answered?

I know that I can't fully answer it, not even to myself. So I have no chance of 'answering' the question to anyone else.
All I can do when I see the crap that NAMBLA put out is force myself to accept that 'I' have very little influence or power to change the way pedo's and their groups think and act. And I don't think that genuine efforts by the like of 'rikijo' in his blog are going to make a huge difference either - not on their own. I wouldn't for one moment argue against them, and indeed I would support them as much as possible, but in the end I don't think that they are much more than a thorn in the sides of the pedo's and NAMBLA.

I think the way forward is for guys like us to shake off the shame and guilt of the abuse we lived through, and I deliberately didn't say "our guilt and shame" because it isn't our's, it belongs to our abusers.
Let's lose it, let's place it squarely where it belongs with the abusers, and in so doing I believe we become more comfortable with our pasts, and the abuse becomes easier to talk about. Once we start talking - people will realise the scale and magnitude of the problem, and the risk posed to their children.

Once CSA becomes a hot topic, and guys like us stand proud as the men we are, then normal, decent people will see the truth of what actually happens to sexually abused kids as they grow up, and that will shock most people.

Most unaffected people live in ignorance of the serious effects of CSA, and that isn't their fault because it's something that should be outside of everyones experiences.
So where do people learn about the effects of CSA? At the moment it seems to be from lurid stories in the media and misinformation and rumours. How often do we hear the lie that abused boys become abusers? It still gets peddaled as 'truth' and we KNOW it isn't.
Can 'we' do a better job? "Yes, we can".

So, has NAMBLA stolen a lead in the media war?
They come along with their pseudo-scientific theories, their selectivly chosen papers, and a veneer of 'respectability'. If you read through their site( and other similar sites ) they portray the image of respectable men in love with boys and not window licking madmen who lurk in the bushes after dark. The truth probably lies somewhere inbetween, but wherever it lies it's every parents nightmare. NAMBLA dresses up the nightmare as a pleasent dream!

I think the evidence is actually on our side, at least the respected evidence. But somehow we've found ourselves on the defencive against them.
That's understandable in many respects because so many of us carry the shame and guilt and need all our reserves to shake them off and recover, and some of us are simply not in a position to get out there and raise hell against NAMBLA, or have the time to forward the positive aspects of the survivors movement.

NAMBLA is a well organised movement that has every chance of raising its profile and gaining respectability, possibly child sex will become acceptable? maybe not in my lifetime but the acceptance of different lifestyles has happened in my 52 years, I sometimes dread to think what is possible in the next half century.

MS and all the other survivors groups and organisations do a terrific job of raising awareness of survivrs issues, but we are by nature generally quiet about 'ourselves' and the problems we face. Maybe we need to raise our profile and stand proud, make people listen to 'US' as survivors?

NAMBLA are doing just that, they are very active and should never be underestimated.
I said earlier "I don't give a shit about NAMBLA" and I don't, let them carry on and spread their vile rubbish, eventually they will shoot themselves in the head.

I think that our role needs to be one of proving ourselves as survivors.
If we heal and speak out, make people aware of OUR side of the sordid story and demonstrate that abuse has serious effects, and that we can recover from them then we will overcome the likes of NAMBLA.
We have a lot going for us, not only the law but the moral high ground as well, so why waste the effort in fighting NAMBLA directly when we can mobilise the allies, the normal decent folk out there, far easier?

There's strength in numbers.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14744 - 05/06/06 01:00 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
That's exactly why I still have the bit between my teeth with regard to all paedophiles!

NAMBLA are not 'boy lovers', they are 'boy haters' - anyone that loves you would not do anything to destroy your mind!

That is why I still cannot believe that James Fowler walked out of court as 'An elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions'.

That is why, I cannot let it 'lie'.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14745 - 05/06/06 01:12 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
So what do we do next? I for one am considering a suggestion by my therapist that I join a group of rape survivors (female and male) that speaks to police organisations, child welfare workers, etc.

I am also hoping to be able to do some volunteer work with other male victims, although there are few organisations that do this.

The best weapon against misinformation is information itself. NAMBLA's strength is that it has the wherewithal to make itself sound legitimate. There is no reason why survivors cannot contact leading academics and lobby for "our" side. I'm willing to bet that the mainstream medical/psychological community is not bought into NAMBLA's lies, so maybe they can start sending out some good information.

And finally, for every NAMBLA, we must also remember that there is the Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, Childfind, Cyber Angels, the United Way, the law enforcement lobby groups, parents' groups, the parents' _media_ (all those pregnancy and parenting magazines), childrens' advertisers and any other number of groups who are interested in childrens' welfare. (edit: And of course Malesurvivor.org ;\) )

If these groups aren't aware of NAMBLA I would be very surprised, but I would bet a donut that any of them would be very interested in hearing from victims of CSA. Personally I think we owe it to ourselves as survivors and to those poor kids who are still getting molested to get the word out as loudly and clearly as we can. A campaign of whispers to the right people can undo the flimsy lies that the pedos have strung up to justify their perversion.

And if you are not able to speak out, then let your actions speak for you. Volunteer with kids. Big Brothers is a great charity and one of the best ways to protect vulnerable boys from pedos. The YMCA is another. By your actions and care for children you will help fight the battle.

Remember, you are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14746 - 05/07/06 01:06 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Rik
I agree entirely, from our perspective they are 'boy haters'. From theirs 'lovers'.

But where does the mass of public opinion lie?
My guess is that they don't think about - they don't NEED to think about it - enough to have a properly formed opinion.
I guess the masses are more our side than theirs, but survivors just don't have the publicity in place to raise awareness.

Nobby
I couldn't agree more, we need to get out there and show the world that we're normal, ok, guys.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14748 - 05/08/06 02:40 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I agree with the lot of you. NAMBLA and similar pro-pedophile groups like to portray their enemies as faceless, out-of-touch Gestapo ultra-Victorian creeps who disapprove of pedophilia because they are really anti-youth, or anti-sex, for various political or religious reasons. They conveniently forget to mention abuse victims who may disapprove of pedophilia.

I think it's time we made our voices heard. We don't support pedophilia - not because we're feminists, or Christian fundamentalists, or politico vote-hunters; but because we've been there, and know as nobody else can know the devastation these people can leave behind. Pedophiles claim to love children, and they use every chance they get to try and portray themselves as good people, able to empathise with children, and against "real abuse". Other people oppose them from some platform, or because of what they've read in a book or seen on TV - and often, their information is exaggerated, or misrepresented, or just plain incorrect - making it easy for the pedos to meet their arguments. If one or two of those anti-pedos claims to have been an abuse victim, even then the pedos can meet them - "one or two bad experiences" doesn't mean ALL pedophiles are evil, right?

We, as survivors, oppose pedophiles because we actually know better, having the dubious benefit of personal experience. All the rationalization in the world would not be able to stand up against the voices of our collective experience. We need to stop being mere and occasional "poster children" for non-survivor anti-pedo movements and start becoming our own force of resistance. Alone, we are only fingers - but together, we are a FIST!

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#14749 - 05/08/06 05:26 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I like Melliferal's image:

Quote:
Alone, we are only fingers - but together, we are a FIST!
I absolutely agree, but is NAMBLA even a worthwhile target anymore? As I said earlier in this thread, what I read is that the organization is pretty much moribund now.

Is it worth devoting resources to a little website run by a few pervs, however shocking and disgusting their message, when there are large and active pedophile rings all over the world?

I rather get the idea that for once things have already gone our way. It looks to me like investigations, police arrests and surveillance, and general outrage have already more or less smothered NAMBLA. Does anyone know for sure - or at least have a general idea - whether they are still active, and if so, how much of a threat they are?

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#14750 - 05/08/06 06:38 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I believe the FBI is happily using NAMBLA as a way to catch perps, but at least a year ago it looks like they were active.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050217-2208-manboy-daily.html

Although to answer your question, Larry, I will ask another. Ever try to get dandelions out of a lawn? You chop off the tops but the roots go really deep. Yes, it appears that NAMBLA is gone, but I think the roots are much deeper. However, I agree with you. With new technology and much better training our defenders are slowly but surely rounding up the perps.

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#14751 - 05/08/06 07:07 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Nambla gets hot, so the ones with a little bit or grey matter get out.
They start something else, or worse, they go underground sending emails etc.

If the perp is known to the cops, his email can be captured and the pedo ring gets smashed.
They have ingenious ways of finding new ideas to hide from authorities.

As we have seen on so many occasions, that perps go for decades without being detected.
How many lives they kill off is unimaginable.

Governments want to work out just how much these perps cost society, they do know, but are terrified of admitting it to the public for fear of blowing up a frenzy.

That is why most of it is covered up,

ste

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#14752 - 05/08/06 11:52 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
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MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
NAMBLA might be the spent force they appear to be, the perp's are still out there and organized and NAMBLA 'might' be projecting the image they want to portray to the world?

I know from searching arount the internet that there are many 'boylovers' sites out there. ( I NEVER LOOK AT THE ACTUAL SITES ! )
Type the right words into Google and hundreds of pages appear, the perps are STILL out there.

Quote:
Other people oppose them from some platform, or because of what they've read in a book or seen on TV - and often, their information is exaggerated, or misrepresented, or just plain incorrect - making it easy for the pedos to meet their arguments.
Mell'
this is our audience, these are the people we need to reach out to and give the real, correct, information to.

The media, especially the tabloid end of the media, still focus on the more sensational stories of child kidnaps, rapes and attacks.
It's right that they are reported, but these kind of attacks are generally attacks by strangers.
As horrific as they are, they are less common than the 'trusted person' abuse and attacks.

But the headlines aren't as emotive are they?

So what impression do most people have of sex abusers? It's still the dirty old man lurking in the bushes, and we know that isn't always the case.

Dave

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Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
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#14753 - 05/09/06 05:13 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Is NAMBLA a worthwhile target? Absolutely. I'll explain why in a bit. But first, I do want to emphasize that NAMBLA is also a valuable resource for law enforcement. Here's how it works:

1) A law enforcement agent, or a neutral party with intent to inform, joins NAMBLA and attends meetings and conventions,

2) Other NAMBLA members who happen to be involved in illegal activity contact the mole, who plays along long enough to get some names, dates, and locations,

3) Law enforcement moves in on the illegal activity; the mole disappears, and another one is planted.

NAMBLA's networking characteristics make it a great information mine, because people involved in illegal activity also use the group to find clients, friends, and like-minded people. So the fact that NAMBLA exists is, paradoxically, a great help to us.

Meanwhile, NAMBLA keeps on keepin' on, insisting that something which is illegal should be made legal. To make their case, they have a specific set of arguments - some of which are merely counter-arguments to the views of child advocates - which attempt to appeal to peoples' logic, reason, and emotions. Now, it may be easy for us to say "no sane person will buy those arguments", but I don't think that's a proper response. NAMBLA is just about the only "organized" voice of pedophilia - and if the arguments are out there, and publically accessible, THEY NEED TO BE REFUTED, no matter how silly we "think" they would sound to "normal" people. An unchallenged argument is a won argument. As long as these peoples' arguments are simply rejected -without- being actually challenged and rebutted, the pedos can say that their opponents are being unreasonable - which is actually (and regrettably) a valid position on their part. We cannot allow them to hold that argumentative "high ground".

Now, true, their statements are being challenged - but, as I said before, they're being challenged by people with bad information.

Let me give you just one example. I clearly recall a recent CNN interview with US Attorney General Gonzalez, who referred to child pornography as an industry netting somewhere in the -billions- of dollars (perhaps he said "millions", but even so). Scary? Certainly. But does it even make sense? I did some search engining. Every single child pornography bust that I could find information about anywhere on the internet, going back 7 YEARS or more - even those involving large international sting operations - has involved individuals or collections of individuals who traded these images FOR FREE with other individuals. Many of these individuals made their own kiddy porn for distribution - again, FOR FREE - either on FREE song-trading networks or in private member-only FREE clubs (the sole requirement apparently being submission of more material to the group "pool"). These busts have collectively netted an immense number of images and movie clips, with a few single perpetrators possessing tens of thousands of individual images. All obtained FOR FREE from other pervs. Who is making the money? Where does the money go? Where does the money figure come from? If they haven't caught ANYBODY actually "selling" child pornography, how do they have the slightest clue how much these merchants make? Pedo groups point to statements like Gonzalez' "billions-dollar-industry" quip and laugh it off as ridiculous, and it is. For all I've been able to find out, the Justice Department could've invented this number out of whole cloth. Perhaps the number they're giving is the amount of money suspects have (tried to) spend on law-enforcement-run sites "offering" child pornography for a price. But it's simply dishonest to take that number and represent it as a gauge of profits made by "real" child porn sellers.

The problem is that the Justice Department's statement creates the illusion of some faceless illegal "corporation" that abducts children, makes movies with them, and sells the movies for small fortunes. It lends an "otherness", a kind of "distance" to the problem of child pornography - it happens "out there" - when the reality, the thing that people need to understand, is that the guy on the end of the block makes the stuff in his living room, possibly with YOUR KIDS, and trades it over the net in exchange for similar stuff from other people. The poor FBI agents who find this stuff and are forced to look at it all the time really don't know anything about it. But WE know about it, because we've been there. We're the people who need to tell the world the truth about what's going on, because the OTHER people who know the truth won't be talking.

Again, this is just one example - the one I happen to be most familiar with. Pedos can take arguments like Gonzalez' outrageous quotes and insist that "anti-pedos" have to resort to making stuff up in order to show that "pedophilia is bad". Another thing the pedos are big on arguing is the issue of the abuse being a "consentual relationship", and therefore not really abuse. Only those of us who were involved in these "consentual relationships" are in a position to really shed light on the emotional extortion which pedos try to pass off as "consent". We know the real deal, and we're the ones who need to teach. The way things are now, it's like having basketball coaches trying to teach physics.

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#14754 - 05/09/06 01:52 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I believe that there is a cash-based industry out there. I know that Visa in particular has helped net more than a few pedos by co-operating with law enforcement. Also, a few years ago the feds busted up a big trading ring and nailed a couple thousand pedos by tracing their Visas.

It could be though that these stings are getting the "unsophisticated" pedos, i.e., the guys who are dumb enough to use their Visa to buy child pron.

I liked your first comment, Mel.

"NAMBLA's networking characteristics make it a great information mine, because people involved in illegal activity also use the group to find clients, friends, and like-minded people. So the fact that NAMBLA exists is, paradoxically, a great help to us."

I like to think that the all the plans, plots and conspiracies of evil people have within them the seeds of their own destruction. A cop once told me that all criminals eventually make a self-betraying mistake, it's just a matter of being there watching when it happens. You are right, in their arrogance, the pedos are allowing the police right into their little circles. I can only shudder at what it must be like to be those poor undercover cops, having to sit there seeing and hearing what the pedos are doing to kids. There was a great episode of Law and Order with Jerry Orbach where he posed as a pedo and met with a trading group while investigating the murder of a girl. It was brilliant. I can't remember the episode but if anyone is interested I can go find it.

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#14755 - 05/09/06 04:31 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Nobby,

I'm a great fan of Law and Order and Jerry Orbach. I would love to see that episode.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
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#14756 - 05/09/06 08:29 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
I'm sure it's not a good feeling to have but I try to give myself room to understand all my feelings as part of the healing process.

NAMBLA is good because although the senior members / organisers seem to be quite intelligent the 'first time members / volunteers' appear to be very very stupid! So yeah it gives us and the authorities, when they want to!, a chance to highlight these people.

But the angry part of me says if they wanna have freedom of speech on this subject then they will feel my anger!

I've lived with what happened to me for years and years with it eating away at me. Fighting for it not to destroy everything! I won a lot of battles but I will win the war! And if in the process I highlight a few NAMBLA members then all the better!

And Japanzen thank you! Any publicity highlighting these predators is great!

Mark

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#14757 - 05/09/06 08:30 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
mark250676 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 310
Loc: England
Sorry when I said they were good I meant the fact that they enable us to spot them. Of course the organisation isn't good!

Mark

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#14758 - 05/09/06 09:00 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
How about having to grow up listening to the news and how a group known as P.I.E. were able to make news on their views.

The initials stood for pedo info exchange!
No, it wasnt about the public exposing them.
It was a group of pedos who openly shared info about kids who they could share around with each other.

It was run like some catalogue where you choose what type of kid you want.

All of that to an abused kid is too much to even think how they ever got publicity, let alone not locked up.

It somehow told me that it was OK to be abused,

ste

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#14759 - 05/10/06 12:35 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mel
Once again what you write make a lot of sense, I agree entirely.

Except that I believe there is huge money involved, and it runs alongside the traded porn you mention.

This is coming from the East, the old Soviet countries and some Asian ones as well.
Running a 'pay as you view' site from some godforsaken and lawless hell hole in Siberia is a pretty safe bet.
That traffic has to be curtailed by the credit card companies, by reporting every transaction to Interpol or someone, and it's up to the law enforcement people to identify those illegal sites in the first place.

Closing them down can only be done economically, raiding the premises won't work because they will just move on.
The economical way won't really work on the owners of the site either, they're probably too far removed to be caught anyway.
But if the perv's get too scared to enter their card numbers then the commercial sites will close.

Or am I being optimistic ?
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14760 - 05/10/06 03:00 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I would assume that the fact you're apparently able to get so much material out there for free would, by itself, put the "pay" sites out of business. But perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part, heh.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#14761 - 05/10/06 09:06 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
A good way would be to run a commercial saying that your card is being tracked.
Use your card and face jail.

Kids are abused because it makes them money.
There is a market, and it is the worst form of abuse possible.

Others must do it for the 'kick' of doing it and not being caught.
As technology advances they will eventually be caught and jailed.

The net is flooded with this stuff, and while people are willing to pay for it, it will never go away.

One way would be to find the sites and work with the credit card companies to block transactions to it.
A warning would be sent to whoever tried the transaction.

They need to be one step ahead, not millions of miles behind.

ste

_________________________
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#14762 - 05/10/06 10:43 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dave,

A lot of the porn sites seem to be set up in the East European countries once occupied by the USSR. Corruption is extreme in these places, so it's really difficult even to find these places, much less close them down.

In the UK and Germany there are many young guys who have come from Russia, the Balkans, or Poland to study or work. They talk about how bad the economic situation is back home, and in that context out comes the comment that well, of course, things are lots better of you're attractive, young-looking and willing to work the porn sites. These guys weren't willing, so that's why they are in the West.

The real problem is that if a family is in a bad way at home and members begin to head westward, the first to go are the fathers and big brothers, which leaves younger siblings VERY vulnerable. Instead of the closeness and feeling of being sheltered and protected, the youngsters feel cut adrift.

Guess who's sooo happy to help them out with those problems? It's easy money, it looks like a LOT of money, and hey, it's sex.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14763 - 05/10/06 02:13 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by reality2k4:
[QBOne way would be to find the sites and work with the credit card companies to block transactions to it.
A warning would be sent to whoever tried the transaction.

They need to be one step ahead, not millions of miles behind.

ste [/QB]
Ste, they aren't as far behind as you think. Visa has long been able to track transactions realtime. And they are working with the authorities now to use this technology to catch pedos. Small steps.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14764 - 05/10/06 04:37 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Nobby,

the sites cannot exist without electronic transactions.
If those payments could not be received, then it would force them to close.

It needs to be done globally to work properly.
Myself, I would never let my kids anywhere near the net without big protection.

I dont go surfing the net, so pretty much dont get it, and use pop up blockers and filters,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#468311 - 08/01/14 05:27 AM the bottom line [Re: mark250676]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3584
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: melliferal
The problem is that the Justice Department's statement creates the illusion of some faceless illegal "corporation" that abducts children, makes movies with them, and sells the movies for small fortunes. It lends an "otherness", a kind of "distance" to the problem of child pornography - it happens "out there" - when the reality, the thing that people need to understand, is that the guy on the end of the block makes the stuff in his living room, possibly with YOUR KIDS, and trades it over the net in exchange for similar stuff from other people. The poor FBI agents who find this stuff and are forced to look at it all the time really don't know anything about it. But WE know about it, because we've been there. We're the people who need to tell the world the truth about what's going on, because the OTHER people who know the truth won't be talking.


i agree, melliferal.

the rest of what you said is worth repeating and rereading…
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=14753#Post14753

to answer your question, mark250676…
Originally Posted By: mark250676
I know you have the 1st ammendment in the US but how can an organisation like this be allowed to exist?!


"There is nothing in them which is unlawful, which is outside the bounds of what is normally protected by the First Amendment," ACLU lawyer John Reinstein said in an interview.

As distasteful as most people find the group's views, those opinions are protected by the Constitution, he said.

"If the standard by which First Amendment protection is judged is whether enough people agree with it, we would be deprived of speech which is either controversial or opposed to the majority view," he said.

According to the FBI, the organization's sexual advocacy is protected by the First Amendment.

"Everyone has the right to assemble and espouse whatever belief they want," said Dan Dzwilewski, head of the FBI's San Diego office.
_________________________
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#468370 - 08/02/14 02:54 AM Re: the bottom line [Re: victor-victim]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: victor-victim

According to the FBI, the organization's sexual advocacy is protected by the First Amendment.

"Everyone has the right to assemble and espouse whatever belief they want," said Dan Dzwilewski, head of the FBI's San Diego office.


Neither of those FBI broad statements are true any longer under the current administration. Additionally, if the entity's speech and actions are criminal and damaging by the opinion of a court, it is not protected assembly or speech.

One thing we never hear about from the media, is the Nambla branches that become infiltrated by vigilantes. I consider them to be hero-phenoms!
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I'm "that guy."

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#468503 - 08/04/14 09:29 PM Re: the bottom line [Re: mark250676]
NoSimpleMachine Offline


Registered: 06/05/14
Posts: 164
Loc: SF Bay Area
Have known about NAMBLA for awhile...stumbled across this guy recently ( http://oncefallen.com/ ), and had a lengthy back-and-forth comment debate with him under an article about increased child pornography busting funding (which he was adamantly opposed to). He repeats all the "false memory" statistics, rejects all the statistics for prevalence of sexual abuse (he claims it's like 1 in a thousand or something obscenely low). Turns out the guy is a convicted sex offender because he molested a little girl and is on the sex offender registry (he calls it an "incidental molestation", the creep) and his political goals are to...stop child sex abuse and pornography law enforcement funding (effectively decriminalizing it) and to dismantle the sex offender registry.

Really goes to show what a coward the guy is. Convicted of a crime and put into a registry to warn others about what you've done, and your political goals are to decriminalize what you were convicted of and dismantle the registry you're on? What a selfish creep! And then using denialist tactics of cherry-picked statistics, hand-picked "experts", confusing the issue, and, of course, wrapping the whole thing up in the concept of "personal liberty" (he went on and on about personal liberty...what, the personal liberty to molest and rape children? Fuck off, creep!)

I cannot emphasize too much how insightful it was to get in with this guy in a debate. He backed down because I saw right through him. Just a self-concerned, unempathetic pedophile looking for redemption from society without any sort of atonement. And that's what these political movements are all about.
_________________________
If I know only one thing it's that everything that I see
Of the world outside is so inconceivable often I barely can speak
Yeah I'm tongue-tied and dizzy and I can't keep it to myself
What good is it to sing Helplessness Blues, why should I wait for anyone else?

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