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#14738 - 05/04/06 12:22 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Ste
those two links contain the 'work' of one man.

One link is the full study as published, and the other is the 'selected highlights' as presented by a boylovers site.

I have no idea at all if the man who wrote the study is a genuine academic, or if he's a charalatan. I don't know. But the research paper is out there for all to read with some degree of authenticity, which seems good when you read his profile

http://www.hivcenternyc.org/people/theosandfort.html

The other site however selects parts of Sandford's work that suits their argument, the one that they claim makes it alright for adults to have 'loving and sexual relationships with boys'

It's difficult to say exactly who they are aiming their selective views at though?
If they are trying to convince the huge majority of people that are rightly horrified at child abuse then I don't think any amount of massaging the facts will make a great deal of difference, most people would read this stuff and still stick to their original view that sex with kids is still wrong.

My view is that they are preaching to the converted, other ( and potential ) abusers who seek self justification for what they either do, or plan to do.

There's a cycle that everyone goes through when we set out to do something that is outside our normal behaviour, and it doesn't matter if it's illegal, dangerous or just something right outside of our normal lives. Part of that cycle is 'justifying' to ourselves the need to do whatever it is.
And that's what dressing up sexual abuse in distorted, selective and often pseudo-scientific terms is - it's the guilty giving themselves permission.

The problem is that they have a reason to do it, a big and overwhelming reason, and the rest of us haven't got as much reason, or at least resourses, to plough through all their shit and refute it.
It's like arguing with the crazy guy ranting on a street corner, you can't argue with a sick mind.

But do we try? I guess we must.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14739 - 05/04/06 09:34 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave,

tch,tch, he is a psychiatrist yuck.
So if one of us came to him, he would prefer to say you liked what happened!

I for one, have never read about any instance of positive sexual relationships between adults and children, so God knows where he got his data sample from.

I do however remember the infatuation a child can feel over adults they meet.
Crossing the line within the trust of an adult over a child is totally wrong.

I have to be sure in my mind that people think that somehow children are complicit in what happens to them, hence the survivor feeling like they are somehow seen as guilty within society.

That is one thing that keeps us silent, not achademic clap trap,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14740 - 05/04/06 06:36 PM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I think we need to realize that science and scholarship can always be twisted and distorted for the sake of vested interest. History is full of examples: imperialism, nationalism, racism, slavery, gender issues, the Holocaust.

All you need for this is a scholar who is more interested in his bank account and personal advancement than he is in the truth. And that type, sad to say, is all too easy to find.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#14741 - 05/05/06 12:07 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Which brings us to this piece -

http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/bauserman_objectivity.htm

where the acedemics disagree with each other!

"We" know that our experiences were bad for us, we wouldn't be here if they weren't, and most of us have a lot of faith in counselling and therapy which are products of the world of psychology ( broadly speaking )

But we also know that each person is an individual and 'works' differently.
Some psychological theories will be proven in nearly everyone, the basic stuff. But I think that once it gets into the realms of finding clear behavioural traits in relativly small numbers of people with a particular problem or set of influences accuracy is just about impossible.

With the study I mentioned above I don't think it's worth the paper it's written on.
Of course there are boys who enjoy their relationships with men, however much we might disagree.
But can it be quantified in a meaningful way? I don't think so because it's a snapshot in time and can't possibly take into account the future feelings and behaviours of the boy.

But it's pedalled around as 'scientific data' and then selectivly used by the creeps at NAMBLA and the like.
It might be researched well, it might be accurate as far as it goes, but is it meaningful?

And we can also fall into the trap of accepting scientific data that suits our position just as easily, when I believe we should be working with the data we know best - the stuff inside our own heads!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14742 - 05/05/06 11:18 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I dont think it is about what academics think in a world they have no contact with.
The big trouble is those who believe this crap, an believe me there are many who do.

There are many brilliant academics, but unfortunately the state pays others to produce this utter garbage, but yes, this stuff is taken 'as gospel' by the public.

I often thought there must be some positivity among some boys who had gay feelings towards older men, hence the large number who do not seek help, or think they were the guilty partner.

You only have to see the way judges rule against perps who have been abusing the same boy for years, and somehow the judge rules teh boy to be complicit.

Judges need to be taught a few base facts, that the age of consent does not give a child any consent in abuse.
No matter what the judge thinks, nor academia,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#14743 - 05/06/06 12:43 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mark's original post was about NAMBLA and why they are allowed to exist in a society that makes child abuse both illegal and abhorent, a good question that has raised so many interesting issues in this long topic. But has Marc's question been answered?

I know that I can't fully answer it, not even to myself. So I have no chance of 'answering' the question to anyone else.
All I can do when I see the crap that NAMBLA put out is force myself to accept that 'I' have very little influence or power to change the way pedo's and their groups think and act. And I don't think that genuine efforts by the like of 'rikijo' in his blog are going to make a huge difference either - not on their own. I wouldn't for one moment argue against them, and indeed I would support them as much as possible, but in the end I don't think that they are much more than a thorn in the sides of the pedo's and NAMBLA.

I think the way forward is for guys like us to shake off the shame and guilt of the abuse we lived through, and I deliberately didn't say "our guilt and shame" because it isn't our's, it belongs to our abusers.
Let's lose it, let's place it squarely where it belongs with the abusers, and in so doing I believe we become more comfortable with our pasts, and the abuse becomes easier to talk about. Once we start talking - people will realise the scale and magnitude of the problem, and the risk posed to their children.

Once CSA becomes a hot topic, and guys like us stand proud as the men we are, then normal, decent people will see the truth of what actually happens to sexually abused kids as they grow up, and that will shock most people.

Most unaffected people live in ignorance of the serious effects of CSA, and that isn't their fault because it's something that should be outside of everyones experiences.
So where do people learn about the effects of CSA? At the moment it seems to be from lurid stories in the media and misinformation and rumours. How often do we hear the lie that abused boys become abusers? It still gets peddaled as 'truth' and we KNOW it isn't.
Can 'we' do a better job? "Yes, we can".

So, has NAMBLA stolen a lead in the media war?
They come along with their pseudo-scientific theories, their selectivly chosen papers, and a veneer of 'respectability'. If you read through their site( and other similar sites ) they portray the image of respectable men in love with boys and not window licking madmen who lurk in the bushes after dark. The truth probably lies somewhere inbetween, but wherever it lies it's every parents nightmare. NAMBLA dresses up the nightmare as a pleasent dream!

I think the evidence is actually on our side, at least the respected evidence. But somehow we've found ourselves on the defencive against them.
That's understandable in many respects because so many of us carry the shame and guilt and need all our reserves to shake them off and recover, and some of us are simply not in a position to get out there and raise hell against NAMBLA, or have the time to forward the positive aspects of the survivors movement.

NAMBLA is a well organised movement that has every chance of raising its profile and gaining respectability, possibly child sex will become acceptable? maybe not in my lifetime but the acceptance of different lifestyles has happened in my 52 years, I sometimes dread to think what is possible in the next half century.

MS and all the other survivors groups and organisations do a terrific job of raising awareness of survivrs issues, but we are by nature generally quiet about 'ourselves' and the problems we face. Maybe we need to raise our profile and stand proud, make people listen to 'US' as survivors?

NAMBLA are doing just that, they are very active and should never be underestimated.
I said earlier "I don't give a shit about NAMBLA" and I don't, let them carry on and spread their vile rubbish, eventually they will shoot themselves in the head.

I think that our role needs to be one of proving ourselves as survivors.
If we heal and speak out, make people aware of OUR side of the sordid story and demonstrate that abuse has serious effects, and that we can recover from them then we will overcome the likes of NAMBLA.
We have a lot going for us, not only the law but the moral high ground as well, so why waste the effort in fighting NAMBLA directly when we can mobilise the allies, the normal decent folk out there, far easier?

There's strength in numbers.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14744 - 05/06/06 01:00 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
That's exactly why I still have the bit between my teeth with regard to all paedophiles!

NAMBLA are not 'boy lovers', they are 'boy haters' - anyone that loves you would not do anything to destroy your mind!

That is why I still cannot believe that James Fowler walked out of court as 'An elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions'.

That is why, I cannot let it 'lie'.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#14745 - 05/06/06 01:12 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
So what do we do next? I for one am considering a suggestion by my therapist that I join a group of rape survivors (female and male) that speaks to police organisations, child welfare workers, etc.

I am also hoping to be able to do some volunteer work with other male victims, although there are few organisations that do this.

The best weapon against misinformation is information itself. NAMBLA's strength is that it has the wherewithal to make itself sound legitimate. There is no reason why survivors cannot contact leading academics and lobby for "our" side. I'm willing to bet that the mainstream medical/psychological community is not bought into NAMBLA's lies, so maybe they can start sending out some good information.

And finally, for every NAMBLA, we must also remember that there is the Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, Childfind, Cyber Angels, the United Way, the law enforcement lobby groups, parents' groups, the parents' _media_ (all those pregnancy and parenting magazines), childrens' advertisers and any other number of groups who are interested in childrens' welfare. (edit: And of course Malesurvivor.org ;\) )

If these groups aren't aware of NAMBLA I would be very surprised, but I would bet a donut that any of them would be very interested in hearing from victims of CSA. Personally I think we owe it to ourselves as survivors and to those poor kids who are still getting molested to get the word out as loudly and clearly as we can. A campaign of whispers to the right people can undo the flimsy lies that the pedos have strung up to justify their perversion.

And if you are not able to speak out, then let your actions speak for you. Volunteer with kids. Big Brothers is a great charity and one of the best ways to protect vulnerable boys from pedos. The YMCA is another. By your actions and care for children you will help fight the battle.

Remember, you are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#14746 - 05/07/06 01:06 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Rik
I agree entirely, from our perspective they are 'boy haters'. From theirs 'lovers'.

But where does the mass of public opinion lie?
My guess is that they don't think about - they don't NEED to think about it - enough to have a properly formed opinion.
I guess the masses are more our side than theirs, but survivors just don't have the publicity in place to raise awareness.

Nobby
I couldn't agree more, we need to get out there and show the world that we're normal, ok, guys.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#14748 - 05/08/06 02:40 AM Re: NAMBLA?! I can't beleive this!!
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I agree with the lot of you. NAMBLA and similar pro-pedophile groups like to portray their enemies as faceless, out-of-touch Gestapo ultra-Victorian creeps who disapprove of pedophilia because they are really anti-youth, or anti-sex, for various political or religious reasons. They conveniently forget to mention abuse victims who may disapprove of pedophilia.

I think it's time we made our voices heard. We don't support pedophilia - not because we're feminists, or Christian fundamentalists, or politico vote-hunters; but because we've been there, and know as nobody else can know the devastation these people can leave behind. Pedophiles claim to love children, and they use every chance they get to try and portray themselves as good people, able to empathise with children, and against "real abuse". Other people oppose them from some platform, or because of what they've read in a book or seen on TV - and often, their information is exaggerated, or misrepresented, or just plain incorrect - making it easy for the pedos to meet their arguments. If one or two of those anti-pedos claims to have been an abuse victim, even then the pedos can meet them - "one or two bad experiences" doesn't mean ALL pedophiles are evil, right?

We, as survivors, oppose pedophiles because we actually know better, having the dubious benefit of personal experience. All the rationalization in the world would not be able to stand up against the voices of our collective experience. We need to stop being mere and occasional "poster children" for non-survivor anti-pedo movements and start becoming our own force of resistance. Alone, we are only fingers - but together, we are a FIST!

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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