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#145888 - 03/18/07 02:21 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Forgiveness didn't do anything for me. In my discussions with Shadowkid, he tries to help me, by bringing to the surface, SOME kind of anger towards my abusers. (thereby keeping me from being angry at myself perhaps)?

The anger towards them just isn't there. I can't be angry with them, and I can't hate them, and I HAVE forgiven them LONG ago.

But that still didn't help me! I'm still a God Damned loser by any stretch of the definition. I'm a fucking 38yo dishwasher for Christ's sake. I've achieved about as much in my life as the drunk you see passed out on 17th and Lexington in NYC.

Forgivness didn't do SHIT for me.


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#145891 - 03/18/07 02:33 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Hauser]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

You are right there; Anger triggers are all within us, and hating external triggers or avoiding them, makes us miss us all healing opportunities life offers, and we might stay unhealed, for a long time.

Sometimes, very deep-seated anger gets inverted on ourselves or gets hidden deep behind layers of fear, as fear stops us expressing this anger as it happens during abuse, fear stuns us or immobilizes us and we might not feel any anger in the present or it might get misdirected to easy targets like our inner self or even God.

Forward, that's the only way life moves, and as long as we are willing to work on our healing and move ahead, it is all right. As truly, anger releasing is also a process, just as forgiving oneself is.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#145895 - 03/18/07 02:54 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Chris,

I appreciate your post and the analogy's you draw. This subject come up from time to time and it always evokes strong reactions. ALWAYS. Perhaps that is a good thing as long as we can remain civil toward each other in the process.

I, as you, would never presume to tell another of my fellow travelers here how it must be for them in order to heal, but I think for me the path is much closer to what you have described than it is to the opposing view. I would also add that like you, I would never release the person from the justice that should come their way for the crime they committed.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#145906 - 03/18/07 04:05 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: WalkingSouth]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Hauser, You're never a loser until you quit trying.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#145916 - 03/18/07 10:15 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
As for Grace, it comes easy with Humility.


Yeah right. Easy. ;\)

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145917 - 03/18/07 10:18 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Morning Star,

Great posts. I'm interested in which faith you follow.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#145921 - 03/18/07 11:54 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Morning Star,

I really enjoyed reading your posts, and I must admit was rather surprised to hear hat you were not a Christian, since so much of your personal theology is in line with the basic teachings of Christianity (though, sadly, not of many of the sects thereof). Please don't think I'm trying to preach, testify, or convert, as I am myself not curretnly at home with any church.

I also believe that there is a lot of truth in what you say. The power of forgiveness can be transformational, however I would like to add that I do not think that we are necessarily doomed to a life of suffering if we find ourselves unable to forgive. For many, forgiving ourselves and moving forward in our recovery can only happen by shifting the guilt onto the backs of those who abused us. There are some people whose entire recovery journey is possible only because they have done this. Now we can certainly discuss whether or not this would be the way we would choose to go, but I won't ever tell anyone that their path is incorrect. If it brings them out of the shadows and givens them enough momentum to start moving forward in their lives, then they are succeeding in a task at which far far too many fail.

Let me add this, however, feelings of unresolved anger can be like storm clouds that darken and otherwise beautful clear sky. Seen at a distance, they can offer a majestic contrast to the crystilline clarity of our blue skies (they even make such things as rainbow possible!). But when they come in too close we can find ourselves at risk for bring washed away on the strom surge of emotions that can wash over us.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145922 - 03/18/07 11:58 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Hauser,

You are not a loser by any stretch of the imagination. Your strength and passion have helped a lot of us here on the boards, and it's obvious to me that you continue to struggle and strive to live a better life. Hope never dies, and on those days when the storm clouds overwhelm you, remember that every storm must pass. (And we're always here to help you bail the water and hand you an umbrella).

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145925 - 03/18/07 12:14 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Nobby,

Thomas Aquinas said that Faith is a gift of Grace from God. This was a great consolation to me during my atheist and agnostic days in college because I could go around telling everyone that I simply hadn't received my gift yet.

All joking aside, receiving grace is at one and the same time the easiest and the hardest thing to do. (Someday I hope to understand why God always deals in paradox). No one can ever be turned away from receiving God's gifts, but to get them you have to ask him for the gift of grace, which requires, among other things a willingness to suspend your own disbelief, doubt, and mistrust. Essentially it requires that we check our ego at the door and admit that there are things that we simply cannot provide for ourselves.

Many people cannot do this, and many others who think that they have don't understand what it means to check their ego at the door (think Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Falwell, and many of their parishoners). I think that a good sign that you are following the true path is that you continue to wrestle and struggle with your own doubts, fears, and anger all along the way. (This of course means that I am on the right path, since I continue to approach God, be disappointed by his people or his church, and walk away again in confusion. Go me!)

I think as survivors each of us bring a different perspective to this question of grace. (You listening Fighting Scot?) I still really struggle with the idea that a child should ever have to ask their parent for the things they have a right to expect. No child should have to ask for love, protection, and nurturing from their parents, and yet that seems to be exactly what I understand the lessons of Christianity to be. Perhaps someone out there has better insight into this that me.



Edited by tartugas (03/24/07 09:12 PM)
_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#145930 - 03/18/07 01:04 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Tartugas, there's a quote that is attributed to St. Theresa of Avila:

Quote:
"As an old, ill nun, the foundress of Carmel was on the way
to visit one of her foundations. It was winter
and the road—if one could call it a road—was
knee deep in mud. The wagon had once again
become stuck and St. Teresa was obliged to get
out and lighten the load. Upon alighting she
fell flat in the mud. She heard God say in one
of her locutions,

“This is how I treat my
friends.”

Teresa was heard to mutter,

“Well, it's no wonder you have so few.”






Edited by Nobbynobs (03/18/07 01:14 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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