But don't you see my point??? Please dont let my psycho-rage cloud this point.

If they are not ASKING for forgiveness (preferably BEGGING), how is it even a topic for me to deal with?

You know...we have to ASK God to forgive us... and he does. If I'm asked by the mad-dogs...the burden is now on me (and my eternal soul). You know what??? i dont think I'm gonna get asked

And how many who appreciate her, and actually follow her teachings in their everyday life.....

That is the beauty of cosmic wisdom, that just by following our inner guidance, our intuition in our everyday choices, who knows which saints' teachings might be entering into our everyday life. Amazing grace!

Not to get into doctrine-wars...but tain't no saints other than those owned by Jesus. I leave the statues for the Catholics.

As for grace and mercy....I should have it....but not for them...sorry.

_Prayer time_________
Sorry Lord, I'm not a very good witness for you today...but you know what's up! You know ALL!!!

If you dont like Jesus, it is absolutely fine with me, as long as you are at peace with the Lord, I know you are in good hands, and you will be fine too, for that's what love does to you.

love?what does love have to do with the lord? dont tell me he loves me ,i know thats not true. i gave up on the lord not too long after i quit believing in the tooth fairy and santa clause. just another fairy tale we were told to keep us in line . all i ever felt about the lord was fear ,fear that he would punish me for the littlest thing ,fear that somehow it was my fault that he didnt save me. oh and disappointment of all those who let me down he hurt me the most.

Hi all:

Very interesting topic, I have been on Male Survivor for awhile now, and nothing pushes a survivors buttons like the topic of forgiveness. I have also struggled with the tropic for many years and what to do with it. Forgiveness mean many different things to different people, so forgiveness is hard to put in a black and white definition. I feel it is up to the individual to define for them selves. My view on it is the person that is done wrong has to take responsibility for their action (thus accountability for their actions), without that there can not be forgiveness. The person who abused me (and all the other souls he hurt) has not taken responsibility for his actions and I do not expect he will ever will. Do I need to forgive him to move on with my life? Absolutely not. Do I still have the anger for the years of abuse; yes and no. Yes I am anger for what was stolen from me, but I have now learned to use that anger in a positive way and never against another person. Just my thoughts.

I find it very interesting that any discussion of forgiveness very quickly become colored by tints of religious attitudes. I'd like to point out that an atheist is jut as capable of forgiving as a Buddhist monk, or a Christian pastor. In my view the act of forgiveness is a wholly secular act, regardless of who chooses to make a case for or against it.

shadow,

Thank you for sharing your feelings and your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from, and though we may have different feelings about this question, I totally respect your thoughts.

Robbie,

My friend, I understand as well your point that forgiveness should be asked for before it is given. I would like to suggest that it is possible to forgive without ever being asked for it. Such an act of generosity can be, in a small way, a proof our better nature. I still hold that, for me (and I think it can be true for others), that the power of forgiving those who have done me wrong (not just my abuser, but all who in some way harm me) is something which gives me a sense of power and control over my own life.

By forgiving I can, in fact, bring to an end a battle that I mught otherwise continue to fight with no hope of victory. By forgiving my parents for the ways in which they failed me, I can look more openly at the kinds of people they were, and owrk more effectively to ensure I don't make the same mistakes they did.

Should you forgive? That's for you to decide. I can only tell you how it has had an effect on my own way of living. I am still bitterly angry about the wrongs that were done to me. But I also recognize that who I am today, scars, warts, skills, and all has been created by what happened to me in the past. Regardless of where we come down on this issue, however, I want to stress that our opinions may distinguish us, but I hope that nothing might divide us. As a brotherhood we can all work together to help hael one another, and teach everyone about who we are and what we need.

To tell you the truth man...I absolutely fall apart if I even THINK of forgiving the mad-dogs. I'm just not there yet. may never be...

Maybe we need to define the term "forgiveness" in tangible and commonly agreed factors???

Well Robbie, it sure sounds like you and I might be working with different definitions of what forgiveness is. In my book forgiveness is a way of squaring the books between you and those who worng you internally. IT does not, EVER, mean that they are let off the hook for their crimes (which was my point in starting this thread; every person must still be held accountable, if possible, for their actions). Forgiveness doe not mean you embrace your abuser and love them with the same openness and trust that you feel for, let's say, your children.

Don't, please don't, let my opinions drive you to the edge. Is there something in what I've said, or anyone else has said that opens a door for you? Do you have some ideas for how we could, perhaps, come up with a better defintion? Is there something in this thread that does resonate in a positive way for you?

you know when jesus was getting hanged he told god to forgive theses people who where herting him (i forgive my abuser... a little)