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#146093 - 03/19/07 03:18 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
This is the problem with "taking positions" in a mode of negotiations. It becomes a tug-o-war. Here, at MS, we ought not be in "negotiation mode." Rather, here at MS, let's be in learning, understanding, and consoling modes...and just know that we will have radically differing opinions on this topic and many others accociated with our CSA.


Speaking for myself, that some of the guys here disagree with my admittedly strong opinions on forgiveness does not make me love them one iota less. And my love for them gives me the strength to disagree with them. One day Rik and I will show the rest of you guys the great conversations that we have had over PM, but only after he admits that I am right. ;\)

Quote:
And just to throw a wrench into the works....I realized today that I can forgive my Dad for kicking the shnik out of me during those very bad years. (did I just say that out loud?)


Wonderful. Congratulations. You are making some great gains, my friend.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146107 - 03/19/07 05:30 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: pietie]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Forgiveness is something I used to save ME.
Torturing yourself with past hurt is just feeding the guilt and all teh other emotions that can only hurt yourself.
Taking out their guilt on myself has taken toll on me, and not them so I chose to forgive.

My older brother mentally abused me for most of my growing years, and I constantly had to fight what he said about me to my friends.
I know he will never admit it, but he could not understand that I was my dads favorite son, only because I did everything in the house and even cooked the meals etc.

He knows how pathetic he was in the past, but I am prepared to forgive him, because he is not going to admit the abuse even though he knows he did wrong.
That is up to him, he cannot be the same man as me or my brother nor my sister who he also abused.

I could have got through sexual abuse if he had been a better brother and protect me rather than make me feel little.
When I was fighting SA in my head, I had no resources to deal with him calling me a queer at school, and all the other things he did to belittle me.

We need to congratulate the little boys who got you through, and not dwell on what could be,

ste


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#146129 - 03/19/07 08:19 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: reality2k4]
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Please don't anyone hold back on their views. I believe it's very good that we all say what we want on this topic! Remember many of us were silent for too long - this is not the place for us to be silent. I strongly believe in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that I don't think anyone else should have a different one.

Some of the comments do wind me up, as I know mine equally wind others up! That's quite healthy actually - they call it debate.

If anyone chooses to forgive one of 'those people' that has caused us irrepairable damage, fine! That is your choice. I choose not to, and nobody will ever make me think differently.

The best way to make communities safe (in my opinion) is to ensure that paedophiles get the message that they are in danger of spending extensive amounts of time in prison. The judiciary need to make sure that they receive that message. Children and all 'responsible adults' need to be educated so that they can give children the ammunition to deal with potential paedophile threats (good touch / bad touch etc). That is the best way that we can prevent more victims/survivors coming here in future years. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this site was eventually not required, because paedophiles could no longer be in a position to apply their desires. I don't suppose you could stop the crazy ones that kidnap and attack kids, but we should be able to stop the groomers!

We are very much aware in the UK that we are extremely short of prison spaces. To give you an example of what the judiciary is like, we have an elderly judge that recently said: 'If we keep sending people to prison for life, the prisons will eventually be full of geriactric murderers. Only really bad murderers should be sent to prison for life'. You can all guess where I'd love to send that silly old sod (that was a strain to be polite). I'd like to ask him what he considers to be 'a good murder'. See we don't have to forgive the abusers, because the judiciary do it for us.

The killers of a young boy (very small for his age and only around 12 when he was murdered) that was drugged and raped then murdered in a paedophile orgy, received what appeared to be reasonable sentences if they had actually served them. Parole meant that they were let out to continue their perverted activities.

And back to the anolagy of the lamp! Well you can replace a lamp! You can just go to the store and buy a new one - it might not be exactly the same, but it will light up your room just the same way that the old one did! Childhood - you cannot go to a store and pick a bag of 'formative years' off the shelf! You cannot ask for a replacement childhood to be downloaded into your brain as the latest piece of software. You cannot ask for your identity back - once stolen, it's gone! Forever! You have to create a new one at a time when your circuitry is damaged.

You can as I stated earlier fight back and be successful in your life! That is the best revenge we can all have! It's difficult to achieve but that is my forgiveness to myself (and it took a long time)! I do not wish to forgive James Fowler, even if the courts thought that they had the right to do so! Sod him and sod the judiciary!

Differing opinions - yes Nobby and Myself have had some disagreements on this subject (maybe we are both quite firmly in the opposite camps on this topic that others hear would think we'd have a fight if we met). Adam is pretty much of the same opinion as myself. We thought Nobby was quite mad with his overriding desire to forgive, as it was the last thing that we would ever do.

It may surprise you to know, that although we disagree strongly on this topic, we have all agreed that we could sit down and have a pint or more together. Nobby would buy the first round though, because he knows we are right!

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#146134 - 03/19/07 08:26 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: RICK57]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Rik,

Well I hope that I might be allowed to join the discussion at the pub the next time I make it across the pond. And just to keep things civil, I'd be happy to get the first round for everyone.

I really like the counterpoints you are bringing in to the analogy. You are absolutely right, one cannot replace lost years. But I do think that the skills which we could have developed and joy we could have experienced in those stolen years can be experienced later in life. Will it be the same? Of course not, but that does not necessarily mean that the experience with be qualitatively different.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146141 - 03/19/07 08:55 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
heh i couldnt stay out of this!lol two things strike me as unbelievable that children make poor witnesses, and we can have safe communities with rehabilated perps living among us ,how do you get this totaly safe comunity? i ask this would you feel safer if you had 10 pedophiles living on your block ,if their victims told you they had forgiven them ? would you be able to ignor what they did? forgivness might very wll help you but while your forgiving him he will be stalking his next victim . can you forgive him for any kids he hurts after you forgive him.live and let live is great untill you include the animals in it. on the children as witnesses part,it dont make a damn bit of difference how good the witness is ,when deals are made outside the courtroom , in the intrest of saving money,or for other reasons, i sat in that court for 3 days ,said things you dont even want to think ,got accused of being the one to blame ,lawyers in my face making me cry,being told to look at people when you know you cant ,being told to speak up when you can barely talk . kids are not good witnesses? people cried with me there and it didnt mean shit!it wasnt my fault he only got 7 years,of does forgiving make you think thats enough for what he did ,im sorry i didnt mean to hi jack this post ,but i needed to say this. i was 13 ,but i think i was a damn good witness

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146145 - 03/19/07 09:06 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
I don't know that a totally safe community is possible. Even if the perp was forgiven by those he/she abused, there is still a huge chasm of a difference between forgiveness and trust. Forgiving someone in this context does not require me to trust them again.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#146149 - 03/19/07 09:38 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Robbie, Now that's some good news. Keep it coming!

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146155 - 03/19/07 10:37 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Shadow,

I feel the need to again clarify that, in my book at least, my forgiving someone for the wrongs they have done me is a totally separate issue from holding someone accountable for their crimes. Just because I forgive someone does not in any way excuse them from being held liable and does not free them from facing the just punishment they deserve.

Forgiveness is a personal matter between me and those who have done me wrong. I can choose to forgive but still push just as hard as humanly possible to see an abuser put in jail for what he or she may have done. I simply don't understand why one must negate the other. Likewise, it is certainly possible for someone to be sent to prison and not be forgiven by his or her victims.

I certainly won't force my opinion about the value of forgiveness on anyone, but I stand firm on the point that forgiveness and accountability are two separate things, neither one requiring or negating the other.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146158 - 03/19/07 10:45 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
I would also make the argument that, the presence of pedoskenes (I prefer this term as opposed to pedophile) in any community does not necessarily make that community more or less safe. Every community, no matter where it is, faces its own threats, from inside and outside the community. We will never have any community that is totally free from any form of threat, as long as death and suffering exist in this world. A better judge of the safety of a community is not how many bad people are found within it, but rather how many good people.

I feel that what makes a community safe is not extermination or expulsion of threatening people or influences. You simply can't get rid of every threat. It seems to me that makes a community safe is the combined work of it's members to uplift, educate, and assist one another to meet whatever threats may come along. No one parent can ever be expected to fully prepare and protect a child, however a whole community of willing, capable, and understanding adults who will agree to work together to make a better place for each other will be able to do a much better job of protecting itself.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146173 - 03/19/07 11:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Tartugas,

You are so right there, there is no versus between accountability and forgiveness, they ARE separate things.

I believe that is why people confuse the two, and stay away from the latter.

Our forgiveness only frees us, from our prejudices and life long grudges and pain, but the abusers are still held accountable by the Universe. No is absolved from the law of Karma, no one.

Forgiveness doesn't mean excusing someone off; we only excuse ourselves from the energy dynamics that perpetuates between the victim and abuser.

The power imbalance that was once created by abuse of power by the abuser can be shift back in the favour of the victim, once again, and that can happen in two ways, one you do the same to the abuser, the classical eyes for an eye situation, which explains the active and passive rage within everyone who doesn’t forgive, as they want to get even, someday. So anyone who shifts that power balance ever again away from them, becomes an effigy of their abuser, and once again bears the brunt of their anger which was reserved for their abusers and the deep hidden rage at their own inability to get even with their abusers.

This what makes the second tool, forgiveness such a healthy and potent option, as it not only shifts the power balance back in the favour of the victim, it also gives us the freedom to choose a lifestyle that free from the constant feelings of prejudice and getting even with who ever shifts that power balance in our life, away from us.

We keep looking for people who are out there to ‘get’ us or hurt us in any way. Slowly being constantly vigilant tires us out, and our body, mind and spirit and our energy system exhausts itself. As it can keep on the fighting mode for only so long.

That is why forgiveness is considered an act of ultimate power. And sure enough it feels powerful once you have forgiven, as we have reclaimed our power back, then you no longer get rattled or filled with rage or bitterness, by just the sight or thought of abuser.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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