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#146213 - 03/20/07 10:25 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Karma is something i dont believe in. There is knowone in this universe behind the scenes pushing buttons, righting wrongs and the like. But there is the enevitability that bad things will happen unspicific to you or anything you've done...its called the balance which i spoke of a few pages back which i assumed was ignored, the point being people themselves by there own efforts have to make things happen, right the wrongs.

I cant count the occasions i've heard people let things slide and then say in a karma like belief...well he'll get his. There is no cure for perversion. Aslong as perverts and children co-exist there will be rapes, molestations and murders. There will always be that immediate threat. Our laws and systems are shit, and the punishments perverts get are usually minimal...ontop of that they spend there prison stay in PC (protective custody) where they dont have to fear the other inmates who dont take kindly to pedophiles. The victims are put in the spot light, questioned most likely not believed, put threw an emotional storm then sent home to try and patch there lives together and try to live a normal life. And a few years later the abuser is released unscathed and most likely a recidivist but more careful. The amber alert is as good as it will most likely get. And it is good and has helped here. When you see the alert flashing people become conscious of who there looking at, or for. But the justice system and societies prevention of abuse will continue to look bleak. There should be the natural law of what's right is right. You catch a pervert you break his legs and cut of his thing. No PC prison stay-vacation. But the way it is you yourself would be a criminal for protecting your own or punishing those who hurt them, or you.




Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 10:32 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146214 - 03/20/07 10:29 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
If some people can forgive those and the things that were done to them then more power to you. I cannot, its not ok. I cant pardon that and the act of power is that i show an incredible act of restraint in not expressing my rage to the world. Or by not finding those who've misused me soaking them in gasoline then setting them on fire. Its an act of power to not take your life even though this one has been so unkind and seems so sure to be fruitless(excluding those with children as thats a reason to live). The thing is i did not ask for this burden. I do not want to feel these things or be this way. I did my best to bury everything and forget which is impossible and the mere idea of forgiving hit's a nerve. And this is for forgiveness which isnt open for interpretation its states its definition quite clearly. But for those who can forgive, great. Holding someone accountable is something else as was stated, Seperate things. And i agree with the latter.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146221 - 03/20/07 11:36 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
The law of Karma states that "For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction". And that's exactly what the Newton's third law of Motion also suggests.

One is pure science, another pure philosophy. Pick what you like, or not, its all up to you.



May be that is what science is - spirituality applied to everyday life, just as spirituality presents what science in essence aims to take us to a better life.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146222 - 03/20/07 11:46 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
That's what you decided to pick out?.....bravo.

The point of that being you can rely on karma or you can make things happen. Karma isnt spicific. You go out and steal a TV its not garenteed your getting cought. Or that you yourself will be stolen from. There may be no justice at all in that situation.





Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 11:47 AM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146227 - 03/20/07 12:10 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Jaime,

I hear your anger and frustration, and I share much of it. Personally I'd like to see every male abuser castrated (not sure yet what to do with women who abuse children), even though I recognize that such a punishment would not necessarily address the underlying psychosis at play. But, as much as I feel that that is an appropriate punishment, I doubt very strongly that my views will carry the day in a democratic society where the innocence of the accused is an unalienalbe right.

And I think that that is how is should be. The purpose of a justice system is to allow us as a group to rise above the barbarity of "eye for an eye" thinking. If we cannot move past our personal desires for vengence then we are left to fight out endless struggles that will never find a peaceful resolution. Look at the history of Northern Ireland, Palestine, Iraq. The cycle of vengence in all these places holds bak the tide of civilzation, peace, and prosperity for all.

I understand that a necessary step in breaking the cycle of vengence is for the victim to accept the reality of the grievous harm done to them. Not accept in the sense of passively believe that they deserved it, or were too weak to protect themselves (we all know the damage this kind of thinking causes) but accept in the sense of facing and openly acknowledging the hurt and the injuries we carry, and then taking on the responsibility to do the hard work of healing.

This necessarily means that we, the victims, must shoulder a burden that is unjust, that is not of our own creation, and that hurts like hell. It sucks. It makes me angry and sad adn feelings of vengence do flash across my eyes at times. But I feel very strongly that a more powerful response than simply looking to give back the damage done to me is to stop the hurting and break the cycle of vengence. This is at the heart of forgiveness, for me. If I am strong enough to survive this long, I'm certainly strong enough to heal. And so are you, so is everyone here.

Again, let me be clear. Forgiveness is a matter between me and my abusers. There is still a system in place (imperfect though it may be) and a call to hold those who abuse us accountable. To forgive does not mean to absolve the guilty of their guilt. So long as the stain of their sins colors my soul, they will carry the weight of their crime on theirs.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146231 - 03/20/07 12:48 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

ok then, next time underline the text you want us to pick.
Or we will pick whats relevant to us, and befits a reply.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146232 - 03/20/07 12:52 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
You know in mexico child abuse is rampent. Alot of regular people with families are well aware and fed up. They wont tolerate it. A couple of CIA agents were taken picture of some men near a childrens school yard and the locals found out thinking it was of the children and got together (unaware that they were agents and not being pervert) and beat them to within an inch of there lives. They took that other inch by setting the pair on fire. This was a couple years ago i believe. Now thats a big mistake. But had they been men abusing children i'd agree with it. There should be special treatment for perverts. And our justice system makes things nice and comfterble for the abusers. Mob mantality is primative and instinctual.

I understand what your saying and i agree with your healing points. And i understand forgiveness and accountability are seperate issues. But brutality sends a loud messege. If such brutality were carried out in nations like the USA with the government cracking down on the child abuse issues unlike mexico it would be have a much more successful effect. This is just thought and i realize this will never be.

For women it would be a clitorectomy with childrens scissors.

MS: You reply to what you like. It just came off confrontational and trivial to address the word's rather then the bottom line. It's like reading the words rather then reading what there saying. Do what you do.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 12:57 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

Top
#146245 - 03/20/07 02:26 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
bottom line here is we disagree with forgiving and as you said we have every right to ,please dont make the discussion seem like its about who is the better person .i have me opinion as do others like jamie ,i feel that the choice i made is the right one for me ,i dont try to convert you to my way of thinking ,dont try to convert me to yours.thats what i sense in this post we are seen as those poor angry kids who will never get over what happened,dont feel sorry for me cause i wont forgive and i promise i wont feel sorry for you cause you did. accountability to me IS AN EYE FOR AN EYE .and the world cant get any more blind than it is now can it? saying what they did is forgivable just adds to that blindness

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146249 - 03/20/07 02:33 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
If such brutality were carried out in nations like the USA with the government cracking down on the child abuse issues unlike mexico it would be have a much more successful effect. This is just thought and i realize this will never be.


Wow, am I glad you aren't in politics. The last thing you want is your government being allowed to brutalise citizens. All the abusers would just become cops.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146255 - 03/20/07 03:01 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
I dont think you deciphered the differences i was speaking of. I was talking about mob mantality added to the fact the government would be cracking down.

Cop's already are abusers and government already dose brutalize its citizens. This is nothing new. You living in toronto should know that.

If i am lesser to anyone for these beliefs then so be it. I read that people wanted honesty and so this is mine.

Some more honesty is i cant fucking stand when religion enters discussions like this. It ostricizes those who dont follow it and it holds a preaching tone that you arent part of the plan or in good grace less you follow along, god, religion, spirituality ect dose not relate to ones personal view of forgiveness of another for the kinds of things we are speaking of. I realize this is from a page or so ago but i cought up on the reading this afternoon. And as its been established i dont think anyone knocks anyone else for there views on that. Whether forgiveness is needed or right/wrong ect.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 03:04 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

Top
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