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#146288 - 03/20/07 06:59 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: shadowkid
bottom line here is we disagree with forgiving and as you said we have every right to ,please dont make the discussion seem like its about who is the better person .i have me opinion as do others like jamie ,i feel that the choice i made is the right one for me ,i dont try to convert you to my way of thinking ,dont try to convert me to yours.thats what i sense in this post we are seen as those poor angry kids who will never get over what happened,dont feel sorry for me cause i wont forgive and i promise i wont feel sorry for you cause you did. accountability to me IS AN EYE FOR AN EYE .and the world cant get any more blind than it is now can it? saying what they did is forgivable just adds to that blindness


Shadow,

I apologise for making you feel that I was trying to cop a superior attitude. I assure that I do not think I am a better person than you, or anyone here. As I said a couple of pages ago, I'm not a preacher, I'm a writer. And my posts here are a way of me expressing my inner thoughts and working out my own feelings on these matters. I totally respect that we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue, but I hope you will permit me to continue posting reponses and contrary points of view without feeling that I am trying to convert you or label you as mistaken.

When people can freely diagree and make the best possible arguments for their own beliefs, then we engage in a constructive dialogue. We are not tearing one another down, we are trying to build one another up intellectually. I think it's an essential part of the learning process. I appreciate every single thing everyone has brought to the discussion, and I will gladly say that I have been made wiser for it.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146311 - 03/20/07 10:25 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
tar i really didnt think anyone was acting superior ,it just seems like people think its sad that i cant forgive ,this is a good post and i agree totaly that we need to agree to disagree but we should still be able to hold a conversation on the subject. i understand that those who forgive find it helps and as friends they only want to offer what helped them , maybe this is one way i let my anger get in the way of my understanding. i get angry at what happened and maybe it comes out in these kind of posts,if so thats one more reason to not forgive him ,because he even made it hard for me to accept help when its offered.

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146315 - 03/20/07 10:31 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Your post came out of left wing. And the way you explained yourself above it makes alot of sense. Hell after reading my last one the written tone makes it appear as though i'm pissed off. And i suppose i was slightly. This is a senstive topic and when you start thinking about things related to the topic you start thinking about past incidents and that effects people. Its good to have these topics and discussions even though they can be heated.



Edited by jamie' (03/20/07 10:32 PM)
_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

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#146316 - 03/20/07 10:41 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

After taking decades to learn to forgive and still learning, I have noticed that once we learn to forgive power struggles end in our life, as they have ended within.

And until we learn to forgive completely and get the internal power imbalance straightened out, we simmer all day long, waiting to take revenge, and thus stay victim all our live, and thus tend to get into power struggles at all times, and in all areas of life.

Even sundry incidences seem to take away our power from us, like an opposing viewpoint or choice make by someone close, because internal we are still feeling same powerlessness as we felt when abused as child.

So we try to fix it on the outside, while forgetting that the real source of this power imbalance lies unattended within us. When we get fed up of trying to control external situations around us, and exhaust ourselves we realize that may be the source of all this lies within, that is when we often wake up to fix our life within, till then fighting, anger and control are the only ways in which we can feel powerful.

Aggression always is a mark of weak person, and every one knows that it is a mask that we often wear when we feel weak inside or hurt. But the true sign of a power-balanced or centered person is calm assertiveness.

As long we stay depended on other people and external situation to give us some suggestion of our power, we shall always feel weak and incessantly when power will get swayed away from us, as what’s within gets reflected out naturally as world is but a reflection who we think we are within, privately, individually and by our selves, and if we believe that we have no power, life is only reflect that until we make efforts to change it.

Some raging victims become raging activists or even social vigilantes which is all right, but in the end all this internal rage destroys their immune and blood circulation system, as higher levels of ‘cortisol’, body's the stress hormone, leads to blood pressure, diabetes, immunity disorders, bone disorders and in some cases cancer, which is all doubly sad, as not only did the abuser destroyed a childhood, we allowed him to also kill us, eventually.

As long that we are simmering inside for our abusers to get killed by us, let remember that it is he who is killing us slowly instead. As they say – “He who angers you conquers you.”

I remember Norman Sealy, a noted writer who works infield of internal medicine once said that after of his 20 minute long Forgiveness workshops one of his participants who was dying with cancer; literally walked out cured.

As something clicked inside her during the meditation and she said to herself, “Those bastards destroyed my childhood, now I won’t let them kill me.”

And thus she cured herself.

All forgiveness begins with self forgiveness and we can forgive others only when we have learned to forgive ourselves of our past mistakes; as we treat others only the way we treat ourselves.
……………………………………….

A clip of that Norman Sealy discussion


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146317 - 03/20/07 10:50 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Jesus christ man. That just paranoided me out.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

Top
#146405 - 03/21/07 05:36 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
lets not get crazy k?my anger is gonna give me cancer!!!? maybe keeping it inside like the forgivers do might cause cancer,my anger is right here on the outside its not eating me alive slowly ,this is getting crazy! self forgivness?what the hell did i do? weak? weak is giving up ,giving in ,forgiving .saying its ok might work for you m s ,but to me its just denying the anger you have inside,

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146465 - 03/22/07 12:02 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Now that's as crazy one can get.

You can do all the talking here but your body knows your truth, and speaks it too. You must have heard of the saying - Your Biography becomes your Biology. Its true.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146471 - 03/22/07 12:24 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
jamie' Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 125
Loc: Ont, Can
Did i just make up the word parinoided?. lol

Hell, i'm an angry person with lots of rage and yadda yadda yadda. I dig the at peace zen thing that some of these other people are talking about. I dont like the anger, i hate that i hate so much. And i do appreciate the insight and advice. I just dont dig the preaching. Not pointing any fingers.

And i really dont want any cancer or any of the stuff mentioned. And i know that anger carries side effects. I have some. So maybe what MS is saying is true.

_________________________
No matter how long and dark the night is, Or the fear and hurt that it can bring, there will always be a dawn, where we can push the past aside and move forward with hope.

Top
#146490 - 03/22/07 03:17 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: jamie']
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

I think the real issue here is not, whether forgiveness or accountability are right or wrong issues. The real issue here is, whether they work or not, in aiding a survivor lead a better life.

And since it has worked for some of us, with a similar ‘ailment’ there is no harm in trying it.

Isn’t that what we are all here for, to find new ways to live, and get empowered?

And, if in a week, ten days, it doesn’t cut for you, then you can always drop it, and get mad and angry, all over again. ;\)



_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146504 - 03/22/07 08:50 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
To chime in with ms on this, I have found that takng things in small doses often helps me. For instance, instead of wholesale changing my attitude of self-abuse and negation all at one blow (which always proved to be an impossible task for me in the past), I would try instead to accept everything positive that anyone told me as true for an hour or a day, and just try to watch how it affected me.

Similarly, instead of trying to forgive one's abuser, which to me is the equivalent of a 5 year old trying to write "War and Peace", perhaps try forgiving a small and seemingly insignificant trifle that would otherwise set you off. I used to have real problem with fast food places. Whenever some pimply-faced attitude wielding teenager didn't pay attention to me and screwed up my order I would fly into a rage (no seriously, I did). After finally realizing that this was not really a good way to go through life, I tried to let that anger go by understanding that they can make mistakes, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they are in some way trying to hurt me.

If you recognize you have a lot of anger in your life, AND you know that you don't like it, then try letting go of some of it in seemingly trifling situations. Have some road rage issues? Pop in a meditation tape, or some classical music, or a book on tape (so that you're actually doing something productive with the time you spend in the car) and try, for an afternoon, to be forgiving towards the people who you don't know and whose only fault is getting in your way at the wrong time.

Don't think of it as "I've got to do this or I'll never get better", and don't in any way assume that the end goal is to get you to forgive your abuser. Regardless of whether or not you feel that that is appropriate forgiveness is your choice, not mine. Think of this, rather, as an experiment. And don't judge yourself, or worry if your doing it right. Just try to pay attention to how you feel without trying to control it too much.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

Top
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