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#146013 - 03/18/07 09:14 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: dillon]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
You know what Tartugas.?.I just realized...I'm in WAY too much pain to be defining anything right now. Let's pick this one up down the road.

Still love ya brother!!! \:\)

Robbie

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#146017 - 03/18/07 10:04 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>
intransitive verb : to grant forgiveness
synonym see EXCUSE
why is it that in the definition its only the one forgiving who gives something up?

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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146018 - 03/18/07 10:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
: to make apology for b : to try to remove blame from
2 : to forgive entirely or disregard as of trivial import : regard as excusable <graciously excused his tardiness>
3 a : to grant exemption or release to <was excused from jury duty> b : to allow to leave <excused the class>
4 : to serve as excuse for : JUSTIFY <nothing can excuse such neglect>
another word for forgivness ,excuse -to forgive entirely or disregard as of trivial import. trivial import.to describe abuse?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#146019 - 03/18/07 10:11 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: shadowkid]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
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Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
I stand defined!!! Thank you Shadow.

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The Water Buffalo Song

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#146021 - 03/18/07 10:36 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
The need for forgiveness
Pope John Paul II
(from the Pope's address at the Celebration for the World Day of Peace, January 1, 2002.)

8. But what does forgiveness actually mean? And why should we forgive? A reflection on forgiveness cannot avoid these questions. Returning to what I wrote in my Message for the 1997 World Day of Peace ("Offer Forgiveness and Receive Peace"), I would reaffirm that forgiveness inhabits people's hearts before it becomes a social reality. Only to the degree that an ethics and a culture of forgiveness prevail can we hope for a "politics" of forgiveness, expressed in society's attitudes and laws, so that through them justice takes on a more human character.

Forgiveness is above all a personal choice, a decision of the heart to go against the natural instinct to pay back evil with evil. The measure of such a decision is the love of God who draws us to himself in spite of our sin. It has its perfect exemplar in the forgiveness of Christ, who on the Cross prayed: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Lk 23:34).

Forgiveness therefore has a divine source and criterion. This does not mean that its significance cannot also be grasped in the light of human reasoning; and this, in the first place, on the basis of what people experience when they do wrong. They experience their human weakness, and they want others to deal leniently with them. Why not therefore do towards others what we want them to do towards us? All human beings cherish the hope of being able to start all over again, and not remain for ever shut up in their own mistakes and guilt. They all want to raise their eyes to the future and to discover new possibilities of trust and commitment.

9. Forgiveness therefore, as a fully human act, is above all a personal initiative. But individuals are essentially social beings, situated within a pattern of relationships through which they express themselves in ways both good and bad. Consequently, society too is absolutely in need of forgiveness. Families, groups, societies, States and the international community itself need forgiveness in order to renew ties that have been sundered, go beyond sterile situations of mutual condemnation and overcome the temptation to discriminate against others without appeal. The ability to forgive lies at the very basis of the idea of a future society marked by justice and solidarity.

By contrast, the failure to forgive, especially when it serves to prolong conflict, is extremely costly in terms of human development. Resources are used for weapons rather than for development, peace and justice. What sufferings are inflicted on humanity because of the failure to reconcile! What delays in progress because of the failure to forgive! Peace is essential for development, but true peace is made possible only through forgiveness.

Forgiveness, the high road

10. Forgiveness is not a proposal that can be immediately understood or easily accepted; in many ways it is a paradoxical message. Forgiveness in fact always involves an apparent short-term loss for a real long-term gain. Violence is the exact opposite; opting as it does for an apparent short‑term gain, it involves a real and permanent loss. Forgiveness may seem like weakness, but it demands great spiritual strength and moral courage, both in granting it and in accepting it. It may seem in some way to diminish us, but in fact it leads us to a fuller and richer humanity, more radiant with the splendour of the Creator.

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#146022 - 03/18/07 10:47 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Still]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

That was exactly the fear that kept me from forgiving, as then I will have to do something about it, as it stood so strong within me, my abusers had moved on, and died probably leaving me stranded at that same spot, reliving it again and again.

It is my responsibility to pick my self up and start all over again.

For so many years, when I didn't forgive my abusers, I also feared if I did, that without I will loose all the anger and drown in my depression, and I did for a while. Though I revived myself and lived to tell the tale.

A good and gentle definition of forgiveness that I like the most is - "Giving up the hope that the past would be any different."

In other words it is - Accepting completely our past and be willing to say - Ok I accept that all this happened to me. But that was then, and this is now!

If need be, let's remove God, especially that useless One, from all this, then let's see without any 'divine/religious intervention', it is about our past that we have to accept and move by someday bringing ourselves to say that say - It's over...and then pick our up life once.

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~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146025 - 03/18/07 11:01 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
Nobbynobs Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Actually, in paragraphs 3 to 5 of article I posted, the Pope talks about the "human" side of forgiveness, which is why I posted it. It's pretty hard to argue against his case.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#146029 - 03/18/07 11:29 PM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Nobbynobs]
Morning Star Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Taking in the danger to sounding too Christian I loved Pope John IIs work , especially in the eastern Europe where he started a fresh political initiative in his homeland Poland, and more importantly for the way he lead all his life.

I love the Dalai Lama and a certain Mr. Jesus for same reasons, their life speaks of their teachings more potently than any of their words.

;\)

My many apologies to anyone who got perturbed or hurt by my words, I had no intention of hurting them. I was merely trying to throw in my two pennies, and trying to clarify my own doubts in the understanding of forgiveness, as it is a life long journey.

I know how sensitive this issue can be, I deal with it every day, so am asking for your forgiveness here.


_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#146030 - 03/19/07 12:11 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: Morning Star]
tartugas Offline
Board Member
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 513
Loc: NYC
I would personally like to thank everyone who has read and posted in this discussion. Forgiveness is, understandable a delicate topic with survivors, and I am proud that we have all managed to keep this dicussion open and positive, even with people who are on different sides of the issue.

I had no idea when I posted my first thoughts on this that it would so quickly become such a touchstone for so many. I hope that we can continue this, and all our dicussions in the like manner.

_________________________
"I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill.
I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self...."
Healing D.H. Lawrence

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#146033 - 03/19/07 01:07 AM Re: forgiveness vs. accountability [Re: tartugas]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6401
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Tartugas....you trying to stop this one?? DON'T!

I gotta tell you guys something. The girl who kept me alive when I was 12....she died on 9/11. Karen was the lead flight attendant on American Ftl 11. We grew up togehter...she knew what was happening to me. She kept me from the end!!

How do I forgive the Al Qaida who killed her if they dont ask for it and make things right???!!

Since my personal example (my rape) does not drive the point home...maybe this one will??? I dunno!!! I think there are certain elements of human survival. Maybe some people require some survival elemental traits...and others dont.

I just know that when I face an enemy that tries to do me in...I'm not gonna embrace him...I'm not gonna let my guard down...I'm clearly not inclined to forgive until they make things right. Some things can't be made right!!! EVER...

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